the Bondsmiths 3

[Jaconis]

I could be wrong, but the way I read it was that the spren only died if the bonded Radiant broke the oaths. This leaves open the possibility for the spren to have survived if the radiant died while still honoring their oaths. (I'm not quite sure how though, as "dying" for the spren is losing their sentience, so whether the human dies or breaks their oaths, the human still isn't there to provide the tie to the physical realm. Maybe if the human dies, the spren can return to the cognitive in full, with no sentience in the physical until they bond again? Perhaps when oaths are broken, the spren is trapped in the physical, and therefore can't get their mind back.)

This would allow the Stormfather and others to have survived yet still have been bonded at some point.

That said, one worry I have, although I don't think likely, is that if Dalinar does break his oaths, and the Stormfather losses his sentience...that could be very bad. I see relentless highstorms going every which way at all times.

[Argent he/him]

It looks like the Stormfather is not too keen on dying either, and is taking steps to prevent or at least mitigate the damage in case Dalinar betrays him / his oaths. Which, assuming he has this level of control or power, seems possible. Syl was severely hurt because her bond with Kaladin was a deep one - she had been providing him with the ability to Surgebind and he had been giving her... humanity, for the lack of a better term - for a long time. They symbiotic relationship was in an advanced stage. If the Stormfather holds back, doesn't give Dalinar much ability to Surgebind (and doesn't leech off much humanity), then severing the bond shouldn't hurt him nearly as much as it did Syl. 

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I know the stormfather speaks to Dalinar about not wanting to be killed by a betrayal but it seems strange to me that he could be. He is inherently different than the other spren because, as he also mentions to dalinar, his existence and sense of self partly comes from all the people across the world who still pray to the almighty. Their cognitive belief makes him exist as more than just a force of nature.

 

The other spren don't become sentient until the bond but the stormfather was already sentient before he bonded with Dalinar so breaking it shouldn't kill him in the same way Syl can be killed.

[Romek]

I agree that Nightwatcher is probably to Cultivation what Stormfather is to Honor.  Evidence for this seems to be that Lift's spren refers to a mother who people can visit and grants boons in the same way as Syl speaks of the Stormfather as her father.

However i tend to think that Bondsmiths are all bound to the Stormfather as the quote:

 

Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious

would simply be "Their spren were understood to be specific" otherwise.  And also I tend to interpret 3 to be a standard number, not really a max.

As for the stormfather surviving, I think it has to be either his reluctance to grant shards/become a shard, or he abandoned his bondsmiths after some event believing all is lost like he currently does, possibly Honor's death?  I tend to think its the former though

 

[name_here]

Note that the epigraphs are from a book written by a non-radiant centuries after the Recreance, so it may be a bit fuzzy. I took that as referring to their type of spren.

 

Also, by my understanding of what spren are, I don't think the Stormfather could be killed like that. Spren are basically the product of people anthropomorphizing forces, and they can't truly be killed any more than the force they're associated with. Bonded spren personify the oaths, but the Stormfather personifies the Highstorm, and while there is a Highstorm and humans to personify it, I don't think he can die.

[dionysus]

I feel embarassed I proposed basically the same thing but a few days later cause I didn't see this thread. I wholeheartedly agree. I also posit that Bondsmiths can if they want act as gatekeepers to other's nahel bonds. This would explain why it was considered almost rebellious for there to be too many of them, along with the fact that there are only a few spren with that kind of authority.

 

The evidence of the gatekeeping roll comes from Lift's interlude in that we know that Wyndle was told to bond Lift by a group called the Ring. So Nahel bonding can be somewhat influenced at a minimum by outside forces.

[marianmi]

Well, I think there is a pool of people that can be radiants. Syl could have found Dalinar before Kaladin, I don't think Dalinar would have been off her charts. And it looks to me in the old times, there was a good dialog between men and spren. Elsecallers could bring someone with them in Shadesmar. So is really possible people would go Urithiru, train, and have "sessions" in Shadesmar where they would go and meet spren.

What Pattern, Syl, Ivory and maybe Ym's spren did is exceptional, not the norm. Syl basically run away in the physical with no target in mind, and floated mindless until being attracted to Kaladin, Ivory observed Jasnah and then bounded against the wishes of the other spren, Pattern I think was part of an "experiment" of the liespren, in which he offered even if it meant possible death. Wyndle's bond was more of the "usual" way, where a human was chosen beforehand, and Wyndle was "sent" as opposed to "run away". Hence, he went with the support of the rulers? of his ... "city" - a council called The Ring.

