Surge/Radiant Chart, WoR Update

[Fifth]

*EDIT filled it in fully

 

 

Your opinions and reasoning behind where you would place

Truthwatcher

Bondsmith

Cohesion

Tension 

The Final so far unnamed order  EDIT: *Willshapers (thanks KiManiak) i'm only just starting my first re-read now.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Fifth

[KiManiak]

I think WoR grants us enough information to reasonably assume certain things:

 

1. The "Final Order" you are looking for is Willshaper (mentioned in the epigraph of Chapters 49 and 53.

 

2. Willshapers and Lightweaver's share an "affinity" to the "great ones" in Shadesmar that Elsecallers were the "prime liasons" for (Epigraph of Chapter 53).  This strongly implies that they are therefore Order #8 (or "A" in your diagram).

 

3. Dalinar is a Bondsmith. It is highly likely that Bondsmiths are Order 10 (or "B")

 

4. Renarin is a Truthwatcher.  By process of elimination, it is highly likely that is Order 5 (or "C")

 

5. The Ars Arcanum in the back lists the Surges in Order.  Surge #9 is Cohesion.  We already knew that Surge #10 was Tension (although Brandon initially labeled it "Surface Tension like Surge) from a report of a signing Brandon did in Seattle last November I think.

Edited March 7, 2014 by KiManiak

[TomR]

Order 5 is likely Truthwatcher. The portraits at the top of "The Four" show the Heralds associated with orders 1, 5, 6, and 10. 1 is Kaladin, 6 is Shallan, and 10 is most likely Dalinar/Bondsmiths. Renarin sees (watcher). The "truth" is also telling given the shared Lightweaving Surge when we know the Lightweavers' spren are interested in a mixture of truths and lies.

Edited March 7, 2014 by TomR

[Fifth]

Very nice I knew someone one would already have this wrapped up for me all your reasoning is solid with the only exception being the surges being in order from the Ars Arcanum but for i'm gonna say i'm 99.9% sold on this anyway if it's a red herring then its so convincing who could be blamed to taking the bait. 8/10 in order then swap the last two, I doubt it

[Fifth]

Order 5 is likely Truthwatcher. The portraits at the top of "The Four" show the Heralds associated with orders 1, 5, 6, and 10. 1 is Kaladin, 6 is Shallan, and 10 is most likely Dalinar/Bondsmiths. Renarin sees (watcher). The "truth" is also telling given the shared Lightweaving Surge when we know the Lightweavers' spren are interested in a mixture of truths and lies.

 

I'm going to favor order#5 as Willshapers for now as to me that sounds more like a Illusion radiant name then Truthwatcher 

also the Truthwatchers sound more like information gathering Radiants and therefor  the Transportation surge seems important ...could well be wrong a lot of this depends on exactly what Cohesion entails 

Edited March 7, 2014 by Fifth

[Moogle]

Cohesion likely allows for one to 'shape' objects. Thus, Willshapers as Order 8. With Transportation, they can shape anything they see...

 

We also have this:

 

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm.

 

Transportation uses Shadesmar. Illumination does not. The Ars Arcanum states this rather plainly:

 

Transportation: The Surge of Motion and Realmatic Transition

 

If you're putting Willshapers as Order 5, you have to justify how they have an 'affinity' for Shadesmar that Order 8 does not.

 

Bondsmiths are likely Order 10 for many, many reasons.

 

Truthwatchers are Order 5 by process of elimination, and also because use of Illumination requires truth, going by what Pattern and Hoid say.

 

Based on this, this is the most accurate chart I have found:

Edited March 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Cortez]

Illumination and progression make more sense for the Truthwatchers and their ability to see the future, so I would swap 5 and 8 around.

[Aleksiel]

Chapter The Four has Ash = Shallan, Jezere = Kal and Paliah and Ishi for Dalinar and Renarin, so it's an open discussion which one is Bondsmith and which is Truthwatcher. I'm rooting for Paliah's Order to be the Truthwatchers as their personality type in one of the epigraphs matches Renarin pretty well. Illumination gives connection to the spiritual realm, which can explain the foresight. 

 

My deduction is Kelek's order must be the Willshapers, so I believe Moogle's chart to be the correct one.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fifth]

All is well lol, I just miss edited the image when I updated it, I was meaning to follow  KiManiak's  suggestion and put one of them in the wrong spot  ...I will fix it shortly  . Yes I agree that makes no sense. 

[thejopen27]

Was Ym on his way to becoming a Truthwatcher? Did Renarin demonstrate any abilities before Ym was killed?  I think we must assume that Ym was also a Truthwatcher, he's reserved but is also compassionate.  He has regrowth but is not an edge dancer so he must be a Truthwatcher.

