Shallan's Relationship

[loke13]

Hate fueled by love is arguably a more powerful force than love, and losing a family member to someone elses action causes a whole lot of hate. Look at what it did to Shallan's father. It drove him to violent near murderous rage for years. I honestly see that being a source of major conflict coming up.

 

I agree that it's gonna be a conflict however Shallan is a scholar she knows how to take her emotions out of the situation and look at things objectively. I'm pretty sure she would have to consider the circumstances of her brothers death.

[shinintendo]

This is not a romance based book, trust BS to handle it accordingly.

It will be solved in the next book probably and will be a small part of this huge tome.

And about two broken people not making a good couple, Kaladin thought about this subject already

 

He listened with wonder. Storms. Why wasn’t this woman broken, truly broken? She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade—and a spear like that could still be as sharp a weapon as any. He preferred one with a score or two on the blade, a worn handle. A spearhead that had known fighting was just . . . better than a new one. You could know it had been used by a man fighting for his life, and that it had remained sure and not broken. Marks like those were signs of strength.

(marked bold by me)

[FeatherWriter she/her]

It's going to take more than a little bit of recalculation after the vector Shallan's arc took in Words of Radiance. For example the whole thing with them teaching each other at night in secret I honestly can't see happening at all at this point with her out as a Radiant. 

 

Honestly I figured Renarin was more the type to be into that. You know, with him being so happy to oblige when others tell him what to do....

Well, Shallarin as a ship isn't fully dependent upon a secret relationship dynamic. That was just a version of it that I wanted to explore. Ships are wonderfully fluid and flexible things. They work through AUs and various situations and there's lots of fun ways to explore things. 

 

As for Renarin, I don't think he is really. I mentioned this in the Renarin thread thing, but I think he likes feelng useful more than following orders themselves.

 

 

On Shallan and Renarin.

 

As of the moment there is quite literally nothing there to support a relationship for them. In fact Shallan thinks he is downright 'creepy and weird'. This is backwards progress people.

 

Ultimately we simply have almost nothing to go on for Shallan & Renarin and what we do have puts them in the negative.

 

It had to be said, I am so sorry.

 

Well, the canonicity of a ship is only a part of it's appeal. Something doesn't have to be likely or even plausible to be an enjoyable idea. Kalarin and Shasnah shippers have been going strong for years well aware that that ship is probably not going to happen in canon (though both of them got WAY more cute ship teasings in this book than Shallarin—which was infinitely more likely— did. Shallan's descriptions of Jasnah at the beginning read much differently to a shipper, and the Renarin joins Bridge 4 scene was what finally swayed me over to join the Kalarin-ers once and for all.

 

Speaking of enjoyable ships which are probably not going to be canon, I think ExMachina has the right idea on how to settle this Kaladin versus Adolin debate once and for all.

(source)

 

I definitely mentioned that the Kaladin/Adolin dynamic was my favorite in this book. Of course, amazing art like this is only going to make me enjoy it more. ExMachina is a gift, y'all.

[TwistedMisting she/her]

I'd say Adolin/Shallan is lighthearted rather than shallow, but that's a matter of perspective I guess. Shallan really needs to leave the I'm-so-much-smarted-than-anybody-else attitude she has developed and realize there are different kinds of smartness. She'd never known how to handle to the situation with the singing Parshendi, because she has the mind of a scholar just like how Adolin has the mind of a warrior and isn't interested in moss and the likes.  One is not better than the other, they are just different.

 

 

 

 

I don't agree that she's thinking herself more intelligent than Adolin. When they're in the winehouse and she's talking about chasmfiends Adolin quips 'I'm kind of useless at anything that doesn't involve someone getting stabbed' but later she responds 'you probably don't see the problem because you don't have the proper facts' (pg 573 UK hardback) she acknowledges that his ignorance on the subject is not a reflection on his intelligence, but on the way he's been educated. When Adolin leaves he reflects to himself that she doesn't make him feel stupid.

[Bobobagins]

I've notice alot of people talking about this topic and it is interesting yet a rather obvious out come.

1. Shallan is a radiant and as much as she has talk to Alodin in wor she has never felt comfortable enough to open up with him in comparison to Kaladin in the chasm scene.

2. Alodin will never be a radiant why? He murdered Sadias and the first oath is always the same "life before death" and no matter how hateful Sadias was murder is still murder and so will never be able to bond a sprin. (don't belive me look for the trend in all cases all killing for Kaladin and Shallan their was an element of defence.)

