+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Storms! said: BUT! I have a question. Does compounding a metal give you savant-like abilities? Because there are trace metals in the blood (how Inquisitors are able to see). If the Fullborn has a simultaneous Push+Pull on these trace metals, while increasing weight with iron, he could shred the cremlings to pieces all at once.  But if not, ummmm yeah. Death Cloud I think I have the solution, this would be an epic war of attrition. Here's how I see the Sleepless eventually winning no matter what the Fullborn does if this battle takes place on Roshar. If it takes place on Scadrial the Sleepless hasn't really got a chance, so let's assume this is a Rosharan battle. The postulate that the fullborn has an unlimited supply of metal would fail, because of the fact that the mining and refining of metals is not very advanced on Roshar, so even if they brought a nearly limitless collection of metals with them to Roshar, over time this supply would dwindle. Stormlight for the Dysian Aimian is a cyclically renewing resource that the Sleepless would never run out of. Further, the Fullborn's metal supplies would be one of the first things targeted by the Dysian Aimian, have a cremling pop from Shadesmar into the physical realm, soulcast all of the Fullborn's gold into chull dung. Cost to the Dysian Aimian to eliminate the Fullborn's gold compounding, one cremling (basically an eyelash). I'm pretty sure that metal would glow in the Rosharan sub-astral just like it does on the Scadrian sub-astral, so the Fullborn couldn't hide their metal supplies, and slowly over time all of the Fullborn's metal reserves could be soulcast to inert substances (with the exception of their Atium, which is a very rare metal to start with). Then you would have a Sleepless facing off against a Feruchemist, then you initiate Cremling Death Cloud, and everyone who bet on the Dysian collects 1 extra emerald broam for every 2 that they wagered.  44 minutes ago, digitalbusker said: Back to @hoiditthroughthegrapevine's original Hyper-Prepared-Jasnah-Shadesmar-Strike plan: Do we know that spanreeds work across Realms? We do know that Ivory can't change his shape in the Physical Realm (not even into a razor sharp net). Why transition back into the Physical at all? Just keep grabbing beads for whatever's near your Target and turn them into plutonium. Fullborn doesn't give you a way to affect the Cognitive, so you can afford to take a little time. 1) They might or they might not. It depends on what fabrials look like in Shadesmar. It could be that they are fully trapped in the gem (in which case they would probably function like normal in Shadesmar) or they could just have a piece of the spren trapped in the gem (like how spren only partially manifest in the Physical Realm). It would be pretty hard to write with a pen with a big wriggling bit of spren sticking out of it. The other possible problem with spanreed communication between realms is that space is different in the Cognitive Realm. Would quantum entaglement still work when you are in a space that is topological surface that has constraints on the z axis of space? This would be fun to know what happens, and would be an interesting question to ask Brandon. I think the answer to this is that Jasnah has many active agents in her spy network, she could set up communication sites that she monitors and still effectively communicates with her agents (though not quite in real time, like she would be able to do if she could use a spanreed herself. 2) Ivory can become a shardblade, this implies that he can change his shape (like other spren weapons) when being used as a weapon. It's probably a function of how he views himself, that he only changes in size but is proportionally the same no matter what size he takes on. This implies a certain rigidity in his self image, which I think maps well to his focus on logical consistency. 3)To be able to turn something into something else you have to know about it in the first place. Rosharans don't know about Plutonium. This is a fun WoB to read, spoilered below because of length: Spoiler Phantine At the risk of getting too technical, is there anything besides lack of knowledge preventing a soulcaster from turning some rocks into a bunch of plutonium and exploding? I know you've got some rules attached to time bubbles to avoid those going nuclear so I wouldn't be surprised if there was something or another. Brandon Sanderson Well, Soulcasting isn't fission or fusion. It's a spiritual transformation process, not a physical one, and so you don't have to worry about some of these issues. There IS historical precedent of accidentally setting off fission reactions in the cosmere using the magic, but that was a different process. Soulcasting is actually pretty safe. (Well, on a grand scale.) You could end up irradiating yourself, though, which wouldn't be very fun. If you know what you were doing, making plutonium or uranium on Roshar wouldn't be difficult. The problem is more a matter of knowledge, and room for scientific exploration. They're unlikely to make atom bombs for the same reason they haven't made gunpowder. Once they figure out that some substances are important, they can learn to make them with Soulcasting (assuming they have Radiants) but some substances just don't occur naturally--so discovering them in the first place is difficult, and would require more modern scientific process. Phantine Okay, just to clarify here (since I'm not sure how up you are on early nuke designs) A big enough chunk of uranium or plutonium will explode regardless of whether it's in a bomb or not. Early bomb designs just slammed two smaller chunks together so they'd be one big chunk. For plutonium 'big enough' is about 35 pounds in one place - a chunk somewhere between the size of baseball and volleyball. If I understand properly, people can soulcast from the cognitive realm into the physical, which implies once we get into a more modern stormlight setting soulcasters will make nuclear submarines look like small potatoes. Brandon Sanderson Slamming two chunks together so they became one big chunk seems an understatement, from what I remember. I'm under the impression that you had to use a great deal of explosive force to ram them together in order to set off a viable fission reaction. Doesn't it have to be compressed somewhat in order to react with itself? I'll admit, it's been a long time since I've looked at this, but I remember glancing it over, and deciding that you'd need more than just soulcasting to get it to happen. Though it's not outside of reason that a soulcaster could learn to create super-dense plutonium. The problem is one of understanding, however. Just like it's totally possible that we, with our current technology, could figure out some huge breakthrough in science allowing FTL or other incredible discoveries. But we don't have the understanding to pull it off yet. In a modern setting, however, a lot of these complaints go out the window. Let's just say that this isn't the only reason a modern society that can instantly transmute one substance to another is potentially a very interesting place. Phantine You're totally right that everyone currently uses an 'implosion' style compression design. It's a lot more bang for your buck, and you need less radioactive material to work with. They're also a lot safer, because just sitting around they're well below critical mass - without the power-boosting tricks they basically can't go off. The old "nobody uses these anymore" designs were 'Gun-Type'. Very simple - shoot a uranium bullet into the center of a uranium ring (or vice versa). Inefficient as heck (the Hiroshima bomb only fissioned 1.4% of its uranium), but also super simple to put together. Despite being simple to build, gun-types were also super unsafe relative to modern implosion devices (among other worries, dropping a gun-type device into the ocean could potentially set it off because of how neutrons react with water). Also, getting the timing perfect on the fissile 'bullet' was a problem, so practically speaking it could only be done with uranium. After WWII, the only use the US ever had for gun-types was in bunker busters and nuclear artillery (because of course that was a good idea). Darn, that post turned out longer than I expected it to. Anyway, I'm looking forward to see you make something really cool out of a post-scarcity transmutropolis setting (especially since the liespren would be in charge of nuclear treaties), and also my roommate just pointed out all the laying out of nuclear bomb details is pointless if they could just make antimatter instead. D'oh. Brandon Sanderson This is useful information for me, but my gut says that Rosharans couldn't get this working with their current tech level. That said, the REAL issue (as you mentioned in your original question) is knowledge, not feasibility. They'd have to know how to make the right kind of Uranium or Plutonium--and would need to be able to get this across to a soulcaster in a way that works, then THEY would need to get this across to spren. Cross that hurdle, and I suppose it's not at all implausible to imagine Alethi during Dalinar's era with nukes. I suspect the right kind of fabrial could make a trigger device to match ring and bullet at the right time. Depends on how quickly it needs to be going, though. source I think Jasnah is smart enough and capable enough, that given enough time to work on the problem, she would stand a pretty good chance against a Fullborn, but I think the Vegas odds would be 3:1 for the Fullborn win. I still think A Dysian Aimian (even just an Elsecalling Radiant) stands the best chance of taking out the Fullborn. If the Dysian Aimian was bonded to all 10 honor blades, he would have Access to the 10 surges that were used to Destroy a freaking planet, and given that he is a deathless immortal, he would have time to figure out how to take out an invading Fullborn. The Fullborn might say "The power to destroy a Planet is insignificant next to the Power of the Metallic Arts", but I think he would be quite wrong. Edited January 27, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
digitalbusker he/him Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 @hoiditthroughthegrapevine oh, Ivory as a Shardnet. I should have realized. And yes, Jasnah doesn't know about plutonium. That is definitely the point at which the theory stops being plausible, yep. But you've still got your hordeling leaving Shadesmar to Soulcast. It's an extra step. 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, digitalbusker said: But you've still got your hordeling leaving Shadesmar to Soulcast. It's an extra step. Good point, it would be possible to destroy the Fullborn's metal reserves without ever leaving Shadesmar! Assuming that the metals that the Fullborn brought with him to Roshar would appear as beads in Shadesmar, the Dysian Aimian's hordelings could comb through the sea of glass beads (and if they glow like they do on Scadrial (which I am actually less sure about now that I think about it) they could be easier to find). The cremlings that are looking for the Fullborn's metals could use the Adhesion surge to create a bubble of air around their head (like this WoB spoilered below says is possible) and they have lots of appendages to touch souls of ideas to find the souls of the Fullborn's metals. Then from the complete safety of Shadesmar they can convert all of the Fullborn's metal into chull dung. Spoiler Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Could a Windrunner in Shardplate travel to other planets? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Uh, theoretically possible. Take a long time. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, it would. 'Cause he wouldn't need to breathe, if he's got enough Stormlight. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yeah, well, I mean, they can control pressure, so. You'd need oxygen scrubbers, but they can also, so... you can create a ball of air around yourself with their power anyway, so-- source Also, would be interesting if they could find the souls of the idea of the Fullborn's metal minds, and as an experiment that only would cost one cremling, try having that cremling holding the shadesmar bead with the soul of the idea of the metal mind transition to the Physical Realm. What happens? Who knows, but it only would cost a cremling to find out. This might be a lengthy process, but it is a sure route to victory for the honorblade wielding Dysian Aimian. Slow yet inevitable depletion of the finite metallic reserves of the Fullborn from a position of untouchable safety. Dispatching the Feruchemist who can burn Atium after the metal reserves are gone would probably still be a messy affair, but what's a few centuries to a deathless immortal to grow some new cells of its corporeal being back? Edited January 27, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine typo, like usual 2
Spoolofwhool Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 22 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Ok, so Jasnah's spy network delivers to her a detailed drawing of the Fullborn, including the location of his various metal minds. So, while he is on the privy, she elsecalls her hand out from behind the Fullborn and Yoink, there goes the Fullborn's goldmind. Then later, while the Fullborn is eating some spicy curry, Jasnah's else calling hand comes out and turns his brain into soulcast grain. Then while he is drooling on the floor leaking grain from his nose, she quickly removes the remainder of his metal minds and turns him into soulcast grain and bakes herself a loaf of Fullborn, which she eats with a mild curry later. Elsecalling doesn't work like that. It's an all or nothing transfer between realms. 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: Elsecalling doesn't work like that. It's an all or nothing transfer between realms. This makes sense, otherwise Elsecalling would be too OP if you could send just a single body part to the Cognitive Realm. It would be like that Kids in the Hall sketch where the guy walks around looking at his index finger and thumb overlaying a distant person's head and squeezes them together saying "I'm squishing your head".
Spoolofwhool Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: This makes sense, otherwise Elsecalling would be too OP if you could send just a single body part to the Cognitive Realm. It would be like that Kids in the Hall sketch where the guy walks around looking at his index finger and thumb overlaying a distant person's head and squeezes them together saying "I'm squishing your head". Yeah, because what's happening is that elsecalling creates a perpendicularity which allows you to convert your body to investiture and shift your awareness into the cognitive realm. Trying to move just one part would probably just turn your hand into investiture, or physical matter, but leave your awareness still in the other realm so you wouldn't be able to do anything with the part there. 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/26/2018 at 9:17 AM, ShardplateJoe III said: none of the other abilities that we know of will counter a shardblade, The Metalminds themselves can(TLR/Miles level Atium/Goldminds at least, maybe the Steel too..) Quote Yata Could a filled (fully feruchemical charge) metalmind block a Shardblade (or at least, resist a bit)? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it could. Excellent question. On 1/26/2018 at 0:27 PM, Calderis said: Mistborn spoilers  Hide contents Marsh has 22 spikes. There are 32 powers. We don't know which powers he doesn't have. I'll just toss you to one of the ancient theories where that very issue got discussed, and some follow-up discussions. We know(or can infer) quite a bit more than we think we can. On 1/26/2018 at 0:32 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: But all that compounding of metals probably leads to the need to take a metal dump, so using her network of spies, Jasnah, privy to when nature calls for the Fullborn, Why would..? The metals would be burned away, and gone. (Tis why they don't get metal poisoning). As for the privy, have the not yet WoB. On 1/26/2018 at 0:59 PM, Storms! said: What if someone bonded all 10 Honorblades, granting them every surge twice? Could they fight a Fullborn? Getting the surges twice probably doesn't do what you think it does(and your Surgebinding efficiency might take a major nosedive). That said, having more powers at your disposal is always a plus, because boss fights need to have some variety to them. On 1/26/2018 at 1:42 PM, Storms! said: I have a question. Does compounding a metal give you savant-like abilities? Because there are trace metals in the blood (how Inquisitors are able to see). If the Fullborn has a simultaneous Push+Pull on these trace metals, while