Swimmingly he/him Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 It occurs to me that NB will screw so bad with the Diagram 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duladen he/him Posted March 20, 2014 Report Share Posted March 20, 2014 I'm going to agree that Nightblood is on the power level of an Honorblade. In regards to Szeth using an Honorblade against Kaladin with a live Shardblade and it not looking more powerful: I think to see the true power of an Honorblade we will need to see it wielded by a Herald. Just like to see the true power of a Shardblade we needed to see one that was alive and not just revived. My guess: Revived Shardblade << Honorblade used by regular person < Live Shardblade wielded by Radiant << Honorblade wielded by Herald or Nightblood wielded by anyone. Remember: There were plenty of Desolations before the founding of the KR where I'm guessing the Heralds carried most of the fight against the Voidbringers. That's some serious power. Also, I realize that this kind of suggests that if a Herald wielded Nightblood, it would be crazy powerful. I don't know if that sits well, but I'm not sure how to reconcile it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levian Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I know it's already been asked but I'll ask it again. Does anybody have any thoughts on what the Honorblades do for the Heralds, if anything? From WoB it has been implied that the Heralds may or may not have originally been from Roshar, and may possibly have abilities from other shardworlds. Do you guys think that a Herald's blade gives him access to the same two Surges it gives everybody else? Do they naturally have those 2 Surges without the blades? Is it possible they can use ALL the Surges, and the blades are just blades to them? But if that were the case then a regular Shardblade would work just as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 I know it's already been asked but I'll ask it again. Does anybody have any thoughts on what the Honorblades do for the Heralds, if anything? From WoB it has been implied that the Heralds may or may not have originally been from Roshar, and may possibly have abilities from other shardworlds. Do you guys think that a Herald's blade gives him access to the same two Surges it gives everybody else? Do they naturally have those 2 Surges without the blades? Is it possible they can use ALL the Surges, and the blades are just blades to them? But if that were the case then a regular Shardblade would work just as well... They don't get the Surges without the Blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levian Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 They don't get the Surges without the Blades. Awesome, thanks Kurk! So this makes me wonder what the difference between somebody wielding an Honorblade and a Herald, other than their oaths is. It seems likely that they might have their own abilities possibly not native to Roshar, but why were they such a key instrument in winning - or surviving rather - the Desolations? Was is just their knowledge that brought back to mankind? It seems as if your average KR would be more powerful than a Herald just based off the general knowledge we have at the moment that Honorblade Surgebinding burns through Stormlight very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistdork she/her Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Awesome, thanks Kurk! So this makes me wonder what the difference between somebody wielding an Honorblade and a Herald, other than their oaths is. It seems likely that they might have their own abilities possibly not native to Roshar, but why were they such a key instrument in winning - or surviving rather - the Desolations? Was is just their knowledge that brought back to mankind? It seems as if your average KR would be more powerful than a Herald just based off the general knowledge we have at the moment that Honorblade Surgebinding burns through Stormlight very quickly. Just because the Heralds get the surges from wielding their individual blades doesn't mean that the blades aren't more powerful when a Herald holds it...when their oaths (to Honor) were in tact. Only Taln (if that is Taln) has kept those oaths. Considering how important keeping oaths/your word is on Roshar I kind of expect that their oathpact might have given them more power (it matches Honor's intent?)...but now I'm speculating, since we literally don't know enough to say either/or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levian Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Just because the Heralds get the surges from wielding their individual blades doesn't mean that the blades aren't more powerful when a Herald holds it...when their oaths (to Honor) were in tact. Only Taln (if that is Taln) has kept those oaths. Considering how important keeping oaths/your word is on Roshar I kind of expect that their oathpact might have given them more power (it matches Honor's intent?)...but now I'm speculating, since we literally don't know enough to say either/or... I'm actually wondering similar things myself. I could totally understand if the Heralds were so important just purely for them making the Oathpact, but there has to be some reason they would make such a difference directly in battle. Just from the WoB I saw confirming they can't surgebind without their blade, I was in serious doubt that an average person wielding an Honorblade would be as powerful as a Herald using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I think we can say this for certain: Something is different about the Heralds beyond just their weapons. For one thing, they seem to be functionally immortal. If just wielding an Honorblade did that, I suspect others would have found out at some point. I also agree with other people that an Honorblade must be more than what we have seen Szeth do with it. "Underpowered" is the only way to describe it's effects so far, even if it did grant