[OB] Real Reason for Recreance (Theory)

[Blackace]

Here me out. I was thinking on the reason for Recreance. In the book, the cause was said to be because the radiants found out that the original voidbringer were humans.

This seemed strange to me, seeing that a nahel bond is an extremely intimate bond, that they would just kill off their spren for this fact. Also, it's strange to me that they seemed to be horrified about the epiphany, yet do nothing to remedy the situation, the Parshendi remained as mindless slaves, treated like chulls. You would think that they may start feeling pity for the natives. This is where the theory comes in.

The reason for Recreance is not related to the reality of Parshendi, but it more of an insurance for the future.

Just as Leras from mistborn made plans for after his death, honor may have made his own plan for after his death. It is known from Dalinar's vision that Honor was still alive during the Recreance, and in Oathbringer, we learn that Honor was starting to lose his mind around Recreance. Honor and the radiants of the time made a plan, an investment for the future, the Recreance may be an insurance for the future that both the humans and the bonded sprens agreed about. 

So where is this Going?

In the world today we have maybe a couple of thousands of these heavily invested entity right under odiums nose, (preservation's mist anyone) which may turn out to become the turning point that tips the scale.

We know that Odium is not all-knowing just from the fact that he thought Shallan was an Elsecaller, a lie that she told. So it is quite possible that Odium may be fooled into thinking that the radiants abandoned their oath because of the truth.

All just a theory that was orbiting in my mind. I wanna know what you guys think.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Blackace

[RShara]

Sorry, I'm a little confused.  What exactly is your theory for the Recreance?  That the KR are in hiding?

[Blackace]

Oops, I guess I wasn't clear. The theory is that the Recreance was an event to spread honor's power out without Odium thinking of it as a threat. 

[Calderis]

The Recreance killed the Spren. I don't think it did anything to help the situation. 

Between Honor's Ravings, the revelation that they were foreign, the Shattered Plains as a monument to show that their powers were as vast and terrible as Honor's ravings implied, and then what happened to the Parsh... I think it all adds up to enough. 

Humans and singers were still fighting each other at the time of the recordings in the gem archive we saw. It was leading up to the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram. When they lobotimized an entire race of people, I think that was the actual tipping point at which they realized "we're not the people we believed." 

[RShara]

Agree with Cal there.  Plus, the knowledge that they only were on Roshar because they destroyed their previous planet, Honor's ravings about how they were going to destroy Roshar as well seems to have hit home at a vulnerable time.

[digitalbusker]

I'm open to the idea that some of the things whose causes we think we know are actually part of some Shardic long game, but inducing a bunch of his acolytes to break their oaths, or even appear to, seems sufficiently against Honor's Intent to rule him out as Secret Recreance Chessmaster.

[Weltall]

37 minutes ago, Blackace said:

Oops, I guess I wasn't clear. The theory is that the Recreance was an event to spread honor's power out without Odium thinking of it as a threat. 

Yeahhhh, the power was already 'spread out' among hundreds or thousands of surgebinders by that point, compared to having it concentrated in ten people before the spren started forming Nahel Bonds and (so far as we know right now) maybe a couple dozen people in the present day. The Recreance didn't spread out Honor's power as channeled through humans so much as it practically snuffed it out. Which is exactly what they were trying to do, per Oathbringer. They saw evidence that their power represented a massive threat to Roshar (the Shattered Plains, plus hearing that they did far worse to a world that humans used to live on) and Honor's mad ravings just made things worse.

The idea that the Radiants could somehow convince Odium that Honor's power isn't a threat any longer and to stop concentrating attention on it is, unfortunately, kind of laughable. Rayse says outright that he knows he can't afford to leave behind any splinters of Honor if/when he becomes able to finally depart Roshar.

[Isilel]

15 hours ago, Blackace said:

Oops, I guess I wasn't clear. The theory is that the Recreance was an event to spread honor's power out without Odium thinking of it as a threat. 

