[OB] Splinters of Honor

[Palindrome]

This may have been discussed before but definitely not in the pat few pages. When Odium splintered Honor how many splinters were created?  I have seen multiple theories of Dalinarbecoming the new Honor,  but ofcourse he would have to pickup more than just the Stormfather. I think 10 would be a good number because it is a holy number. BUT it took him forever to pickup one sliver. To pickup 10 to become Honor reincarnated sounds impossible. Where would these slivers be? How accessible are they? Does Dalinar need all 10 (if that's a real number) or could he pick up a few and be considered a new Shard?

[Llarimar he/him]

I am not actually sure of the manner in which Honor is shattered - where are the splinters of Honor?  In Elantris (spoilers)

Spoiler

the seons are the splintered remains of the god Dominion (or Devotion... I'm not sure which one).  You can see the seons, and you can easily understand that they are the shattered remains of something that was once larger.  However... I don't know of anything like that on Roshar except the spren.

Are the spren the shattered remains of Honor?  I have wondered that since Syl says stuff like "I am a god!  A tiny piece of one," but I also like 90% sure that the spren were around before Honor was shattered, so it doesn't make sense that the spren are his fragmented remains (although maybe someone can discredit that with a WoB or something).

Also, where in OB exactly does Dalinar take up a sliver of Honor?  Is it at the end, in Thaylen City when he unites the three Realms?  I feel like many people have speculated that he partially Ascended in that moment, but I'm not sure if it's been confirmed that he actually took up a sliver of Honor (again, someone can probably answer with a WoB or something).

And by the way, you have a super cool profile name!  (Especially in the context of Roshar).  

 

[Palindrome]

3 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

I am not actually sure of the manner in which Honor is shattered - where are the splinters of Honor?  In Elantris (spoilers)

  Hide contents

the seons are the splintered remains of the god Dominion (or Devotion... I'm not sure which one).  You can see the seons, and you can easily understand that they are the shattered remains of something that was once larger.  However... I don't know of anything like that on Roshar except the spren.

Are the spren the shattered remains of Honor?  I have wondered that since Syl says stuff like "I am a god!  A tiny piece of one," but I also like 90% sure that the spren were around before Honor was shattered, so it doesn't make sense that the spren are his fragmented remains (although maybe someone can discredit that with a WoB or something).

Also, where in OB exactly does Dalinar take up a sliver of Honor?  Is it at the end, in Thaylen City when he unites the three Realms?  I feel like many people have speculated that he partially Ascended in that moment, but I'm not sure if it's been confirmed that he actually took up a sliver of Honor (again, someone can probably answer with a WoB or something).

And by the way, you have a super cool profile name!  (Especially in the context of Roshar).  

 

I am sure that we have a WOB that all spren are pieces of Honor and cultivation. However, they existed before Honor was shattered.  But even with these tiny pieces of investiture Honor was still Honor until he was shattered. So, how much of Honor does Dalinar need to become a shard. Also, I assumed he ascended and owned at least one piece of Honor ( stormfather) if not more at the end of Oathbringer.  But sometimes assuming is bad in these books.

[Llarimar he/him]

37 minutes ago, Palindrome said:

So, how much of Honor does Dalinar need to become a shard. 

I have wondered the same thing.  It may be impossible for Honor to be re-created after he was shattered, and for Dalinar to just become the new Vessel.  We don't really know how Odium shatters shards, but however he does it, it's definitely more thorough than just killing the Vessel, because the actual power they hold is broken, and not just the person holding it. 

There is a very interesting moment that has gotten a lot of attention when Dalinar says near the end of OB "I am Unity!" with a capital "U".  This is noteworthy since capitalization is very important in Sanderson's books, and could suggest that Dalinar is becoming a new god - not Honor, or Odium, or Cultivation, or anything else, but Unity.  I am not sure exactly how this will work, but it definitely seems like it will be more complicated than just simply taking up the shard of Honor.  

[garlick]

Spren were around before honor, but were nahel bond spren around. Its plausible to me they created there own spren after humans came to Roshar. That still keeps with the WoB that spren were there before them. As for Unity my own personal idea is that's what the combined Roshar shards would be, in a ruin/preservation = harmony. He just isn't able to ascend to shard level yet because cultivation and odium still have there shards and dalinar isnt ready to reassemble honor. Its gonna take a level 5 bondsmith to accomplish reforming honor and defeating odium to truly become unity. I also think him ascending is more of a lord ruler type of ascention.

