Shattering WoB

[MountainKing]

Quote

Oversleep

Wait.

 

I'm confused.

 

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?

 

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

 

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

 

But now you're saying it didn't?

 

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

 

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What shard is this investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all investiture ever predates the shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and investiture are one thing.

I always imagine investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To investiture, Adonalsium's shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

source

Just a informative WoB on the Shattering and the nature of investiture. (Note: I didn't find this WoB)

Food for Thought: Why was all of the investiture assigned to one of the shards before they even split up?

[Leyrann]

Because the Shards are parts of Adonalsium, and Investiture is also part of Adonalsium. Basically, Adonalsium consisted of an infinite (or maybe almost infinite) amount of Investiture, and as he was Shattered, this Investiture got split into sixteen pieces. One could say that the Investiture is part of the Shard it's been assigned to. It's more of a "it can't not be assigned" than "it was assigned because XY".

[MountainKing]

The quote says that the investiture was already assigned to a part of Adonselium pre-shattering.

[Wandering Investor]

The investiture has always been assigned to the shards, but you're assuming the shards existed pre-shattering. Other WoB's indicate the investiture was assigned during the shattering. So basically, all investiture was connected to Adon, but after being shattered the investiture divided out to the shards, but it was never disconnected, if that makes sense.

[MountainKing]

What I'm saying was that investiture was assigned to only a portion of the Adon, and those portions later became shards.

[RShara she/her]

So this is how I see it.

Investiture existed in the cosmere and all of it was associated to Ady pre-Shattering.  However, even pre-Shattering, Ady had different....inclinations? uses? for his investiture.  So he purposed some of the investiture to...say, be on Roshar as part of the spren that he created. 

When he Shattered, the investiture that was on Roshar had to be associated to one of his pieces.  And the most similar was Cultivation.  Because when he used that investiture, his intention was to cultivate spren and all the wacky life that we see on Roshar.

 

So it's not that the investiture changed or deliberately assigned.  It just went with the new chunk of investiture that was most like what it already was.

[Confused]

In my recent “Pathways to Power” post, I address how and why Investiture is “assigned” to each Shard. To summarize:

1. Each Shard has its own “pathway to power.” (That’s how Marasi describes metal in BoM.) Each pathway is a unique medium for the transmission of magical energy. Water IMO is Autonomy’s pathway.

2. I suggest these pathways are slices of Adonalsium’s mind-soul Connection that “broke off” at the Shattering. My “Pathways” post says, “Adonalsium used these pathways when he made water, EMR, etc. The Shards inherit the Investiture in all three Realms that relates to their pathway.”

3. I compare Roshar and First of the Sun, two ocean planets:

On 2/27/2018 at 7:01 PM, Confused said:

I think the Urithiru basement icon of a figure with arms out-stretched above a blue disk refers to whatever consciousness raised the Rosharan continent from the water. Autonomy later does the same when its avatar raises the Pantheon. I suspect much of Autonomy’s “assigned Investiture” is found on Roshar.

This is why “Autonomy never ‘invested’ on First of the Sun.” That Shardworld’s oceans already give Autonomy the pathway it needs to raise the Pantheon. I believe this explains Brandon’s statement about Roshar:

3 hours ago, MountainKing said:

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "invested" there? No, no more than you're invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of mater and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

I think Autonomy accesses “a gathering of Investiture” on First of the Sun through its water pathway. I also think Brandon refers to water on Roshar as the “parts of what were Adonalsium [that] still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence).”

4. FWIW, @Oversleep, an “avatar” is a Sanskrit word for the incarnation of a god in mortal form. Neal Stephenson in his novel Snow Crash was the first to use “avatar” to describe a human’s online digital representation. I think Brandon refers to the Hindu definition, and Patji is Autonomy’s First of the Sun avatar.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Confused

[RShara she/her]

I have to disagree with the pathways idea.  In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance don't matter.  So I think that the Shard can access any of its power that it's aware of, regardless of where or when it's located.

[Confused]

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

I have to disagree with the pathways idea.  In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance don't matter.  So I think that the Shard can access any of its power that it's aware of, regardless of where or when it's located.

You're right about the Spiritual Realm. But "pathways" are the conduits to OTHER Realms. IMO, each Shard has its own conduit (its own means of magical energy transmission) to manifest its Spiritual Realm power in other Realms.

Brandon defines "innate Investiture" as the Investiture that turns a mortal into a “conduit to/from the Spiritual Realm.” I think pathways are the "conduits" between Realms.

[Zelly]

I agree it could likely be related to the Spiritual Realm's blended timelessness.   The investiture was always associated with a certain shard because it would be invested in that shard.  There's a weird connection between the past, present, and future.  Brandon's said it not "destiny", but there's a correlation.

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

FWIW, @Oversleep, an “avatar” is a Sanskrit word for the incarnation of a god in mortal form. Neal Stephenson in his novel Snow Crash was the first to use “avatar” to describe a human’s online digital representation. I think Brandon refers to the Hindu definition, and Patji is Autonomy’s First of the Sun avatar.

I know real world definitions. I was asking about what Shardic avatar is, exactly.

[Confused]

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I know real world definitions. I was asking about what Shardic avatar is, exactly.

My bad... I assume if a Shard is a god, and an avatar is a god's incarnation in the Physical Realm, then a Shardic avatar is a  Physical Realm "demi-god," a sentient Physical Realm being that wields the Shard's power on its behalf. Just a guess.

[Wandering Investor]

I have to agree with Rshara on the pathways. Its an interesting approach, but we have first person views from both Vin and Kelsier when wielding preservation. They used their power in a variety of ways, the only roadblocks being Shardic interference(Ruin), or actions that go against the Intent of the shard(although as shown by Vin, interpretation can vary as shown when she destroyed herself and Ruin as an act of preservation. They don't seem limited to certain pathways.

