Exactness of the Immortal Words

[Argent he/him]

This is something that has been bothering me for a long time, and with Words of Radiance out, my... not concern, but quandary, let's say, has only grown. Specifically, I wonder how exact the Immortal Words, the Radiants' Ideals, have to be. The First Ideal, "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." sounds pretty solid, and I can't imagine it morphing into anything, even if it's related. But the others? Considering that at least one Order doesn't have set-in-stone rules (the Lightweavers who must speak Truths, not Ideals), is it wise to treat all of them the same way? Kaladin's Windrunner Ideals and Lift's "I will remember those who have been forgotten." could maybe work for all the members of their Orders, but Dalinar's? Shallan's?

 

Lastly, there is the issue of the Stormfather officially accepting Kaladin's and Dalinar's Second Ideals. Does he get input with the Orders whose spren are closer to Honor than to Cultivation? Does he even have a choice on the matter - can he deny a Radiant's upgrade even if he or she speaks the correct Words? And if so, we loop back around - are there specific Words each (or at least some) Order must speak, or are they tailored individually?

 

So let's take a stab at this. How do you think this will work? Do all of the Ideals offer some flexibility, or are there some that are set-in-stone, and some that are left to the Radiant's personality flaws?

[lordofsoup]

I think that the intent is what matters. When Kaladin said his third oath, it did not sound particularly graceful. Shallan has to speak truths, her truths are going to be different from the other Lightweavers, but will accomplish the same purpose. I don't see any reason why Kaladin's oaths would be any different.

[Jaconis]

I've been wondering this as well. The best I can up with is that, except for Lightweavers and possibly others we don't know about, they do have to be exact, 29th the reasoning being that they sort of pop into the person's head, and they just know them. While not definitive, I would think if only the sentiment of the oath mattered, such an emphasis wouldn't be placed on Kaladin being surprised that he knew the Words (always capitalized).

The Stormfather...maybe he's just the guardian of the gate so to speak. He knows all the Immortal Words, and only legit proclamations with proper intent get the go-ahead. This would make sense if he was one of the original Bondsmith spren, as their patron seemed to have been involved with putting the checks in place

[Scott]

Here's my opinion based on one and a half reads of the book  I think the oaths are specific to the individuals.  I believe every oath is related to the nature of the "broken soul" each radiant has.  Since the oaths are focused on the individual, so long as the individual chooses to abide by their words the Stormfather must accept them.

[aurik he/him]

The oaths are a necessary but not sufficient condition to advance.  Remember what Kaladin had to go through before the third Ideal came to him.  He needed to understand why that third Ideal was necessary and accept that while he may not LIKE or RESPECT Elhokar, his duty and the precepts of the first and second Ideals REQUIRED Kaladin to protect Elhokar.

[fffxc2]

This is pretty much a copy paste of a post of mine discussing this on reddit.

 

In regards to Dalinar's oaths, the stormfather said "These words are accepted". This phrasing leads me to think the the exact wording isn't what is important to the oath, the meaning is what really matters.

 

Meaning and the belief behind it also matches with this response in one of the Q&A's, answered in the affimative, though the second part might be intentinally distracting.

 

Q: Belief has had a lot to do with the Cosmere. (for example in Warbreaker. The appearances of the Returned had a lot to do with belief) Will Belief have a big part to play in The Stormlight archive?   
A: It already has. The two scholars measuring the spren.

Edited March 10, 2014 by fffxc2

[Aleksiel]

I think some Orders allow interpretations (like Lightweavers) and others (Windrunners) need exact phrasing. May be sprens of Honor accept only certain word and spren of Cultivation expect their binders (if that's the right word) to just guess the meaning. I'd say Skybreakers really must be strict about this.

[name_here]

The epigraphs are pretty clear that each order has varying levels of strictness in the Ideals.

[TomR]

It's actually a thought of Shallan's after she reads the in-book Words of Radiance:

 

"For example, each order had different Ideals, or standards, to determine advancement. Some were specific, others left to the interpretation of the spren." - WOR 938

[treblkickd he/him]

It's actually a thought of Shallan's after she reads the in-book Words of Radiance:

 

"For example, each order had different Ideals, or standards, to determine advancement. Some were specific, others left to the interpretation of the spren." - WOR 938

 

Agee with TomR, here! I thought this info from the in-world WoR, along with the various Nahel spren interactions that we get to see (Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar) made it pretty clear that there really aren't exact words. Rather what seems to matter is that a surgebinder progress (or, ahem, journey) along a path of person/emotional/moral growth. For example:

 

• With Lightweavers, this seems to involve accepting truths about oneself (basically a journey of self-discovery). So the ideals are really just roadsigns along a specific path.
• For Windrunners it seems to be about accepting the role of protecting as "right". Kaladin's 2nd ideal is to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and you could actually interpret his 3rd ideal as a reinforcement of the 2nd ideal (ie, protect those who cannot protect themselves, even if I hate them, so long as the protect is right). This fits pretty well, conceptually, with the roadsigns-along-a-specific-path image.

