[OB] The Integral of Perfection Through Unity Theory

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

So this theory is the result of thoughts that coalesced while brainstorming in an excellent post started by @Firerust, and expanded on by @1stBondsmith and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine , about whether Adonalsium may have had a mandate of Unity. Some smart thoughts over there and definitely worth a look.

* "The Integral of Perfection through Unity Theory" where Adonalsium's current state is the sum of all states approaching infinity, used with permission from creator of smarter words, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine

So the quickie summary of this theory, which will likely be the perfect combination of way too long and ultimately wrong, goes like this:

     This Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of Vessels of Adonalsium, mirroring real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in an endless(and possibly beginning-less) cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That the Vessel of Adonalsium uses their time holding the power to shape and guide the Cosmere, in pursuit of becoming the perfect form of whatever it is that god would consider perfect. Eventually the Vessel reaches a plateau,  wherein the only way to evolve to a more perfect Adonalsium is by allowing it's power to be Shattered into the different Intents of god. Intents which change with every cycle, according to what is needed to Advance in godhood this time, but one that is always the Hate of god. Or Odium. Or whatever synonym you want. But not the passion of god, regardless of what Rayse thinks. The part of god that may be necessary, but without the context of the other aspects, is the ultimate destructive force.  The Odium that must be defeated by the rest, so Adonalsium can be ultimately be reformed into a more perfect version of itself which has had those aspects honed to to even finer point of perfection, allowing all of the aspects of god to further balance each other that much more perfectly. Another infinitesimal step down the path of godly evolution, stretching back indefinitely but only looking forward as far as the next cycle and the next contest. Because each cycle is a contest where the outcome is not guaranteed. Either the other Intents of god overcome the hate and Adonalsium reforms that much more perfect and continues the cycle of evolving until a another plateau is reached and another Shattering must occur...Or Odium prevails. Which becomes a more likely outcome every time that the cycle repeats, for as Adonalsium reforms every time as a more perfect version, so must his Odium be whenever he is Shattered.  In order to advance to a more perfect Adonalsium, a more perfect Odium must be defeated.

So now that we're through the 'short' summary, let's get to the why.

 But it's a how that has always stuck in my brain...How did Adonalsium not see it coming?

 

Quote

From Odium's conversation with Taravangian in Oathbringer:

Allow me to show you how far I see.

Golden words exploded outward from the ones Taravangian had written in the Diagram.  Millions of millions of golden letters burned into the air, extending into infinity. Each took one small element that Taravangian had written, and expanded upon it in volumes and volumes' worth of information.

Odium, Cultivation, Honor, Preservation, Ruin...We've seen these Shards show us taking "be prepared" to another level. While not omniscient, they have been shown to have the knowledge and foresight to carry out plans that stretch millennia while seeing the endless moves that could possibly oppose them. The ultimate chess masters...

But it the Shards and their plans are the ultimate chess masters, then what would that make Adonalsium? About 16x's more ultimate, I have to imagine Probably more so if you subscribe to the belief that the Whole of god would likely be more than the sum of their parts.  And if that's the case, I have to repeat my earlier question:

How could 16 beings, no matter how crafty,  trick and kill god without god knowing or at least knowing that it necessarily has to happen even if god couldn't  know exactly when or how ?

But we do know that Shattered, Adonalsium was. Was he totally surprised? Saw it coming but couldn't do anything to stop it? Saw it coming but didn't want to stop it? There's lots of possibilities, some more likely than others.

So I guess the question you have to start with is, Did Adonalsium want to be Shattered? I'll start with the possibilities under the general assumption most of us make and that which we've gotten no evidence to the contrary:

Adonalsium Did Not Want To Be Shattered

If Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered, then either:

1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and couldn't stop it. Or,

2. Adonalsium saw it coming, but couldn't stop it.

Now I think one of these 2 scenarios is what most of us think we are going to get whenever we get Dragonsteel(or whatever it called by then). The story of god not wanting to be killed but ultimately losing to our scrappy group of Shatterers, the Yolen16.  Now I find scenario #1 more unlikely, given my previously stated disbelief in anyone or any group being able to sneak up on/trick god. And seriously, what kind of god would Adonalsium be if he just let someone sneak up and murder him?

So if Adonalsium didn't want to be Shattered, I think it’s likely scenario #2...He saw it coming to some extent but the Yolen 16 were able to kill him anyway. Which is totally plausible. I think when we finally see Yolen in the days of the Shattering, we are going to see a planet further along in the fusion of magic and technology then we've seen thus far in the Cosmere. Seriously, Yolen's going to be nuts, right? And given that likely high level of magical advancement, along with the involvement of one Master Hoid, I'll definitely buy the Yolen16 being able to come up with an intricate plan to trap and murder god, even if he sees them coming. Perhaps they will be able to find and exploit some blind spot in Adonalsium’s knowledge, much like we are assuming Odium's blind spot in regards to Renarin will be exploited. Maybe it’s just that Hoid and Rayse are better at coming up with and executing plans than the combined strength of a dozen Kelsier's plus Hannibal from the A-Team, and we’ll see their master stroke that will put Adonalsium in a corner from which he cannot escape Shattering. To be clear, I’d be fine with any and all of that

So those are the general scenarios if we assume that Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered. But what if he did? 

