[OB] Radiant Shardplate

[Hsien99]

Do people think the Radiants Shardplate gives them increased physical abilities? I personally don’t think it would increase physical strength any further than what they can already do. I think in bestows other advantages though armor protection for one Shardplate is the toughest stuff around period. The ability to summon it supposedly from anywhere which has several implications we know it is made from lesser spren, so once a knight gets his shard plate is that permanent meaning he summons it from Shadesmar each time which IMO where it would be kept when not being worn. The other idea is if lesser spren form each time to make it in which case the radiant could summon Shardplate and modify it a little like the Sly spear. Since the Shardplate glows and is made out of spren would that give them a unlimited supply of stormlight so Kaladin would always be 100% max out on stormlight, or does it act like a regulator so it helps reduce the stormlight required to perform the same feats. Kaladin has been using 15-20% more stormlight than is necessary to fly etc so the plate acts as a regulator cutting his consumption down drastically making him 100% more efficient. 

 

Do you think Radiants can give birth have a family etc?

Edited February 3, 2018 by Greywatch
Added the [OB] tag because it was missing, again.

[Calderis he/him]

Stormlight enhances strength minimally. I see no reason that Radiant plate would fail to grant a power it's unglowing, dormant form does. 

24 minutes ago, Hsien99 said:

we know it is made from lesser spren

We do not know this. 

25 minutes ago, Hsien99 said:

Do you think Radiants can give birth have a family etc?

Why couldn't they? 

[digitalbusker he/him]

1 hour ago, Hsien99 said:

Do you think Radiants can give birth have a family etc?

The Chapter 59 epigraph:

Quote "If this is to be permanent, then I wish to leave record of my husband and children. Wzmal, as good a man as any woman could dream of loving. Kmakra and Molinar, the true gemstones of my life." Obviously there's room for shenanigans here: adoption, becoming a Radiant after having kids, etc. But it seems like strong evidence that Radiants could raise families.

[RShara she/her]

Also the reason lighteyed people's eye colors don't change if they wield Shardblades or become Radiants is because of the lighteye sDNA that comes from having a Radiant in their family tree.

[Solant he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

2 hours ago, Hsien99 said:

Do you think Radiants can give birth have a family etc?

Why couldn't they? 

Lead them to the Dark Side, it will.

[Hsien99]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

Stormlight enhances strength minimally. I see no reason that Radiant plate would fail to grant a power it's unglowing, dormant form does. 

We do not know this. 

Why couldn't they? 

Kaladin in book one defeat Shallan brother in Shardplate. The dormant ones use gems powered with stormlight to mimic the strength the radiant must have had to wear such armor. Shardplate increases a wearers strength by 12-20 times but a full radiant is already that strong with stormlight which is why the can wear the armor in the first place. Bridge four did a physical comparison and a squire is 4 times stronger than a regular man infused with stormlight, so I see no reason Kaladin pretty much well on his way to become a full radiant with stormlight wouldn’t be around 12+ times stronger than a regular man. I think a radiant with full Shardplate if it increased their strength again IMO would be too OP if Kaladin could bench press/lift 230-240 then fully powered would be around 16 tons 12 times 230 for stormlight and 12 times again for Shardplate it’s too much. On the other hand if he just has the strength of 12-20 with no other increase it’s much more consistent with what we have seen out Shardplate so far 1.4-2.4 tons. As I’ve said people like Adolin have to use gem stones attached to the armor to feed it to mimic a Radiants strength so they can wear it. A Shardplate heals by absorbing stormlight so a radiant with one on will instantly start healing their armor it might be lighter than dormant Shardplate etc. There are other benefits than just increasing strength.

[Hsien99]

5 hours ago, digitalbusker said:

The Chapter 59 epigraph:

Obviously there's room for shenanigans here: adoption, becoming a Radiant after having kids, etc. But it seems like strong evidence that Radiants could raise families.

That’s what i was thinking having kids before they became Radiants. I was thinking maybe absorbing stormlight like they do makes them unable to children. I think having a family and kids would conflict with a lot of the oaths they take. Kaladin would focus mainly or solely on protecting his wife and kids and in turn let everyone else perish. A sky breaker who puts law before everything well what would happen if their son or daughter, husband or wife committed a crime they would be oath bound to prosecute or kill them. They might be able to have kids but it might be taboo like Jedi having kids. I will be a little disappointed if BS doesn’t  at least touched on some of these. Seems like a conflict of interest maybe they could have families but both husband and wife couldn’t be Radiants etc.