him the powers of a Windrunner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) Here's the question no one's asked: if Nightblood is an equivalent weapon to an Honorblade on Roshar... can he bestow Surges? At the very least, he has to allow Szeth to absorb stormlight, or drawing Nightblood is going to end pretty quickly. Fun secondary question: how does Szeth not end up with Nightblood in his chest? Every other person of questionable morality we've seen around the sword has wanted to wield it, and that usually ends with Nightblood killing them. The exception is Denth, but he A) has a history with Nightblood and B: is probably MUCH stronger willed than Szeth in his current state. Edited March 27, 2014 by Vortaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalagmite Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Here's the question no one's asked: if Nightblood is an equivalent weapon to an Honorblade on Roshar... can he bestow Surges? At the very least, he has to allow Szeth to absorb stormlight, or drawing Nightblood is going to end pretty quickly. Fun secondary question: how does Szeth not end up with Nightblood in his chest? Every other person of questionable morality we've seen around the sword has wanted to wield it, and that usually ends with Nightblood killing them. The exception is Denth, but he A) has a history with Nightblood and B: is probably MUCH stronger willed than Szeth in his current state. Because at his core Szeth is a good person, just a good person who's done terrible things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Because at his core Szeth is a good person, just a good person who's done terrible things. I'd buy that right up to the point where he decides murdering Adolin is a good idea. Willingly murdering someone who is helpless to stop you is not exactly "good person" material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I'm actually wondering similar things myself. I could totally understand if the Heralds were so important just purely for them making the Oathpact, but there has to be some reason they would make such a difference directly in battle. Just from the WoB I saw confirming they can't surgebind without their blade, I was in serious doubt that an average person wielding an Honorblade would be as powerful as a Herald using it. I think its obvious why they make such a difference, they bring back each time forgotten knowlege, such as battle tactics vs the voidbringers for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Because you've gone axe-crazy, the precepts by which you accepted your torture denied, so you know that each and every death was not just your burden, but that you had no obligation to kill in the first place? Something in Szeth snapped. He doesn't blink so he won't hear screams. These are signs of a PROBLEM. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalagmite Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I'd buy that right up to the point where he decides murdering Adolin is a good idea. Willingly murdering someone who is helpless to stop you is not exactly "good person" material. He was insane at that point, he hated Adolin because he could not kill him (Szeth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Seeing how Szeth develops will be interesting, and more than a little nauseating. He's been abused in ways that I can barely imagine; on the other hand, I know of no moral system that wouldn't place at least some of the guilt on him. I will be interested to see where he goes, but I would not be surprised if he remains an antagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 He was insane at that point, he hated Adolin because he could not kill him (Szeth). So you're saying that an insane good person could wield Nightblood with no ill effects? Szeth doesn't get sick and doesn't start wielding Nightblood right away. The only other people we've seen with that level of resistance to it are Vasher and Denth, and I doubt Szeth had the mental discipline of either of them at the point he gets Nightblood. It's just an oddity, but it's an interesting one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I think the way Szeth develops will be in a positive direction as he comes to accept the ways of his Order of Knights Radiant. However he might suffer consequences (not just harm, but potential mental blocks in the way of speaking the Words or expressing the Ideals). Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Fire he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Among the same class of weapons as the Honorblades, certainly. But by definition, an Honorblade is forged with the powers of the Shard "Honor" and gifted by Tanavast himself to the heralds. (according to what we have been told) Nightblood was awakend by Shashara while of the ninth hightening and given 1000 Nalthian breaths. If anything Nightblood is an Endowment Blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_from_Warrenton he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Fun secondary question: how does Szeth not end up with Nightblood in his chest? Every other person of questionable morality we've seen around the sword has wanted to wield it, and that usually ends with Nightblood killing them. The exception is Denth, but he A) has a history with Nightblood and B: is probably MUCH stronger willed than Szeth in his current state. Maybe Nightblood would not judge Szeth as evil. It strikes me that Szeth is just an instrument for whoever holds control of him at the moment. Szeth even longs for somebody to kill him in order to stop the slaughter/havoc that he has been commanded to unleash. All in all, he seems more tragic than evil... Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) Because Szeth had no choice in what he did. Of course we know he did have a choice he could have said F you and your truthless at any point, but in his mind he didn't have a choice. He felt immense guilt for every single person he killed, he was depressed and couldn't close his eyes without seeing the people he had killed, he blinked as little as possible. The most evil thing he did was being willing to kill Adolin even though he didn't have to, this was only because he hated Adolin for not being able to kill him and free him from his hell. On top of that the guy who gave him nightblood let him die for a reason, so he could be reborn with a fresh slate, they always say if your heart stops and you are brought back to life then it is a second life and you are literally reborn sin free. Edited March 30, 2014 by Era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan he/him Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Because Szeth had no choice in what he did. Of course we know he did have a choice he could have said F you and your truthless at any point, but in his mind he didn't have a choice. He felt immense guilt for every single person he killed, he was depressed and couldn't close his eyes without seeing the people he had killed, he blinked as little as possible. The most evil thing he did was being willing to kill Adolin even though he didn't have to, this was only because he hated Adolin for not being able to kill him and free him from his hell. On top of that the guy who gave him nightblood let him die for a reason, so he could be reborn with a fresh slate, they always say if your heart stops and you are brought back to life then it is a second life and you are literally reborn sin free. If there's one thing Stormlight's shown us so far, it's that intentions aren't as important as what you do. Kaladin had good intentions for helping Moash. Sadeas had arguably good intentions (Dalinar is going insane, Elkohar is incredibly weak). Good intentions that use evil actions are poor, and Szeth valued his own soul more than the soul of everyone he destroyed. The fact is, I know people want to see him as a tragic figure, and to some degree he is, but he isn't a hero, he isn't a good person. He is, at best, a Kelsier analog, and frankly Kelsier was only a hero because what he was opposing was so much worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_from_Warrenton he/him Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 If there's one thing Stormlight's shown us so far, it's that intentions aren't as important as what you do. Kaladin had good intentions for helping Moash. Sadeas had arguably good intentions (Dalinar is going insane, Elkohar is incredibly weak). Good intentions that use evil actions are poor, and Szeth valued his own soul more than the soul of everyone he destroyed. The fact is, I know people want to see him as a tragic figure, and to some degree he is, but he isn't a hero, he isn't a good person. He is, at best, a Kelsier analog, and frankly Kelsier was only a hero because what he was opposing was so much worse. It seems to me that Szeth might be a Deontist. From some random online dictionary: Deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical position that judges the morality of an action based on the action's adherence to a rule or rules.[1] It is sometimes described as "duty" or "obligation" or "rule"-based ethics, because rules "bind you to your duty".[2] Deontological ethics is commonly contrasted to consequentialism[3] and virtue ethics. Deontological ethics is also contrasted to pragmatic ethics. He might see failure to fulfill his obligation as more of a "wrong" than killing all those innocent people. Maybe his backstory will illuminate how he came to this philosophy. It might be cultural, or it might have been instilled in him by some experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I wouldn't say that Szeth is 'anything' other than a necessary product of his experiences. While I do not absolve him in any way from the guilt, and in fact I would ladle more guilt on him from that fact that he more readily continued as he had been than confront the truth of the return of Surgebinders he saw with his own eyes, I would say that the defenses he developed, such as his anger at those too weak to stop him, and not blinking to stop the images of the horrors he carried out, I would say he was almost forced into these paths by the stress of the culture and expectation that was placed on him. He is a product of his culture's intrinsic dogma about the powerlessness of the Truthless to disobey their masters. On another note, I'm not sure what it is that they press on him would be the result of disobedience (something about his soul, maybe?), but I do not think that in anyone other than a member of their culture this would be sufficient reason to obey such orders, despite their own morality. So Szeth was delusional and while not entirely to blame for having his reason and logic quashed, definitely responsible for not resuming it after a certain point (way before he suspected Kaladin's abilities, and most certainly after that). I understand him as a character but I do not absolve him. Only he can do that, I feel, and I think that maybe he might. Odium's_Shard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalenthas Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 The Way of Kings implies that a Truthless who disobeys orders is annihilated upon death, and that nonexistence is worse than their version of Hell. It's an interesting take on religious dogma, as it produces undeniable evil not because the worshiper fears Hell, but because he views oblivion as worse. I can't comprehend that viewpoint, but I can also say that I know that there are people in this world who hold the same view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko he/him Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Lets all define evil? Now how about be we get Nalan (who has spent some time, presumably deep in conversation with Nightblood) to define it. Now lets give Nightblood to someone with the same moral set as Nalan. Lets watch the world burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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