Why isn’t Wax incredibly strong?

[etmental]

Alright so first off i’m new here so hi! 

I’ll get right into it:

Brandon is pretty much a genius, he is so talented and one of the things that has always impressed me is the way he incorporates physics into his systems of magic, and not even just physics, but a detailed explanation and a set of logical rules that are paired with any magic system. It’s so refreshing.

There are of course a few things that I am confused by every once in a while though. 

Why, when Wax increases his weight, does he not become super strong?

And before you get confused since it is apparent that he does absolutely become strong anough to be essentially immune to the effects of his increased mass, here is what I mean. 

When Wax taps his weightmind his body becomes more sturday and strong enough to support all this new weight. When he makes himself heavier he can still walk around fine, and if he is strong enough to lift a 50 lb weight when he is at normal weight, he can do it just as easily when he is twice his weight. 

however

If Wax can do let’s say 100 push-ups normally, he is able to push around bad guys using that strength that he gets from doing push-ups. That is pretty straight forward. 

Because of the properties of storing weight  even if Wax was 5x heavier than usual, he could still do 100 push-ups because his strength is increased proportionally to his increase in weight. 

This is where I get confused. 

At 5x times his weight his arms(or pecs and triceps or whatever) are compensated by being 5x as strong. 

So...why when Wax punches somebody when he is tapping weight does he not hit THAT much harder?? 

PLUS! If he has more mass, due to the conservation of momentum, an arm that weighs 5x as much as a normal arm would obviously do a lot more damage when punching somebody than a regular arm. 

 

Let me me know what you guys think. I tried emailing Brandon about this a month or so back using his contact page from his website but never got a response (but I know he’s busy)

[Guest]

Hello and welcome! That's a good question... It's mostly in the Spiritual is my answer. The weight of the overall body, not mass. I don't know how to say it well... Head on down to the cosmere questions section, they're good at words  Have an upvote!

Update: I would refer you to the answer to this question. Obviously, not the same general question but the theory behind it: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9512

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by PrinceDusty

[Archer he/him]

Welcome! I don't know the answer to your question. My best guess is that his weight may increase but his mass does not. Here's link to the Q&A section Dusty mentioned, you could try your luck there. 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/forum/81-cosmere-qa/ 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Archer

[Zelly]

Welcome!

Based on your first post, I think you'll fit in just fine here.  

[etmental]

13 minutes ago, etmental said:

Alright so first off i’m new here so hi! 

I’ll get right into it:

Brandon is pretty much a genius, he is so talented and one of the things that has always impressed me is the way he incorporates physics into his systems of magic, and not even just physics, but a detailed explanation and a set of logical rules that are paired with any magic system. It’s so refreshing.

There are of course a few things that I am confused by every once in a while though. 

Why, when Wax increases his weight, does he not become super strong?

And before you get confused since it is apparent that he does absolutely become strong anough to be essentially immune to the effects of his increased mass, here is what I mean. 

When Wax taps his weightmind his body becomes more sturday and strong enough to support all this new weight. When he makes himself heavier he can still walk around fine, and if he is strong enough to lift a 50 lb weight when he is at normal weight, he can do it just as easily when he is twice his weight. 

however

If Wax can do let’s say 100 push-ups normally, he is able to push around bad guys using that strength that he gets from doing push-ups. That is pretty straight forward. 

Because of the properties of storing weight  even if Wax was 5x heavier than usual, he could still do 100 push-ups because his strength is increased proportionally to his increase in weight. 

This is where I get confused. 

At 5x times his weight his arms(or pecs and triceps or whatever) are compensated by being 5x as strong. 

So...why when Wax punches somebody when he is tapping weight does he not hit THAT much harder?? 

PLUS! If he has more mass, due to the conservation of momentum, an arm that weighs 5x as much as a normal arm would obviously do a lot more damage when punching somebody than a regular arm. 

 

Let me me know what you guys think. I tried emailing Brandon about this a month or so back using his contact page from his website but never got a response (but I know he’s busy)

Thanks PrinceDusty! 

Yeah i guess it would make sense that there would be holes in the laws of brandon’s magic. 

I still think there has got to be a better way to address this though, I mean, Brandon flat out talks about the conservation of momentum when Khriss asks Wax about if he speeds up when he is zippin through the air and suddenly decreases his weight. 

Then again, maybe I am being too critical about this 

 

[Mistspren she/her]

Welcome to the forum!

32 minutes ago, etmental said:

I still think there has got to be a better way to address this though, I mean, Brandon flat out talks about the conservation of momentum when Khriss asks Wax about if he speeds up when he is zippin through the air and suddenly decreases his weight.