3. Kaladin won't end up with Laral simple because he isn't who he used to be and if you've read both books you can infer the reasons why.

So here's what will happen everyone around Adolin will become radiant and as per his immature streak will begin to resent Shallan and maybe even his brother and father. Shallan and Adolin will drift apart Kaladin will return more than likely with Laral and his parents and there will be a moment of revelation and the inevitable will occur.

[Aleksiel]

...

 

Apparently, I can't put my thoughts in a good enough way, probably my English or something I'm yet to figure out. 

 

I do not define a broken person to be some who has traumatic experience, because then practically everybody would be broken. What I meant by that was someone who can't deal with their issues at all, like how Shallan can't confront her past. 

 

When I said 'need someone to set an example' I chose my wording poorly. I didn't mean it in a romantic way, but more of a mentor or friendly relationship. It's easier (thought not a must in any way) when you see how someone else has already dealt with what you are struggling with. I meant from my experience relationships between broken people don't work quite well, but didn't intend to imply they never do. I meant I haven't seen one that worked. I'd definitely enjoy reading one that does work and Brandon is good enough of an author to do this, though I would prefer if Kal and Shallan deal with their issues outside of a romantic relationship. 

 

Something else I wanted to express was just because Shadolin seems unlikely doesn't mean Shalladin must happen. I think they can have a really fulfilling friendship and have a deep connection.  Having mostly romantic relationships between male and female characters (that have no blood connection) doesn't seem like something Brandon would do and a strong male/female friendship can only benefit the series. That and I don't want Adolin and Kaladin to have a competition over a girl come between them; it's a motif we'll see in Dalinar's flashbacks.

 

Oh, and don't forget the Chekhov's gunwoman Tarah. I'm curious what Brandon is foreshadowing here. 

Edited March 8, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Fistsofrage]

“How about this?” she said, holding his eyes. “I promise, solemnly and by the tenth name of the Almighty, that I mean no harm to Adolin or his family. I mean to prevent a disaster. I might be wrong, and I might be misguided, but I vow to you that I’m sincere.”  He stared into her eyes. So intense. She felt a shiver meeting that expression. This was a man of passion.

 

This was a man of passion...where have I heard that before? Oh yes...that's what Navani said about Dalinar o.O I think I just unwittingly solved the Adolin vs Kaladin debate that was going on in my mind lol.

[Argent he/him]

*blinks*

*brain breaks*

(And I know it was a joke but to be honest, I really don't feel like Renarin's the BDSM type. Shallan... maybe. Renarin, probably not. Mraize on the other hand... *quietly tries to make Mraize/Shallan a thing*)

 

It's always the quiet ones, Feather

 

Also... Mrallan? Shaize? Heh, Shaize. 

[Edgedancer he/him]

Shaize? damnation, I´m having Mistborn flashbacks. Yet again a word that sound like a german one and this time it is a swear.

[Fistsofrage]

You know...Navani has a lot of experience with choosing the wrong man and getting the right one later. Maybe she'll have some words for Shallan lol.

[AyeJay she/her]

You know...Navani has a lot of experience with choosing the wrong man and getting the right one later. Maybe she'll have some words for Shallan lol.

 

It would be nice for Navani to get a chance to mother Shallan, it sounds like she missed out on a lot with Jasnah. Obviously Shallan's mother left plenty to be desired. I bet Navani would be able to pick up on things on her own, and then try to resolve things in a way that doesn't break the bonds that are forming between the trio. I very much doubt she would encourage anyone to remain in a relationship out of obligation. 

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

The less time spent on any of this relationship dynamic triangle nonsense between Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin the better, in my opinion.

There. I said it.

[shinintendo]

The time we dwell on it, in this thread, is far longer than the time both chars will dwell on it in the book

[The Silver Queen]

You can put me firmly into the anti-love triangle camp. I actually like both relationships (Shallan with Adolin or Kaladin) but if she ends up with Kaladin, please don't make it so that he is the reason Adolin and Shallan to end their relationship. I really want Kaladin and Adolin to continue growing their friendship.

 

For WoR, I thought Kaladin and Shallan were slightly the stronger pairing, but that has a lot to do with circumstance (the chasms). Both men opened up to Shallan fairly quickly. Kaladin talking about his past and Adolin confiding about his fathers plans and his feelings on their first date (pretty amazing to trust her with this so fast). I know some people say Shallan acts a little different when with Adolin (she tries a little too hard at first), but I think it is just realistic. Often when you first start dating someone you really like, you can try too hard to get them to like you. I think she is settling down more now that her and Adolin are closer.