increasing weight with iron, he could shred the cremlings to pieces all at once. You would be burning metals, so that might speed up your path to being a savant, but the compounding itself doesn't do anything similar to Savanthood. As for seeing/pushing on those trace metals, both of our examples of this (Kar and TLR) were savants, although in TLR's case, I think his raw power might've let him do it anyway. On 1/27/2018 at 7:17 AM, digitalbusker said: Fullborn doesn't give you a way to affect the Cognitive, so you can afford to take a little time. Affect it, no. But they can theoretically get there. Yata has put it more eloquently than I, so quoth him: Quote Honestly as I said before I don't know how. But Brandon stated there is a way to worldhop built into the Metallic Arts and as TLR has all the powers...he would be able to use this way too. On 1/27/2018 at 9:23 AM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Assuming that the metals that the Fullborn brought with him to Roshar would appear as beads in Shadesmar I'm not sure they would. Clothing and weapons that people are holding/wearing don't appear as separate beads in Shadesmar(IIRC), and the Fullborn could simply internalize them like Miles died, or have them pierce their skin, like TLR and the Inquisitorius did(minus the Hemalurgy, not that that matters) Oh, you're talking about extra metals... A smart Fullborn would keep their Metalminds on their person, so the spare metal is unlikely to be invested. It'd look just like normal metal, in both realms. I suppose metal is metal, so it's kinda replaceable(for the most part, alloys will be a pain). It'd limit their total reserves somewhat, but in the end, I see this as more of a delaying tactic than anything definitive. 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said: You would be burning metals, so that might speed up your path to being a savant, but the compounding itself doesn't do anything similar to Savanthood. As for seeing/pushing on those trace metals, both of our examples of this (Kar and TLR) were savants, although in TLR's case, I think his raw power might've let him do it anyway. Ok, one more try at this. So to counter the stratagem of the steel push cremling shredder, the Dysian Aimian prepares a special group of cremlings by soulcasting their carapace to Aluminum. There would necessarily be small parts of the joints that would have to stay soft and flexible, but the majority of the exterior carpace could be soulcast to Aluminum thereby negating the majority of the targeted Allomantic effects of the Fullborn. Then this special cadre of Allomantic resistant hordelings would institute operation remove the metal minds. First the aluminum hordelings would disorient the Fullborn, using a combination of the Blinding Flash that Renarin used to dispatch the Thunderclast and the cohesion surge to partially submerge the fullborn in the softened then hardened rock. Other non aluminum cremlings would use the surge of teleportation to appear right by the fullborn in a swarm and work collectively with the aluminum cremlings to remove the Fullborn's metal minds, while keeping up the pulsing blinding Illumination surge (to attempt to negate the Atium vision of the Fullborn). Meanwhile, another group of cremlings (say 500) are teleported high above the fullborn in a distributed bubble pattern each carrying a small rock, then they all lash themselves and their rocks towards the Fullborn (using 16 full lashings), then when sufficiently close yet still far away from the Fullborn they soulcast their rocks to hollow shells of aluminum with the part of the internal cavity closest to the fullborn soulcast to lead, the rest soulcast to air. Then they teleport to safety while 500 Allomantically inert hollow tip bullets fly towards the Fullborn (which upon impact would pancake out, possibly taking off limbs, destroying metalminds not through a surge but rather through sheer physics). While these are flying towards the Fullborn the aluminum carapaced hordelings continue their constant blinding Illuminations and cohesion ground melting surges to negate both the Fullborn's feruchemical speed and Atium vision.
Storms! he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 6 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: There would necessarily be small parts of the joints that would have to stay soft and flexible So this would protect the vitals against the steel pushing shredder, but not the limbs/appendages. The Fullborn can still shred the legs/claws/wings off, preventing the cremlings from removing the critical metalminds. With no way to attack/defend, it's basically swatting flies with while burning Atium and Pewter with steel speed. Then, when the second hoard teleports up into the air, the Fullborn throws up a speed bubble to 1) finish off the first hoard and 2) laugh at the useless attack. The speed bubble then drops and the aluminum bullets fly. Devastating... for a few seconds, before gold compounding kicks in and instantly heals. Then it's time for offense. The Fullborn tosses the Ettmetal primer cube full of Leacher power into the main hoard of cremlings, temporarily removing all Stormlight. Then the Fullborn uses a Wayne-style attack to trap/eliminate isolated groups of cremlings. Using Pewter and Feruchemical strength, along with Atium and steel speed, he makes short work of each hoard, until there are either none left or at least not enough left to threaten him. Fullborn wins.   @The One Who Connects Thanks for the insight, now who you got!?!  2
ShardplateJoe III Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Storms! said: The speed bubble then drops and the aluminum bullets fly. Devastating... for a few seconds, before gold compounding kicks in and instantly heals. One problem, aluminum stops gold healing. Quote Kurkistan What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife? Brandon Sanderson Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay. Kurkistan Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug? Brandon Sanderson Oh, you're talking about Thugs? It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them. Kurkistan Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs. Brandon Sanderson What was he thinking of...? There is some weird interaction but... Kurkistan In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..." Brandon Sanderson No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers. Â 2
Storms! he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, ShardplateJoe III said: One problem, aluminum stops gold healing. Thanks for the infor Joe, I hadn't seen that WoB. Very interesting, but we can work around that. Steelspeed+Atium should be very good for dodging bullets. At least good enough to protect the vitals. Then you open a new speed bubble, pick the aluminum out and heal the wounds. Â Side note: Is it even possible to Soulcast something into aluminum? I can see it being impossible to create something completely immune to Investiture out of Investiture 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: the majority of the exterior carapace could be soulcast to Aluminum thereby negating the majority of the targeted Allomantic effects of the Fullborn. pulsing blinding Illumination surge (to attempt to negate the Atium vision of the Fullborn). 