[RShara she/her]

Can you quote where the strength test happens? Because I don't recall it at all. Kaladin says specifically near the end of OB that stormlight doesn't grant markedly increased strength.

Shardplate is powered by stormlight from the Radiant when it's living.  It doesn't require extra strength.

Radiants can and have had lots of children as I showed with the lighteyed heritage.  On mobile so can't easily link it but there is a WoB about it.

Edited February 3, 2018 by RShara

[Hsien99]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Can you quote where the strength test happens? Because I don't recall it at all. Kaladin says specifically near the end of OB that stormlight doesn't grant markedly increased strength.

Shardplate is powered by stormlight from the Radiant when it's living.  It doesn't require extra strength.

Radiants can and have had lots of children as I showed with the lighteyed heritage.  On mobile so can't easily link it but there is a WoB about it.

I find the stormlight doesn’t have a greater effect on strength hard to believe unless stormlight has a different effects per order of Knight Radiants or BS is back peddling some what on their power. Your second comment about Shardplate is exactly what I said earlier, the shardplate that people like Adolin uses has to be infused with gem stones though to help mimic the strength a radiant had so they can wear it without being crushed, but shardplate doesn’t further increase a Knight Radiants strength beyond what Adolins armor would IMO. At one point in I think Words of Radiance Kaladin says he felt like he could have lifted the entire bridge four bridge by himself and Rock also says this in Oathbringer. It takes 6-10 men to lift it up and move with it. Dalinar who is in his late 50’s early 60’s managed to lift a stone tablet/doorframe which weighed at least 500 pounds and at most 2.5 tons that is 2.5 times his body weight much stronger but not anywhere near superhuman strength they seem to usually have. The 2.5 tons is a little too much though they would be about 25 times stronger than a normal man so a balanced amount again would be between 8-12 times their body weight. The quote on is on 465-466 it has to do with speed and stamina. Stormlight gave them enhanced speed Drehy and Skar set out together running a over a mile to the oathgate, but Skar at this point still didn’t know how to use stormlight. Drehy managed to run a (little) over a mile in under six minutes. It took Skar right at ten minutes and he was physical exhausted while Drehy wasn’t even breathing heavy. This would infer that stormlight increases their physical attributes by 3-4 times. Now I believed a some what logical assumption that since they are only squires  under Kaladin that Kaladin would get a larger benefit than they would from stormlight. I guess this doesn’t have to be absolutely true, but again I assumed as a Radiant said more oaths he became more powerful.  They would be able to hold more stormlight and be more efficient with it using less but still gaining the same or greater results than before. If Kaladin squires are three to four times stronger again I would think that would make him somewhere around 6-12 times stronger/faster. Maybe the reason he doesn’t see much benefit is becuase windrunner abilities lashings etc cost more stormlight so he looses it at a faster rate than others and can’t reap the full benefits of maximizing his strength. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Hsien99

[Calderis he/him]

Kaladin "felt like" he could have lifted the bridge himself. He couldn't have. We have never seen a single instance of stormlight granting massively increased strength. Speed, stamina, healing, yes. Not strength. 

[Yata he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin "felt like" he could have lifted the bridge himself. He couldn't have. We have never seen a single instance of stormlight granting massively increased strength. Speed, stamina, healing, yes. Not strength. 

Well we are talking of a dude Who could alter stuffs'weight XD 

Anyway returning to the serious side of the Force, yeah Stormlight doesn't boost extremely Strenght...sure the healing will allow a Radiant to performe at his peak for extended periods while regularry you will be' damaged by that but I believe It's mostly that and a bit of adrenalina Rush...nothing more.

[dashardie]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin "felt like" he could have lifted the bridge himself. He couldn't have. We have never seen a single instance of stormlight granting massively increased strength. Speed, stamina, healing, yes. Not strength. 

Spoiler

But what about the scene in Oathbringer where Dalinar rebuilds the temple in Thaylen city? There's no way he could have lifted such a massive stone on his own overhead without any kind of assistance - if Stormlight did not increase strength to a massive degree, I doubt Dalinar could have done it.

 

[Hsien99]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin "felt like" he could have lifted the bridge himself. He couldn't have. We have never seen a single instance of stormlight granting massively increased strength. Speed, stamina, healing, yes. Not strength. 