Edited March 8, 2014 by The Silver Queen

[AyeJay she/her]

I don't think I would enjoy the traditional triangle. I would like to see one relationship end for non-love triangle reasons before the other begins. And everyone stays friends. 

[Guest Shash]

I also am not in the mood for a love triangle. With everything going on in the Cosmere, I'd rather not waste precious words on who has a crush on whom unless it's directly relevant to events. Someone mentioned earlier they hope no WoT type stuff happens with Kaladin and Adolin sharing Shallan. I don't think we have to worry about that. More than one woman may share a high value male - but no man with even the smallest amount of self respect would share a woman with another man.

EDIT:

This post seems to have garnered quite a few downvotes; it seems I have hurt some feelings, though I can't imagine why. So, if I have made you butthurt, please send me a private message and we'll hash this out. Unless, of course, you're too cowardly to confront me and would rather hide behind your anonymous downvotes. That's fine as well, I guess.

The bottom line is this: I broke no forum rules. I didn't say anything mean about any sex or demographic. If my post hurt your feelings it's the fault of your overactive and oversensititve feelings, not my trying to hurt them.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Shash

[Aleksiel]

 

Someone mentioned earlier they hope no WoT type stuff happens with Kaladin and Adolin sharing Shallan. I don't think we have to worry about that. More than one woman may share a high value male - but no man with even the smallest amount of self respect would share a woman with another man.

 

I'm sorry, but did you just imply that Elayne, Min and Aviendha had no self respect? Or that a woman can't be of high value?

[loke13]

I also am not in the mood for a love triangle. With everything going on in the Cosmere, I'd rather not waste precious words on who has a crush on whom unless it's directly relevant to events. Someone mentioned earlier they hope no WoT type stuff happens with Kaladin and Adolin sharing Shallan. I don't think we have to worry about that. More than one woman may share a high value male - but no man with even the smallest amount of self respect would share a woman with another man.

 

Why exactly does it have to a question of self respect?

[Guest Shash]

@ Aleskiel

Nope. Because those three women are not men. And are you deliberately trying to misunderstand what I wrote? Human beings are biological creatures with behaviors ingrained in us from millions of years of evolution; there are fundamental differneces in the sexes and this is one of them. A self respecting man will not share a woman with another man. A woman, however, can still be self respecting and share a high value man with other women. I hope that clears things up. And, in the future, refrain from insinuating that I'm claiming things that I very clearly am not.

@loke13

Because...do Kaladin or Adolin strike you as the kinds of guys who'd share a woman? Yeah, me either. They respect themselves enough to know that any given girl is one OF a million, not one IN a million.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Shash

[Aleksiel]

 

They respect themselves to know that any given girl is one OF a million, not one IN a million.

 

This just sounds plain wrong. So you do imply a girl can not be of high value, even though you claim you don't?

 

And, in the future, refrain from insinuating that I'm claiming things that I very clearly am not.

 

I asked rather politely to understand what you meant, because it wasn't clear at all. I disagree with you even though that I was the one who said I wish for things to not go the WoT way (my reasons are very different), but I don't want to start an argument. However, I think your post is offensive the way it is now. 

 

 

[Argent he/him]

I want to shoot down this self-respect thing ("but no man with even the smallest amount of self respect would share a woman with another man.") before it turns nasty. There are very heavy implications here, and I am not sure we are all aware of all of them - but one that comes to mind is that a statement like suggests a man who shares a woman with another man somehow doesn't respect himself. Which, if you think about it, devalues women by taken the choice away from them and giving it to the men. 

 

Talking about biological differences is fine, but this route will end up offending women, so let's drop it here and now. Shash, I guess you are not trying to offend, but as somebody who is acutely aware of how and how often words are misinterpreted, I can tell you that what you say can easily go bad. Especially on the Internet.

 

It's much much safer (and usually more correct) to not think about men and women, but people instead when talking about... well, people. 

[Guest Shash]

No, any given man is also one of a million not one in a million. But the things that make men and women high value are entirely different...

...actually, now that I think about it, I think that's where this misunderstanding is steming from.