1. The Aluminum might prevent him from push/pulling on them, but only the aluminum parts would lack Atium Shadows. If this Fullborn has Atium, he'll be fine. Case in point: 2. What prevents our Fullborn from simply closing his eyes? It's not like he needs them. Quote Burning atium expands the user's mind to be able to accept and process all of the information, even allowing the Allomancer to passively dodge incoming attacks from behind. And while Aluminum might remove the targeted magical effects, aluminum doesn't prevent him from bludgeoning them with his fists. And if the Hordeling Dome is just keeping him contained, then the Aluminum Hordelings wouldn't even really be protected, which is even worse, since that'd cause the deaths of the specialized Hordelings. That puts a damper on the feasibility of the plan. (On second thought, I may have misread you) If they are all swarming him to remove his Metalminds, what happens to that containing dome? If there's no dome, he can tap pewter to become really big, pushing them outwards with him. Then stop tapping to revert to normal size, and F-Steel out of the gaps made by spreading them out. 9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: So to counter the stratagem of the steel push cremling shredder, I know this idea was to counter the Steel Push method of beating your Hordeling Snow-Globe , but the biggest issue with beating a Mistborn, Feruchemist or prepared Elantrian is their versatility. There are several other powers that have to be beaten too, and they can wreak havoc with other aspects of your idea. I'll get the big three out of the way, then move on to specifics. Atium was discussed above. F-Zinc grants mental speed, which basically buys him large swaths of internal time to mentally react to things and formulate a plan for your physical actions. Compounded Steel would give our Fullborn several seconds(possibly minutes) to react to and physically deal with some of the Cremlings, with or without the boosts from A-Atium or F-Zinc. 9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: pulsing blinding Illumination surge Here's an unconventional one: F-Tin. Why see when you can hear? You store senses separately, so store your Sight(largely or entirely negating the flash grenades) and navigate mostly by tapping Compounded Hearing, with a combination of practice, Mental Speed and/or Atium to help you cope. (Disclaimer: this one isn't likely to have been done, because Fullborn are overconfident little runts. But a clever Ferring might have practiced, given the notable weaknesses of A-Tin in the face of teching up: flash grenades, sonic weapons, distracting/disorienting smells, sudden bursts of heat/cold, sensory overload tactics, etc...) Actually, Storms! was on to something good here: Chromium. Can't use blinding illumination if you don't have any Stormlight. 9 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: then when sufficiently close yet still far away from the Fullborn they soulcast their rocks to hollow shells of aluminum with the part of the internal cavity closest to the fullborn soulcast to lead, the rest soulcast to air. You have a lot of faith in the Fullborn's apparent inability to look up. He's surrounded by moving Hordelings, so I'd look up at least once to see if it was a dome or simply walls. If they are circling him, then the top of the dome would be the weaker spot to try and break through(unless they are moving in some strange haphazard pattern, which presents its own problems with maintaining full coverage, something F-Zinc&Steel can take advantage of), so that'd be more looking up. If they look up even once, they can catch on to your plan and make a move to escape. Secondly, you're gonna have a heck of a time performing that triple soulcasting. Performing three consecutive Soulcastings is gonna burn through a decent amount of Stormlight, especially following those.. 16 Lashings per Hordeling, I think you said? Plus the teleporting, the blinding, the etc.., how much Stormlight does your team have on them? Soulcasting the shell into aluminum has to happen last, or else you can't affect the interior. On the subject of the Aluminum, it can't be lashed, so your projectiles may actually slow down once they let go of them. If terminal velocity has been exceeded, they will start to slow once their source of propulsion is gone. And that's not to mention that your item may be more floaty now that it's hollow and possibly lighter(depends on the lead:air ratio in the interior), which might slow it's descent even more. I'm not entirely certain you can soulcast just the interior of something anyway(separate discussion), but I'm fairly confidant that you couldn't do it with an Honorblade. The Spren Bond is much more versatile than the mechanical method, which does translate to the Honorblades. Quote Darkness (paraphrased) First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge. As for escaping this dome of Hordelings, Storms! was on to something here too. Quickly leap towards one edge of the dome, put up a bubble, and let chaos ensue. Drop the bubble, and F-Steel out of the inevitable gap. This doesn't necessarily prevent the Hordelings from doing another dome, nor does it prevent our Fullborn from escaping again, but there are other things that could be done. During the chaos the bubble causes, Double-Pewter makes for quite a destructive edge. Makes for one heck of a party trick on it's own, since you could suddenly grow in both size & power and sideswipe a chunk of the Hordeling dome. And you can do this without warning, possibly in two places at once(bit of F-Steel for a deadly spin cycle ?) Our Fullborn could also be back against a wall, limiting Hordeling lines of approach(and screwing up that flying pattern). Soulcasting the wall to air just lets the Fullborn escape, since he'll notice the rush of air and be able to Zinc+Steel his way out before the Hordelings can properly surround him. 10 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: cohesion surge to partially submerge the fullborn in the softened then hardened rock. The Lord Ruler got beheaded. I'm not sure ripping off and regrowing a foot here and there would even faze our Fullborn. And then you lose the element of surprise, making the strategy much riskier to pull off. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There are no half-measures when containing a Fullborn. On 9/8/2017 at 8:40 PM, The One Who Connects said: People on earth can escape handcuffs by breaking their wrists(and their thumb as well I think) to fit through the openings. A gold compounder can easily escape any bindings of that type, as they can heal the unnaturally bent limbs and broken bones after wriggling out of their manacles. They could also just remove the hand, foot, arm, or leg that is bound up and regrow it. You would have to completely encase said compounder in something to prevent escape, at which point the ocean is rendered irrelevant and you have to wait for them to use up their reserves(healing through the lack of food, water, or air). Depending on what material they are encased in, they might even be able to wear it down over time, the way friction wears out a pair of jeans. Either way, they are gonna live for a long while. 1 hour ago, Storms! said: Is it even possible to Soulcast something into aluminum? Yes. It's in the book. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] ...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting? Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant. 2
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Storms! said: Side note: Is it even possible to Soulcast something into aluminum? I can see it being impossible to create something completely immune to Investiture out of Investiture There's WoB that is asked with the assumption that Aluminum can be soulcast (couldn't find direct confirmation): Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] So, we know that things can be Soulcast into aluminum. But can aluminum itself be Soulcast into something else? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] It resists all forms of Investiture trying to change it to things. source And there's also this WoB which is interesting: Quote Questioner Would aluminum give an atium shadow? Like if someone threw an aluminum spear? Brandon Sanderson The aluminum would not give an atium shadow. Good question. source And @The One Who Connects this addresses all most all of your incredibly well thought arguments for the Fullborn's chances. So battlefield tactics are all about picking the time and place you fight a battle, so I could still see a scenario where the Sleepless with all 10 honorblades still wins against the Fullborn. The Sleepless waits until 2 conditions are met, the Fullborn is out someplace far from a population center for a somewhat extended period of time and a Highstorm is coming. Like a master chess player, the sleepless has time to set up all of his pieces in advance waiting for this exact conflux of events. In Shadesmar, an array of hordelings is set up in a 1/8 mile perimeter around the Fullborn. In the same proximate location in shadesmar is another cremling that has the soul of the idea of the ground that the fullborn is currently on, and in the Physical Realm a series of cremlings are lined up heading East to West, starting at the margin of the stormwall. Further, in advance of this operation 3 special ballistic shells have been developed, small pebbles have been soulcast into aluminum, a soft lump of tallow has been shaped into a cylindrical 6 inch shell, which after being filled with