[OB] Cultivation's purpose

[MonsterMetroid]

I was talking with my brother the other day, when he mentioned an interesting concept that I thought I would share with you guys. That Cultivation Pruned Dalinar so that he can become Honor. To what extent we don't know yet but let's look at the quote:

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This will be your boon. I will not make of you the man you can become. I will not give you the aptitude, or the strength, nor will I take from you your compulsions.

But I will give you . . . a pruning. A careful excision to let you grow. The cost will be high.

In doing this, I provide for him a weapon. Dangerous, very dangerous. Yet, all things must be cultivated. What I take from you will grow back eventually. This is part of the cost.

It will do me well to have a part of you, even if you ultimately become his. You were always bound to come to me. I control all things that can be grown, nurtured.

That includes the thorns.

This tells us about what she did. She was able to prune things from dalinar to allow him to grow. She didn't add anything she basically shaped parts of dalinar to remove temporarily. Now lets look at this quote: (Sorry I dont have the ebook so its a picture)

There is the question in the text "Do you know why she did that?" to me that means not only did cultivation have a purpose with the pruning but Brandon is setting up this question to eventually be answered!

Now if you were Cultivation, you had pretty good shardic future sight maybe among the best, and you were stuck in a war against Odium by yourself what would you want? Backup, a second shard. I believe she saw in dalinar a way to shape him so that he would bond the Stormfather, become a bondsmith, and start to learn how to use Honors powers. We have seen in mistborn

Spoiler

That vin was able to gather the parts of preservation and ascend.

This could very well be what Cultivation has planned for Dalinar similiarly. Dalniar has changed a lot from the man he used to be and we have seen dalinar already take a step in that direction anyways.

Thanks to my brother for pointing it out(If he ever makes an account on the shard I will tag him ) 

[RShara]

I don't know if he's intended to take up a Shard, but he's definitely going to be a powerful ally.  And yes, I agree that it was her plan and hope the whole time.

[Drag0nR3born]

One thing I don't really understand about what Cultivation said is the part:

Quote

24 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

In doing this, I provide for him a weapon. Dangerous, very dangerous

 

It seems to me that Dalinar was more of a weapon for Odium before the pruning.  The Thrill seemed to affect him more and he did some terrible things like the Rift.  After the pruning, Dalinar became a better man and was able to fight the Thrill more effectively.  I guess Cultivation could have meant that when his memories returned, he might break and allow Odium to take responsibility for the pain but seems like that was going to happen anyway without her intervention so I do not see the danger.  Seemed like her only option.  I believe before Cultivation's intervention, Dalinar would have accepted Odium's offer to remove his pain so I think she removed a potential future weapon from Odium rathan than providing one.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Drag0nR3born

[digitalbusker]

@Drag0nR3born, I'm not sure Dalinar would have made it to the next Desolation without this intervention. But I suspect what she meant by "weapon" was the possibility of Odium prematurely returning his memories. 

[SpeakoftheDeval]

6 minutes ago, Drag0nR3born said:

One thing I don't really understand about what Cultivation said is the part:

It seems to me that Dalinar was more of a weapon for Odium before the pruning.  The Thrill seemed to affect him more and he did some terrible things like the Rift.  After the pruning, Dalinar became a better man and was able to fight the Thrill more effectively.  I guess Cultivation could have meant that when his memories returned, he might break and allow Odium to take responsibility for the pain but seems like that was going to happen anyway without her intervention so I do not see the danger.  Seemed like her only option.  I believe before Cultivation's intervention, Dalinar would have accepted Odium's offer to remove his pain so I think she removed a potential future weapon from Odium rathan than providing one.

Except, if an unpruned Dalinar had broken, the worst that could happen is Odium gets a human champion he can bond unmade to. If Dalinar had broken in OB (after the pruning led him to become a bondsmith) Odium would have gotten a void bondsmith and an indirect Connection to the Stormfather which seems no bueno 

[Drag0nR3born]

5 minutes ago, MadhavDeval said:

Except, if an unpruned Dalinar had broken, the worst that could happen is Odium gets a human champion he can bond unmade to. If Dalinar had broken in OB (after the pruning led him to become a bondsmith) Odium would have gotten a void bondsmith and an indirect Connection to the Stormfather which seems no bueno 

Yea, I could see that ending poorly lol

[Calderis]

Pretty sure that in giving in to Odium he would have broken his bond. The gain would be wounding/killing the Stormfather... Which would devastate Roshar. 

As far as what Dalinar actually would be able to do, I don't think he'd have gotten anything inherently. 

As to the OP, I definitely agree that she was hoping he would grow into the man he has, but as to reforming Honor... 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Preservation was whole when Vin took it up, so it's not quite the same situation. 