I do think it possible that Honor had a long-range plan and that the Recreance was part of it in some way. Maybe in that it cozened Odium into waiting long enough for humans to build a civilization that would be able to resist him without such an overwhelming reliance on the Heralds and surge-binders as in the past. Maybe in that it gave Cultivation time to introduce a lot of potentially vital subtle changes without Odium noticing.

15 hours ago, RShara said:

Agree with Cal there.  Plus, the knowledge that they only were on Roshar because they destroyed their previous planet, Honor's ravings about how they were going to destroy Roshar as well seems to have hit home at a vulnerable time.

But isn't it really odd, how on one hand Honor was "raving" about the Radiants being doomed to destroy the planet and thereby causing the Recreance... while on the other hand, he was preparing means for the re-founding of the Orders in the future? I mean, wouldn't the danger of destroying the world be far greater with both the Fused and the Radiants using surges in apocalyptic battles, than with Radiants alone, mostly using their powers for innocuous and productive things? I have difficulty to imagine how some of the Radiant powers even could be used for world-destroying purposes. Truthwatchers and Edgedancers, for instance, seem completely "safe" from that perspective to me.

And then, there is the fact that Honor's Cognitive Shadow is like no other that we have seen so far, in that it doesn't seem to be an investiture-preserved personality, but a collection of visions and commands. Could it be that other parts of Honor's and/or Tanavast's consciousness are hidden elsewhere? In the Sibling, perhaps? Could the "old Nohadon" of Dalinar's extra-curricular  dream have been Tanavast's cognitive shadow in the more usual sense?

14 hours ago, Weltall said:

The Recreance didn't spread out Honor's power as channeled through humans so much as it practically snuffed it out.

Isn't there a WoB that numbers of Nahel spren increased after Honor's death? I seem to remember something along these lines.

Quote

Rayse says outright that he knows he can't afford to leave behind any splinters of Honor if/when he becomes able to finally depart Roshar.

He also says that he "once thought" that he could leave them behind, so it is not at all laughable to imagine that he didn't take the threat of Honor's splinters seriously... until he saw how they could be used to effectively oppose him, still.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Isilel

[RShara]

10 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I do think it possible that Honor had a long-range plan and that the Recreance was part of it in some way. Maybe in that it cozened Odium into waiting long enough for humans to build a civilization that would be able to resist him without such an overwhelming reliance on the Heralds and surge-binders as in the past. Maybe in that it gave Cultivation time to introduce a lot of potentially vital subtle changes without Odium noticing.

But isn't it really odd, how on one hand Honor was "raving" about the Radiants being doomed to destroy the planet and thereby causing the Recreance... while on the other hand, he was preparing means for the re-founding of the Orders in the future? I mean, wouldn't the danger of destroying the world be far greater with both the Fused and the Radiants using surges in apocalyptic battles, than with Radiants alone, mostly using their powers for innocuous and productive things? I have difficulty to imagine how some of the Radiant powers even could be used for world-destroying purposes. Truthwatchers and Edgedancers, for instance, seem completely "safe" from that perspective to m

Honor isn't very good at seeing the future, so I think a long-range plan, other than getting the KR back when Odium starts to move again, is unlikely.

 

Going mad doesn't mean he didn't have bouts of lucidity.  See Fuzz in Secret History

[Carla Bridge Four]

I also think it was too much to discover they were the "invaders" after what they've done to the singers-listeners by defeating Ba-Ado-Mishram. They erased their minds, even if it wasn't their intention.

 

[StormingTexan]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

the Shattered Plains as a monument to show that their powers were as vast and terrible as Honor's ravings implied,

Do we have proof that the Shattered Plains were cause by the KR/Surgebinding? I must have completely missed this. 

30 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I also think it was too much to discover they were the "invaders" after what they've done to the singers-listeners by defeating Ba-Ado-Mishram. They erased their minds, even if it wasn't their intention.

 

That is a really good point and one I have not thought of. Seems like the cause was a number of things compiled. 

[Weltall]

12 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Do we have proof that the Shattered Plains were cause by the KR/Surgebinding? I must have completely missed this.