If you look at this same exchange, Khriss also highlights red shift in speed bubbles, something Brandon talks about in the WoB Archer linked. I believe this is lampshading, a technique in writing where the author has the characters point out how strange something is to cover up and provide an excuse for why something does not function as expected. This can cover anything from plot holes to foreshadowing, but in this case I believe Brandon is just drawing attention to the otherworldly, spiritual aspect of the magic, and covering the slight inconsistencies with physics. It is fantasy, after all, and not everything has a 1:1 parallel with the real world.

Whatever the case, it’s good to have more observant people willing to question why things work in the Cosmere, and I’m sure you’ll fit right in here at the shard. Glad to have you. 

[Blazenella he/him]

Wow, that is a very good point. Just a suggestion, I would email this to Peter Ahlstrom rather than Brandon. Peter I found is more responsive, and is the person in charge of keeping things scientifically accurate. 

Welcome, and while you're at it, come and join the Ghostbloods! We're an organization of assassins, and do exactly what you would expect of, well, Ghostbloods. Join here or PM me directly if you're interested.

[Chaos he/him]

Hello, I am moving this topic to the Mistborn forum. Welcome!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 hours ago, etmental said:

Why, when Wax increases his weight, does he not become super strong?

For the same reason tapping heat doesn't make you heat-proof.

Quote

Thoughtful Spurts
If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson
As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

What this precisely means in physics terms, I'm not sure(I've got speculation, but that's if I can understand the related science). It's one of the spots where the magic directly interacts with physics, and that has a tendency to appear to break the rules. Spoiler for size:

Spoiler

Chapter 6
The Fight in the Ballroom

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

[Gasper he/him]

I get the distinct idea that storing weight is similar to using a basic lashing. And by that I mean changing the gravitational attraction of an object to manipulate its weight.

[Spoolofwhool]

32 minutes ago, Gasper said:

I get the distinct idea that storing weight is similar to using a basic lashing. And by that I mean changing the gravitational attraction of an object to manipulate its weight.

Bands of Mourning had Wax describe what was happening as a change in mass, due to him conserving momentum when he changed storing rate.

[etmental]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Bands of Mourning had Wax describe what was happening as a change in mass, due to him conserving momentum when he changed storing rate.

right, we know that this is a literal change in mass (or at least something that mimics it closely since Wax’s density doesn’t change). I feel like at the very least, if not giving him more strength than what the books show him capable of doing, Wax could squeeze more out of mass manipulation. Due to the conservation of momentum, Wax could achieve pretty much super speed while running as well as Pushing! 

If Wax was at 10x normal weight and was sprinting at 10 mph (for the sake of easy numbers) and then suddenly decreased his weight back to normal, the result should be a 10x increase in speed— if i’m doing my physics right. 

We see him manipulate his speed by changing his mass while he is pushing on metal, but he could do this much more drastically if he wanted to. 

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that suddenly changing his speed that much would be dangerous, and at some point air resistance would come into play, but i think this is the kind of thing we should seeabit more of in the future.

I think Wax might not need to be so reliant on his allomantic steel. 

[Gasper he/him]

That might contribute to his resonance. There was a passage in shadows of self that described him doing something like that. It mentioned something about him being able to control speed I think.

[etmental]

3 hours ago, Gasper said:

That might contribute to his resonance. There was a passage in shadows of self that described him doing something like that. It mentioned something about him being able to control speed I think.

i don’t remember that... do you know the chapter or have a quote? 

i just want to find where i missed it(:

[Spoolofwhool]

8 hours ago, etmental said:

right, we know that this is a literal change in mass (or at least something that mimics it closely since Wax’s density doesn’t change). I feel like at the very least, if not giving him more strength than what the books show him capable of doing, Wax could squeeze more out of mass manipulation. Due to the conservation of momentum, Wax could achieve pretty much super speed while running as well as Pushing! 

If Wax was at 10x normal weight and was sprinting at 10 mph (for the sake of easy numbers) and then suddenly decreased his weight back to normal, the result should be a 10x increase in speed— if i’m doing my physics right. 

We see him manipulate his speed by changing his mass while he is pushing on metal, but he could do this much more drastically if he wanted to. 

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that suddenly changing his speed that much would be dangerous, and at some point air resistance would come into play, but i think this is the kind of thing we should seeabit more of in the future.

I think Wax might not need to be so reliant on his allomantic steel. 

That could work, except that it would hard to move at a significantly high mass. Tapping iron changes the body so it doesn't destroy itself under its own weight, but it won't give the body the same strength that it has without tapping. A different method of propelling him could work however.