I would say then that Bondshmiths are not "gatekeepers" of the bonds, but rather radiants bonded to important spren, who can clearly influence other spren in Shadesmar. For example, bonded to Stormfather, Dalinar may think of someone worthy and can talk to the Stormfather and convince him to send an honorspren for that guy. But there are limits, as we've seen spren are pretty independent and have complicated politics and different form of organization - honorspren presumably ruled by the Stormfather, cultivationspren ruled by a council, highspren are probably more "modern", maybe an elected highspren ...

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Well, I think there is a pool of people that can be radiants.

 

But there are limits, as we've seen spren are pretty independent and have complicated politics and different form of organization - honorspren presumably ruled by the Stormfather, cultivationspren ruled by a council, highspren are probably more "modern", maybe an elected highspren ...

 

I fully agree that there are pools of people that can be radiants, but on Roshar I'm pretty sure that is determined by a series of actions which denote inner character and are in accordance with the KR Order to which the spren is related.

 

I think the spren who form the Nahel bond with Bondsmiths are far more important to the process than we're giving them credit. Otherwise why would the Stormfather have to acknowledge Kaladin's 3rd oath or Dalinar's 2nd before it took effect with the words that he did? "the words are accepted", though Syl does say "you can't hold me back if the words are spoken". 

 

[The Rooster he/him]

I think there are few because their powers deal with propagation of KR ready nahel bondable spren. Dalinar will make the storm father open the flood gates. There are few because you don't need many. It's said ishar helped found the organization. This is consistent with that.

Edited March 12, 2014 by The Rooster

[marianmi]

OPEN THE POD BAY DOORS, STORMDADDY.

[+rhaiynebow]

Well, I think there is a pool of people that can be radiants.

 

Hmmmm...I read this and was reminded of someone's signature line I read once "Oh snap! I'm an allomancer" LOL.

 

I agree. And as referenced by my quote above, reminds me of the Mistborn/allomancer selection process.

[Samuel]

I haven't seen anyone bring up the fact that Cusicesh seems entirely unresponsive to interaction. Could it be that (s)he suffered this fate as part of the recreance? 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I'm definitely open to that idea! Cusicech was in my opinion messed up by the Recreance far more than the Stormfather...

[Argent he/him]

That's what I've been assuming as well.

[Swimmingly he/him]

On the Nahel bond and dying while fulfilling the oath: The perimortem vocalizations are apparently "powered by the spark of death" (to paraphrase). Could this power, perhaps Spiritual in nature, also be the force propelling bondspren back to the Cognitive when they die?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I'm in the "they all bond to the Stormfather" camp at the moment.  The phrasing doesn't make me think that three is the upper limit, just that it was rare for them to exceed that number.  I think the Stormfather protects himself partially through not allowing Dalinar (or perhaps any Bondsmiths at all) to use him as a Shardblade.

 

As to why it might be "seditious" to have too many:  The Bondsmiths seem to be unique in that they can alter the nature of bonds (namely Nahel bonds) themselves.  If you had several Bondsmiths, they could disrupt the current order either by a shared intent, or even by the opposite (multiple Bondsmiths at cross-purposes).

 

After rereading the Nohadon scene in WoK, I don't think Nohadon himself was a Bondsmith, but I do think he put forth the Ideals.  And when Ishi returned during the next Desolation, he created the Knights Radiant System^TM for Surgebinders.  The Bondsmiths exist to make edits to the system.  Another interesting few quotes:

 

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

"So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Herald and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address."

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards… Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.”

I think the Dawnshards were instrumental to the Bondsmiths.  It goes counter to my own opinion, but perhaps the Dawnshards are the super-spren?  They might be something else entirely.

[Martinitram he/him]

Maybe a bit of a tangent here, but..

 

Doesn't Taravangian describe other 'large' spren in his chapter and perhaps in the Diagram epigraphs? I seem to remember him referring to at least 2 spren (names escape me right now). One having to do with the deathquotes, and the other was implicated in being able to interact with humans to some degree. I DID however correlate Taravangian's large spren to having more of a Odious nature than that of Honor. If Honor has large spren, than so must Odium- 'void spren', (listeners Gods?)

 

Point being.. I don't believe that other than Stormfather, we can definitively personify the other 2 large spren that can bond with a bondsmith. And the epigraph referring to only 3 bondsmith at a time, does not imply that there can only be 3 at a time, rather that this was the custom. Infact, the quote implies there was a possibility to exceed 3 at a time, but was thought to be seditious.

