The Case of the Obsolete Gemheart

[Lightflame he/him]

Nice catch on those chapter titles there! Have you looked through all of the Death Rattles & chapter titles to see if there are more of them?

 

I will soon, but my brother's had my copy of WoR since Sunday. I'll get it back when he's done with it, but for now I have to work from memory.

[Asperity he/him]

My cover shows Kaladin's left hand in a fist with knuckles on the ground, like he's kneeling. I used that image as a visual for the scene where he lands on the ground quickly after rescuing Dalinar.

[Argent he/him]

I will soon, but my brother's had my copy of WoR since Sunday. I'll get it back when he's done with it, but for now I have to work from memory.

 

Do make a separate thread when you do, we are already derailing this one.

[Grunion]

I'd have to go with just the artist was trying to show Kaladin as "magic" on the cover. It's always looked like a puddle to me as well.

 

 

And for the death rattles, there's a thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6500-full-book-spoilers-fulfilled-death-rattles/ , though it hasn't been updated recently with any but the two mentioned in this thread.

[RIT]

No idea about the cover, but this

seems to indicate that the gemheart is significant.

Now I will acknowledge that that epigraph could be seen to refer to Kaladin and Adolin in the dueling arena, but I think it fits this better. There were 3 "dead men" in the arena, and no heart.

Actually I think that the heart has played it's part. If you remember that is when Dalinar first realizes what Kaladin is (or sees his "True Glory" you could say) if the bond hadn't been broken at the time this would have been the PERFECT time for Kaladin to reveal himself to Dalinar. That is what the Diagram was pointing to in my opinion.

Edited March 13, 2014 by RIT

[jayder]

I don't believe this image shows a gem heart on the ground.  It seems more like Kaladin's hand is resting or hovering over a Glyph or Rune on the ground. 

 

Since he has spoken the 3rd ideal, glyphs have formed around him. Once there was one with wings, another in the shape of a sword.

 

My interpretation of this cover at least would be: Kaladin landing from the sky with a spear in his hand and a glyph appearing on the ground where he lands. Very similar to when he lands and confronts szeth (although not with a shardblade, which could very possibly be left out on purpose for spoiler reasons)

 

 

 

[marianmi]

Looks to me it's kaladin getting light from stormwater. Which he did, during the fight with Szeth.

[Argent he/him]

We are in the Words of Radiance subforum, there is no reason to be coy with spoiler tags. But those glyphs, I imagined them much bigger than what we see on this cover. Also shaped like, you know, things. Sword, wings, things like that. Not blobs.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

We are in the Words of Radiance subforum, there is no reason to be coy with spoiler tags. But those glyphs, I imagined them much bigger than what we see on this cover. Also shaped like, you know, things. Sword, wings, things like that. Not blobs.

I've stopped trying. People just love to post the word "spoiler" and that is that..

[jayder]

 

We are in the Words of Radiance subforum, there is no reason to be coy with spoiler tags. But those glyphs, I imagined them much bigger than what we see on this cover. Also shaped like, you know, things. Sword, wings, things like that. Not blobs.

 

I've stopped trying. People just love to post the word "spoiler" and that is that..

 

Not knowing all the rules of this forum and not having posted here before, I was merely trying to be polite to people that may be reading certain topics without having read the whole book.  I didn't think one extra click would cause that much animosity.  

 

Blood Falcon I do agree I imagined them a bit bigger when I read, but they didn't mention a size, so the artist could have taken his liberty with it.  If it was much bigger it could have overshadowed the rest of the art so I can see why.  Also if you look in the blob, you can definitely see some sort of glyph or rune image.  I can't read it but it could be their symbol for anything.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Not knowing all the rules of this forum and not having posted here before, I was merely trying to be polite to people that may be reading certain topics without having read the whole book.  I didn't think one extra click would cause that much animosity.  

 

Blood Falcon I do agree I imagined them a bit bigger when I read, but they didn't mention a size, so the artist could have taken his liberty with it.  If it was much bigger it could have overshadowed the rest of the art so I can see why.  Also if you look in the blob, you can definitely see some sort of glyph or rune image.  I can't read it but it could be their symbol for anything.

