[OB] On Spren and Surges

[WitchRolina]

So, there's a few things I've been wondering ever since Way of Kings.  My original understanding was that all ten orders of Knight Radiant were of Honor, but further reading and Wyndel changed that for me - now it seems that there are 5 Honor-based and 5 Cultivation-based Knights - that is to say, 5 orders for spren of each shard.

But there are three shards on Roshar, not two.  This leads me to think that there are possibly 5 more orders, based on Odium-based spren, and that those five orders, and that there are five additional surges corresponding to it, for a total of 15 knights and 15 surges - and the double eye becomes a triple eye - or rather, the third eye is added.  Then the thing with Renarin happened.  At first, in Words of Radiance, I thought this evidence for the theory.  But then we saw his spren, and the concept of a "corrupted" knight order came into being... and my theory shifted again.  Or maybe perhaps now there's two competing theories.

Now I see an order as having a bond between two surges - one from Honor, and one from Cultivation.  Adding in Odium into the mix adds a third surge, possibly one of the hypothetical five from odium.  I also wonder if that the sibling of the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather became one of these corrupted spren, and that's why the Stormfather won't speak of it to Dalanar (well, that or it was betrayed in the Recreance).

What are y'alls thoughts on these two ideas?  On the Third Eye with 15 Orders, or corrupted orders having 3 surges?

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, WitchRolina said:

So, there's a few things I've been wondering ever since Way of Kings.  My original understanding was that all ten orders of Knight Radiant were of Honor, but further reading and Wyndel changed that for me - now it seems that there are 5 Honor-based and 5 Cultivation-based Knights - that is to say, 5 orders for spren of each shard.

Close, but not quite.  The Radiant spren exist on a spectrum between Honor and Cultivation (that is, they are a blend of both).  

 

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Questioner

Hi. I have two questions about the Cosmere. The first one is if a Radiant can have a bond with two spren, and the other one is if Truthwatcher spren are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so RAFO on if a Knight Radiant can have two spren. But the second question was, "Are spren of Cultivation?" One more time?

Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

Footnote: Brandon has previously said that it's theoretically possible to bond two spren. NOTE: This link needs to be updated once the correct entry has been added to Arcanum.
source

Edited March 2, 2018 by Scion of the Mists

[(^_^)]

1. There were 10 Heralds with 10 Honorblades, which all came from Honor, altough it is not impossible that Cultivation assissted with them. Nahel bonds and knights radiants all came to be because spren figured out how to mimic Herals powers. Even if we assume that voidspren also can somehow form nahel bond, such union has no 11th-15th Herald to mimic, nor cultivated Order history and traditions to follow.

 

2. Certain Surges being more "in domain" of one Shard than the other is likely, but assigning each order one from each Shard is not. Most "Honor'y" Surge would be Adhesion, binding things, what Honorspren do, what oaths do. Most "Cultivation'y" Surge is Progression, which generally deals with growing things (be it plants or missing body pieces). There are 3 Surges between them, odd number,  which makes it impossible to assign those surges "Honor'y" or "Cultivation'y" label in a way each order has access to both labels.

[WitchRolina]

My apologies for the late reply and res - I lost the ability to get online for a while and wasn't able to continue to the conversation.  Additonally, forgive the difficulties I have with communicating my ideas - communication is... difficult for me.  I've also thought on these some more since then, so my responses may be more in line with my new thoughts than my original post.  

First, regarding the ten orders and honorblades - given that there were Ten Metals right up until there weren't, is it possible that there are more than ten surges, but that there were only ten people to take up blades?  Perhaps that's why there are 10 surges instead of the more widespread number of 16.  Thus the reason that there may only be ten orders of knights may be more of one of imitation... but we're past that point.  The heralds can no longer be something held to be a model for the Knights due to their fall - the modern knights would have to move beyond that.  Part of that may be similar to what Vin and Elend did when trying to find new metals - perhaps the new knights might discover a new surge or combination of surges.  A Nahel bond may be formed that doesn't fit one of the orders of knights radiant - essentially forming a new, "eleventh order".  That's part of the inspiration behind the three eyes - five orders for each eye, and a central order being the Bondsmiths.  It makes sense to me, given that there can only be three bondsmiths, which was always peculiar to me.