A high value man is an alpha male. A man in control of himself and his environment. He is masculine and assertive. Both Kaladin and Adolin fit this description, which rules out them doing a WoT type of relationship. The things that make a woman high value are attractiveness, health, and feminitity. Shallan is described as attractive, she's certainly healthy, but she has too many masculine virtues to be really high value. As a mate - society value is a different thing. Shallan would be a good friend and ally, but I'd not pick her as a wife.

[Argent he/him]

Please refer to my previous post, this is getting worse... 

[Guest Shash]

I can't edit posts on my phone, so sorry about tbe double post.

To Argent: you're right. I'm not trying to hurt feelings but everything I'm saying is being taken the wrong way and made to seem rhat way. I'll drop it from here on out. It's very frustrating seeing people respond to what they think I mean instead of what I'm saying.

I stand by what I said about the self respect though. That's just the irrefutable truth. If it hurts someone's feelings to read it, fine.

[Jess]

I do not define a broken person to be some who has traumatic experience, because then practically everybody would be broken. What I meant by that was someone who can't deal with their issues at all, like how Shallan can't confront her past. 

 

It's probably possible to argue ad nauseam about what exactly constitutes a "broken person," which is one reason why I prefer treating each character as an individual case instead of basing opinions on such broad categories in the first place. After all, Shallan and Kaladin's respective "brokenness" isn't actually that similar. Different causes, different ways of dealing with it, different impacts on their personality, etc.

 

I don't think Shallan's deep denial was a 100% negative thing: for her it was probably a necessary step in the healing process because it was the only way she could retain a semblance of functioning while she was still powerless in her father's household. Now that she has escaped that and come into her own it is definitely time to leave the denial behind, and we saw the first steps of that at the end of WoR.

 

I think Kaladin is actually a lot further along in dealing with his demons. He regressed during the middle of WoR, but if your definition of broken person is someone who can't deal with their issues at all, well... does that actually apply to Kaladin anymore? He is dealing with his issues, slowly but surely. I personally think he will be mentally/emotionally healthier (not perfect obviously, but improved) in book three, mostly because we just had a "two steps forward, one step back" arc with him and it would be boring to repeat that.

 

But, in some ways, contrasting Shallan and Kaladin's respective brokenness actually seems like a tangent to me, because I see their relationship potential as mostly unrelated to that. There's absolutely no reason for a Shallan/Kaladin relationship to revolve around healing their emotional wounds. Even if the three arcs (Shallan deals with her demons, Kaladin deals with his demons, Shallan and Kaladin have a blossoming romance) did happen simultaneously, they can still be separate, independent events. 

 

I do agree that Shallan/Kaladin is not the only alternative to Shallan/Adolin. I also agree that Shallan and Kaladin as close friends instead of a couple is a strong possibility. Last but not least I have NO idea how Tarah fits into this. I actually voted for "Unknown" in the poll because of these kind of things. As much as a Shallan/Kaladin relationship appeals to me, I'm not at all confident that it will end up that way at the end of the series. But on my list of potential reasons why Shallan/Kaladin might not work out, "they are both too broken" is somewhere at the very bottom.

 

Human beings are biological creatures with behaviors ingrained in us from millions of years of evolution; there are fundamental differneces in the sexes and this is one of them. A self respecting man will not share a woman with another man.

 

Strongly disagree. There are plenty of polyamorous men in real life who "share women." Do you really think none of them have any self-respect?

 

So many people see learned, cultural gender differences and claim that they have to be fundamental, biological ones. It's a kind of "cultural egocentrism" where people assume their own culture's idea of "X is how men are and Y is how women are" is Clearly Natural and Universal because they are just completely unaware of hard counterexamples from other cultures. There is some room for debate... obviously nobody can know for sure exactly what is cultural and what is biological. But then again, you are the one making the "This is definitely, 100% for sure a fundamental gender difference" statement.

 

Social and biological origins of gender differences is a hugely complex topic. There are so many unanswered questions. People from many different academic fields can spend their entire lives investigating this. If you were really approaching this in a logical manner, you'd say something like "Well I think the evidence leans this way, but there are many researchers who disagree, so the matter is not settled."

 

tl;dr: You are so sure that you know better than literally thousands of anthropologists, biologists, sociologists, historians, etc? Come on now...

 

There is an argument to be made that Alethi culture would view two guys sharing a girl as lacking self-respect. And I would also say that it won't happen because it's simply not Brandon's style. But those are different arguments than the one you made...

 

Edited to be a little less harsh/verbose.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Jess