Edited January 19, 2018 by garlick
Typo

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Llarimar said:

I also like 90% sure that the spren were around before Honor was shattered, so it doesn't make sense that the spren are his fragmented remains (although maybe someone can discredit that with a WoB or something).

So... there are two parts to this. The current crop of Nahel Spren are Splinters of Honor(mixed with some of Cultivation's power like normal). The previous ones all died off during the Recreance, so the current ones are splinters of Honor.

Quote

little wilson
Are Ruin and Preservation separate in Sazed or are they fully combined together like can he give one of them, or does he have to give both.

Brandon Sanderson
They are not fully combined. I mean that's not the way this works. He could pull off a piece of one even and make-- stuff like that. That's totally, totally viable. I mean it's basically what happened with the spren. The spren existed before even Honor was destroyed and things like that.

little wilson
So, did the-- my gosh, on Sel-- the Aons-- not the Aons-- the seons did they exist before the Splintering?

Brandon Sanderson
They did not. That's a good question. But they are not the majority of the power. They're just little pieces, they are like the sparks when something gets destroyed. The sparks are not the majority but they are the sparks that were thrown off, if that makes sense?

The second part is that the Older Spren were of H&C to begin with, because of.. Realmatic Technicalities.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting.

---

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]
So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

---

56 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

It may be impossible for Honor to be re-created after he was shattered

Splintering is reversible.

Quote

Chaos

Is Splintering a Shard permanent?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

This doesn't mean anyone is currently capable of doing so, or if they know how to, but it's theoretically doable.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

When a shard is destroyed, it is said to be splintered. But honor had already divided itself by investing his power in others. So when destroyed, what if instead of creating new splinters? It's power was simply transferred to pre existing vessels of power.

[Subvisual Haze]

It might be important to consider the full implications if you wish to re-create a shattered shard.  Theoretically fully recreating Honor as a 100% restored shard would necessitate the death of many currently sentient spren.

[digitalbusker he/him]

27 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It might be important to consider the full implications if you wish to re-create a shattered shard.  Theoretically fully recreating Honor as a 100% restored shard would necessitate the death of many currently sentient spren.

There ought to be a way to convert them to the intentional splinter status the honorspren had before Honor was splintered.

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It might be important to consider the full implications if you wish to re-create a shattered shard.  Theoretically fully recreating Honor as a 100% restored shard would necessitate the death of many currently sentient spren.

No it wouldn't. 

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Little Wilson

You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time.

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self.

Brandon Sanderson

"Half-ish Shards are whole?"

Little Wilson

Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. 

Little Wilson

Yes, yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Little Wilson

And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole.

Zas678

Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole.

Zas678

But having a Splinter, like Endowment...

Little Wilson

Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. 

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Little Wilson

And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before--

Isaac Stewart

Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

source

Splinters can exist while the Shard is whole, so there's no need to take them back up. What's need is for that investiture to be reconnected in the Spiritual Realm. 

[digitalbusker he/him]

I think we need another word for "a piece of something". Shard and sliver are all used up, and using splinter for both kinds is getting confusing.

[leboralli]

On 19/01/2018 at 9:02 PM, Llarimar said:

I have wondered the same thing.  It may be impossible for Honor to be re-created after he was shattered, and for Dalinar to just become the new Vessel.  We don't really know how Odium shatters shards, but however he does it, it's definitely more thorough than just killing the Vessel, because the actual power they hold is broken, and not just the person holding it. 

There is a very interesting moment that has gotten a lot of attention when Dalinar says near the end of OB "I am Unity!" with a capital "U".  This is noteworthy since capitalization is very important in Sanderson's books, and could suggest that Dalinar is becoming a new god - not Honor, or Odium, or Cultivation, or anything else, but Unity.  I am not sure exactly how this will work, but it definitely seems like it will be more complicated than just simply taking up the shard of Honor.  

Sorry for reviving this post, but I'm reading all the comments and I just thought of something. Maybe Dalinar said "I'm Unity" because of the connection of him with Honor AND Odium? Nightwatcher called him "Son of Honor, son of Odium". Or maybe I just theorized too much...

[Lopens_Cousin]

On 1/19/2018 at 6:03 PM, The One Who Connects said:

So... there are two parts to this. The current crop of Nahel Spren are Splinters of Honor(mixed with some of Cultivation's power like normal). The previous ones all died off during the Recreance, so the current ones are splinters of Honor

I’m not sure that all the spren capable of forming the Nahel bond are splinters of honor. In fact, I’m not sure that any of them are actually splinters. Could the Storm Father be something other than a splinter? Like a cognitive shadow? Might be more clear when we see what is up with the other two spren associated with Bondsmiths. 