The other question regarded corrupted orders.  Honor and Cultivation could be interpreted to be granting one of the surges to each of the knights through the bond, as spren are a combination of honor and cultivation's investiture, as Scion pointed out.  One possible interpretation is that Bondsmiths get Adhesion from honor, while Windrunners get Adhesion from Cultivation.  Under this interpretation, when a spren has been corrupted by Odium, it gains investiture from a third shard, thus the possibility of gaining a surge from Odium.  This would imply new resonances as well.

[Weltall]

Welcome (back) to the Shard!

13 minutes ago, WitchRolina said:

First, regarding the ten orders and honorblades - given that there were Ten Metals right up until there weren't, is it possible that there are more than ten surges, but that there were only ten people to take up blades?Perhaps that's why there are 10 surges instead of the more widespread number of 16.

Numbers in the Cosmere are associated with the planets rather than the Shards and the latter do not get to control how their magic manifests, it's an interaction between factors. Thus, since the entire Rosharan System (except Braize) has ten as an associated number, we can be pretty certain that there are exactly ten Surges, no more. We know for a fact that Honor did not have any control over the pairings of Surges for example, they're a natural function of the system. However, they don't always behave the same way for each Order that can access them, as explicitly stated by the Stormfather and confirmed by Brandon.

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Part of that may be similar to what Vin and Elend did when trying to find new metals - perhaps the new knights might discover a new surge or combination of surges.  A Nahel bond may be formed that doesn't fit one of the orders of knights radiant - essentially forming a new, "eleventh order".

Under this interpretation, when a spren has been corrupted by Odium, it gains investiture from a third shard, thus the possibility of gaining a surge from Odium.  This would imply new resonances as well.

New Surge combinations are theoretically possible but you'd need an Honorblade or a way to juggle two Nahel Bonds to make it work. New Surges entirely aren't.

Odium is still using the same fundamental forces that Honor and Cultivation are and the magic that the people of Ashyn once used was also drawing on the same elements as Surgebinding so we shouldn't expect there to be all-new 'Odium Surges', just slight spins on the existing ones with consequent spins on Resonances. For example, Renarin is seeing the future instead of the present due to Glys being corrupted.

[WitchRolina]

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New Surge combinations are theoretically possible but you'd need an Honorblade or a way to juggle two Nahel Bonds to make it work. New Surges entirely aren't.

Can you explain this statement?  My understanding is that the surges you get depend on the spren you bond.  I'd not be surprised if there's more than 10 spren types capable of forming a bond.  

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Odium is still using the same fundamental forces that Honor and Cultivation are and the magic that the people of Ashyn once used was also drawing on the same elements as Surgebinding so we shouldn't expect there to be all-new 'Odium Surges', just slight spins on the existing ones with consequent spins on Resonances. For example, Renarin is seeing the future instead of the present due to Glys being corrupted.

Which would fall more in line with the second theory about corrupted spren - the corruption from odium granting a third of the ten surges.

 

I'm not sure if I was clear on this or not - these two are not the same theory, but two very different theories.  Would it be better if I just created a different thread for each?

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, WitchRolina said:

Can you explain this statement?  My understanding is that the surges you get depend on the spren you bond.  I'd not be surprised if there's more than 10 spren types capable of forming a bond.  

You can gain access to more surges by getting another bind, be it a spren or an Honorblade. But the metals themselves are paired naturally and aren't coming in different pairings. 

6 minutes ago, WitchRolina said:

Which would fall more in line with the second theory about corrupted spren - the corruption from odium granting a third of the ten surges.

It's not a "different surge." it's the same surge expressed differently. Both are Illumination. And I personally don't believe Renarin has access to the normal form we see from Shallan. 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Calderis

[WitchRolina]

*sighs*

See, this is what I meant by having trouble with communicating my ideas.  Both of those statements sounds like they are in response to something I didn't say or ask about (from my perspective), meaning that I did so incorrectly.  Freaking autism...