 

The "THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED" statements also strongly imply that it is the intent behind the Words that matter for progression. This is actually really sensible as it removes any potential linguistic/translation barriers to progressing as a KR. Requiring specific words requires a specific language for the ideals (just b/c translation is never a perfect 1-to-1 deal). Imagine how silly it would be to have a non-native speaker Radiant (of whatever language the ideals were created in) who was thinking and feeling the right things, but just kept mis-translating the phrase that they were trying to say and not progressing - that would be absurd.

 

The question that remains is, I think, who is the final arbiter of a given ideal. The Stormfather seems to be the authority over the ideals that Kaladin and Dalinar speak (or perhaps he's just sort of like the court-side announcer for Kaladin, and Syl is the one who gets to judge Kaladin's words?). In the case of Shallan it certainly seems like Pattern is the person (spren is people, yes?) who makes the call.

[Aleksiel]

I'd say the bonded spren is the one who accepts the words. In Kal's case Stormfather's acceptance wan't entirely needed ('your opinion matters not - syl'), but he was involved because Syl was currently... mm... sort of dead. He didn't interfere with Kal's second ideal.

[Argent he/him]

I am promoting discussion about details here, not asking for answers

[Seloun]

I think it is the Stormfather who accepts the Words, since I suspect initially they were directed to _Tanavast_, and the Stormfather is just the closest equivalent to them.

We know Surgebinding (in the form of the Nahel bond) existed before the KR, and one of the thing Ishar set up in forming the knights (or helping to form? Unclear how Nohadon/Ishar relates to KR founding) are apparently restrictions on how the bond could work:

 

 

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

 

I suspect that the Bondsmiths are sort of like judges; they're the ones that (ultimately) adjudicate the precepts and laws. That would explain why Dalinar is bound to the Stormfather - he essentially negotiates the Ideals with the Stormfather. Originally the Bondsmiths would have been linked directly to Tanavast, and that's why it's seditious to try to have a bunch of them running around.

[marianmi]

I think only the heralds were linked to Tanavast.

Like Honor said, the spren copied what he did with the Heralds. Bonding Tanavast would make one a Herald.

Thus, Bondsmiths were bonded to spren.

[Asperity he/him]

Wit also remarked that the Shards "here" (going with Roshar) are very specific.

[Bramble Thorn]

The sounds your mouth makes when you speak one of the Radiant Ideals are not set in stone, because Kaladin is not speaking them in Dawn Chant. Kaladin speaks Alethi. The Alethian language did not exist when the Knights Radiant and their Ideals came to be.
 
When Syl refuses to tell Kaladin what the other oaths are, she is not trolling him. The power is not in the words. The words are bubkis. Nohadon found them in a crackerjack box. the power is in YOU Lonestar Kaladin, in YOU!...
 
The words will not necessarily help to understand their meaning. When Kaladin was convinced it would be better for the kingdom if Elokar died, she told him point blank that what they were doing was wrong. Telling him the exact configuration of the oath he ended up speaking (“I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.”) would not have helped, because he was not convinced it was right.
 
I think what your intent is when you speak the oath matters. And that is what needs to be specific. A forumite received another Ideal from Brandon. "I will stand" http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6390-brandon-gave-me-an-unpublished-kr-ideal/ Which is incomplete. So is Dalinars "I will unite instead of divide." It does not matter. If the speakers intent matches the Ideal, the words are accepted.
 
P.S. Alex Trebek says the Judges Stormfather would also have considered "I will build up, and not tear down" and acceptable oath from Dalinar.

[Argent he/him]

Which would be in line with the widely accepted Principle of Intent.

[The Count he/him]

I think it may be broader even that this.

 

I think not only are the words not set in stone (it is the meaning / acceptance behind them) but that they are each individual to the KR progression.

 

I think that Kaladin had a specific problem with accepting protection for Lighteyes, so his 3rd oath was to acknowledge that those he hated were also worthy of protection.

 

I think the oaths are meant to symbolise personal progression along the divine attributes attributable to the order (protecting / leading in the case of Windrunners)

 

So Kaladins 3rd oath was about protecting because he was having such an issue with it.

 

Another Windrunner may have a 3rd oath about leading men to do what is right if that was what they were struggling with and represented progression for them.

 

Could be wrong but I think that each level of Oath gets more and more individually specific to each Windrunner.

Edited March 12, 2014 by The Count

[EvilKetchupCow he/him]

Stormfather probably only gives the "ok" on 1/3 of the words. There are 3 bondsmith spreen.