Adonalsium Wanted to Be Shattered

1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and didn't try to stop it

2. Adonalsium saw it coming, knew it needed to happen , went along with it.

3. Adonalsium wanted it to happen and manipulated the Yolen16 to do so.

4. Adonalsium wanted it to happen but would still fight his demise as hard as possible until champions are able to rise up and best him.(The Talladega Nights Corollary)

So in this theory the "why" of Adonalsium wanting to Shattered, is answered...To evolve to something better, even if it is infinitesimally small improvement. I do think it’s important to understand that the amount of improvement doesn't really matter in this system because I find it unlikely that this is a 'finish line' situation in which there is one perfect form of god and that once it is attained, the cycle will stop. I believe it to be a matter of continually striving towards a goal which is unreachable. A finish line you can forever move ever closer to but can never actually cross, just as you can never actually achieve perfection, but you can strive for it. The value lies in the struggle for, not the achievement of.

But back to the why...Why would Shattering the power of god, make god better?

Quote

As @hoiditthroughthegrapevine said,

We know from some WoBs that Adonalsium could have shattered differently, maybe the way he shattered was precisely in line with the Intents of the Shatterers, and that each piece of himself was made separate to experience his own qualities in a purer form, so that when he comes back together he will be wiser.

Quote

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)
 

 

Play/PausPaladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]

Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I will RAFO that one.

Paladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]

Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways.

Quote

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
 

 

Play/PauEric

If Adonalsium Shattered with intent, would he always Shatter with the same Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

It is plausible that it could've gone a different way.

Quote

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)
 

stormlightfan70

We know it has been stated that adanalisum could have been shattered into 16 different intents. We also know there is a force out there opposing adanalsium. Did it shatter into those 16 intents because it believed that was the best way to defend against this said force?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

So Adonalsium could've been Shattered differently...Which means there's different possible Intents...Which means there's probably a whole lot of different possible Intents...I mean come on, its god. Lots of layers there  So what if the only way to improve on the whole of god is by improving the pieces, which in turn can only be improved by being separated into their current, purest form?  A singe Intent of god, free to act in accordance of their purest Intent, without the context of the whole holding them back. Which may lead to a better or wiser Shard of god. Or not. I think it's important to remember that Intents(with the exception of Odium, which I believe to be necessarily "bad" but also a necessary part of a  "perfect" god) are not necessarily "good" or "bad". They are their Intent. Just because an Intent sounds good, like Honor or Preservation, doesn't mean it necessarily has to be so. Or if it even can be, as it becomes more of a pure force over time. That’s the implication we seem to get over and over...Taken to their outer extremities, without the context of other Intents, ALL of the Shards would ultimately force an existence which most would not find palatable to exist in, or even could exist in.  Does anyone want to want to live on the Scadrial that Ruin describes, in which Preservation is the ultimate power? Or the Roshar where Honor has been taken to its maximal limits? Or Cultivation's?

That is the theme that runs through all we've learned about Shards and their nature. That without being part of the whole, All of the Shards are ultimately bad for the Cosmere. Vessels hold powers that will eventually consume them into a pure force. I say that NO Shard would ever be able to "keep to themselves" in the Cosmere. Eventually their Intent would consume them forcing them to spread. Imagine the same Cosmere, same events, just without Odium.  Could Devotion and Dominion continue to coexist on Sel forever? Or would their Intents eventually push them until one or both was destroyed? Say it's Devotion who "wins", splintering Dominion and ruling the whole planet guided by the extreme tenets of all things devotion. Eventually turning Sel into an absolute miserable place to live. Shard Objective completed. Sel, check. Do we think Devotion will just stay there?  Or will the force of the Intent not allow it? I do not believe that Intents ever allow for "that's enough". I believe on a long enough timeline, all Shards of all Intents will eventually try to consume the Cosmere with their Intent, regardless of the other Shards in their way

Now all of that was a long way of saying that the 'correct' state of the Cosmere is with an intact Adonalsium. That no matter how Shattered, as long as god is in pieces, the Cosmere is moving towards destruction, while at the same time moving towards the higher state of perfection which would be gained by a reformed Adonalsium. So, back to this...

Quote

Adonalsium Wanted to Be Shattered

1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and didn't try to stop it

2. Adonalsium saw it coming, knew it needed to happen , went along with it.

3. Adonalsium wanted it to happen and manipulated the Yolen16 to do so.

4. Adonalsium wanted it to happen but would still fight his demise as hard as possible until champions are able to rise up and best him.(The Talladega Nights Corollary)

#1: I generally find this unlikely..Almost. Not to beat a dead chull, but I find most scenarios where Adonalsium is caught completely unaware, unlikely. But, not exactly. Adonalsium can need to evolve without knowing it. And even though it's god we're talking about, that doesn't mean god has to realize that his current state is not the ultimate state.