That still doesn’t explain away the fact Dalinar lifted a massive stone archway and set it up right again. It had to have weighted at least 800 pounds to 1 ton.  Kaladin also manages to kill Shallan brother with Shardplate a feat truly thought imposssible which I find hard to believe if their physical stats weren’t close to each.

[Calderis he/him]

23 minutes ago, dashardie said:

  Reveal hidden contents

But what about the scene in Oathbringer where Dalinar rebuilds the temple in Thaylen city? There's no way he could have lifted such a massive stone on his own overhead without any kind of assistance - if Stormlight did not increase strength to a massive degree, I doubt Dalinar could have done it.

 

I disagree. Dalinar is kind of a beast. And Rosharan gravity is 0.7 of ours. So take a the strongest person you know of, lifting the largest stone they can, and then increase the maximum mass of that stone by 30%. 

I also didn't say it doesn't increase strength at all, just not massively. A good way of thinking about it is like Yata said above. Because of the stamina and healing, you can run at adrenaline level strength that would normal hurt you by tearing your muscles, and it heals instantly without making you tired.

3 minutes ago, Hsien99 said:

That still doesn’t explain away the fact Dalinar lifted a massive stone archway and set it up right again. It had to have weighted at least 800 pounds to 1 ton.  Kaladin also manages to kill Shallan brother with Shardplate a feat truly thought imposssible which I find hard to believe if their physical stats weren’t close to each.

Again, factor for reduced gravity, and what Dalinar did is still impressive but not impossible. What did what Kaladin do have to do with strength? A spear tip through an eyeslit doesn't need strength. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Calderis

[Hsien99]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. Dalinar is kind of a beast. And Rosharan gravity is 0.7 of ours. So take a the strongest person you know of, lifting the largest stone they can, and then increase the maximum mass of that stone by 30%. 

I also didn't say it doesn't increase strength at all, just not massively. A good way of thinking about it is like Yata said above. Because of the stamina and healing, you can run at adrenaline level strength that would normal hurt you by tearing your muscles, and it heals instantly without making you tired.

Again, factor for reduced gravity, and what Dalinar did is still impressive but not impossible. What did what Kaladin do have to do with strength? A spear tip through an eyeslit doesn't need strength. 

Yeah but he needed the necessary speed and stamina reflexes to keep up with a shardbearer and if shardplate gives you times 10 to your physical attributes then Kaladin had to have at least 5 to 10 times increased physical abilities.  I do like the idea or avenue of adrenaline level strength but that is only a factor in dangerous situations not everyday. I can see a combination where Stormlight increases your physical attributes by 3-4 times regularly and when in battle adrenaline kicks in making them 15-20 times stronger on average. 

 

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, Hsien99 said:

Yeah but he needed the necessary speed and stamina reflexes to keep up with a shardbearer and if shardplate gives you times 10 to your physical attributes then Kaladin had to have at least 5 to 10 times increased physical abilities.  I do like the idea or avenue of adrenaline level strength but that is only a factor in dangerous situations not everyday. I can see a combination where Stormlight increases your physical attributes by 3-4 times regularly and when in battle adrenaline kicks in making them 15-20 times stronger on average. 

 

It's not as simple as saying "physical attributes" though, and that's the problem. If it were, then the fastest people would always be the strongest. 

Shardplate grants a lot of strength, as shown by the Hammers the Shardbearers use. When Dalinar was digging the latrine in tWoK, he easily lifts with one hand, a hammer that two laborers could barely lift together. 

The "speed" of Shardbearers, in my opinion, has more to do with increased stride length (as they're always described as massive and towering) and the force with which they can push off with each leg. It is a matter of the size and strength of plate. I don't think they swing their swords all that much faster than a normal person. 

Kaladin is fast, and with Stormlight he's faster. Even a little bit of it. When he fought Heleran, he couldn't do anything at all to the plate and just managed to dodge until he got in the strike through the eyeslit. Heleran was stronger due to the plate. Kaladin was faster. 

There's no one to one on "physical attributes" 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Calderis

[RShara she/her]

Dalinar shifted the stone a tiny bit at a time, and dislocated his joints doing it.  Also, the spren of the temple was helping him, and his surges were likely working on it as well, since the rest of the temple repaired itself without him touching it.

Quote

He took a deep breath, then heaved upward. Stone ground stone as he lifted the block toward the top of the doorway. He got it high enough, then positioned his hands immediately over his head. With a final push, shouting, he pressed with legs, back, and arms together, shoving the block upward with everything he had. Stormlight raged inside him, and his joints popped—then healed—as he inched the stone back into place above the doorway.