It may be her goal, her future sight seems ridiculously good. I'm not sure if she was planning on him somehow fixing a splintered Shard. 

[MonsterMetroid]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It may be her goal, her future sight seems ridiculously good. I'm not sure if she was planning on him somehow fixing a splintered Shard. 

And you could be right but a demi shard is a pretty good replacement. I think all of us agree though that cultivations future sight seems to be among the best we have seen so far. That makes me think that her plans for Dalinar hasn't come to full fruition yet.

It is super interesting to think though how close Dalinar is to ALL 3 SHARDS on the world. Seems crazy to me miracle the man hasn't been pulled apart.

[Song]

Cultivation's planning bore fruit, but she did not sound confident of the result. Her speech almost sounded like: This might end in disaster but this is what my nature leads me to do. So while her future sight won over Odiums in this instance I don't want to say she plans for the future better than anyone when she herself doesn't seem to imply that.

 

[Llarimar]

On 1/18/2018 at 2:21 PM, MonsterMetroid said:

Now if you were Cultivation, you had pretty good shardic future sight maybe among the best, and you were stuck in a war against Odium by yourself what would you want? Backup, a second shard. I believe she saw in dalinar a way to shape him so that he would bond the Stormfather, become a bondsmith, and start to learn how to use Honors powers. 

This is definitely an interesting idea.  Many people have suggested that Dalinar might take up the shard of Honor, but I haven't seem someone propose that this was Cultivation's express intention - I've just always assumed, like @RShara said above, that Cultivation wanted Dalinar as an ally, and as a tool for defeating Odium, not necessarily that she wanted him to become Honor.

Like @Calderis says as well, I am not sure if this would work the same as we have seen in other books, because Honor is splintered - the way that Odium kills gods, I think, makes it more difficult if not impossible for a new Vessel to take up the Shard.  

I also feel like it's difficult for us to know if this was Cultivation's intention, because we know so little about her plans and her relationship with Honor.  I have always assumed that they were allies in the fight against Odium, but I think that Cultivation is much more complicated than we realize - perhaps she doesn't want to revive the shard of Honor, because she doesn't want to share power with him when she topples Odium, or because of some other reason.  In addition, I believe it has been revealed (either in the book or somewhere else, I'm not sure), that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved.  Perhaps it may be painful for Cultivation if someone else were to Ascend and become Honor - she would then have to share her dominion not only with someone she doesn't love, but with someone who is holding the power of the man she did love.  

[MonsterMetroid]

Just now, Llarimar said:

Perhaps it may be painful for Cultivation if someone else were to Ascend and become Honor - she would then have to share her dominion not only with someone she doesn't love, but with someone who is holding the power of the man she did love.  

I was thinking that originally.... but what if Cultivation and honor the shards are romantically involved, not the vessels. We have seen how the shards can morph all other personality of the holders I don't see why this couldnt be the case as well. Which if it was then she would definately want him to come back whole.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I was thinking that originally.... but what if Cultivation and honor the shards are romantically involved, not the vessels. We have seen how the shards can morph all other personality of the holders I don't see why this couldnt be the case as well. Which if it was then she would definately want him to come back whole.

This would imply that the Shards themselves have some emotional drive. I think for that they'd need to have developed a mind of their own, which would negate the need for a Vessel. 

[Llarimar]

1 minute ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I was thinking that originally.... but what if Cultivation and honor the shards are romantically involved, not the vessels. We have seen how the shards can morph all other personality of the holders I don't see why this couldnt be the case as well. Which if it was then she would definately want him to come back whole.

That's an interesting idea.  Perhaps Cultivation and Honor were not romantically involved before they took up the Shards - taking up a Shard can change someone's personality, we have seen, so perhaps when they Ascended they became drawn to each other whereas before they were not.  However, if this is the case, does this mean that Dalinar will find himself changed if he becomes Honor, so that he suddenly becomes romantically drawn to Cultivation?  ...That seems unlikely to me - I don't think it's Cultivation's intention to reincarnate her lover.  Although, who knows... the Vessels are gods, yes, but they are still very human, as we have seen.  

In addition, and we know so little about Cultivation so it's hard to make speculations, but I feel like Cultivation is controlled and "business-like" enough to not let her emotions get the better of her.  If she feels that reforming the shard of Honor will make a real difference in defeating Odium, she would probably work to achieve it, even if it may be painful for her to see Honor reformed without it being Tanavast. 

[MonsterMetroid]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This would imply that the Shards themselves have some emotional drive. I think for that they'd need to have developed a mind of their own, which would negate the need for a Vessel. 