This scenario would really be saying that Adonalsium wanted to be Shattered, didn't see it coming, but then didn't try to stop them because he was like, "Jeez, finally... Took y'all long enough."

#2:  Getting more likely, I think...Here we have Adonalsium knowing, as part of his divine knowledge, that he must be Shattered. So he goes along, doing his god thing, waiting for the time when his creations are able to kill him. Sees the Yolen16 and their plots coming from a 1000 years away and  goes along  with their machinations, ending in his Shattering. But if he wants to be Shattered, why would it be a waiting game? Why not skip to Scenario #3 where you just orchestrate your own death in pursuit of evolution, instead of waiting around for someone else to figure it out? Well, perhaps that is part of the trigger, as it were. If we start from the place where any fully-formed Adonalsium must eventually Shatter in order to evolve, then there must be a trigger...Something that starts the chain and says "Shatter-Time!". So we have Adonalsium...and he knows eventually he will need to be Shattered. I think it may be a little intellectually lazy to say that not only does god know he needs to die to evolve, but he also knows when he has stopped evolving and has arrived at the point of needing to be Shattered.

#3: We've seen this before, yeah? Ruin spent hundreds and thousands of years manipulating the people of Scadrial  into freeing the villain, whilst thinking themselves the heroes. I think Adonalsium would be capable of the same, manipulating the people of Yolen into believing that the only way to save the universe was to kill their god.

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From MB:SH

A diverse group, she said. With equally diverse motives. Some wished for the power, others saw killing Adonalsium as the only good option left to them.

When I first started mind-sketching this stuff out, this was the scenario I used as a starting point. Mostly because I was just trying to shoehorn myself to a place where Dragonsteel: Secret History is eventually a thing ;). And because it makes sense in a linear way. If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered, I suspect it would need to done by others who did not know that they were doing what god wanted, with the idea of this being mirrored in real world religious stories.

Jesus was killed by people who thought they were doing the right thing and had no issue with the deed. Would it have been different had they known Jesus needed to die? If they knew, for a fact, that they were not killing a man but their god? I’m sure the Rayse of the Pharisee’s might still have been cool with it, but would the Leras?

And even if the would-be Shatterers would still have been fine with killing a willing god, them even having that knowledge might change everything, as perhaps the group’s intent to kill a god was what was necessary.

But back to my current point ;)…If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered by the unaware, who also have the desire and means to actually kill god, it would make sense for him to activate the all-time long con in order to orchestrate his own death while all of the players remain blissfully unaware of their parts in the play, making Ruin’s manipulation of Scadralian history look like the games that infants play.

But while this scenario does make sense to me, it lacks choice and agency. So we have a near omniscient god who is so self-aware that he not only knows the time at which his evolution has stopped, but what must occur for the evolution to continue. And then guides people of his godly choosing to Shatter him in the way he knows he has to be in order to ultimately advance to the next, purer state of god. Ol’ Adonalsium has it all figured out and that’s just a little boring I think. Sure there is still massive uncertainty in this system post-Shattering, because as long as the reformation of Adonalsium is not guaranteed there is the possibility of the Cosmere being completely consumed by the hate of god. But still.

But, to be fair, perhaps the reformation of Adonalsium is guaranteed. A system where a truly omniscient god knows and plots his own evolutionary course. He guides his creations to Shatter his power, knowing it must eventually reform into something more pure and perfect which he knows someone else will take up.  A fatalistic system where all paths eventually lead to a new Adonalsium… Which in turn always leads to a Shattering…then to a new Adonalsium…And so on, to infinity. Backwards and forwards. A mirroring of real world proponents of our universe being in an endless series of “Big Bangs” and “Big Crunches”. The universe ‘bangs’ open, expands, expands, expands, eventually reaching a point where the process is somehow reversed. And then the universe ‘crunches’ in, contracting, contracting, contracting, until the “Bang” must happen again…and so on. But as opposed to the real universe in which the same stuff just gets thrown in new directions, each Cosmere cycle ends with a new and better god. Fatalistic, but still cool.

I think all of the above scenarios are certainly plausible and each could make sense in their own ways, from both philosophical and narrative perspectives. But what would make the most sense from the perspective of one Brandon Sanderson? Well I won’t know that for a few decades, but I can at least guess(wrong;). And I guess a system where no outcome is guaranteed.

My vote is for something like Scenario #4, or the The Talladega Nights Corollary. Jean Girad desperately wanted Ricky Bobby to win, freeing him to train dogs with Gregory full-time. But as much as he wanted to lose, if he gave even one inch to Ricky, he’d be invalidating everything he was that got him that point, thereby invalidating his desire to retire in the first place... In order to train dogs with Gregory full-time.