the aluminum pebbles and topped with more flat sculpted tallow has been soulcast to gold, making the shell Allomantically untouchable. Now that all the pieces are in place, the Checkmate begins. The cremling holding the soul of the idea of the ground that the Fullborn is walking on soulcasts that to lava (youch). This disables the Fullborn's ability to use a chromium bubble as they would need to first get out of the lava. Then a group of flying hordelings materializes from Shadesmar in random pattern around the fullborn who is currently using a lot of super speed and gold compounding to deal with his lava swimming, primarily as a distraction to keep him focused away from the real threat. They still attack him with the Honorblades like in the cremling death cloud but they really are a feint. Then at the margins of the lava field 3 groups of cremlings with their special ballistic shells phase in the Physical realm, having already formed the shape of a large artillery battery from a navel destroyer (bodies locked together into a large cylinder with an interior diameter of 6 inches and a barrel length of 7 feet. The cremling assualt batteries are set up at 120 degree angles from the position of the Fullborn (so like the lines in the peace sign, missing only the line directly in front of the fullborn). Then simultaneously in all three cremling assault batteries, cremlings in the the barrel of the canon use successive gravitational lashings to accelerate the shell and finally cremlings at the muzzle of the canon soulcast the gold shell to air as it escapes the muzzle, releasing high speed aluminum scatter shot projectiles, which like a traditional shotgun would likely be imbedded in the body of the Fullborn and thusly unhealable. Also, the individual aluminum buckshot pebbles would not have Atium shadows, making them nearly unavoidable. The Fullborn's leaching ability would be negated by the string of cremlings spread along the path of the highstorm so that at least one cremling was constantly at the margin of the stormwall and able to draw unlimited investiture. Assuming the Fullborn is able to somehow survive the Cremling assault battery, then the Cremling hordes that are set up in a 1/8 mile perimeter from the Fullborn use the Cohesion surge to turn the rock in front of them to liquid viscous sludge, and using gravitational lashings they send a Tsuami of liquid rock at the fullborn, increasing the volume and the height of the flood of liquid rock until finally the concentric closing towering wall of rock water meets the fullborn and it is turned back solid. This is the Lews Therin Telamon attack, and Roshar would have a nice new Fullbornmount gracing it's skyline. This is entirely plausible I think, what possible holes do you guys see? Edited January 30, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine 3
Storms! he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 First things first, you get an upvote for relentlessness. Now (deep breath), here we go: As the lava pool forms, Fullborn decreases weight and pushes off of the trace metals in the lava, escaping the pool Speed bubble goes up, Fullborn uses compounding gold to regrow feet/part of legs. Then, Fullborn uses Tin/taps eyesight to examine it's surroundings, while increasing mental speed to process what he sees. Fullborn pees a little Fullborn then sacks up, drops the speed bubble and gets the hell away from the lava. Feet securely on solid ground, FB then sends out a Duralumin enhanced soothing, stopping all cremlings not encased in aluminum. FB eats some more Duralumin and uses it to increase the range of his Steel Shredder, destroying all vulnerable cremlings, and launching thousands of tiny rocks (from the ground) in all directions. Tiny rocks kill many of the aluminum-cased cremlings Use steel speed to quickly swallow metal vial (which is stored in an aluminum vial, so it would not be launched in the Push) before cremling can do anything sneaky Use Pushes and Pulls to move erratically (gotta love those trace metals in the rock of the ground) and charge the cremlings closest to the Highstorm As he gets close, throw up speed bubble and uses Feruchemical steel/pewter to smash aluminum cremlings with huge rocks. Use F-speed and push/pulls to move quickly/erratically, to prevent being ambushed/surprised again Methodically seek and destroy remaining cremlings using tactics 8-10 Game. Set. Match 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Storms! said: Game. Set. Match Well played, well played. 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: which after being filled with the aluminum pebbles and topped with more flat sculpted tallow has been soulcast to gold, making it the case Allomantically untouchable. If the case itself is gold, it's very Allomantically touchable. (Haven't read the rest of the post yet, so I'll assume this was a mistype on your part for now) 14 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: The cremling holding the soul of the idea of the ground that the Fullborn is walking on soulcasts that to lava (youch). I'm not that up to date on those Shadesmar Beads. Tell me, how big of an area does one singular bead effect? That could do a number on your plan, since the lava pool might not be that wide and/or deep. Too shallow/skinny, and that's minimal healing expended getting out. Too deep, and you could end up draining the lava into a cave, which throws a wrench into both parties respective plans. The Fullborn could also grow in size via F-Pewter, allowing them to escape faster via taking longer steps(also get's more of the body out of the lava, which is less healing). 12 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: around the fullborn who is currently using a lot of super speed and gold compounding to deal with his lava swimming, primarily as a distraction to keep him focused away from the real threat F-Steel lets a Fullborn move quite fast and they have no reason to suddenly slow down after getting out of the lava. Keep moving fast, and the Hordelings distraction isn't too relevant when it's far behind you. 21 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: They still attack him with the Honorblades like in the cremling death cloud but they really are a feint. Oh right, this. The Honorblades would probably have an Atium Shadow, which would be fun. Even if they don't, they aren't entirely useful here. They don't cause physical wounds, so any Metalminds would stay on a dead limb. Regardless of the type of damage they inflict, F-Gold can heal through it. And our Fullborn can potentially block using their Metalminds, which will probably surprise both sides. 25 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Then at the margins of the lava field 3 groups of cremlings with their special ballistic shells phase in the Physical realm, having already formed the shape of a large artillery battery from a navel destroyer cremlings in the the barrel of the canon use successive gravitational lashings to accelerate the shell and finally cremlings at the muzzle of the canon soulcast the gold shell to air as it escapes the muzzle (Oh, you've essentially made Rail-Guns. Props for ingenuity, I guess..) Depending on the speed, I'm not sure if the casing would be within range long enough to Soulcast it into air. 28 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: releasing high speed aluminum scatter shot projectiles, which like a traditional shotgun would likely be imbedded in the body of the Fullborn and thusly unhealable. Also, the individual aluminum buckshot pebbles would not have Atium shadows, making them nearly unavoidable. So.. these are pebbles turned into Aluminum. Not the most aerodynamic things, pebbles. I suppose if you have enough of them.... However, this plan hinges on the Fullborn quite literally "standing there and being shot." After having the ground they stood on be turned to lava, why would they stand still? Actually, your rail guns phase in while the Fullborn is still in the lava/dealing with the Honorblade wielding Hordelings. This presents about... 