 

First, the ten orders bind to specific spren - of which there are ten.  The question is whether or not there are more that can form the Nahel bond, and what surges they'd be able to access.  Metals were used as an example of this happening in the past in Sanderson's works, it's not meant to be a literal 1:1 comparison.  You're answering a question that was never meant to be asked.

Second, Surges have resonance between them.  Yes, there is an aspect of illumination to that.  It's possible that it's a resonance with another surge that allows it to see the future rather than merely the present.  Just because the third surge isn't blatantly used doesn't mean it's not there, and doesn't mean that what he's using could be a resonance.  

 

To be clear, both of these theories are specifically about how adding Odium into the surgebinding magic system affects it.  In both of my theories, it's an expansion, but in different ways.  It's not a comparison to the metallic arts nor how they interact with them, it's not asking how to attain a third bond or brainstorming new surges.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, WitchRolina said:

First, the ten orders bind to specific spren - of which there are ten.  The question is whether or not there are more that can form the Nahel bond

I think that the only sapient spren on Roshar are the Radient spren.  I think that the Radiant spren are the only Rosharan spren that will be bonded.  However, it's not just Rosharan spren that can be bonded.  Cognitive Shadows are also able to be bonded.  

 

See this S&A thread (Secret History Spoilers):

Edited July 13, 2018 by Scion of the Mists
Reworded to be more accurate

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Actually that's not true, the mistspren that were working on the honorspren ship are not associated with a Radiant order.

[+ElephantEarwax he/him]

6 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Actually that's not true, the mistspren that were working on the honorspren ship are not associated with a Radiant order.

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Pagerunner [PENDING REVIEW]

The mistspren, who crewed the Honorspren ship. Are they Radiant spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No they are not.

source

Here's your wob.

Edited July 13, 2018 by ElephantEarwax

[Weltall]

FYI, lesser spren can theoretically bond with humans. We have no idea what this would do though.

17 minutes ago, WitchRolina said:

First, the ten orders bind to specific spren - of which there are ten.  The question is whether or not there are more that can form the Nahel bond, and what surges they'd be able to access.  Metals were used as an example of this happening in the past in Sanderson's works, it's not meant to be a literal 1:1 comparison.  You're answering a question that was never meant to be asked.

Sorry if it was unclear to you, I didn't mean to imply that it was a literal comparison, just pointing out that the number of powers (in systems where that's a factor) are not within the control of the Shards. Therefore, there are only ten Surges but they may be expressed slightly differently depending on whether you're getting them from a typical Nahel Bond or if your spren has been touched by Sja-Anat. Or if you're a Fused, who are also clearly using the same Surges (enough that Szeth can counter them all based on his own experience) even if they're not operating in quite the same way as Radiant Surges.

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Second, Surges have resonance between them.  Yes, there is an aspect of illumination to that.  It's possible that it's a resonance with another surge that allows it to see the future rather than merely the present.  Just because the third surge isn't blatantly used doesn't mean it's not there, and doesn't mean that what he's using could be a resonance. 

Since what Renarin does is similar to what a Truthwatcher is 'supposed' to be able to do and we know that different Orders can express the Surges in slightly different ways while still drawing on the same fundamental power, it's far more likely that what we see with him is not a third Surge that was added to his powerset but the result of Odium's influence on one of his Surges and/or his Resonance.

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To be clear, both of these theories are specifically about how adding Odium into the surgebinding magic system affects it.  In both of my theories, it's an expansion, but in different ways.

We've seen this happen in Oathbringer at least with what Renarin does. He's accessing the same Surges as a 'normal' Truthwatcher but there's some weirdness owing to Glys being corrupted and so he's not working in exactly the same way, but he's still doing mostly the same things. We know from the gem archive that this has happened before (one of the gems is from a Truthwatcher who says they foresaw certain events but can't let the others hear them admit that) and that person must have been able to hide the changes among a society who knew what a Truthwatcher was 'supposed' to be able to do. Ergo, the changes are subtle.

Did I get all that across well enough and was that responding to your thoughts as they are in your head?