The only spren that I could sort of see being splinters of Honor, other than the Storm Father, are the Honorspren... but, as mentioned, they existed before Honor splintered... and, like most of the nahel spren, are manifestations of ideas, not splinters. So, It doesn’t seem like the spren actually NEED a shard or splinter to exist, and it also doesn’t seem like anything about the spren changed since Honor splintered. 

I haven’t thought enough about Dalinar’s Unity Moment... but, in general, are splinters physical(ish) things? Did Dalinar acquire anything that could be a splinter? I kind of thought that he was able to unite the realms because of his connection with the Storm Father. 

And what would have to happen, or what would the conditions be for Unity to be a new shard? 

[Calderis he/him]

@lopens_cousin all Nahel Spren are splinters. Splinters are chunks of investiture that have gained sentience/sapience (in most cases).

The Stormfather is a massive Splinter of Honor, but after Tanavast's death, his Cognitive Shadow and the Stormfather merged. So he is not one or the other, he is both. 

All Nahel Spren are some mixture of the investiture of both Honor and Cultivation. Some existed before, some after Honor's splintering, but how many are a direct result of that splintering is unknown. 

[Zelly]

Aren't all the Honorblades splinters?  Stormfather describes them (or Jezrien's at least) as being "made directly from Honor's Soul".

 

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

Aren't all the Honorblades splinters?  Stormfather describes them (or Jezrien's at least) as being "made directly from Honor's Soul".

Yes. 

Quote

Puck (paraphrased)

How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Let me see... You have met splinters in Elantris, Warbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn.

Puck (paraphrased)

I feel like we know that. So, qualitatively, what's the difference?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human.

Puck (paraphrased)

But it derives from a Shard's power.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. That's not it completely, but there's at least something to think about.

source

A Splinter is a chunk of a shards power that has never been human. It does not have to be sentient, but we have seen them almost every world with a Shard present. 

Seons/Skaze (or more specifically the symbols that are their focal points), the Divine Breath in returned, Spren and the Honorblades. All splinters.

[Lopens_Cousin]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

@lopens_cousin all Nahel Spren are splinters. Splinters are chunks of investiture that have gained sentience/sapience (in most cases).

The Stormfather is a massive Splinter of Honor, but after Tanavast's death, his Cognitive Shadow and the Stormfather merged. So he is not one or the other, he is both. 

All Nahel Spren are some mixture of the investiture of both Honor and Cultivation. Some existed before, some after Honor's splintering, but how many are a direct result of that splintering is unknown. 

Yeah... ok... so this is kind of where the language is confusing... because I was using “splinter” specifically as related to Honor. 

Is there a WOB that Honor’s splintering created spren? Because you’ll remember that spren can reproduce... so there are possibly spren created post Honor’s splintering... or maybe... they can’t reproduce anymore? I just think it doesn’t make any sense that Honor splintered into spren... unless... the nahel spren are now different in some way... that the splintering of Honor created a new class of spren that have some unique qualities or abilities. 

I guess my main point is that, unless something is different about the spren after Honor splintered, it doesn’t make any sense or have any use to just say they are now splinters of Honor, and weren’t before. When Honor splintered... a ton of spren didn’t just *pop* into existence... did they?

The Storm Father has changed a bit, e.g. he can share the visions. But I think the expansion of his understanding/perspective are due his bond with Dalinar, or as you say, his merging with Tanavasts cognitive shadow  

So... if there is a WOB that Honor’s splintering created spren... then I think there will be something unique and important about those spren... but have we met any of those? I don’t think so. Syl was created before Honor splintered. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by lopens_cousin

[Draigon]

Yes, the language is confusing. When we're talking about splinters as entities, the term splinter is referring to small bits of investiture that have gathered together. Some splinters, like the honorblades, were created intentionally by Honor. Other splinters, like the spren, were preexisting coalesced investiture of which some had gained a level of sentience. 
The death of Shards via splintering, while related to splinters, is not the only way that splinters can come into existence.

[RShara she/her]

I don't think there's a fixed number of splinters, just that his power was scattered into a lot of little bits.  The Stormfather is the biggest remaining chunk of Honor's power.

 

We know that honorspren and Nahel spren existed before Honor was Splintered, because we see them in pre-Recreance visions, and Honor died after the Recreance.  And we know how the current honorspren came about.

 

Yeah, having Splinters and Splintering is confusing.  We end up just having to use context.  Splinters (noun) are bits of investiture.  Splintering (verb) is some process of breaking a Shard's power into bits.

