[OB] Pattern is Dangerous

[Naurock]

So since we know Ashyn had a cataclysm of some sort, I was rereading OB and came across Pattern talking to Shallan/Veil. It struck me as partially how Parshendi are and also how weird Pattern understands the physical world. 

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"I have come to understand," Pattern said, growing excited. "Humans . . . humans don't care about the dead.  You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skins of corpses. Corpses are things to you.

"Well, I guess that's true." He seemed unnaturally excited by the revelation.

"It is grotesque," he continued, "but you all must kill and destroy to live. It is the way of the Physical Realm. So I should not hate Adolin Kholin for wielding a corpse!"

Sorry if there's any typos above, on a phone typing with book in hand. But later in the book Ivory tells Jasnah that Cryptics are dangerous. Shallan is one of the furthest progressed Radiants and her spren is still very flawed with how he perceives with his world view. Obviously coupled with other high spren like Malata's spren could be very dangerous. This could be coming to a head again with peace talks with the Azir and their distrust of Radiants. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Palindrome]

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

So since we know Ashyn had a cataclysm of some sort, I was rereading OB and came across Pattern talking to Shallan/Veil. It struck me as partially how Parshendi are and also how weird Pattern understands the physical world. 

Sorry if there's any typos above, on a phone typing with book in hand. But later in the book Ivory tells Jasnah that Cryptics are dangerous. Shallan is one of the furthest progressed Radiants and her spren is still very flawed with how he perceives with his world view. Obviously coupled with other high spren like Malata's spren could be very dangerous. This could be coming to a head again with peace talks with the Azir and their distrust of Radiants. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Because spren apparently feed off of stormlight it is an odd concept to them. They also apparently can use the ideas or souls of things to create chairs, clothes, etc. In the cognitive realm so literally nothing ever has to be destroyed in their world.

[Strifelover]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

But later in the book Ivory tells Jasnah that Cryptics are dangerous. Shallan is one of the furthest progressed Radiants and her spren is still very flawed with how he perceives with his world view. 

One of the really interesting things about bonding a Cryptic is the way their oaths work. The other orders we've seen, the ideals are generally pretty good ways to moderate their behavior - protect people, remember and speak for the forgotten, uphold the law, etc. Now they don't necessarily obligate radiants to be good, since a lot of it comes down to their perspective. We see this with Kaladin throughout WoR and Nale...pretty much always.

BUT the Lightweavers/cryptics seem entirely unchecked by their oaths and ideals. It's just about admitting truths to yourself, which doesn't serve to moderate their behavior much at all. Perhaps they're so dangerous because they aren't really beholden to any particular oaths, but simply seeking truths.

[The Sovereign]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

her spren is still very flawed with how he perceives with his world view.

Not to sound like a sociopath, but what about Pattern's perception is flawed? Objectively speaking, his observation is actually pretty sound and his acceptance of it is practical...

[RShara she/her]

We don't know how many of the orders behave.  We've only got decent perspectives on 5 out of 10 (Bondsmith, Windrunner, Lightweaver, Edgedancer, Skybreaker).  Dustbringers, WillShapers, Stonewards, etc, are still completely mysteries to us.  But Dustbringers, at least, sound pretty unmoderated, as well.

[Palindrome]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

We don't know how many of the orders behave.  We've only got decent perspectives on 5 out of 10 (Bondsmith, Windrunner, Lightweaver, Edgedancer, Skybreaker).  Dustbringers, WillShapers, Stonewards, etc, are still completely mysteries to us.  But Dustbringers, at least, sound pretty unmoderated, as well.

We do not know any dustbringer oaths that I know of. However, we do know the Herald they are supposed to mimmick and we know her qualities. Brave and obedient do not sound like terrible qualities to have.

[Stark he/him]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

and her spren is still very flawed with how he perceives with his world view.

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Questioner

So there's only one Honorspren that got power, and does that mean that no more can get out and are there only *inaudible* Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

Syl disobeyed what she was supposed to do. However, at the same time, she blazed a trail so there might be others. The Cryptics, on the other hand, they are totally fine with what's happening but Pattern was the one who was nominated, he lobbied for it, to go and be the guinea pig. So the Cryptics are totally all over doing this, they are eager for more. But a lot of them think it is a death sentence, but they're weird, they don't mind it that much.

source

Emphasis mine.  The Cryptics are all weird, not just Pattern.  They seem fascinated by the mathematics that underlay reality, and are curious about why humans do the things they do.  They accept that this experiment will most likely end in their deaths, and accept that this cost is worth what they will learn.  So much so that:

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ccstat

In Shallan's drawings during the course of The Way of Kings, she sees multiple Cryptics. Were there other Cryptics accompanying Pattern in those drawings?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

ccstat

Were they approving of Pattern's choices.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. The Cryptics are much like what is happening with Lift, where there is more of a conscious effort on their part. As opposed to what is happening with Syl or Jasnah where there is hesitance. What the Cryptics are driven to do is in part because of what a few of their members have been experimenting with.

source

Pattern is not inherently dangerous, he is just extremely curios, like all Cryptics.  The danger is the pursuit of that curiosity.  When Shallan was pursuing Re-Shepnir, Pattern's concern was not for safety, but that she'd go do something stupid without him there to watch, because stupidity is extremely interesting.  It seems like the cryptics, both in Shallan's drawings and Elhokar's mirrors were coming through to the Physical Realm in greater numbers than any of the other true spren at the beginning.

 

I think Cryptics are not trusted because they are curious, and always experimenting, let the curiosity drive them rather than anything else.  And that can be deeply unsettling to any around them that operate based on rules.  Pattern is not a sociopath - he cares for Shallan enough to offer to die to help her heal. But each spren has a lure that draws them and binds them.  Emotion spren follow emotion, honorspren follow honor and oaths, cultivation spren (Wyndle) seek growth, inkspren seek logic.  Cryptics seek mathematical constructs.  And what better theoretical construct than lies?  Each lie you tell must be maintained - the greater the lie, the more supporting lies must be told to keep the plates spinning in the air.  The more people who hear and believe the lie, the more work that must be done to sustain it.  The mathematical equations for how to sustain lies must be ludicrously complex.  Requiring the revelation of truths, that thereafter can never be lied about (Shallan could no longer suppress the memories of her truths and had to confront them) makes a lot of sense for a race of spren that want to learn.

 

You've confronted this, now you must deal with the outcome and can't hide it anymore.  That must be fascinating.

 

Understanding that everything humanity uses is actually the corpse of something else, and that is just how we are was a mind blowing revelation to Pattern.  And it allowed him to overcome his disgust at Adolin using a corpseblade.  That is extremely rational, pragmatic and mathematical in its approach.  And Pattern loves his math.

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Paraphrased quotes:

"Forbidden... Like dividing by zero?"

...

Adolin: "We are an odd group."

Pattern: "Hmm, yes, we are seven. Odd." 

Not dangerous, just an alien worldview.

[Starla]

I thought Pattern's observations about humans "feeding off the dead" was pretty interesting and astute, because it's true. Nearly everything humans eat or use in day to day life comes from something dead, whether it be food or objects made from plants or animals. I don't think this makes him dangerous, it makes him observant of human behavior and the way the cycle of life works in the physical realm. Life in the cognitive realm doesn't work this way. Spren do not consume other spren, so it is a big revelation for him.

I assume other spren think of Cryptics as dangerous because of their fascination with lies. I don't get the sense that they are destructive.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Starla
typo

[CrazyRioter she/her]

He's not human, so he doesn't think the way humans do, that's not a flaw, it's just that he's different.

[RShara she/her]

38 minutes ago, Palindrome said:

We do not know any dustbringer oaths that I know of. However, we do know the Herald they are supposed to mimmick and we know her qualities. Brave and obedient do not sound like terrible qualities to have.

Malata would like to have a chat with you

We don't know their Oaths, but Malata seems pretty unfettered.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

also whether "obedient" is a good quality depends heavily on who or what they are obedient to.

[Palindrome]

2 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

also whether "obedient" is a good quality depends heavily on who or what they are obedient to.

Much like the skybreakers following of the law. Whose laws, and whose interpretation of said laws do you follow?

[Strifelover]

22 minutes ago, RShara said:

Malata would like to have a chat with you

We don't know their Oaths, but Malata seems pretty unfettered.

Definitely, and even if the orders are generally geared towards positive or productive ideals that doesn't mean a particular radiant can't have a totally warped opinion on what those oaths really mean. There was that Dalinar vision where he met Nohadon who mentions a rogue radiant (who I believe was also Dustbringer) that started a war. Obviously we can only speak for the orders' ideals that we know of so far, but most of them seem geared towards service to others and improvement either personally or at a community level. It'll be interesting to see what the other orders' ideals look like.

Lightweavers seem like the exception so far, and it's not hard to imagine how the search for truth can lead towards something dangerous if unchecked. It's basically the start of every sci fi movie: we explored technology, an alien planet, genetics, etc and we went. too. far! 

