Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) So, I was reading The Way of Kings again after Oathbringer came out, and I was thinking, right before Szeth killed Gavilar, he said, “I...expected you...to come.” This caught hold in my mind, and I thought, hmmm. We know because of Amaram that Gavilar was a member of the Sons of Honor, and we know because of Jasnah’s flashback/prologue that Gavilar and Amaram were talking shortly before the Assassination. We also know that the Sons of Honor and the Ghostbloods are rivals. It is entirely possible that Amaram was bringing warning to Gavilar about an oncoming Assassination from the Ghostbloods. (We know how much they like that) Shortly before Szeth kills Gavilar, he asks who it was. Thaidakar, Restares, or Sadeas. Sadeas is a Highprince, and in Oathbringer Mraize says that the Ghostbloods don’t want to bring them in, because their purposes are “entirely their own.” Sadeas loved Gavilar, so he is out. That leaves Thaidakar and Restares. I have no idea who theese people are. I was thinking that they might be leaders of the Ghostbloods, or other members of the Sons of Honor, or that one of them might be Mraize’s real name. No idea. If any of you can offer any insight into this mangled semblance of a theory, that would be greatly appreciated. Edited February 18, 2018 by Cognitive Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cognitive Shadow said: We have no idea who theese people are. Restares is the current leader of the Sons of Honor, mentioned in book by Amaram in his letters and in the flashback when Kaladin's spear crew is killed. Thaidakar is the leader of the Ghostbloods, mentioned in book by Mraize as "Master Thaidakar" I believe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Ahh. That makes more sense. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 (edited) But, why would the leader of the Sons of Honor Assassinate one of their own members? The plot thickens. I understand the Ghostbloods, because they don’t want either side to gain a too quick advantage in the desolation, and the Sons of Honor were trying to start a desolation to restore the heralds, but why would they kill their own member? The Ghostbloods don’t even do that. They are fine with killing, but they are protective of their own. Edited February 18, 2018 by Cognitive Shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Cognitive Shadow said: But, why would the leader of the Sons of Honor Assassinate one of their own members? The plot thickens. I understand the Ghostbloods, because they don’t want either side to gain a too quick advantage in the desolation, and the Sons of Honor were trying to start a desolation to restore the heralds, but why would they kill their own member? The Ghostbloods don’t even do that. They are fine with killing, but they are protective of their own. Probably one of the normal reasons for backstabbing your BFFs: power-hunger or disagreements over important things. Or Gavilar just missed church once. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Cognitive Shadow said: Shortly before Szeth kills Gavilar, he asks who it was. Thaidakar, Restares, or Sadeas. Thaidakar: The Ghostbloods could want to take him out because he's a Son of Honor, and thus a rival. In this we agree. Restares: The Sons of Honor aren't exactly home to the most honorable people. Or.. maybe they operate like the Diagrammists, where individuals can act on their own initiatives when not on assignment. Gavilar's sudden treaty might not have been a sanctioned decision, but a spur of them moment thing while out on the Plains. He saw an opportunity to advance the plan(Eshonai's Prologue shows this), so he acted on his own. His motivations for the treaty may have been one of the things he was discussing with Amaram. Sadeas: With Gavilar gone, Sadeas and Dalinar both had a decent chunk of influence on young Elhokar. The "puppet-ruler" play is what Dalinar initially suspects happened to the "enfeebled" King Taravangian, so it's a play Gavilar couldn't outright dismiss. Perhaps they had been having arguments about how things were done in the kingdom, similar to Dalinar & Sadeas's interactions in WoK/WoR. Like Nohadon said: "We never lack men and women who wish to lead." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angsos Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Gavilar wasn't dressed for practice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Another question is, why would Gavilar EXPECT the leader of his organization to kill him? Was he hiding something? The black sphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 49 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Thaidakar: The Ghostbloods could want to take him out because he's a Son of Honor, and thus a rival. In this we agree. Restares: The Sons of Honor aren't exactly home to the most honorable people. Or.. maybe they operate like the Diagrammists, where individuals can act on their own initiatives when not on assignment. Gavilar's sudden treaty might not have been a sanctioned decision, but a spur of them moment thing while out on the Plains. He saw an opportunity to advance the plan(Eshonai's Prologue shows this), so he acted on his own. His motivations for the treaty may have been one of the things he was discussing with Amaram. Sadeas: With Gavilar gone, Sadeas and Dalinar both had a decent chunk of influence on young Elhokar. The "puppet-ruler" play is what Dalinar initially suspects happened to the "enfeebled" King Taravangian, so it's a play Gavilar couldn't outright dismiss. Perhaps they had been having arguments about how things were done in the kingdom, similar to Dalinar & Sadeas's interactions in WoK/WoR. Like Nohadon said: "We never lack men and women who wish to lead." This makes a little more sense, but Sadeas loved Gavilar, and fought for him, and considers both Elhokar and Dalinar to be “shadows of a man I loved” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalbusker Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Alethi, especially high ranking lighteyes, are crazy backstabby. The only reason Dalinar isn't on Gavilar's list is he wouldn't have contracted out the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 Just now, Cognitive Shadow said: This makes a little more sense, but Sadeas loved Gavilar, and fought for him, and considers both Elhokar and Dalinar to be “shadows of a man I loved” It's not like the ideas were right anyway. Gavilar leads a country he forcibly united through war and conquest, forced the Highprinces into line through rather.. brutal methods(Yenev), is a member of a secret society that's at war with another one, is trying to reawaken ancient gods and cause global catastrophe, etc... I think he's earned the right to be overly paranoid. It's also probably worth noting that he suggests Sadeas' name last. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 24 minutes ago, Cognitive Shadow said: Another question is, why would Gavilar EXPECT the leader of his organization to kill him? Was he hiding something? The black sphere? He didn't. He expected Thaidakar. When Szeth told him that he wasn't sent by Thaidakar, he threw out Restares and Sadeas names, probably frantically searching his mind for who could gain the most by his death. And those two make sense. Sadeas played the political game well, and was positioned highly. Restares rose to lead the Sons in Gavilar's absence. He didn't expect those two, but he did recognize that his death could advance their claims to power. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 1 hour ago, digitalbusker said: Alethi, especially high ranking lighteyes, are crazy backstabby. The only reason Dalinar isn't on Gavilar's list is he wouldn't have contracted out the job. While it is true that Dalinar would have done it himself, Remember that Dalinar vowed to leave Gavilar alone after he almost attacked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 18, 2018 Report Share Posted February 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cognitive Shadow said: While it is true that Dalinar would have done it himself, Remember that Dalinar vowed to leave Gavilar alone after he almost attacked him. And no one other than Dalinar knew that happened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow Posted February 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Calderis said: And no one other than Dalinar knew that happened. I suppose that’s true, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Sedeas is an amoral beast. He loved Gavilar, but like Dalinar Gavilar must have had doubts at time about what were his intentions. I am very curious about the Sons of Honour. Did they exist before the visions? How did this religious group feel about visions? I don't think we know enough to assume that Restares and Gavilar always saw eye to eye. Edited February 19, 2018 by Song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, Song said: How did this religious group feel about visions? It may be because he'd already gone through it with Gavilar(and he might not see eye to eye with the group either), but Amaram seemed to think that Dalinar's visions were legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 19, 2018 Report Share Posted February 19, 2018 20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: It may be because he'd already gone through it with Gavilar(and he might not see eye to eye with the group either), but Amaram seemed to think that Dalinar's visions were legit. They were also justified in the same way as Dalinar's as they're the same visions. He didn't see the future. He saw the past. And the one vision that is of the future is admittedly not fact, but of Tanavast's fears. It doesn't break the rules of Vorinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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