 

Jayder you did well with the spoiler tags considering you didn't know. My comment was a reference to several other posts I made trying to inform people that we don't need to post spoiler warnings because all WOR content is fair game here. There are so many new accounts now that basically nobody knows that, and it is turning out to be a futile goal to inform them. I'm sure Argent didn't mean it personally either. 

The shape could be anything. Anything our hearts desire. I've decided recently that it is actually an image of Kaladin petting Pattern who is on the ground right there. His humming is sending out vibrations with the same wavelength as light, thus our cover art is born. Maybe I'll start a new thread with that as the premise.

[kaladamSB he/him]

I'm on team gemheart

However, I'm not sold on the fact that this is depicting the final fight scene, I just feel like it's the artist adding things from book one. Kaladin, his surgebinding ability, gemhearts, with a shattered plains backdrop. After reading book one the showdown between Szeth and Kaladin was bound to happen, so of course Szeth would have a spot on the cover as well as a teaser. Kaladin wouldn't have landed with a spear in his hands at that point either, and that headband is just plain ridiculous. It is a gemheart though, there isn't anything else it could really be IMO

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I'm on team gemheart

However, I'm not sold on the fact that this is depicting the final fight scene, I just feel like it's the artist adding things from book one. Kaladin, his surgebinding ability, gemhearts, with a shattered plains backdrop. After reading book one the showdown between Szeth and Kaladin was bound to happen, so of course Szeth would have a spot on the cover as well as a teaser. Kaladin wouldn't have landed with a spear in his hands at that point either, and that headband is just plain ridiculous. It is a gemheart though, there isn't anything else it could really be IMO

 

Of all this that is the most convincing counter argument to the scene setting to me. No Shardspear yet.

[Dalinaut]

I've always thought the cover was just Kaladin infusing the ground with stormlight.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I've always thought the cover was just Kaladin infusing the ground with stormlight.

See, now I am ready to just say "so what." Many people think it looks like a gemheart, many people think it looks like Stormlight on the ground. The point still stands: What happened?

 

In both scenarios Kaladin acquires an asset or tool and then, regardless of whether the cover shows it or not, he stops using them entirely! 

He learns he can put down Stormlight and tests it in like chapter 10 or something, then never uses it again ever. 

Lets add Stormlight puddle to the title in our minds and actually discuss something. Why did either option disappear? They both seemed fairly significant.

[kaladamSB he/him]

In regards to him pooling stormlight and then not usine it against Szeth, I just figure Szeth could just breathe it back in like Shallan does with Lightweaving. Kind of a pointless tool against a surgebinder, let alone one thats "kind of" from the same order

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

In regards to him pooling stormlight and then not usine it against Szeth, I just figure Szeth could just breathe it back in like Shallan does with Lightweaving. Kind of a pointless tool against a surgebinder, let alone one thats "kind of" from the same order

 

I would imagine you could only take in your own Stormlight. Isn't that the rule around taking in Breath as well in Warbreaker? 

[kaladamSB he/him]

I would imagine you could only take in your own Stormlight. Isn't that the rule around taking in Breath as well in Warbreaker?

Haven't read warbreaker yet. Solid counterpoint though

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Haven't read warbreaker yet. Solid counterpoint though

It might not be the same, but Brandon seems to be saying that there is a formula for how things work that is Cosmere-wide. Anyone know if that applies to this?

[Argent he/him]

Kaladin wouldn't know that. To him the fact that he and Szeth seem to share the same abilities would translate to "Szeth has the same abilities." He has no reason to believe the Assassin in White would be limited in the ways we know he is - and even if he suspects that they are different (because Syl tells him that no honorspren would bond with Szeth), he couldn't even begin to guess where those differences would manifest. For all he knows, Szeth might be more powerful because he doesn't have a spren to act as his moral compass.

 

That aside, Kaladin hasn't had much change to use that particular ability of his. Most of his fight against Szeth was spent in the air.