3 problems: Aim: If they start the firing process while our Fullborn is still moving, they could easily end up mostly missing as our Fullborn dodges something else entirely. And if this lava pool is rather wide, you could completely miss if you aim at the wrong section of "shoreline." And there's the aforementioned Steelrunning speed. Can't really lead your shot when your target can turn on a dime without slowing down. Flak: If our Fullborn is still dealing with the Honorblade wielding Hordeling distraction, those aluminum pellets could very easily take them out instead. You wanted them to have enough velocity to embed within a body, but not a through-and-through, so if they hit the Hordelings, they aren't gonna hit our Fullborn. Honorblades: Having Honorblades being held by flying creatures above a pool of lava is a ridiculously egregious move. Honorblades only grant powers when they are wielded(or desummoned by their wielder). A Fullborn is quite capable of killing Hordelings, and the one's with weapons are priority targets(for obvious reasons). If one of them dies, that Honorblade would fall into the lava pool. While this probably wouldn't do much to the blade itself, good luck getting it back, especially if the pool is deep. And if he kills the Hordelings with Jezrien&Nalan's Honorblades, bye bye rail gun. (If he gets very lucky and wrecks the ones with Battar&Kelek's Honorblades immediately, no more transportation, trapping your rail guns in the CR ) Honorblades x2: Shardblades can be moved by a Duralumin Push/Pull. It stands to reason that the same can be done to an Honorblade. If the Hordelings got hit with a "suddenly no more Surgebinding," that'd be a problem. 57 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: the Cremlings hordes what are set up in a 1/16 mile perimeter from the Fullborn use the Cohesion surge to turn the rock in front of them to liquid viscous sludge, and using gravitational lashings they send a Tsuami of liquid rock at the fullborn, Oh, I'm pulling consecutive 1-2-3's... Range: Surge Range isn't infinite, so there wouldn't be as much liquid rock as you are probably imagining. Lashing Liquid: For the second time in two days, Yata has put it more eloquently than I, so quoth him: Quote I think you may potentially awaken whatever you want...but it's probably a matter of Cognitive Aspect of the blood. You may end using your breath to awaken a single drop of blood or maybe the whole pool.(Yes, it's about Awakening, but the Realmatics should be the same. And as the WoB in the Awakened Toupee thread shows, it takes time for things to cognitively associate themselves with each other(the castle and the rug). The liquid rock may not have had enough time to associate itself as one pool.) Sightlines: It's not like the hordelings behind the "tsunami" can see through it, so our Fullborn could run through it before they know it happened. And 330 feet(1/16th mile) isn't that far, especially for a Steelrunner. Range x2: Surge Range isn't infinite, so our Hordelings would have to follow the liquid rock in order to re-solidify it. 52 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: The Fullborn's leaching ability would be negated by the string of cremlings spread along the path of the highstorm so that at least one cremling was constantly at the margin of the stormwall and able to draw unlimited investiture. Do we have confirmation that Stormlight would be shared across the full Sleepless & Hordelings? (more for personal curiosity than as a rebuttal) 1
Storms! he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 This thread has gotten completely out of hand and I couldn't be happier about it 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Storms! said: This thread has gotten completely out of hand and I couldn't be happier about it Oh right, this discussion is your fault Honestly, this is pretty tame (nearly a half hour in between the big posts is a decent wait). The real surprise is that a "xx vs Fullborn" thread got 3 pages of discussion, and could potentially get more. It's nice to have new people coming up with new ideas here and there. 2
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Storms! said: Fullborn pees a little First off, only have one upvote to give you, but I spat out a little pop when I read that. Hi-lar-i-ous! I officially concede defeat, not because I think this wouldn't be a fairly matched fight, but because we don't know the mechanics of Surgebinding well enough and more importantly we don't know how the use of Investiture would work for a composite being like a Dysian Aimian. I think that I've pushed the envelope of speculation a tad too far, making some pretty bald assumptions. That said I will address some of the very awesome points that you @Storms made: 1 hour ago, Storms! said: As the lava pool forms, Fullborn decreases weight and pushes off of the trace metals in the lava, escaping the pool Ok, so the events of the Sleepless' attack are happening simultaneously, with a distributed consciousness with manifold eyes and an expansive mind, the sleepless can target the cremling assault canons in a pattern where the aluminum scattershot is likely to hit even an airborn Fullborn. Very good point about the weight and allomantic push off of the trace metals by the way. 1 hour ago, Storms! said: Fullborn then sacks up, drops the speed bubble and gets the hell away from the lava. Feet securely on solid ground, FB then sends out a Duralumin enhanced soothing, stopping all cremlings not encased in aluminum. FB eats some more Duralumin and uses it to increase the range of his Steel Shredder, destroying all vulnerable cremlings, and launching thousands of tiny rocks (from the ground) in all directions. Tiny rocks kill many of the aluminum-cased cremlings Use steel speed to quickly swallow metal vial (which is stored in an aluminum vial, so it would not be launched in the Push) before cremling can do anything sneaky Use Pushes and Pulls to move erratically (gotta love those trace metals in the rock of the ground) and charge the cremlings closest to the Highstorm As he gets close, throw up speed bubble and uses Feruchemical steel/pewter to smash aluminum cremlings with huge rocks. Use F-speed and push/pulls to move quickly/erratically, to prevent being ambushed/surprised again Methodically seek and destroy remaining cremlings using tactics 8-10 If able to escape the aluminum scatter shot, this is a very effective plan, but the remaining cremlings that aren't immediately destroyed by the now pee-soaked and enraged Fullborn would transition back into shadesmar and think about lessons learned. Now to address some of the again awesome points that you @The One Who Connects made: 59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: If the case itself is gold, it's very Allomantically touchable. (Haven't read the rest of the post yet, so I'll assume this was a mistype on your part for now) I've only read the entire mistborn series once, and you are correct that I was mistakenly thinking that Steel Pushes/Iron Pulls had effects on only metal with Iron in it (pretty big error), but lets say that the shot gets off because the firing of the Cremling cannon takes the fraction of second that Fullborn uses to respond to the lava pit. 59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: I'm not that up to date on those Shadesmar Beads. Tell me, how big of an area does one singular bead effect? That could do a number on your plan, since the lava pool might not be that wide and/or deep. Too shallow/skinny, and that's minimal healing expended getting out. Too deep, and you could end up draining the lava into a cave, which throws a wrench into both parties respective plans. Ok, for this point, I would point you to the fact that Jasnah at the Battle of Thaylen fields was able to soulcast stone stairs out of Air. I have a hard time believing that every molecule of air has been thought of with sufficient depth to form a singular corresponding bead in shadesmar, so this implies that partial soulcasting of a large and encompassing soul of an idea is possible. So if the Aimian had the soul of the idea of the ground, it stands to reason that they should be able to decide the nature and dimension (given enough stormlight) to affect the specific transformation that they want. Jasnah also turns the air into a wall of pitch that a flying Fuzed crashes through before setting it alight. Admittedly this was right after the 3 Realms had been merged and Soulcasting was easier because the Cognitive Realm had been brought closer to the Physical Realm, but it still seems like it is implied that a large substrate can be changed based on the cognitive intent of the soulcaster. 