Quote

Sweat streaming across his face, he got the block close enough that it felt right again. Power flooded through his arms into it, then seeped across the stones.

The carvings popped back together.

The stone lintel in his hands lifted and settled into place. Light filled the cracks in the stones and knit them back together, and gloryspren burst around Dalinar’s head.

Yes, stormlight makes you a bit stronger.  But there's no evidence that it makes you...

Quote

Bridge four did a physical comparison and a squire is 4 times stronger than a regular man

I'd still like that citation, by the way.

 

Oh, and the strongest person I've known, who was the VP at my last job, could just about bench press a VW Bug.

Edited February 3, 2018 by RShara

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, RShara said:

Oh, and the strongest person I've known, who was the VP at my last job, could just about bench press a VW Bug.

Yeah, I had a buddy in NY early twenties who'd make bets at the bar for extra cash. 

He'd go out to the circle of drunken smokers and brag a bit about how strong he was, then when someone inevitably was like "I bet I'm stronger then you" he'd point at the nearest car and be like "bet I can lift that above my waist." 

They'd say he couldn't, he'd squat and grab the bumper and lift the car up to mid torso.

People are stronger than we give credit, Roshar has lower gravity, Dalinar is a beast... 

There's no reason to think Stormlight does anything crazy. 

[Hsien99]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's not as simple as saying "physical attributes" though, and that's the problem. If it were, then the fastest people would always be the strongest. 

Shardplate grants a lot of strength, as shown by the Hammers the Shardbearers use. When Dalinar was digging the latrine in tWoK, he easily lifts with one hand, a hammer that two laborers could barely lift together. 

The "speed" of Shardbearers, in my opinion, has more to do with increased stride length (as they're always described as massive and towering) and the force with which they can push off with each leg. It is a matter of the size and strength of plate. I don't think they swing their swords all that much faster than a normal person. 

Kaladin is fast, and with Stormlight he's faster. Even a little bit of it. When he fought Heleran, he couldn't do anything at all to the plate and just managed to dodge until he got in the strike through the eyeslit. Heleran was stronger due to the plate. Kaladin was faster. 

There's no one to one on "physical attributes" 

There fight could have more to do with Kaladin being a really good soldier with battle instincts and Heleran even with Shardplate and Shardblade being relatively inexperienced with fighting and using Shard artifacts. It could also be contributed to Kaladin not knowing what he was doing absorbing stormlight and  not knowing how powerful he was at the time. I hadn’t considered the actual size of the plate making people seem like giants a therefore being able to outpace regular men easliy.

Maybe stormlight makes them like Captain America it takes their strength, speed, stamina, reflexes to the peak so not superhuman but still superior to anyone else. No one or very few people can pick up 3 times their body weight over their heads so Kaladin if we say he weighs 190 pounds can pick up and hold at the absolute most 570 pounds. Kaladin who I would postulate as being 6.2-6.3 has a stride of about 2.15-2.30 feet per second. If we say a radiant with stormlight can either bring this stride to every half second or alternatively maintain their peak speed longer they would still end up being 40-60% faster maybe a little more like twice but not 3 times faster. So Kaladin or Shallan with ample stormlight would be able to lift around 3 times their body weight and be 40-80% faster on average than they were before. This makes them exceptional athletes being able to come in second place in several Olympic Games but not really superhuman as my previous hypothesis seemed to indicate. If Kaladin did have shardplate he would be 2-3 times stronger than Adolin with it and 40-60% faster, unless it’s not dependent on the wearer and it just increases everyone by a baseline amount so Shallan with it would be just as strong as Adolin.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Hsien99

[RShara she/her]

The thing is that you're making a lot of assumptions here, when Kaladin says flat out that stormlight doesn't increase strength very much and that Rock shouldn't have been able to shoot the giant bow (meant for someone wearing Shardplate) because of that.

If stormlight made someone strong enough to move in completely unpowered Shardplate, then Rock (or any other squire) would have no trouble using that bow and Kaladin wouldn't have been surprised.

Also if you could break your text into paragraphs, it would be a lot easier to read 

[Hsien99]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

The thing is that you're making a lot of assumptions here, when Kaladin says flat out that stormlight doesn't increase strength very much and that Rock shouldn't have been able to shoot the giant bow (meant for someone wearing Shardplate) because of that.