We don't know it was caused by surgebinding as such, but Brandon did make an annotation on someone's map at a signing that pointed to the Plains and said 'great magic unleasehd here' which more or less implies manipulation of the surges in some way, whether it was human surgebinders or Odium-aligned voidbinders. Same fundamental forces being manipulated, just by different means. Either way it doesn't really matter because the humans who fled Ashyn weren't using the exact same magic system as the Rosharans but they still ruined their world with it, it all comes down to evidence that magic can have cataclysmic effects if misused. But as others have mentioned, it's likely to have been a number of factors adding up rather than any one thing that drove the Radiants to do what they did.

[StormingTexan]

3 minutes ago, Weltall said:

We don't know it was caused by surgebinding as such, but Brandon did make an annotation on someone's map at a signing that pointed to the Plains and said 'great magic unleasehd here' which more or less implies manipulation of the surges in some way, whether it was human surgebinders or Odium-aligned voidbinders. Same fundamental forces being manipulated, just by different means. Either way it doesn't really matter because the humans who fled Ashyn weren't using the exact same magic system as the Rosharans but they still ruined their world with it, it all comes down to evidence that magic can have cataclysmic effects if misused. But as others have mentioned, it's likely to have been a number of factors adding up rather than any one thing that drove the Radiants to do what they did.

Ah ok. I knew it was a poplar theory just wondering if I missed something that explicitly says it was caused by the KR as was implied in a couple post here. 

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Do we have proof that the Shattered Plains were cause by the KR/Surgebinding? I must have completely missed this. 

It's barely touched in the books. I think it's Navani that mentions once that Stormseat was destroyed in Ahariatiem.

We also have this. (see Weltall's post above) 

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Great magic unleashed here. (Written in someone's book with an arrow pointing at the Shattered Plains)

Which unfortunately seems to now lack the picture and isn't in Arcanum yet... 

I believe that due to the similarity of the plains to a cymatic pattern that this was a result of the surge of illumination manipulating sound waves on a massive scale. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Calderis

[digitalbusker]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

We don't know it was caused by surgebinding as such, but Brandon did make an annotation on someone's map at a signing that pointed to the Plains and said 'great magic unleasehd here' which more or less implies manipulation of the surges in some way, whether it was human surgebinders or Odium-aligned voidbinders. Same fundamental forces being manipulated, just by different means. Either way it doesn't really matter because the humans who fled Ashyn weren't using the exact same magic system as the Rosharans but they still ruined their world with it, it all comes down to evidence that magic can have cataclysmic effects if misused. But as others have mentioned, it's likely to have been a number of factors adding up rather than any one thing that drove the Radiants to do what they did.

Probably not Team Odium, per the WoR epigraphs:

Quote

"They blame our people / For the loss of that land. / The city that once covered it / Did range the eastern strand. / The power made known in the tomes of our clan / Our gods were not who shattered these plains."    Song of Wars, 55th stanza

 

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, RShara said:

Honor isn't very good at seeing the future, so I think a long-range plan, other than getting the KR back when Odium starts to move again, is unlikely.

People make long-range plans all the time without being able to see the future and Cultivation could have helped with that part anyway.

14 hours ago, RShara said:

Going mad doesn't mean he didn't have bouts of lucidity.  See Fuzz in Secret History

Going mad didn't preclude having a longe-range plan either .

Anyway, my other theory is that Honor's ravings were a con carried out by Ishar. The interesting thing is that Ishar and Nale weren't worried about the Radiants destroying the world through their surges without Honor to keep them in check, but about a small chance of them destroying some mysterious "measures we took", thus weakening the Oathpact further and somehow causing a Desolation. Now, this is very different from Honor's alleged ravings and the Recreance was very handy for Ishar's goals. A fortituious coincidence or did he make it happen? Was dying Honor unable to talk to the Radiants anymore, perhaps, and did Ishar somehow impersonate him? His current god-king antics could be a hint. Or was he able to manipulate Honor through their connection? 