[Lopens_Cousin]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

 And we know how the current honorspren came about.

So... this is my question. Do we know for certain that the splintering of Honor spontaneously create a whole bunch of new honorspren? Perhaps I have just missed/forgotten this in the text or WoB.  If so, let's talk about the "current" honorspren. The current population of honospren would be made up of three groups: pre-splintering, splintering-created, and post-splintering*.

If the splintering of Honor created a whole bunch of new honorspren, then I have more thoughts and questions:

1) It would be crazy tumultuous for the honorspren society to integrate a huge number of new (and I assume ignorant) individuals, perhaps that had something to do with the honorspren warring in Shadesmar?

2) It seems possible/probable that there is something additionally special or important about the splintering-created honorspren. Do they have more investiture than the pre- and post-splintering honorspren? Have we met any of these honorspren? Why would there be two ways for spren to be born (splintering and coalescing of investiture) if there was nothing significant about the difference? That seems like needless complexity.

3) *Can new Honorspren be born now that Honor has splintered? It seems like pre-splintering, new honorspren could be born by bits of Honor's investiture becoming sentient. It seems like splintering-created honorspren would have been born by the remaining available Honor-associated investiture coalescing, which would create a finite population. So... now that Honor has splintered, is some of his investiture still floating around and waiting to be formed into new honorspren? Even if that is the case, there is an eventual finite population. So... it seems to me that either no more honorspren can be born, or eventually no more honorspren can be born. That seems significant.

...maybe I'm just rabbit-holing a relatively mundane plot-point, but in my experience, there is a big juicy carrot at the bottom of most Cosmere Rabbit Holes.

[RShara she/her]

As far as we can tell, it did not.  Notum in Oathbringer describes how the current numbers of Honorspren came to be.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

11 hours ago, lopens_cousin said:

When Honor splintered... a ton of spren didn’t just *pop* into existence... did they?

Logically, Honor's Splintering would have created a number of Spren, like what happened with D&D. What type of Spren came to be is unknown.

Quote

little wilson
So, did the-- my gosh, on Sel-- the Aons-- not the Aons-- the Seons. Did they exist before the Splintering?

Brandon Sanderson
They did not. That's a good question. But they are not the majority of the power. They're just little pieces, they are like the sparks when something gets destroyed. The sparks are not the majority but they are the sparks that were thrown off, if that makes sense?

[Yezrien]

Now that we understand what splinters are, “splintering” seems horribly misnamed. We really need a better word for what Odium does to other Shards.

[Lopens_Cousin]

3 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

Now that we understand what splinters are, “splintering” seems horribly misnamed. We really need a better word for what Odium does to other Shards.

Murderizing?

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Belzedar said:

Now that we understand what splinters are, “splintering” seems horribly misnamed. We really need a better word for what Odium does to other Shards.

I think splintering is disconnecting. 

The Shard is the sum of all investiture of a certain type bonded together through Connection. And as Splinters show, even when it is separated from the main portion of the Shard, the Shard is not diminished. 

Spoilered for length

Spoiler

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half(-ish) Shards are whole at-- during Shadows of Self. Is that counting Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, one more time.

Little Wilson

You mentioned that half-- like I think it was at the Bands of Mourning release party-- you said that "half-ish Shards are whole" during Shadows of Self.

Brandon Sanderson

"Half-ish Shards are whole?"

Little Wilson

Yeah, you didn't want to do the math, because it was-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get it. You're saying-- Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm trying to think of Shards that are half-powered. That's not what you're saying. Half of the existing Shards. 

Little Wilson

Yes, yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, got it. Yeah.

Little Wilson

And does that-- is that counting Splinters? Splintered Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, no. I mean, a-- Splintered is one of the ways that they are not considered whole.

Zas678

Like completely Splintered as in Dominion and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. That's what-- That's the opposite of whole.

Zas678

But having a Splinter, like Endowment...

Little Wilson

Because I-- I was kind of going with "Shattered" <and> "Splintered". So Shattered would be kind of what I was going with Devotion and Dominion. 

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Little Wilson

And then Splintered would be more like... You mentioned that Honor kind of Splintered himself off to create the spren before--

Isaac Stewart

Oh, and that's mentioned isn't it?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, but you've got to keep in mind that-- um... So in Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that. And so that thing is we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and the killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole as I was making it for you there.

source

When a Shard is splintered, there is no longer anything binding any of that investiture together. So I think that splintering strips that investiture of the internal Connection that makes it cohesive.