Therefore, we can assume that Ranarin's spren also looks like a pattern like a Cryptic but made of light instead of shadow.  I don't have the quote but I believe that it was described as looking like a pattern of light, like light reflected through a crystal and it was shy and didn't want to come out.  The traits of Ym and his spren don't match the descriptions of Willshapers who love adventure and exploration and the powers demonstrated place it firmly in slot five.

 

Side note: the most likely person to be our first Willshaper has got to be Rysn. She is a traveler, an adventurer and she is not afraid to jump off the head of a giant greatshell in order to achieve her goal.  Willshapers must be in slot 8 because they are in the group that is good in shadesmar and the two powers that enable proficiency in shadesmar are elsecalling and soulcasting and elsecalling would be beneficial to an order that loved adventure and exploring.

[Shardlet]

If I am not very much mistaken, the epigraph for chapter 36 indicates that "Dustbringers" was a slang or pejorative term for the "Releasers".  I think this should be changed on the chart.

[Moogle]

If I am not very much mistaken, the epigraph for chapter 36 indicates that "Dustbringers" was a slang or pejorative term for the "Releasers".  I think this should be changed on the chart.

I disagree. I think it was their actual name, but it was just not very flattering because of the similarity to Voidbringer. Much like the Cryptics prefer Cryptics to liespren.

 

Kalak himself uses 'Dustbringer', too.

 

Also, Dustbringers follow the pattern of one syllable word + two syllable word. Wind-runner, Light-weaver, Else-caller, Dust-bringer. I would vote that the wiki keep their name as Dustbringers.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

I disagree. I think it was their actual name, but it was just not very flattering because of the similarity to Voidbringer. Much like the Cryptics prefer Cryptics to liespren.

 

Kalak himself uses 'Dustbringer', too.

 

Also, Dustbringers follow the pattern of one syllable word + two syllable word. Wind-runner, Light-weaver, Else-caller, Dust-bringer. I would vote that the wiki keep their name as Dustbringers.

 

Yup, and a lot of people in Mistborn used the term "Thug".  Your response does not address the epigraph, though.

[Moogle]

Yup, and a lot of people in Mistborn used the term "Thug".  Your response does not address the epigraph, though.

 

The epigraph was a history written after the Recreance. It also passed through the Vorin church, so there's issues with corruption possibly. It's possible the author was using Releaser so as to not anger the Dustbringers, if there were any left.

 

The epigraph says:

 

And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers.” They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies.

 

To the common people and Kalak, they were known as the Dustbringers, and that's good enough for me. The only people who really called them Releasers were apparently those who worked closely with them and weren't willing to anger them.

[Seloun]

Also, Dustbringers follow the pattern of one syllable word + two syllable word. Wind-runner, Light-weaver, Else-caller, Dust-bringer. I would vote that the wiki keep their name as Dustbringers.

 

AKA 'Luke Nounverber'. 'Stonewards' and 'Bondsmiths' potentially break both patterns, though, unless we take 'ward' and 'smith' as the verb.

[Shardlet]

The epigraph was a history written after the Recreance. It also passed through the Vorin church, so there's issues with corruption possibly. It's possible the author was using Releaser so as to not anger the Dustbringers, if there were any left.

 

The epigraph says:

 

To the common people and Kalak, they were known as the Dustbringers, and that's good enough for me. The only people who really called them Releasers were apparently those who worked closely with them and weren't willing to anger them.

 

Still sounds to me like they called themselves "Releasers".  And I think that they should get to choose what the name of their order is.

[Moogle]

AKA 'Luke Nounverber'. 'Stonewards' and 'Bondsmiths' potentially break both patterns, though, unless we take 'ward' and 'smith' as the verb.

 

Yeah. Stonewarden works, but Bondsmith ruins everything. I still would prefer that most Orders follow the pattern.

 

Still sounds to me like they called themselves "Releasers".  And I think that they should get to choose what the name of their order is.

 

The common people and at least one Herald knew them by a different name. I would argue that the most common name for them is what the Coppermind should use as their main article title, since that's what most people will search on the Wiki for - confused by Kalak, I would expect most people to search for 'Dustbringer' as opposed to 'Releaser'. This hardly matters with redirects available, though.

 

I agree you have a point that they perhaps should be allowed to name themselves. Still, I would find it weird if Kaladin decided he wanted to be an Airjogger when all of history declares his group of Radiants to be the Windrunners. At some point I feel that the majority wins the battle of what to call something. My preference remains that they be known as Dustbringers.

 

This is mostly about personal preference at this point, though. As long as the Coppermind lists both names and both redirect to the same article I have no issues, just slight preferences.