 

Furthermore, when Kaladin was practicing fighting against Sigzil, Rock, and Lopen, he pointed out that his abilities with Stormlight don't come as naturally to him as the spear does, he doesn't use them as instinctively, so he would need to practice. Well, he did practice the Basich Lashing to the point where he became confident with it, but he never really played with Reverse or Full. So when his powers were restored after speaking the Third Ideal, even though Lashing felt much more instinctive to him, Basic Lashing was what he had practiced the most, and so he stuck to that. Fighting a deadly assassin is really not the time to learn new skills...

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Kaladin wouldn't know that. To him the fact that he and Szeth seem to share the same abilities would translate to "Szeth has the same abilities." He has no reason to believe the Assassin in White would be limited in the ways we know he is - and even if he suspects that they are different (because Syl tells him that no honorspren would bond with Szeth), he couldn't even begin to guess where those differences would manifest. For all he knows, Szeth might be more powerful because he doesn't have a spren to act as his moral compass.

 

That aside, Kaladin hasn't had much change to use that particular ability of his. Most of his fight against Szeth was spent in the air.

 

Furthermore, when Kaladin was practicing fighting against Sigzil, Rock, and Lopen, he pointed out that his abilities with Stormlight don't come as naturally to him as the spear does, he doesn't use them as instinctively, so he would need to practice. Well, he did practice the Basich Lashing to the point where he became confident with it, but he never really played with Reverse or Full. So when his powers were restored after speaking the Third Ideal, even though Lashing felt much more instinctive to him, Basic Lashing was what he had practiced the most, and so he stuck to that. Fighting a deadly assassin is really not the time to learn new skills...

 

Sounds like a good explanation if you rationalize based on the character, but I'm talking about the author. It seems like the big battle would show Kaladin using all of his abilities to his advantage. Maybe even learning those things that he doesn't know through making those mistakes. Seems like a pretty obvious formula for characters learning their powers. Gemheart or Stormlight, it seems like those could be included in cool ways to bring the story together, but it seems like they were just put aside. Not consciously by Kaladin, but by Brandon.

[Argent he/him]

*sigh*

 

Your entire argument is based on the cover of the book. Would you argue that Brandon had a last-minute change of heart in The Way of Kings and decided to change both the Kholin colors from red to blue and Dalinar's glyph from khokh + linil to what looks like a larkin? Would you argue that prince Raoden was supposed to wear an oversized dress in the original version of Elantris because of the French cover? 

 

You fight my point of view on every turn, grasping for some, what, conspiracy? Flaw? Secret? Assume for a moment we had a completely different cover for Words of Radiance, say the image of Shallan from the endpages. Imagine you never saw that Kaladin picture. Would any of your arguments hold water then? 

 

Or skip this entire exercise and just tell me you base everything on the cover, old or new. Because then I'll be content to leave you alone, confident that you won't see my side of things because you believe the cover is much more literal than I do. 

 

P.S. I realize this reply sounds aggressive, but don't take it personally. I don't dislike you, but I am tired of the argument and being direct is the best way I know of getting to its core. I just need to know how you think about this, so I know whether to keep debating this with you (because it seems this thread is me vs. you, and then a bunch of other people on the side) or just let it drop.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

*sigh*

 

Your entire argument is based on the cover of the book. Would you argue that Brandon had a last-minute change of heart in The Way of Kings and decided to change both the Kholin colors from red to blue and Dalinar's glyph from khokh + linil to what looks like a larkin? Would you argue that prince Raoden was supposed to wear an oversized dress in the original version of Elantris because of the French cover? 

 

You fight my point of view on every turn, grasping for some, what, conspiracy? Flaw? Secret? Assume for a moment we had a completely different cover for Words of Radiance, say the image of Shallan from the endpages. Imagine you never saw that Kaladin picture. Would any of your arguments hold water then? 

 

Or skip this entire exercise and just tell me you base everything on the cover, old or new. Because then I'll be content to leave you alone, confident that you won't see my side of things because you believe the cover is much more literal than I do. 