In any case, Ishar very likely knew how the things truly went down on Ashyn and he wasn't worried about Radiants potentially destroying Roshar. Yes, he is crazy now, but was he really that crazy back at the time of the Recreance, when he recruited Nale to prevent resurgence of the Orders? And even in "Honor's ravings", the Dawnshards appeared to be crucial to the destruction of Ashyn and they are, according to one of Dalinar's visions, lost. Of course, in the very same vision Honor also thought that they would have given humanity a better chance against Odium - which suggests what happened on Ashyn, doesn't it? A battle with Odium - that's when there is a real danger of harming the world, yet giving in would be even worse...

[recneps]

I don't believe that it was a long-term plan, but neither do I believe it was so simple as them deciding to abandon their oaths. I believe it was their realization that they're not fulfilling their oaths, and they never have been. The Oaths are things of perception, and this can be seen in their various forms even within the same order. If a Knight Radiant realized that they're not fulfilling their oaths, this undoubtedly would lead to the death of their Spren as it did for Syl when Kaladin broke his Oaths. We've never before seen what happens to a Sprenblade at the moment when the Spren dies, as Kaladin had not yet wielded Syl when he slew her. It seems possible they'd materialize.. And that could easily lead to the event we've seen as the Recreance - a bunch of Lost Radiants yielding their Shards, upon realization that they'd slain their spren.

[Weltall]

The thing is, the spren were still alive right up until the big scene at Feverstone. The Windrunners had to use their surgebinding to get there, the Radiants armor was glowing and Dalinar thought he could hear a screaming sound when they abandoned their shards, but he didn't know what that meant at the time. While perception is important in determining whether an Ideal has been upheld or not, that can't explain why all the spren were killed at the same time. The Recreance was a planned thing, they didn't all go there randomly and suddenly realize they weren't keeping their oaths the way they'd believed, it was definitely a conscious decision and one that they'd already thought through (including any implications of the truth of Roshar's history vis a vis their oaths) before going through with it.

[Calderis]

Yes, as usual I agree with @Weltall.

If this were just a realization, the Recreance would have happened haphazardly when each of the Radiants came to the realization of what happened.

Feverstone keep shows this to be untrue. It was a concerted effort on the part of the Radiants, and for whatever reason, in my opinion, the Spren agreed. The Radiants were Surgebinding right up to the end. No finicky powers. The Spren were complicit and believed in the course of action taken. 

[digitalbusker]

The problem with using the Feverstone Keep vision as evidence for a theory of the Recreance is the glyphs in the corner of the screen for Dramatic Reenactment.

Now I do think it's more likely than not that something like that did happen, more or less. Honor doesn't seem like he'd be big on dramatic license. But I'm still way of any sentence that starts with "Feverstone Keep shows..."

[Cognitive Shadow]

If you look this up on the coppermind, the humans destroyed their previous world using the dawnshards. While it is not very well known what these weapons did, I think it is possible one could have shattered the plains.

[Calderis]

@digitalbusker the reason I take the Feverstone keep vision as meaningful is that the events are based off of real events. They are memories turned into an interactive program.

Quote

Questioner

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

source

And more recently. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

source

So while the characters that Dalinar steps into, and the actions in reaction to him, are fabrications, I believe that the version of events shown is close to truth. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Calderis

[Spoolofwhool]

Adding on to what Calderis. All visions were for all intents and purposes, events which happened. The only one which wasn't based on reality, wasn't really anything at all, the vision where Honor showed Dalinar what he expected to come, and told what he thought of how he could defeat Odium. That was a vision without anything, because Honor can't really create visions, he can only adapt his memories, and make them a bit more interactable. 

[digitalbusker]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@digitalbusker the reason I take the Feverstone keep vision as meaningful is that the events are based off of real events. They are memories turned into an interactive program.

And more recently. 

So while the characters that Dalinar steps into, and the actions in reaction to him, are fabrications, I believe that the version of events shown is close to truth. 

I think you're right about that, but it's important (to me, anyway) to remember that the Stormfather visions are reenactments, and as such we're getting them with the biases of not one but two narrators baked in.

Edited February 2, 2018 by digitalbusker
Autocorrect

[Calderis]

31 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

I think you're right about that, but it's important (to me, anyway) to remember that there Stormfather visions are reenactments, and as such we're getting them with the biases of not one but two narrators baked in.

Fair enough.