[OB] Okay . . . FABRIALS.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

It's hinted at in Oathbringer that the big pillar of gemstones in the library is part of a fabrial, or that the city itself is a fabrial. Is it unlikely that the spren in this fabrial was the Sibling? We know that all fabrials require a spren, and the Sibling is just another spren. Indeed, Re-Shephir has once been trapped in a gemstone, and at the end of the book Nargaoul is in the gemstone called King's Drop, which is a gemstone that doesn't lose stormlight and which the unmade supposedly would be incapable of getting out of. This idea has got to have some measure of accuracy.

Also, the King's Drop brings up more questions:

• Must the gemstone be cut perfectly* for the spren inside to be incapable of escape, since other fabrials lose stormlight and their spren don't escape.  * cut perfectly, meaning stormlight doesn't leek from it
• So if it wasn't the cut that mattered (which is still under debate, by the way), was it the size of the gem Dalinar needed? Because there were plenty of other gems around to use.
•  What would a fabrial with that cut (and with Nargaoul inside) do? We know from Navani's notebook that the cut of the gem influences what the fabrial does.
• Are there multiple ways to cut a gem so that it doesn't leek?
• Could such a gem trap Odium without having to make an oathpact? 

And what does the Urithiru fabrial do anyway? The elevators seem to work independently of that. It's in the middle of the library, so that might be a clue.

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

2 hours ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Must the gemstone be cut perfectly* for the spren inside to be incapable of escape, since other fabrials lose stormlight and their spren don't escape.  * cut perfectly, meaning stormlight doesn't leek from it

I think the answer is yes. And I think the reason normal Spren don't escape but an Unmade might has to do with Sentience. (I have no evidence for that yet, but it makes sense)

3 hours ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Was it the size of the gem Dalinar needed? Because there were plenty of other gems around to use.

Bigger Gems can hold more Stormlight. It stands to reason that a bigger Gem could hold a bigger Spren.

2 hours ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

We know from Navani's notebook that the cut of the gem influences what the fabrial does.

It doesn't actually say that. Per the Notebook:

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The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it.

---

3 hours ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Could such a gem trap Odium without having to make an oathpact? 

The Cognitive Realm of Sel(which is 1.5 times as big as Earth) isn't big enough to contain two Shards. Half of that(b/c 2 Shards) is 0.75 times the size of Earth. I don't think they have any Gems lying around big enough to contain that much power.

As such, I'm gonna say it's not feasible. (I am not saying such an action is not possible though. Be aware of that distinction)

[Yezrien]

As for the Urithiru megafabrial, it might have something to do with Urithiru’s ability to be agriculturally self-sufficient. Perhaps it controls the local temperature, and uses something like progression to enhance crop yields. It might also enhance the city’s defenses in some unpredictably awesome way.

[Weltall]

Oathbringer plot details, you need to put a spoiler warning in the topic title.

3 hours ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Must the gemstone be cut perfectly* for the spren inside to be incapable of escape, since other fabrials lose stormlight and their spren don't escape.  * cut perfectly, meaning stormlight doesn't leek from it

So if it wasn't the cut that mattered (which is still under debate, by the way), was it the size of the gem Dalinar needed? Because there were plenty of other gems around to use.

It clearly can't just be size or it wouldn't have been so important for Dalinar to get that one specific stone (and for Team Odium to work so hard to secure it and keep it away from Dalinar). The Gem Archive epigraphs mention that the theory about imprisoning an Unmade require a 'special prison'. A later entry (in-book, we don't know when it was recorded relative to the earlier one) makes a point of mentioning the 'perfect gems' that the Elsecallers safeguard, the specific one described might even be the same gem that Dalinar used, going by a different name. In any event, Roshar has no shortage of large gems so it's clear that for a prison to qualify as 'special' it has to be something more than mere size. The flawlessness of the cut is the most obvious explanation since we already know that Dalinar needed a flawless stone to imprison Nergaoul and they're already known to have the unique property of perfectly holding Stormlight, so other unique properties aren't a stretch.

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Are there multiple ways to cut a gem so that it doesn't leek?

Probably, so long as the gemstone is flawless and cut perfectly the exact shape shouldn't matter.

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Could such a gem trap Odium without having to make an oathpact? 

Given the mind-blowing amount of Investiture that a Shard represents and the lack of a single Physical presence that stands for the entire entity which you could try to imprison, I'm thinking the answer is: No.

Also, we've seen what was necessary to imprison part of another Shard and the answer is: Another Shard. Pretty sure a shiny stone isn't gonna do the trick, no matter how large it is or how perfectly you cut it.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Weltall

[RShara she/her]

Reminder that Odium isn't trapped by the Oathpact, only the Fused are.  Odium's trapped by Honor and Cultivation.

[Narcoleptic Axolotl he/him]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:08 PM, Weltall said:

Given the mind-blowing amount of Investiture that a Shard represents . . .

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Shards themselves are Investiture. They're sentient beings, and Investiture is manifestations of their power.

On 3/22/2018 at 9:56 PM, RShara said:

Odium's trapped by Honor and Cultivation.

Are you 100% sure? Once again, if you have evidence to the contrary then bring it forward. If Dalinar is capable of setting Odium free by simply giving him permission, then clearly it's not the Oathpact that's keeping him there, since Dalinar isn't part of the Oathpact. But Honor is dead (but lives on in the hearts of men . . . Reminds me of Preservation.) and Cultivation, it doesn't seem to me like she's doing much to hinder Odium. Not actively, at least.

On 3/22/2018 at 7:08 PM, The One Who Connects said:

It doesn't actually say that. Per the Notebook: "The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it."

