How many spikes to take control of a person?

[MacThorstenson he/him]

Is there a set number of spikes that when inserted into a human, make it possible for an allomancer to take control of them with emotional allomancy?  For kollos its 4 and kandra 2, but those are both only usable by super powered allomancers, Lerasium mistborn, or vin. What would it take for a normal soother or rioter?

[RShara she/her]

I don't think it's as simple as number of spikes.  I mean, neither Vin nor Elend could control Inquisitors (though that might be because of Ruin controlling them). Like, kandra and koloss were built, specifically, by TLR to be controllable, iirc. Normal humans, whether turned into Inquisitors or not, seem to be different.

[Lord Meeker he/him]

I am not sure. But I know that in BoM Edwarn and Telsin had three each without being taken Harmony. So more than three for Harmony. I would think that it would be the same for Soothers and Rioters. The more spikes one would have the easier it would be to control a spiked person.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Ryker Sinclair

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I agree with Rshara: It's not that simple. Consider the mental fortitude aspect, which is what led to Ruin giving eleven extra spikes to his most stubborn pawn(Marsh). And even with 22 spikes, Marsh still had some control over his actions if Ruin was slightly distracted.

[Yata he/him]

The simple answer is 4 Spikes to control a person.

BUT that is only the minimal threeshold to have a chance to gain a Full control on an human based being. This would not allow you to control always someone, the target's will will come into play and requires more and more spike to obtain a control...But if you want an hard number, with three or less Spike even a god can't take direct control of an human being

[Wandering Investor]

As stated before, its a bit more complicated than a simple threshold. Firstly, it depends on the change the spike creates. A simple earring allows harmony to interact with people, but produces no change in the wearer and likely no/tiny hole in the soul, so not controlling. For Kandra, their spikes produce a huge change in the subject. Also consider the size, the kandra has two spikes, the koloss has 4, but how do the spikes relate in size? Second it depends on the ability of the controlee to resist. Marsh resisted for a second with 22 spikes. The kandra pulled their spikes out due to mental conditioning. The koloss are noted as having a lowered mental capacity, further increasing the amount of control, while a kandra will actively fight. As soon as Vin stopped trying, she lost control over her kandra. 

[Yata he/him]

16 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

As stated before, its a bit more complicated than a simple threshold. Firstly, it depends on the change the spike creates. A simple earring allows harmony to interact with people, but produces no change in the wearer and likely no/tiny hole in the soul, so not controlling. For Kandra, their spikes produce a huge change in the subject. Also consider the size, the kandra has two spikes, the koloss has 4, but how do the spikes relate in size?

This is false, the Hemalurgic charge is not meaningful for the Fault. A weakly charged spike and a overcharged spike will crack your soul (and allows Influence) in the same way (To say, 4 Pathism Earrings will allow Harmony to control you).

Of course the amount of implanted Spirit Web will be different but it's not relevant in the Fault's topic.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Yata

[Wandering Investor]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

This is false, the Hemalurgic charge is not meaningful for the Fault. A weakly charged spike and a overcharged spike will crack your soul (and allows Influence) in the same way (To say, 4 Pathism Earrings will allow Harmony to control you).

Of course the amount of implanted Spirit Web will be different but it's not relevant in the Fault's topic.

The original question was in regards to control, not influence, specifically from a human standpoint, not Harmony.

My comment was in regards to the size of the spike,not the charge. From earrings to inquisitor spikes, the changes they make in the user are very different and may result in larger holes in the spiritweb. 

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

The original question was in regards to control, not influence, specifically from a human standpoint, not Harmony.

Yes, but the point is made for us and confirmed in book by Suit. 

They are limited to only three blessings. There is no mention of size. Vin's earing would count as one. The fact that Wax's Pathian earing allows Harmony to communicate means it would count as one. 

With its a spike through the eye and out the back if the skull, it counts as a single "hole."

I agree with @Yata here, the size of the spike may change how large of a chunk of investiture is held within and therefore have an effect on the changes that it grants, but for the purposes of control/influence a spike is a spike.

