Kaladin's will compared to Taln's

[Necromancer]

Interesting how Kaladin is seen as one of teh stronger people on Roshar, but he was willing to kill himself in the chasm at, maybe, 20 years old?

 

Taln went through 4,500 years of damnation before finally giving up.

 

Obviously Taln had a better reason to stay in, to keep away the desolation, but Kaladin had the reason of keeping bridge 4 alive to.

[name_here]

That would be why Taln is a legendary hero worshiped as a god and Kaladin is not.

[Necromancer]

That would be why Taln is a legendary hero worshiped as a god and Kaladin is not.

 

Kaladin was worshipped as a God in book one to those who knew of his abilities. Book two ended before showing it, but I'm sure he will be worshipped by men now. While Taln just sat in a room with no one knowing or believing him. Seems Kaladin is worshipped as a god and Taln is not.

 

Edit: Taln was referred to only as the madman (except by Amaram)

Edited March 11, 2014 by Necromancer

[Observer]

To be fair, I doubt many people could withstand the 10x torture combo Taln didn't have any idea would be hitting him, and doing that for a few thousand years. I seriously doubt anybody would be able to hold up properly under that.

[Devo]

What choice has Taln had in the matter? Presumably he has only recently returned from his 4500 years of torment, when has he even had a chance to give up? He may yet do it.

 

Also, Kaladin was facing the feeling that no matter what he did, it didn't help. Taln has the assurance that what he is doing actually matters.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

What choice has Taln had in the matter? Presumably he has only recently returned from his 4500 years of torment, when has he even had a chance to give up? He may yet do it.

 

Also, Kaladin was facing the feeling that no matter what he did, it didn't help. Taln has the assurance that what he is doing actually matters.

 

Compared to Talenel’Elin, Kaladin is pretty whiny. The worst thing that happens to him is that he gets a bit of a burn, and indirectly causes the death of a couple of people then goes to nearly commit suicide. IMO that makes him kind of pathetic.

 

Whereas Talenel’Elin survives a good 4500 years of continuous torture, knowing, I might add. that he is one a few things keeping the human race from near certain death. Not sure if he knows that he is doing it solo, but from reading the book I don't think he does.

 

[flinn]

 How old was Taln before he commited to becoming what he was? At what point did he decide he would be willing to take centuries of torture between desolations to help save humankind?

 

 With the knowledge Kaladin has now, if he was offered the same choice, wouldn't he make the same decision that Taln made?

[Lurthemir]

Kaladin is 27 in Earth years btw

[Cracknut]

Nah, Kaladin would break just like any other Heralds broke. He's our main hero at this point but I doubt Heralds were less honorable or heroic when they were becoming Heralds. Taln did withstand more then other Heralds. He didn't have choice in the matter of 4.500 years but he made his choice about one more 450 at least. He wouldn't have risked himself if he was ready to give up Oathpact. Of course Kaladin will raise higher then those characters at some point but its too early for that imo. 

You're assuming that Heralds were weak. They wouldn't be able to lead KR if they were weaker than Kaladin. Yes they gave up but they were there for millenniums. If Kaladin is already at the same level as Taln then this series should be a trilogy. 

Edited March 17, 2014 by 213

[WeiryWriter]

Kaladin is 27 in Earth years btw

Where do you get that figure? Kaladin is 20 by the end of The Way of Kings.  Rosharan years are equal to 1.1 Earth years, so Kaladin would be 22 in Earth years.

[Kessler]

Compared to Talenel’Elin, Kaladin is pretty whiny. The worst thing that happens to him is that he gets a bit of a burn, and indirectly causes the death of a couple of people then goes to nearly commit suicide. IMO that makes him kind of pathetic.

 

Whereas Talenel’Elin survives a good 4500 years of continuous torture, knowing, I might add. that he is one a few things keeping the human race from near certain death. Not sure if he knows that he is doing it solo, but from reading the book I don't think he does.

 

 

I don't think you can compare them like that. Talenel'Elin is practically an immortal demigod, who lived for thousands of years, was given great powers by the god and has responsibility to preserve all of mankind.

 

Kaladin is a slave without any power, who failed at everything he tried to accomplish, from protecting those he loved to trying to escape said slavery, put in a situation where he'll be certainly dead in a couple of months. Nothing depends on his action and his life and death are insignificant, decided on a whim of the lighteyes.   

 

Talenel'Elin's will at that point in time is certainly greater then Kaladin's - he lived longer and his choices determine the fate of the world (I think he can chose to end the suffering, but that would trigger Desolation). But can anybody else in the world be equal to his will and determination?  

[Cromptj]

Plus Taln's greatest quality is his determination.

[Falconite]

Plus Taln's greatest quality is his determination.

 

True, however Kaladin's greatest quality so far is the need to protect others...  If Kaladin was put in a position where the entire planet, including his family needed protecting - I'd say he'd last a fair while...  He'd whine and moan about it, but he'd take punishment like a champion to protect others...

 

[Kessler]

I agree - when he puts his situation as a chance to save other bridgemen he starts acting in a hopeless situation. Kaladin still got some depressive episodes, when he loses hope. I think they are connected to Weeping and there could be more to them. But by the second book he seems to be overcoming those and refusing to fall into despair. Give him time to grow and he'll be ready. Of course there's not much time left.  