I imagine a Cosmere where the endless cycle of Shatterings and Reformations in pursuit of the ultimate ideal of perfection, can only be achieved by taking the most difficult path.

So let’s imagine I’m right about infinite Adonalsiums  and let’s put me in the shoes of the Vessel of Adonalsium that was most recently Shattered, the Dalinar of their time, as it were…Call me, Bizzaro-nar. Say Bizzaro-nar was the person who defeated the latest incarnation of Odium, ending in the reformation of Adonalsium, which he took up and Ascended. Now I believe this will be a clear the board-type situation, where the new Adonalsium remakes the Cosmere anew, beginning the cycle anew. Which is bittersweet for all of our heroes, if true. You may have defeated Odium, continuing the Cosmere and Adonalsium down their path to perfection, but you still get wiped out. Its seems fatalistic and totally unfair, but I think it’s the way it would have to go.  Every last thing in the Cosmere will have been created by the previous, less-perfect Adonalsium. How can those creations have a place in the new Cosmere of the new, more-perfect Adonalsium?  They are inferior by definition, having not been made by the current Adonalsium. Shallan, Kaladin, all the other characters we know and love, would be an inferior part of a new pursuit of perfection…

So Adonalsium starts from scratch…He shoots around, doing god stuff.  Trying to attain a perfect Cosmere…Whatever that is. So now we get to the trigger. Why Shatter? When?

I believe the Vessel of Adonalsium shapes and guides their Cosmere as they strive for their perfect form, eventually reaching the evolutionary brick wall which necessitates their Shattering.  The Critical Fail, as it were.  But what is this failure? I believe it’s the same failure every time. You have failed most spectacularly as a god whenever your creations try and succeed in killing you. Whenever beings you have created are able to rationalize, plot, and carry out the murder of the Supreme Being in their universe, you have failed in the most ultimate way and can go on no further down the path. The Shattering was not only the method of killing god, it was the proof for it needing to be done.

So it’s not really a trigger, I suppose. It’s just another inevitability in the cycle. If Adonalsium can never truly be perfect but can only keep striving towards it, then the same must be said for the Cosmere. And I say an imperfect Cosmere will always lead to some of god’s creations believing they must kill god in order to save their universe. The paragon of hubris.

So back to Bizzaro-nar. He’s flitting around and through his near-infinite wisdom sees the Yolen16 coming. And he’s all like, “You’ve got to be kidding me! All I’ve done for these people, all I’ve done for the whole freaking Cosmere, and they’re plotting to kill me??”  Which leads Bizzaro-nar to a breakthrough as he uses his super-deific-understanding powers to realize what a total failure this makes him and that Shattering is the only way forward. But even knowing it needed to happen I still think he’d fight any attempt tooth and nail because I think Cosmere natural selection should hold that Adonalsium would not reach a point where he had to Shatter until he was able to be Shattered. Or to rephrase, if you can stop from being Shattered, you haven’t reached a point where you need to be Shattered.

Or, perhaps Ascending to Adonalsium still doesn't mean that you get the whole picture of the cycle of Cosmere's and your place in it. Maybe Adonalsium always fights the Shattering because he doesn't know his part in the play either and just doesn't want to die. And if you don't know you need to die, you probably will fight it with all your godly might. Which ties back into the circle. In order to evolve to a better Adonalsium, your best must be able to be beaten. And if your best cannot be beaten then it's not time yet.

So Bizarro-nar loses to the Yolen 16 and the power of Adonalsium is Shattered into the 16 Intents. But why those Intents? Wob’s have said they could’ve been different Intents, so why those? Well, I’ve already covered 1 as I think Odium has to necessarily be part of the party. Now I’ve seen some people theorize that Adonalsium was Shattered into those Intents because it had something to do with mirroring what was in each of the 16 Shatterers, but I think that it’s backwards. That Adonalsium was Shattered into the Intents not in accordance with the motivations of the 16, but rather because it was the failures most in those Intents that led the Yolen16 on their path. Those are the Intents that got us into this mess, those are the one’s that’ll get us out . The Yolen16 may have thought they were directing things, perhaps even thinking they had a hand in how the Intents shook out. But little did they know that any successful Shattering would only succeed in the exact way that it did.

So there you have it....Way too long and and almost certainly wrong!...Just as promised Now to just sit back and wait for Rshara to post a WoB completely invalidating every thing I've said. I imagine it'll be something like this:

Spoiler

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)
 

 

Play/PauseQuestioner

Some readers have theorized that this Adonalsium is but the latest in a series of infinite Adonalsiums, in which the Cosmere is in an endless cycle of Shatterings and Reformations in order achieve a higher state of perfection.

Brandon Sanderson

That is so wrong that I hesitate in even dignifying it with an answer, so I will just say that anyone who thinks that should probably stop reading my books full-stop as they are obviously too dumb to pick up even the simplest of my concepts.

 

[Calderis he/him]

This all seems to assume that Adonalsium had a Vessel. 