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

When I was designing the Three Metallurgic Arts for these books, I knew that I wanted Hemalurgy to have a built in flaw. A flaw that, as a deconstructionalist might say, was created intentionally and relied upon by the very force hoping it won't exploit it.

It was important to me that Ruin eventually be brought down, in part, because of things he did or flaws in his power. Preservation could simply build into the humans he created an innate goodness, then expect them to do as he hoped that they would. Ruin had to be able to directly corrupt and influence people. He felt himself stronger because he could MAKE them do exactly as he wanted.

The problem is, for his magic to work–for him to exercise control over someone–he had to leave a hole, so to speak, that other people could wiggle through and use. And so the entire "control the koloss" plot sequence in Book Two was intended to set up Hemalurgy, and in a way predict Ruin's fall.

Now, the only problem in all of this (for the heroes, at least) is that when Ruin actually got free, he was so strong that it was all but impossible for anyone else to "get through" the holes that he had left in his Hemalurgists. But it wasn't impossible. In a way, the foreshadowing in this book was meant to lay the seed that Ruin's control of his minions is not absolute. And an individual who wanted to resist him had that potential.

source

I personally think that the way it works is this. Kandra are no longer a human species. The same flaw that makes them require hemalurgy to be sapient makes it so that they only need the two spikes to be controlled, which is unfortunate as they need to spikes to not be nuts. 

Koloss are still human, albeit heavily altered, and as such have the four spike threshold. 

I don't think it would "take more spikes" with willpower. I think that 4 spikes = control, at least to something as powerful as a Shard. But no matter how many spikes that control will never be absolute. It will always be something that can be resisted, moreso when the mind in control is careless or distracted. At the same time though, that will power is only a resistance. It won't prevent the control, just make it more difficult and allow moments of undirected action. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Calderis

[Wandering Investor]

@Calderis If the Set was shown to use different spikes(size, placement, or otherwise), then a blanket statement of 4 spikes would be fine. But we don't have enough details to show whether different spikes or spike placements have the same cracking effect on a soul.

[Yata he/him]

11 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

@Calderis If the Set was shown to use different spikes(size, placement, or otherwise), then a blanket statement of 4 spikes would be fine. But we don't have enough details to show whether different spikes or spike placements have the same cracking effect on a soul.

The Set isn't really dumb, I assume they tried to alter the Spikes to allow a less control.

Regardless, we actually have an instance of a Tiny and weak Spike used to take control by Hemalurgy's Fault.

The Hemalurgic bullet Wax shot to Bleeder was a weak Spike, melted and reforged multiple time....in a spectrum of charge, It was very low and of course It was very small... regardless It was enough to control Bleeder (that carried already another Spike).

Another point (but I tend to not use Era1 as proof), is the way of influence Ruin had in Spook and Vin. Very different Spikes' size and different degree of decay. But still no difference in how far Ruin could influence them

Edited March 16, 2018 by Yata

[Wandering Investor]

Ah, I had forgotten about the bullet stunt. I hadn't expected spikes to be equal in the affect they had on the soul as most systems we see have some nuance to them, but the bullet makes a good case for it.

[Calderis he/him]

14 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

Ah, I had forgotten about the bullet stunt. I hadn't expected spikes to be equal in the affect they had on the soul as most systems we see have some nuance to them, but the bullet makes a good case for it.

I think it's more about points of contact than level of augmentation. 

I mean, granting Allomancy/Feruchemy are augmenting just as much as a spike in a Koloss, it's just altering something that doesn't manifest Physically, unlike human traits. Those traits alter what defines the Physical aspect of a person. 

In addition to that, as much as I agree a larger spike is capable of holding more investiture (Feruchemy proves this), the way hemalurgy works you are targeting a specific portion of the spiritweb and ripping it off. So your taking the same amount regardless of size. 

So all of that added up, I believe it's less about augmentation, but more about the number of points that the invading consciousness can make contact with the "internal" portions of the spiritweb. Does that make sense? 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Calderis