 

On the other hand, Stormfather can talk to Kaladin as well as Dalinar, which leads me to believe that Stormfather may be able to bond with multiple KR at a time as well. 

 

I love this topic, and all the input on this thread is well thought out. However, I do still think its too early to make any strong conclusions about which particular spren bonds with a bondsmith. This seems to me like a BS RAFO, but one I am anxious to RAFO. 

[Argent he/him]

The two other spren you talk about might not be actual we spren, we are not too sure - Taravangian's Diagram mentions them, they are (some of) the Unmade. 

[Isomere]

There is an Earthspren the stone shaman worship that would be a good candidate for Bondsmithing. I doubt cuscicesh, but Nightwatcher seems a pretty solid guess. And we know about the Stormfather.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

There is an Earthspren the stone shaman worship that would be a good candidate for Bondsmithing. I doubt cuscicesh, but Nightwatcher seems a pretty solid guess. And we know about the Stormfather.

There is a theory which I like, that relates to the Horneater "creation myth" of the Mountain god, the tree god and the water god. The theory holds that on Honor's death, the Mountain god left to take up the mantle of the storms, thus becoming the stormfather. While the tree god (Nightwatcher), and the water god (Cusciech) are still at their posts, though possible "broken" (some more than others) by the Recreance.

[ram433]

I think Cheese Ninja may be the closest to the right of it. If the Orders each have a Cultivation/Honor ratio, its likely that the two "eyes" of the chart with the surges and orders represent the two orders that are the most one sided. Maybe 90/10 for Truthwatchers and 10/90 for Bondsmiths. If that were true, having the Spren of the Almighty be the spren for the 10/90 Honor order makes sense. From some of the comments in Lift's interlude it seems like Nightwatcher is associated with Cultivation. Honor in the secular sense is usually associated with adherence to a code of conduct for a particular society. That fits Dalinar to a T. 

 

It also makes sense that Bondsmiths can manipulate the nahel bond. In the epigraphs, there was a sense that Ishi was giving the spren and humans seeking the bonds sort of an ultimatum. "Bond with the rules I think are appropriate or not at all". It would make sense that he could make good on that threat. Plus, the epigraph specifically about Bondsmiths implies they have some influence over the way the Heralds work and possibly the voidbringers. What if their powers allow them to forge and break all kinds of bonds, not just physical ones? That would be the ideal order for someone trying to re-establish all the other orders.

 

Having one in residence all the time at Urithiru makes sense too. The spren bond would prevent some abuse of powers, but it seems like not all the spren are as strict as windrunner spren. Having a Radiant who can sever a nahel bond for someone who gets out of hand would be a good way to self-police. It would also make sense that you would not want too many of them. I bet there is always an odd number for voting purposes but five can get unwieldy so the ideal number was three. 

[Goatborn he/him]

Having one in residence all the time at Urithiru makes sense too. The spren bond would prevent some abuse of powers, but it seems like not all the spren are as strict as windrunner spren. Having a Radiant who can sever a nahel bond for someone who gets out of hand would be a good way to self-police. It would also make sense that you would not want too many of them. I bet there is always an odd number for voting purposes but five can get unwieldy so the ideal number was three. 

 

But what would be the point of Skybreakers? There described in a WoB as being the MPs of the Radiants. Unless they were to bring them in to Urithiru alive so the Bondsmiths could get to work.

 

Also, in one of Dalinar's WoK visions, he fends off some creepy monster types and is rescued by a couple of Radiants who then invite him to basically "try out" for Radiantness. Someone mentioned that the Bondsmiths might be able to influence who receives a spren partner through their bonds with godspren, but regardless of how it is achieved, I think the Bondsmiths have a big role in either creating new Radiants or deputizing normal people into squires.

 

The epigraph that references a unique battle plan based around the Bondsmiths may have involved deputizing an entire town of people who held close to Dustbringer ideals and letting them loose?

[ReadingSpren]

So, I was finally able to pickup the copy of WoR that I asked Brandon to personalize. In it I asked "what type of spren did the Bondsmith order have in the past?". He responded with this picture:

GoogleDrive

 

Based on the number 3 and the picture, I'm having the crazy idea that the Bondsmiths had bonds with the spren of the moons, but that isn't really supported by anything else. Any other interpretations?

[Swimmingly he/him]

That's an idea; especially given that we suspect the moons have something to do with the storms.

[11thorderknight]

Actually, it looks a lot like a stick-figure drawing of the sun! And their polestone does happen to be a heliodor....