I disagree. 

Also, I don't think Brandon wants to recreat WoT. 

[RShara she/her]

Rude

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This all seems to assume that Adonalsium had a Vessel.

I made a lot of assumptions..That's one of them.

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Also, I don't think Brandon wants to recreat WoT. 

Me neither.

[Steeldancer he/him]

I don't like integrals. They give me nightmares. 

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

Rude

I wasn't trying to be. Was only making fun of myself.

[RShara she/her]

I was joking

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

I was joking

Gotcha, my bad..I try to tread lightly around here because I generally feel that my tone always comes across poorly...And I don't want to insult people who know so much more than me about a subject I love so much.

 

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

12 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I don't like integrals. They give me nightmares. 

Well, this should cheer you up

A definite integral walks into a bar and orders five pints of Guinness. The bartender pours them, and the definite integral finishes them one after the other. “Can I have five more?” he asks.

The bartender says, “Don’t you think you’ve had enough?”

“Don’t worry about me,” says the integral. “I know my limits.”

 

 

[RShara she/her]

Anyway, as Calderis mentioned, I think this idea is too similar to WoT, and that Brandon would be very VERY wary of writing anything remotely similar.  Also, I believe Brandon has said there is a Beginning, Middle, and End to the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium, which implies that it's not going to be cyclical.

Edited January 31, 2018 by RShara

[1stBondsmith he/him]

I too feel that the infinite cycle might be too broad a story line even for the largest story line of all time- (The Cosmere). But I do like a premeditated natural law of unity that will eventually bring all investiture back to its origins, like gravity collapsing the universe when other forces are too weak to hold them back. It seems Odium must be trying to shatter investiture as fast as he can, since he is even going after worlds where the Shards invested most heavily. Harmony will be a big issue for him as he is now. 

What will be the tipping point to bring them all together? Will it be a point when all sentient life has equal portions of investiture, or when none is available to life? Will Intents like Ambition and Dominion overpower Autonomy (who by the way does not want to help Hoid and applauds Odium's mission) and others? Is a subtheme of Unity going to happen everywhere till Adonalsium is reformed? I think this would be epoch enough for any person's writing, even the Branderbots. No cycle needed.

[NotBurtReynolds he/him]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

Anyway, as Calderis mentioned, I think this idea is too similar to WoT, and that Brandon would be very VERY wary of writing anything remotely similar.

Maybe I don't understand WoT enough. Just because my theory posits a cyclical nature of god and their universe I don't think that necessarily makes it too similar. And for arguments sake, lets say I'm right and that Brandon came up with the basic framework of how Adonalsium and the Cosmere works prior to finishing WoT. Does he then scrap it for being too similar? And while I was partial to one version of my theory, I laid out numerous branching paths. Are they all too similar to WoT to even be considered?

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

Also, I believe Brandon has said there is a Beginning, Middle, and End to the story of the Shattering of Adonalsium, which implies that it's not going to be cyclical.

I think there can still be a Beginning, Middle, and End to the story of the Shattering under what I proposed. I'm just saying the story we're getting is not the only one.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

** laughs maniacally for several minures **

Ahhhh, ok now thats out of the way im going to be one of those guys that says; "i like it. Dont think its likely but you could be onto something.."

1stly I kinda agree with Calderis that Mr S doesn't want to rehash ideas..

But regarding the WoTs cyclic nature this is given and reinforced at the start of every book incuding book 1. Its kinda one of the major underlying theiries to the series..

But.!

Mr S has said connonically twice something along the lines: 'theres no such thing as a new idea, just perception.'

Stormlight / MB secret hystorys spoiler

Spoiler

Wit to Kal:

I think either the fleet story or when Kal meets Wit at the Canyons when he considers jumping. Wit says; theres no such thing as a new story, just perception..

And...

Kelsier to Preservation; theres no new ideas, uts all about style..

P.s. crazily paraphrased

Sooo.. is this Mr S foreshadowing / apologising so he can get away with accidently/ intentionally stealing someone eles / his own idea?

I think not.. Mr S is to good to steal

But i will say that I have a cookoo Theory (thats right.. Capital T there) that one of the things Hoid has been doing is "tagging" our favorite and unfavorite heroes and villians so at the right time he can blow the Horn of Vallere and bring these guys back to fight once again for the good of the Cosmere!!

Thats right guys, Vin is going to fight along side The Lord Ruler, Wax along side.. Miles.. and probably Wayne too.

Because whats coming.. will come? Has come.? Will come again..? Is going to need the Cosmeres best to prevail and what little we know of The Spirit realm I feel the need to postulate that this is entirely possible!!

!~ HIF ~!

Edited January 31, 2018 by Hoids Imaginary Friend

[1stBondsmith he/him]

Sanderson says he is going to try and avoid the "Avengers" style, Everyone-in for the last battle. in his books, but......It could be fu-u-u-un!