 

P.S. I realize this reply sounds aggressive, but don't take it personally. I don't dislike you, but I am tired of the argument and being direct is the best way I know of getting to its core. I just need to know how you think about this, so I know whether to keep debating this with you (because it seems this thread is me vs. you, and then a bunch of other people on the side) or just let it drop.

Yes. I don't know if you missed a couple of the posts I wrote, but I was saying that the cover was another addition to the question. 

I'll state it one last time and then I don't plan on explaining it again: Kaladin learns a power: the ability to stick people to things. He practices in the chasms and finds it is incredibly useful and amplifies his fighting ability. Then he never uses it again. Why would he not even try?  I feel like it was written to be something that had a purpose. He never uses it once after chapter 10. Tell me why. That's my point. Literally nothing to do with the cover in there. 

The gemheart is of the same nature. They fight a chasmfeind. That sequence at least I can get behind. It was thrilling and brought Kaladin and Shallan close together. But then they end up killing it and removing the gemheart, an accomplishment which would earn them the gemheart itself, and we never see that again either! Kaladin knows his abilities are limited to the Stormlight he has, so why would he not carry a gem that is like a huge tank of it! He even runs out and, thank the Almighty for Teft and his lanterns, he comes across more with help. Yet again something that could have been used seems to have been left out of the equation and forgotten. 

 

The draft of the cover looks like it references the gemheart. It adds a point to either scenario where it looks like it was intended for one of those things to be utilized in that fight, but we see neither of them. The argument isn't based on the cover, it adds to it. You would think that in his direction, Brandon would specify what Kaladin would be doing. It's possible that's not the case. If the entire cover was removed from the equation I would still question why it wasn't used. But that piece takes it from a complaint about the book to a hopeful question about why one of those options might have conflicted enough to not be used. Otherwise, the fact is that Brandon could have left chapter 10 out of the book and saved that power to be revealed when it was actually needed. I don't want to leave it to the excuse that Kaladin needed to learn it then so he could use it an entire book later. 

Comprendes?

[Argent he/him]

Maybe Kaladin figuring out Full Lashing during his fight with Szeth would've felt like character progression to you. But the fact that a character can grow in a certain way, and the fact that Brandon can make it happen, don't mean that he should. You could make your Kaladin & Full Lashing argument for Shallan & Soulcasting and ask why she doesn't try it more often, but you don't. The way I see things, the current resolution of Kaladin's character arc is consistent, satisfactory, and well justified. The gemheart doesn't play a huge role, because it both makes sense for Kaladin and Shallan to take it from the chasmfiend, and to give it back to Dalinar (or Sebarial). The Full Lashing doesn't play a huge role, because making Kaladin use it skillfully in the end requires him have grown skilled with it just because of the Third Ideal. And I am quite satisfied with how both of those situations were handled.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Maybe Kaladin figuring out Full Lashing during his fight with Szeth would've felt like character progression to you. But the fact that a character can grow in a certain way, and the fact that Brandon can make it happen, don't mean that he should. You could make your Kaladin & Full Lashing argument for Shallan & Soulcasting and ask why she doesn't try it more often, but you don't. The way I see things, the current resolution of Kaladin's character arc is consistent, satisfactory, and well justified. The gemheart doesn't play a huge role, because it both makes sense for Kaladin and Shallan to take it from the chasmfiend, and to give it back to Dalinar (or Sebarial). The Full Lashing doesn't play a huge role, because making Kaladin use it skillfully in the end requires him have grown skilled with it just because of the Third Ideal. And I am quite satisfied with how both of those situations were handled.

 

Good to know. I am not satisfied there. On top of that, I did make the argument that I wish Shallan had used Soulcasting. I wrote a blog about how those things just fell off of the map and 90% of the book felt like a side step instead of progression. Shallan could have soulcast to help them out of the chasms plenty of times, but she pretends she can only use Illusions! WHY? Because Jasnah said not to use it and it is dangerous? It's not a logical move to abstain from practicing if Jasnah is gone. She will have to try on her own at some point. 

Not the point though. Kaladin's arc is well justified. Those details aren't though. I still haven't heard an explanation that makes sense for not including them. One man's opinion, but it was right there and it could have really made a difference.