[RShara she/her]

12 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

Definitely, and even if the orders are generally geared towards positive or productive ideals that doesn't mean a particular radiant can't have a totally warped opinion on what those oaths really mean. There was that Dalinar vision where he met Nohadon who mentions a rogue radiant (who I believe was also Dustbringer) that started a war. Obviously we can only speak for the orders' ideals that we know of so far, but most of them seem geared towards service to others and improvement either personally or at a community level. It'll be interesting to see what the other orders' ideals look like.

Lightweavers seem like the exception so far, and it's not hard to imagine how the search for truth can lead towards something dangerous if unchecked. It's basically the start of every sci fi movie: we explored technology, an alien planet, genetics, etc and we went. too. far! 

Right, but if the Radiant acts in a way contrary to how they view the oaths should be, then they would start to lose their powers.  The Radiant would also have to convince their spren that they're acting in accordance to their Ideals. 

Windrunners and honorspren seem pretty constricted.  But Skybreakers and Dustbringers and Lightweavers, I would say, get a much looser interpretation.  I don't think the Lightweavers get to be much more unfettered than Dustbringers.

[Naurock]

5 hours ago, Stark said:

Understanding that everything humanity uses is actually the corpse of something else, and that is just how we are was a mind blowing revelation to Pattern.  And it allowed him to overcome his disgust at Adolin using a corpseblade.  That is extremely rational, pragmatic and mathematical in its approach.  And Pattern loves his math.

Not dangerous, just an alien worldview.

Thank you for those WoBs. They were very insightful to Cryptics. 

 

6 hours ago, The Sovereign said:

Not to sound like a sociopath, but what about Pattern's perception is flawed? Objectively speaking, his observation is actually pretty sound and his acceptance of it is practical...

As @CrazyRioter points out who the spren is loyal to is a major pivoting point. My thoughts are that Pattern has been following Shallan since childhood. She started saying ideals about 1-2 years ago? So Pattern has started expanding his sentience and after this time he thinks killing and destroying is a normal . She (or another Lightweaver Radiant) could easily twist this perception to Soulcast humans at will saying "Well it's just part of life." Or lightweave awful things to torment someone, like their family being butchered before them and say, "Humans die all the time, were trying to show them atrocities of war so we can avoid it in the future." A twisted Radiant could easily manipulate their spren, and Malata even stated her spren is out for revenge. This seems like a major issue that could strain a lot of relations.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Naurock said:

So Pattern has started expanding his sentience and after this time he thinks killing and destroying is a normal .

This has nothing to do with Shallan. He states why this is. Whether it's plants or animals, we kill to eat. We destroy to create things. Everything we make has a cost. 

There is absolutely nothing we do that some other life form doesn't pay a cost for. 

It's the nature of the Physical Realm.

[Strifelover]

16 hours ago, RShara said:

Windrunners and honorspren seem pretty constricted.  But Skybreakers and Dustbringers and Lightweavers, I would say, get a much looser interpretation.  I don't think the Lightweavers get to be much more unfettered than Dustbringers.

I agree, although it'll be interesting to see what the actual ideals are for dustbringers. So far we're 2/2 with Dustbringers seeming pretty evil, but it might be a Skybreaker situation where it probably should be positive ideals, but leaves so much up to interpretation that it really relies on the individual.

[Wandering Investor]

18 hours ago, Strifelover said:

One of the really interesting things about bonding a Cryptic is the way their oaths work. The other orders we've seen, the ideals are generally pretty good ways to moderate their behavior - protect people, remember and speak for the forgotten, uphold the law, etc. Now they don't necessarily obligate radiants to be good, since a lot of it comes down to their perspective. We see this with Kaladin throughout WoR and Nale...pretty much always.

BUT the Lightweavers/cryptics seem entirely unchecked by their oaths and ideals. It's just about admitting truths to yourself, which doesn't serve to moderate their behavior much at all. Perhaps they're so dangerous because they aren't really beholden to any particular oaths, but simply seeking truths.

The truth's a lightweaver seeks are actually intended to raise their awareness of the truth of things. From what we've seen so far its a much more open training method than the other orders, and more likely to result in varied individuals, but they're not unchecked.

And I agree with a lot of the post. Pattern's remarks are due to an alien intelligence attempting to not only understand humans, but also the world they live in. Pattern is just a scholar attempting to understand things, with a neutral curiosity. Now, this kind of curiosity isn't evil within itself, but may do evil things to satisfy the curiosity, so it is a potential future problem to watch out for, although I don't think it will be.