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

...Wow. I never thought my theory would spin into all this. I'm a bit awed by it. Like all theories, I question its authenticity and will say that I don't fully agree with it, but I can see where you're going with it and I really like it. Well done. Maybe instead of it being an infinite cycle of one eternal round, it's meant to happen once. Adonalsium Shatters once, allowing it to happen in order to gain more experience, Dividing itself into the 16 Shards that do their own thing in the cosmere, then ultimately seeks to Unite itself into One again, having experienced all things, and it stays that way without repeating. Maybe the story of the Iriali and the Long Trail could be considered parabolic in that regard, referring not only to their own people, but also indirectly to Adonalsium itself. This wouldn't be the only example of a Rosharan religion containing real-in-world applications -- the Horneaters believe that the Lunu'anaki (Hoid) is the god of mischief and cannot harm anyone, which is pretty much true, and some Thaylens believe in religious superstitions called the Passions, and Odium has revealed himself to pretty much be the Shard of Passion. I know the Iriali actually are following their Long Trail of the Seven Lands, with Roshar being the Fourth, but a connection to Adonalsium seems likely to me. Then again, its authenticity is quesitonable and I can't fully agree with my own theory, but it's going somewhere, I think.

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Firerust said:

Odium has revealed himself to pretty much be the Shard of Passion.

Odium isn't Passion, imo.  The only one that states he is Passion is him.  Everyone else who is familiar with the Shard and the power refers to it as Odium.  His touch on the Rhythms is only despite and hate and arrogance, and the Rhythms are a Spiritual manifestation not under Odium's control.

[Borio Singaldi he/him]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Odium isn't Passion, imo.  The only one that states he is Passion is him.  Everyone else who is familiar with the Shard and the power refers to it as Odium.  His touch on the Rhythms is only despite and hate and arrogance, and the Rhythms are a Spiritual manifestation not under Odium's control.

Which is why I say "he revealed himself", rather than "it has been revealed". We obviously need to take his word with a pinch of copper, but there appears to be evidence of truth in that claim. After all, a couple of the Unmade, Splinters of Odium's power, serve to encourage Passion in people. Nergaoul, the Thrill, fills people with a strong desire for action, momentum, even bloodlust. Ashertmarn, Heart of the Revel. encourages strong indulgence, idleness, and excess in people. Different types of emotion other than simple hate brought to an extreme, aka passion. Also, the Fused at the Battle of Thaylen Field seemed very much about Passion, trying to incite the Singers there to action. When one of them questioned what Venli was up to with Timbre, he decided to ignore it because she appeared to show lots of Passion, which was satisfying enough for him. And Odium even speaks of there being much Passion in Thaylen City even when not talking to Dalinar, so it's safe to assume that he didn't just say that to deceive Dalinar.

So I would say that you could call him the Shard of Odium or the Shard of Passion, as he is shown to exemplify both, but as of yet, it's not too believable.

[RShara she/her]

19 minutes ago, Firerust said:

Which is why I say "he revealed himself", rather than "it has been revealed". We obviously need to take his word with a pinch of copper, but there appears to be evidence of truth in that claim. After all, a couple of the Unmade, Splinters of Odium's power, serve to encourage Passion in people. Nergaoul, the Thrill, fills people with a strong desire for action, momentum, even bloodlust. Ashertmarn, Heart of the Revel. encourages strong indulgence, idleness, and excess in people. Different types of emotion other than simple hate brought to an extreme, aka passion. Also, the Fused at the Battle of Thaylen Field seemed very much about Passion, trying to incite the Singers there to action. When one of them questioned what Venli was up to with Timbre, he decided to ignore it because she appeared to show lots of Passion, which was satisfying enough for him. And Odium even speaks of there being much Passion in Thaylen City even when not talking to Dalinar, so it's safe to assume that he didn't just say that to deceive Dalinar.

So I would say that you could call him the Shard of Odium or the Shard of Passion, as he is shown to exemplify both, but as of yet, it's not too believable.

Hatred does everything that you described.  Hatred eats all other emotions and leave you hollow, and you strive to fill it with indulgence.  Ashtertmarn takes away inhibitions, he doesn't inspire anything.  Nergaoul inspires bloodlust and conquest, which are tied to hatred.  It's basically a berserker rage. The Midnight Mother only knows how to imitate with violence.

Besides, a voluntary giving up on some sort of power doesn't always have to reflect on the source of that power.  Moelach doesn't much have to do with either Hatred or Passion.

The Rhythms, as I said, are corrupted by him to Spite, Scorn, etc.  Given that this manifestation is the most involuntary, shouldn't *some* of them have more positive aspects, if he were Passion?  They are all corrupted toward hate and spite.

We also have multiple more trustworthy entities confirming that Odium is the correct name for the Shard.

The only evidence that Odium is really Passion are statements by Odium himself.  Which, as with when Ruin spoke to Vin, may be true in his eyes, but is likely a twisted truthin reality.