[Lurthemir]

Where do you get that figure? Kaladin is 20 by the end of The Way of Kings.  Rosharan years are equal to 1.1 Earth years, so Kaladin would be 22 in Earth years.

 

One Rosharan month is 50 days, each year is made up of 10 months

 

50 x 10 = 500

 

So one Rosharan year is 500 days.

 

So divide one Rosharan year by one Earth year to get the ratio of Rosharan years to Earth years.

 

500/365.25 = 1.38 Earth years per one Rosharan year.

 

1.38 x 20 = 27.4 Earth years

 

Kaladin is at least 27.4 Earth Years old

 

Edit: Nevermind, Rosharan days are shorter.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Lurthemir

[Macen]

Compared to Talenel’Elin, Kaladin is pretty whiny. The worst thing that happens to him is that he gets a bit of a burn, and indirectly causes the death of a couple of people then goes to nearly commit suicide. IMO that makes him kind of pathetic.

 

Whereas Talenel’Elin survives a good 4500 years of continuous torture, knowing, I might add. that he is one a few things keeping the human race from near certain death. Not sure if he knows that he is doing it solo, but from reading the book I don't think he does.

 

I'm assuming this isn't sarcasm. If it isn't, then I completely and utterly disagree with you - on mostly everything the first paragraph. I'll agree that Kaladin is kind of whiney, he was as a child, and still is. But other than that - volunteering for service to protect your brother who is the most important person in the world to you, to watch him die (needlessly in your eyes) a few years later. Not letting that tear you down, instead, turning it into a need to protect those who can't protect themselves (all of the new recruits he pays to get in his squad) to then risk your life protecting the man who more or less ordered your brothers dead. Then, to have that man kill every other person you have tried to protect in place of your brother. Then, to be made a slave on top of that.

Then, to try to break out of slavery multiple times to have every person you swore to protect along the way get cut down.

Then to be stuck running a bridge where you are constantly watching people die, knowing that if you try to protect them - they will more than likely just end up dead like everyone else you have ever tried to protect. Then, coming to the realization that no matter what you do, everyone else dies, but somehow - you always live through it.

I don't know what kind of past you have, and I got lucky enough not to have any of my buddies die when I was overseas, but losing friends can destroy you, I've seen it happen.

I'm surprised Kaladin was able to muster the gumption to even attempt suicide. Judging him weak and or pathetic would be possibly the furthest stretch of the truth. I consider myself pretty good at looking at issues in my life objectivly, and can get through nearly everything with a joke and a smile. But, if I had to go through what he had...

If you were being sarcastic - please disregard.

 Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 67108864 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 490228016 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

[name_here]

Kaladin is certainly fairly mentally tough, but he's not anywhere near on the same level as Taln. Even before he wound up spending four and a half millennia getting tortured, he agreed to the Oathpact in the first place and was notable among the Heralds for his tendency to go directly into the worst part of the fighting, with death being non-permanent but fairly agonizing and cutting his torture break short. Now, his will apparently did break, but it took an order of magnitude longer than it had for the other Heralds, and while they've fallen pretty far they were great heroes in their own right once.

 

Which, again, is why Vorinism has enshrined him as a god with the aspect of determination.

[Kessler]

Taln knew that he would be saving humanity and countless lives by agreeing to Oathpact and then withstanding torture. All Kaladin knew that he'd be dead soon, painfully on the battlefield, doing nothing of importance, fighting for light eyes greed . I agree that Taln has strong willpower, but they are really in unequal positions.

Edit: I seem to have fixated on Kaladin before Bridge 4. As of end of WoR he is stronger, but certainly not up to Taln. His a determination is very strong when he fights for his ideals - beaten and powerless against Shardbearer strong.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Kessler

[Macen]

Yeah, I guess I got a little off topic with my post. I just don't think that Kaladin is weak in any regards. I would agree with Kessler though that their situations aren't exactly comparable. Most of book one Kaladin spent thinking that his sacrifices would end with everyone he tried to protect dying (the opposite of his intentions). While Taln knew that his sacrifice was for the betterment of the entire world.

I think Taln is a badass and probably much stronger of will than Kaladin, but it's also not like he chose to go the last 4500 years of torture alone... Anyways... I'm just reiterating points that have already been made.

They are both awesome. So is Lopen... I vote for The Lopen

[straits]

Willpower isn't exactly a magical, endless resource at people's disposal. I would say the entity that is Taln can not be compared to other personalities. Kaladin is far more human than Taln, and so far, a more realistic character (what with his dilemmas and failings in WoR).

[digitalbusker]

How many times did Taln almost give in but not? Oh, we don't know? So this whole conversation is Apples vs Oranges Part n: The Pulpening?

On a more serious note: I used to volunteer at a crisis hotline. Depression and suicidal thoughts are real things that real people really struggle with, and that does not make them weak. If you know someone that you suspect is contemplating suicide, don't be afraid to ask them about it directly, and do encourage them to seek help. In the US, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is 1-800-273-TALK (8255).