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I know real world definitions. I was asking about what Shardic avatar is, exactly.

This use of Avatar is specific to Autonomy. One of the Letters in OB is confirmed to be from her, specifically from the one that uses "we" a lot. Autonomy says "We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there. She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time." The use of "we" indicates that Autonomy speaks through multiple avatars, and is capable of making ones on various worlds. The nature of these avatars, such as are they all equal, are some greater than others, do they all serve a central personality or is it a collective, are unknown currently. I like the theory that Autonomy is driven to create autonomous personalities by Intent. There's also a theory that Autonomy creates autonomous minds in order to increase mental capacities to access greater amounts of her infinite power.

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

This use of Avatar is specific to Autonomy. One of the Letters in OB is confirmed to be from her, specifically from the one that uses "we" a lot. Autonomy says "We have claimed that world, and a new avatar of our being is beginning to manifest there. She is young yet, and--as a precaution--she has been instilled with an intense and overpowering dislike of you. This is all we will say at this time." The use of "we" indicates that Autonomy speaks through multiple avatars, and is capable of making ones on various worlds. The nature of these avatars, such as are they all equal, are some greater than others, do they all serve a central personality or is it a collective, are unknown currently. I like the theory that Autonomy is driven to create autonomous personalities by Intent. There's also a theory that Autonomy creates autonomous minds in order to increase mental capacities to access greater amounts of her infinite power.

I'm not sure why are you explaining all this to me. Perhaps you should go reread that WoB and see who it was that asked Brandon about all this...

4 hours ago, Confused said:

My bad... I assume if a Shard is a god, and an avatar is a god's incarnation in the Physical Realm, then a Shardic avatar is a  Physical Realm "demi-god," a sentient Physical Realm being that wields the Shard's power on its behalf. Just a guess.

I wouldn't be hanging up on that "avatar = physical incarnaction" definition too much. I'll try to explain it in my theory.

[Wandering Investor]

@Oversleep Because you asked the question... But you raise an interesting point, I wasn't paying enough attention at who I was talking to xD

[Confused]

20 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I wouldn't be hanging up on that "avatar = physical incarnaction" definition too much. I'll try to explain it in my theory.

I look forward to reading it.

On 3/8/2018 at 8:07 PM, Wandering Investor said:

I have to agree with Rshara on the pathways. Its an interesting approach, but we have first person views from both Vin and Kelsier when wielding preservation. They used their power in a variety of ways, the only roadblocks being Shardic interference(Ruin), or actions that go against the Intent of the shard(although as shown by Vin, interpretation can vary as shown when she destroyed herself and Ruin as an act of preservation. They don't seem limited to certain pathways.

Rather than conclude from a summary, you may want to look at the full post. (WARNING: I’m wordy…VERY wordy…) Brandon defines a Shard’s “role” by “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do.” He also says, “the powers…are not themselves of [any] Shard. They are simply tools.” IOW, a magic user can theoretically use any power to do anything regardless of magic system.

Shard “pathways to power” are conduits for summoning power – the road, not the “roadblock.” The idea and the term “pathway to power” come from this passage (BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359, emphasis added):

Quote

 

Then she burned her metals. All of them.

…

Blue lines exploded from her, first pointing at metals, then multiplying, changing, transforming. She saw through it all, everything in blue. There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced. The metals shone brilliantly, as if they were holes into someplace different. Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.

 

You may still disagree with the theory after reading it – many do – but at least you’ll understand it better. Here’s how my magic system model describes both Allomancy and Surgebinding (in response to @Calderis on another thread):

On 3/7/2018 at 10:22 AM, Confused said:

I agree with your descriptions except for the Roshar Focus. In my “Pathways to Power” post, I lay out a uniform magic-making model. I agree the magical steps occur “fast enough to be indistinguishable.” Here’s how Allomancy and Surgebinding fit my model, for comparison.

1. A magic user consumes a Catalyst.  Allomancers burn metals. Surgebinders infuse Stormlight. I think Khriss uses the word “Catalyst” because consuming the Catalyst starts the magic. Yes, I know it’s chemically incorrect.

2. The Catalyst activates each Shard’s unique pathway to the Spiritual Realm. Burning metal “causes a resonance” in what Marasi calls metal’s “pathway to power.” (BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359.) Metal is Preservation’s pathway IMO because of its static molecular structure. I think each Shard’s “pathway to power” is its unique medium for transmitting magical energy between a magic user and Spiritual Realm power – metal, water, electromagnetic radiation, etc.

Consuming infused Stormlight gives Surgebinders access to the Surges. My “Pathways” post says Honor’s pathway is the Surgebinder’s neural synapses. IMO, Honor gives his power by making a Cognitive Connection between a Radiant spren and the Surgebinder – the Nahel bond. Reinforcing Connections (like through oaths) strengthens the synaptic connections between the Surgebinder and his ideals (the Radiant spren), increasing his power.

3. The Spiritual Realm releases power down the pathway. “The power would pour in from Preservation,” or (for Surgebinders) Honor and/or Cultivation.

4. Each magic system’s Focus shapes the pathway to choose which power is released. Vin’s metal filters which power will Invest her. Radiant spren (IMO) filter which power Invests the Surgebinder. Not to re-open the debate, but to express my reason: Spren are power that personify an idea. Through them (as a Focus), the idea they personify manifests in the Physical Realm – fire, gravity, life, wind, etc. Just add a little Stormlight…

5. The Focused power Invests the magic user.

6. The magic user directs the Invested power for some magical effect.