59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Oh right, this. The Honorblades would probably have an Atium Shadow, which would be fun. Even if they don't, they aren't entirely useful here. They don't cause physical wounds, so any Metalminds would stay on a dead limb. Regardless of the type of damage they inflict, F-Gold can heal through it. And our Fullborn can potentially block using their Metalminds, which will probably surprise both sides. Maybe I mis-remember this, but isn't it possible to dismiss bonded honorblades (to have them go back to your spirit web)? If this isn't possible then it's unlikely that the individual cremlings of the Dysian Aimian can individually manifest the actual blade. If they can't be dismissed, then like you said this would be a horribly stupid thing to do to bring your blades over an open pit of lava. 59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Oh, I'm pulling consecutive 1-2-3's... Range: Surge Range isn't infinite, so there wouldn't be as much liquid rock as you are probably imagining. Lashing Liquid: For the second time in two days, Yata has put it more eloquently than I, so quoth him: Quote I think you may potentially awaken whatever you want...but it's probably a matter of Cognitive Aspect of the blood. You may end using your breath to awaken a single drop of blood or maybe the whole pool.(Yes, it's about Awakening, but the Realmatics should be the same. And as the WoB in the Awakened Toupee thread shows, it takes time for things to cognitively associate themselves with each other(the castle and the rug). The liquid rock may not have had enough time to associate itself as one pool.) Sightlines: It's not like the hordelings behind the "tsunami" can see through it, so our Fullborn could run through it before they know it happened. And 330 feet(1/16th mile) isn't that far, especially for a Steelrunner. Range x2: Surge Range isn't infinite, so our Hordelings would have to follow the liquid rock in order to re-solidify it. Reponses to particulars in the quote below (allows me to do a numbered list): Quote The cremlings would be following the Tsuami inwards towards the fullborn, lashing themselves to keep up with the trailing end of the wave. Good point about lashing liquid and the Cognitive aspect of the liquid. But a possible counter argument to this is a possible explanation of the mechanics of doing this itself. If you lashed the ground with the gravitational surge, the majority of the ground would resist this lashing due to it's rigidity and the fact that it is a unitary whole connected to the rest of the planets crust, but the portion that is in a liquid state would be more free to respond to the lashing. So the answer applying the lasing to the whole general ground, the mobile viscous liquid rock would be the only element of the ground likely to respond to this lashing. One or two flying cremlings far removed from the battle should be able to give the Sleepless all the sightlines on the position of the fullborn that the Aimian would need. Addressed in point 1.  59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Do we have confirmation that Stormlight would be shared across the full Sleepless & Hordelings? (more for personal curiosity than as a rebuttal) Nope, that was a speculative assumption based on the fact that Dysian Aimian seem to be a vast self aware matrix of Connection. Seems plausible that this would allow them to share stormlight between their constituent parts, but this might also have something like the inverse square law that applies (where Investiture shared between connected cremlings would be inversely proportional to the distance away from the Stormlight). One other thing that is interesting to think about is could a Sleepless lash only one of it's cremlings? That would be like Kaladin lashing only one strand of his hair, or lashing just his fist before a punch, can you affect the spiritual gravitational connection of just one small constituent piece of someone or something or does it have to affect a cognitive unitary whole?  So like I said, hanging up the gloves for now on this until some more information about the mechanics of surgebinding and how Dysian Aimians are able to use investiture comes in (maybe after Book Five is out we can try this Pay Per View match again). But upvotes for you both, this has been diverting and edifying, two of my favorite -ing words.   Edited January 30, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine Typos, typos, typos 2
Storms! he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: but it still seems like it is implied that a large substrate can be changed based on the cognitive intent of the soulcaster. Shallan's father/the Ghostbloods were Soulcasting to create quarries of I forget exactly, but turning some piece of ground into a quarry isn't that different, mechanically, from creating a lava pit Quote So like I said, hanging up the gloves for now on this until some more information the mechanics of surgebinding and how Dysian Aimians are able to use investiture comes in (maybe after Book Five is out we can try this Pay Per View match again). But upvotes for you both, this has been diverting and edifying, to of my favorite -ing words. This has been fun. You've been a worthy opponent, but I should probably make up some of the work I've been missing by participating in this thread lol Quote The real surprise is that a "xx vs Fullborn" thread got 3 pages of discussion, and could potentially get more. It's nice to have new people coming up with new ideas here and there. It started out pretty slow/dismissive. It really took off when my brother @Teesh229Â had the idea of adding the 10 Honorblades, which I shamelessly stole 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: 1. I've only read the entire mistborn series once, and you are correct that I was mistakenly thinking that Steel Pushes/Iron Pulls had effects on only metal with Iron in it (pretty big error) 2. but lets say that the shot gets off because the firing of the Cremling cannon takes the fraction of second that Fullborn uses to respond to the lava pit. 1. Yea, that's a problem 2. Ultimately it doesn't matter since you were Soulcasting the casing into air anyway. I was pointing out that push discrepancy early, while I was under the assumption that the casing itself would be getting launched too. 4 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: 1. I have a hard time believing that every molecule of air has been thought of with sufficient depth to form a singular corresponding bead in shadesmar, so this implies that partial soulcasting of large and encompassing soul of an idea is possible. 2. So if the Aimian had the soul of the idea of the ground, it stands to reason that they should be able to decide the nature and dimension (given enough stormlight) to affect the specific transformation that they want. 1. That was my point. I was mainly kinda curious if we had anything more solid than "there isn't one bead per atom/molecule/what-have-you." i guess a better way to word my question was: "How big of an area does one bead affect? Are we talking a kid's swimming pool, a public pool, or an Olympic pool of lava?" 2. I'm not sure how you'd go about making lava, since that isn't exactly one of the essences, and Mechanical Soulcasting is more limited. Assuming you can get over that hurdle, I.. suppose that could be done. 9 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Maybe I mis-remember this, but isn't it possible to dismiss bonded honorblades (to have them go back to your spirit web)? They can. Szeth does so in WoK I-9, and proceeds to lash the confused soldiers every which way. The point that I made later on directly references this: 58 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Honorblades only grant powers when they are wielded(or desummoned by their wielder). My point in saying that is the action of desummoning it, rather than simply dropping it, is a conscious decision for an Honorblade wielder. That conscious decision cannot be made by a dead Hordeling, so if they dropped it by dying, then it's into the lava. 12 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: Reponses to particulars in the quote below (allows me to do a numbered list): Assuming you aren't on a mobile device: you can press tab to indent bullet points/numbering. If you are on mobile, you should be able to select the text (where it gives you the cut, copy, paste, etc.. options) Navigate though those, and there should be one that says "indent." [I will mention that I do this on the Notepad app on my iPod, so you may not be able to do this on a website] 14 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: 1. The cremlings would be following the Tsuami inwards towards the fullborn, lashing themselves to keep up with the trailing end of the wave. 2. Good point about lashing liquid and the Cognitive aspect of the liquid. But a possible counter argument to this is a possible explanation of the mechanics of doing this itself. If you lashed the ground with the gravitational surge, the majority of the ground would resist this lashing due to it's rigidity and the fact that it is a unitary whole connected to the rest of the planets crust, but the portion that is in a liquid state would be more free to respond to the lashing. So the answer applying the lasing to the whole general ground, the mobile viscous liquid rock would be the only element of the ground likely to respond to this lashing. 