 

Odium never inspires anything.  He consumes passion, which is one of the things Hatred can do.  Read how empty and drained Moash feels after killing Elhokar.  That's the bitter aftertaste left over when hatred has eaten everything else.

Edited January 31, 2018 by RShara

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Very nicely stated @NotBurtReynolds, but as a personal proponent of this theory, I feel like I have to add some qualifications.

FIRST PRINCIPLES:

1. Adonalsium is himself a piece of a larger whole—The dwarf Galaxy that the Cosmere takes place in is not the whole universe, it is just a piece of all of the energy and matter in a greater whole. This implies that Adonalsium as the God of the Cosmere is himself a constituent component of something larger.
2. Adonalsium is a Galactic Mind—I believe (like has been hypothesized by others) that Adonalsium started as thought. Just like free Investiture we have seen in the Cosmere, one qualitive aspect of matter, energy and spiritual energy is that when concentrated it has an internal imperative to become self-aware, or sentient. So I believe that the original God Adonalsium was a coalescing of sentience with his corporeal body being composed of all of the matter, energy and Investiture in the created Dwarf Galaxy. Like an Inversion of Descartes cogito, Adonalsium's first principle was "I am therefore I think". This is mirrored in the development of sentience of forms of free Investiture seen on Roshar (the spren) and on Sel (the Seons and Skazes). I believe that this is most likely one of the 2 primary directives from the God Beyond (the true god of all created things) Be and Become, and Know Thyself.
3. Experience is the Path to Knowledge—I think that as exhibited by the Radiant spren's journey towards Sapience that the primary path to wisdom and knowledge (sapience) is experience. The process of creation for Adonalsium is like the existence of the One in the Iriali religion, he creates in order to have vessels composed of his being that are able to Experience. Through this experience the One becomes wiser.
4. Adonalsium Doesn't Ever Truly Die—I don't think Adonalsium was ever killed, he is just broken into different pieces, and these pieces that were separated from the whole are thereby driven by a more concentrated intent, and experience Existence in a form that the whole could not have. This is like the bicameral mind theory that Philip K. Dick examined in his novel A Scanner Darkly. The protagonist has taken a drug, Substance D, which has broken the corpus collusum's link between the two different hemispheres of his brain, so he essentially experiences the world from two different views, with two different precept systems without the ability to synthesize these two conflicting perspectives into a non-contradicting whole. He is functionally divided. I think the separation of intents from the whole is similar to this process, to truly experience what Divine Hatred is, it needs to be free from the virtues that gave it context. This is experience in the most concentrated of forms, and is an analytic process. Through breaking things apart you can understand their constituent components.

 

EXPANSION ON FIRST PRINCIPLES:

1. One thing we have to think of is the sheer timescale that events on the Cosmic scale take place. The idea of Eternity is hard to grasp, but if you have an infinite amount of time you could count all of the individual grains of sand on the earth 100,000,000 times and still have an eternity left. So with the 2 great Directives from the God Beyond of "Be" and "Become", and Know Thyself, Adonalsium, a being of pure thought and energy distributed in all matter, energy and Investiture in the Cosmere, has a long time to achieve each of the Becoming and Know thyself directives. In the Hegelian Dialectic of Being, (which is similar to Heraclitus's view of perpetual change by the way which Brandon mentioned in the story at his author signing) Becoming is constant state of destruction and preservation, Being resists change, Becoming takes a portion of that state of Being and creates something new while destroying something as well. This is process of Creative Destruction, and I really like the idea that this process has as it's end goal a (possibly unattainable) state of Perfection.

   We can infer with near certainty that there is a God that is greater than Adonalsium (who won't really be mentioned in the Cosmere works other than obliquely) and that he is the God of the Beyond, where the true being of all People pass to after death (except Kelsier). This implies that Adonalsium was himself created, and this implies that the actions of Adonalsium are at the very least fufilling the purpose of his Creation.

   It seems safe to assume that a God directly created by another God would find himself doing similar things as the primary God but in Microcosm, and implies that possibly the reason for creation is so that the God Beyond can in turn Know Himself.

2. We know that thought is a tangible and durable attribute of the Cosmere. Thought exists separately from the thinker (the Cognitive Realm). This implies that there is a permanence of thought that is not tied to specific life, and maybe this is one of the mechanism whereby Adonalsium can reconstruct the lessons learned once he comes back together as a Unified mind. All Experience is encoded in the great galactic Unconscious mind.

3. The Iriali religion seems very cyclical in nature, we come form the one, experience life and then return to the one. This form of existence seems to imply that life in service to the one is a life of true experience. This a morally neutral philosophy because all experience is valueable to the one, but it's incredibly interesting because how would we know the true limits of depravity if Torol Sadeas hadn't been shat out from the one and then reabsorbed. In the greater view all experience is valuable, but not all actions are admirable. But in effort to understand the limits of these precepts, Crem-holes like Sadeas need to be given the agency to show in high relief just what a total crem-hole looks like.