I always tell myself to learn from others' mistakes and not make assumptions. So my understanding of fabrials is: the type of gem/spren along with the shape of the metal surrounding it determines the function of the fabrial. The logic behind my claim was that, since the cut (in correspondence with the type of gem) determines what spren would be captured in it, and the type of spren in part determines what the fabrial will do, then the cut has an indirect affect on the function of the fabrial. It doesn't say it outright, but after a little reasoning it makes a great deal of sense. Thanks for calling out my unproven claim used as if it were fact, but after all, I was only asking a question. The wording of that particular question is kind of dumb, since I've just said that I think a fabrial's function is based on the kind of shape of metal and the kind of spren inside, not the cut. I should have said, What kind of fabrials could be made with Nergaoul as the spren?

 

I noticed you all had something to say about Odium being trapped in a gemstone. You provided convincing arguments, so here's a follow-up question: Do you think Odium could be neutralized like Ruin was when Sazed took both powers? I'm not asking if it's theoretically possible, I know that is, I'm asking if you think there's a realistic (in the cosmere sense, not IRL, obviously) series of events in which someone takes the powers of Odium and another Shard to balance them out.

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

Are you 100% sure? Once again, if you have evidence to the contrary then bring it forward. If Dalinar is capable of setting Odium free by simply giving him permission, then clearly it's not the Oathpact that's keeping him there, since Dalinar isn't part of the Oathpact. But Honor is dead (but lives on in the hearts of men . . . Reminds me of Preservation.) and Cultivation, it doesn't seem to me like she's doing much to hinder Odium. Not actively, at least.

 

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THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

 

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Gavin-son-son-Odegard [PENDING REVIEW]

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

source

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FirstSelector

Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got  Honor, to know how to fight back?

Brandon Sanderson

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

FirstSelector

And Cultivation, is she--

Brandon Sanderson

She is still there.

FirstSelector

Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before--

Brandon Sanderson

She is alive and kicking.

FirstSelector

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others.

source

 

[Calderis he/him]

35 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Shards themselves are Investiture. They're sentient beings, and Investiture is manifestations of their power.

The Shards are investiture. The sapient mind that controls that investiture is its Vessel. 

All investiture in the Cosmere was originally a part of Adonalsium, and at the Shattering all of the investiture was split between the Shards. 

The manifestations that we see, the powers themselves are uses of investiture. The Shards themselves are investiture, and their power is what fuels those uses. 

For example, all breath comes from Endowment. 

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emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

source

Breath is investiture bestowed by Endowment, and the Shard is so vast that worrying that breath given out upon the birth of Nalthians will diminish the power of the Shard is akin to worrying that humans being born will exhaust the carbon on earth. 

The metals in Allomancy act as a key to that allows Preservation's investiture to flow from the Shard to the user, and the mists are a physical manifestation of investiture that can be used in much the same way. Perpendicularities are liquid investiture composed of the Shards as well. Atium was literally the solidified "body" of Ruin. His power made solid. 

 

[Weltall]

31 minutes ago, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Shards themselves are Investiture. They're sentient beings, and Investiture is manifestations of their power.

The Shards are power, the Vessels are the beings controlling that power. Over time it's possible for the power of the Shard to override the personality of the Vessel (which is more or less what happened to Ruin) but there's still a distinction between the two. It's why the Shard Ruin didn't vanish when Ati was killed. Here's Brandon making it clear that the Shards are Investiture.

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So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. source

In addition to @RShara here are some more WoBs that Cultivation is actively working against Odium.

Odium has a fully living and fully aware Shard opposing him|.

Hoid calls Cultivation 'Slammer'.

Are you 100% sure? Once again, if you have evidence to the contrary then bring it forward. If Dalinar is capable of setting Odium free by simply giving him permission, then clearly it's not the Oathpact that's keeping him there, since Dalinar isn't part of the Oathpact. But Honor is dead (but lives on in the hearts of men . . . Reminds me of Preservation.) and Cultivation, it doesn't seem to me like she's doing much to hinder Odium. Not actively, at least.

Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, the largest single Splinter of Honor. Who also happens to have merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. And Bondsmiths are known to be able to do ridiculous things with their powers. It is entirely possible that he can 'speak for Honor' in terms of the Oathpact and release whatever influence Honor's power is continuing to exert on Odium. That might not be enough to let him leave the Rosharan System all on its own (and it's implied that he wouldn't want to just yet, he doesn't want to leave a potential threat at his back) but it would make it a lot easier for him.

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I noticed you all had something to say about Odium being trapped in a gemstone. You provided convincing arguments, so here's a follow-up question: Do you think Odium could be neutralized like Ruin was when Sazed took both powers? I'm not asking if it's theoretically possible, I know that is, I'm asking if you think there's a realistic (in the cosmere sense, not IRL, obviously) series of events in which someone takes the powers of Odium and another Shard to balance them out.

Technically Ruin isn't exactly 'neutralized', that aspect is still there and it's something that Sazed has to deal with as Harmony. For example, the reason harmonium is so unstable is because the two halves of his power don't mesh well. Brandon has stated that the powers are not combined and Sazed could split off some of Preservation or Ruin's power specifically. Brandon has also mentioned on multiple occasions (and Sazed says so himself in Bands of Mourning) that the two conflicting impulses make it hard for to act at times.

But yes, if someone were in a position to take up Odium and some other Shard, it's possible that the end result could be a great deal less destructive than Odium has been. This would of course depend on what the other Shard is, what sort of person the Vessel is and whether they could handle the tension between their two Intents.

[RShara she/her]

45 minutes ago, Weltall said:

 

Hoid calls Cultivation 'Slammer'.

Dang, that WoB is not in Arcanum and it needs to be!