If stormlight made someone strong enough to move in completely unpowered Shardplate, then Rock (or any other squire) would have no trouble using that bow and Kaladin wouldn't have been surprised.

Also if you could break your text into paragraphs, it would be a lot easier to read 

Maybe Stormlight makes the person stronger or faster in accordance with how powerful they perceive themselves being just a thought. A normal person can pick up 50% of their body weight a body builder can pick up around at max that I’ve seen is 2.95 times their body weight. Shardplate increases their strength so they can lift/manipulate 7-10 times their body weight like Adolin who weighs around 180-200 pounds would at about average have strength equaling 1,260-1800 pounds. 

Now we know Rock is huge Kaladin in described as being pretty tall around 6.2 and he is several inches shorter than Rock so about 6.5. He is also very muscular built almost like a blacksmith and from carrying the bridge so if we weighed Rock he could most definitely be around 300 pounds so with stormlight he be right around 900 pounds in terms of strength. It only takes one arm to draw the bow string so Adolin at the 1260 would excert at most 630 pounds of force and Rock would be around 450 pounds. Kaladin could only excert 285 pounds at maximum. The bows were just meant to be used by someone with shardplate no normal man could ever hope to excert that much force and be usable in battle. A normal man can only excert at most around 100-160 pull on a bow some exceptional people can do 200 that’s it, so if they doubled that and made it 400 pound draw strength Kaladin still couldn’t do it with stormlight. It would be 3.10 times more powerful than the strongest regular bow.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Hsien99

[RShara she/her]

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing right now.

No one is arguing that Plate increases strength substantially.  But stormlight by itself doesn't.  It increases it a little bit, and heals strained muscles and dislocated bones, so you can take advantage of that strength better.  But I don't think it doubles your strength.  Rock is just really really strong naturally, and with the bit of a boost that stormlight+healing gave him, he was able to draw the bow.  A normal Radiant or squire wouldn't be able to no matter how much stormlight they're holding. 

Also, no, if you know how to use a bow, as Rock should, you do NOT use one arm to draw it.  You should use both arms and back muscles to properly draw a bow.

Edited February 3, 2018 by RShara

[StormingTexan he/him]

Another way to put this is why would a KR wear shardplate in the first place? It’s not for protection from normal foes or even a shardblade as they can heal instantly. It protects against voidbinding surges as we see at the tower battle but that’s pretty much the only benefit if you exclude enhanced strength. Also it’s biggest weakness as it apparently interferes with thier own surges. As we have seen in the visions KR wore plate while not fighting voidbringers (while fighting the Midnight Essence) it seems logical that it yields other advantages. I’d say increased strength just like it does for non KR wearers is a safe bet. It’s basically a Stormlight fueled exoskeleton. 

[Hsien99]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing right now.

No one is arguing that Plate increases strength substantially.  But stormlight by itself doesn't.  It increases it a little bit, and heals strained muscles and dislocated bones, so you can take advantage of that strength better.  But I don't think it doubles your strength.  Rock is just really really strong naturally, and with the bit of a boost that stormlight+healing gave him, he was able to draw the bow.  A normal Radiant or squire wouldn't be able to no matter how much stormlight they're holding. 

Also, no, if you know how to use a bow, as Rock should, you do NOT use one arm to draw it.  You should use both arms and back muscles to properly draw a bow.

I think we are coming to similar conclusions but our methodology is different we both say no normal Radiant or Squire could do what Rock could have done. I think we can both agree because of healing it drastically increases a persons stamina able to fight longer in battle. The part we differ on is the physical amplification of stormlight you seem to postulate that it increases strength and speed etc probably by about 20% maybe 30% a noticeable but not significant amount. I tend to think it makes them more like silver or bronze Olympic athletes very much still in the realm of humans but similar to Tarzan, Conan, Batman etc. 

Obviously you would use more than one arm to draw a bow back, your shoulder/back muscles are extremely important to draw the bow string back, and you have to use the other hand to help stabilize/hold/aim it while you fire. I may have become a little carried away earlier, but I didn’t think I needed to explicate the proper way of how to use a bow. I was trying to say only Rock was strong enough to pull that bow no one else becuase he had greater strength than anyone else outside of Shardplate.

[Calderis he/him]

What we've been disagreeing with from the beginning was your assertion that plate doesn't enhance Radiant strength because they already have it. 

The idea you just proposed is much more in line with the thinking we've been espousing, and I'm not clear at what point in this thread your thinking changed.