3. One or two flying cremlings far removed from the battle should be able to give the Sleepless all the sightlines on the position of the fullborn that Aimian would need. 4. Addressed in point 1. 1&4: Fair enough. Also, there's an "n" in tsunami. 2: But that's not how a Basic Lashing works. You lash the object via touch. Touching the ground would fail(as you said it would) in more ways than one, since the liquid portion would see itself as separate from the solid, leaving it entirely unaffected by you lashing the solid ground. Lashing the liquid via touch is still gonna be a little strange, because it depends on how much of the liquid sees itself as a singular object, rather than just "not the solid ground." 3. Sightlines aren't a big issue. If he's escaped the liquid rock tsunami, he's gotten out of it. At that point, I presume you would have the Hordelings redirect the tsunami towards him, at which point our Steelrunner escapes. Thanks to gold/stormlight healing, neither living party is too troubled by air resistance and burning up, but that rock tsunami is gonna get burned away in the mad dash to catch up. And at this point, we are no longer anywhere near the original battle arena, and the grand plan no longer matters. 27 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said: But upvotes for you both, this has been diverting and edifying, two of my favorite -ing words. It was an enjoyable discussion. Glad to see I've found another debating spirit. Looking forwards to the next, whatever that may be about. 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, Storms! said: This has been fun. You've been a worthy opponent, but I should probably make up some of the work I've been missing by participating in this thread lol Holy crap, I have so much real work to do too. Tell your brother thanks for making me feel the deadline pressure . This: 29 minutes ago, Storms! said: Shallan's father/the Ghostbloods were Soulcasting to create quarries of I forget exactly, but turning some piece of ground into a quarry isn't that different, mechanically, from creating a lava pit and this: 23 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: . I'm not sure how you'd go about making lava, since that isn't exactly one of the essences, and Mechanical Soulcasting is more limited. Assuming you can get over that hurdle, I.. suppose that could be done. Plus the fact that we know from an Info dump from Navanni in OB that any liquid substance that is not oil based can be made with a soulcaster that is attuned to Blood and that has a garnet, I think that soulcasting (especially the surge) is a composite creation kind of thing. We know that rock can be created, we know that air can be converted to fire (which subsequently is in a much higher energy state than air), so I think soulcasting is like an alchemical process of producing a known end result by shuffling the essences around (like Lava=2 parts rock + 3 parts fire, or some such formula). 43 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: My point in saying that is the action of desummoning it, rather than simply dropping it, is a conscious decision for an Honorblade wielder. That conscious decision cannot be made by a dead Hordeling, so if they dropped it by dying, then it's into the lava. Ahhh, got it, definitely wouldn't want to physically bring the Honorblades to the Lava pool Fullborn party. Again, edifying. Thanks for the pro-tip on indented lists This is pretty rad! Wow, three levels of bullets! Four??? Five?? when does it end?? And you can have them fully nested, awesome! 46 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: But that's not how a Basic Lashing works. You lash the object via touch. Touching the ground would fail(as you said it would) in more ways than one, since the liquid portion would see itself as separate from the solid, leaving it entirely unaffected by you lashing the solid ground. Lashing the liquid via touch is still gonna be a little strange, because it depends on how much of the liquid sees itself as a singular object, rather than just "not the solid ground." I think this might be one of those mechanics of the magic that is handled without thought. I think the real limitation on this would be the limitation on depth of the Cohesion surge (like you mentioned earlier), once that limit is reached you have a functional unit (i.e. the liquid rock) which would probably act like a singular entity, with breakdown of the lashing occuring at the margin of viscosity (yeah, I just said margin of viscosity). 49 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: It was an enjoyable discussion. Glad to see I've found another debating spirit. Looking forwards to the next, whatever that may be about. It was a blast, but like @Storms said I'm glad there's a temporary lull in the action so that I can get some work done. Thanks for the incredibly well thought out replies and the surgical use of the WoB scalpels to cut out the rotten bits from the speculating. 'Til the next gauntlet has been thrown down, pip pip and cheerio. 1
Varenus Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 @hoiditthroughthegrapevine Correct me if I am wrong or if this has been brought up before, but couldn't the Fullborn just start filling his brassminds with heat to escape the lava pool? The coppermind says: Quote By cooling the body by filling a brassmind, however, one could resist higher temperatures - heat would flow to the colder region that is your body, allowing one to become immune to fire and other sources of intense heat by carefully regulating the rate at which one filled their metalmind. So you are actually providing the Fullborn with a method of escape by my estimation. 1
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Varenus said: So you are actually providing the Fullborn with a method of escape by my estimation. Excellent point, that would effectively counter the threat of the lava. The lava pit wasn't the actual attack it was just the opening salvo meant to keep the fullborn from using his bend alloy bubble and to distract him from the real attack. But like Storms pointed out, it might just have the effect of making the Fullborn fly the coop and be harder to hit with the real attack. I am officially conceding that at this point we don't know enough about surgebinding and the mechanics of how Dysian Aimians would be able to use surges and stormlight to determine what the likely outcome of this contest would be, and anything more at this point would be pretty thinly based speculation (it was fun, but I have a ton of work that piled up while I was thinking about this). Like I said earlier I would revisit this fight when we get more information about more of the surges and about Dysian Aimians, but until then I will give the initial victory to the Fullborn (holy crap, they are far more powerful than I thought). They have won the first battle but not the war, and as war turns on the quality of the intelligence, I will wait for further information. 2
Kered he/him Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 Adding this bit also. Nerd alert, btw. Sorry if you haven't because this won't make much sense, but for the people that have seen Naruto Shippuden, I think a scene in one of later episodes perfectly represents what a Fullborn could do to a army. The scene I'm talking about is when Madara unleashes himself against the army of shinobi. This is the scene I'm talking about. Minor Shippuden spoilers, but totally worth watching. Spoiler  Â
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