4. So I think that Adonalsium's shattering isn't a matter of death so much as the first part of the process of Creative Destruction of becoming. Some of what he was before will be lost, but in the end he will be something different. The fusion of the shard Harmony from the components of Ruin and Preservation is part of this process, just as the Shattering of Ambition and the Shatterings of Devotion and Dominion. Odium too is a vessel in service of cosmic timescale experience, because it was a pretty crafty and original thing to do to shove all of that free Investiture into the Coginive Realm of Sel (bet that's never happened before).

 

So I Think the Unity portion of this theory really comes down to the pressure of Synthesis, once the analytical lessons have been learned, it's time to put the information together into a unified system. So I love the fact that this could be an infinitely repeating cycle of shattering and fusion, each time some different combination of intents is birthed and each time Adonalsium Becomes a different and more perfect god.

I think that this topic is incredibly interesting and like @Firerust said I think that there some elements in the OP that I don't quite agree with, but I love the general direction of this theory @NotBurtReynolds and am excited to see where this discussion goes.Just updated my signature to have this be one of my espoused theories.

I will address some individual points in these posts later when I have so more of my real work done (stupid bills, they don't pay themselves).

Edited February 1, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
pedantic qualification ;)

[RShara she/her]

Here's a thread with a lot of good evidence in it: 

 

Along with some WoBs that heavily imply Odium is the right name for the Shard:

Quote

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

source

Notice Brandon is distinguishing between Odium and Rayse on the bolded part.  Passion wouldn't be naturally selfish, as there are many selfless things that can inspire Passion or that people can be Passionate about.

Quote

2dark_22

RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. (Not quite a RAFO.)

source

Odium will survive.  Not necessarily Rayse, but Odium.

Quote

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

source

Sound familiar?

 

And as I said, 4 much more reliable beings label Odium as Hatred.  Odium labels Odium as Passion.  Given a choice between the two, I will believe the 4 reliable beings over the 1 unreliable one.

 

[Calderis he/him]

For all the reasons RShara already posted, and as I've said many of the same things elsewhere, I'm fully in the Odium camp. 

Either every realmatically aware being we're aware of has been deceived or is lying, or Odium is deluded/lying. Of the Two options, one seems far more feasible. 

There's also this particular WoB, which I find hard to apply if the Shard is passion. 

Quote

Millennium

Some dictionaries list two meanings for the word "odium": the feeling of strong hatred, and that which provokes hatred from others. Do both of these apply to the Shard with that name?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

 

[RShara she/her]

51 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

We know that there is a God that is greater than Adonalsium (who won't really be mentioned in the Cosmere works other than obliquely) and that he is the God of the Beyond, where the true being of all People pass to after death (except Kelsier). This implies that Adonalsium was himself created, and this implies that the actions of Adonalsium are at the very least fufilling the purpose of his Creation. said I think that there some elements in the OP that I don't quite agree with, but I love the general direction of this theory and am excited to see where this discussion goes.Just updated my signature to have this be one of my espoused theories.

A bit of pedantry from me here:  We don't know that there is a God greater than Adonalsium.  There are people who believe there is, but we don't have (and won't get) confirmation that one actually exists.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Now that I'm done with my calculus, i can get over my stupid fear of integrals. 

Ok. I don't think it's in a cycle. I think there will be pieces of the story that fit into the end of the cosmere, but I don't think it's circular in nature. It is an interesting idea, however. I just don't think it's at all likely. First off, the cosmere will have changed greatly by the end. And also, according to my own theories, i do not believe Adonalsium had a human vessel, but instead had an infinite mind, constructed of the Spiritual realm itself (refer yourself to my theory in my signature, it's my best cosmere work). 

I'll give an upvote for originality, even if it's unlikely. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

A bit of pedantry from me here:  We don't know that there is a God greater than Adonalsium.  There are people who believe there is, but we don't have (and won't get) confirmation that one actually exists.

Vin (who held the whole power of Preservation) after dying decided to go to the Beyond while smiling and holding Elend's hand. This implies that she is aware that the transition to the Beyond is not final oblivion, but some state of being where she anticipates enjoying the presence of her love Elend. Ati and Rashek likewise transition to the Beyond without trepidation at the thought of the journey. If Adonalsium was the ultimate God of the Universe, it seems logical to assume that the Beyond might not be a nice place to go to after he was shattered by mortal vessels. I believe that it is a very reasonable and valid inference to make that there is a Supreme God (even though this God won't be mentioned directly in the Cosmere) if the Beyond continues to function without the presence of Adonalsium . Obviously all intentions of this Ultimate God would have to inferred, but based on how Investiture naturally seeks to become sentient I think that this is a valid inference that this is fundamental aspect of Investiture (or Spiritual Energy).

Edited February 1, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[RShara she/her]

Sure, it’s a reasonable inference. But it’s not (and isn’t going to be) a fact, so we shouldn’t treat it as one. /pedant