Well isn't hate a emotion which odium has plenty of? Unless there is a shard that encompassess love, god's own divine love, and romantic love had to go somewhere just as Odium
 

Quote

bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by MonsterMetroid

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Well isn't hate a emotion which odium has plenty of? Unless there is a shard that encompassess love, god's own divine love, and romantic love had to go somewhere just as Odium

It is, and there's a difference in my mind between that emotion being encompassed in the power, and that emotion being attached to things via interpretation of that emotion. Those are the actions/feelings of a person, not a force. Which is why I brought up that the power can develop a mind. Without doing so though I just don't see it. 

Additionally, love is one of the Shards we know. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/205/#e4539

Quote

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Aona equal Love or Compassion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

Puck (paraphrased)

Does Skai equal Devotion or Order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona].

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198/#e4228

Quote

Chaos

So Aona is a synonym for love, hmm? Is Charity the correct Shard name?

Brandon Sanderson

Not quite. I’m trying to remember what the guesses were for the other Shard on Sel. I may have dismissed them too quickly.

Chaos

How about Mercy for Aona, then? The guesses for Skai’s Shard include Devotion, Obedience, and Order

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, I was right, then. Ha There’s something very ironic in all of this.

Devotion is love, just as Odium is hate. 

[Llarimar]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Devotion is love, just as Odium is hate. 

Wait... so those WoBs confuse me a bit - Aona is Devotion, and Skai is Dominion, right?  Are the questioners getting it backwards?  (They guess two times that Skai is Devotion.)

Also, I'm not sure if we should take Brandon's comment that love is a synonym for devotion as iron proof that there isn't a shard of Love.  I would be surprised if there were a shard Love, just because it's so similar to Devotion, but I still think it's possible.  There are, after all, other shards in the cosmere with vaguely similar ideals, like Ambition and Autonomy.  

 

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

Wait... so those WoBs confuse me a bit - Aona is Devotion, and Skai is Dominion, right?  Are the questioners getting it backwards?  (They guess two times that Skai is Devotion.) 

This was before we had confirmation of the names of the Shards on Sel. The reason that Brandon laughs and mentions irony is because they were guessing he name of one Shard for the other. 

15 minutes ago, Llarimar said:

There are, after all, other shards in the cosmere with vaguely similar ideals, like Ambition and Autonomy.  

I fail to see the similarity personally. Autonomy is all about freedom and self actualization. Ambition is about improvement and gain. Ambition does not require self-reliance. Much can be gained through serving something/someone greater. 

[Llarimar]

Just now, Calderis said:

I fail to see the similarity personally. Autonomy is all about freedom and self actualization. Ambition is about improvement and gain. Ambition does not require self-reliance. Much can be gained through serving something/someone greater. 

I suppose that's true, Devotion and Love are much more similar than Autonomy and Ambition.

And that makes sense about the WoBs, that's sort of what I was assuming.  I'm always impressed how Brandon is able to keep such a tight lid on secrets while maintaining a very active presence with his fanbase.  If it were me, I feel like I would accidentally let spoilers slip through all the time during question-and-answer sessions.  

[deeptheory]

I am copy pasta'ing this from a reddit post I did today as I am ready to dive into the deep end of cosmere theories and speculation as I am current in SA, finished Elantris, and almost done with MB Era1...

Anyways, I believe Cultivation is going to be the master of the 'long con' (long term planning and deception) ...

 

I have deep crazy theories about Cultivation and Honor. We know that Honor has been shattered, but does that mean that his power is gone forever or is someone just waiting to take that power. This is something I haven't discovered in the cosmere yet.  Yes Honor was 'shattered/splintered' but ... I think there is evidence that it can be reclaimed?

Shards essentially have the 'intent' of their namesake. This is pretty malleable and not necessarily meant to be a strict interpretation. Honor was 'honor', but eventually became obsessed mainly with the honor of oaths/contracts/promises, which essentially all that honor really is. Honoring your promises/obligations/contracts, etc, is being honorable. Part of being honorable is also knowing when those contracts are 'bad' or 'unfair', and how they ought to bend/break if necessary. Anyways, we then have Cultivation.

Cultivation, to me, is the idea of planning, making minor adjustments, and 'cultivating' people/things into greater people/things. One of the few shards (that we know of) that actually contains the idea of creation/growth in their namesake. To cultivate something you want to grow it. It's very possible that Cultivation could be responsible for regrowing Adalnasium(sp?). It's possible it's working towards growing or cultivating some other power. We also know that there is some being/person out there who actually holds the power of cultivation. Perhaps Honor's death, which he seemed to prepare for was part of an even longer plan that cultivation is a part of. Basically to me, with the idea that these shards have been around for a very long time since the shattering, cultivation ought to be one of the most powerful ones due to the nature of what I believe cultivations intent is.

 

I am very interested to see her involvement in the second half of the series, I imagine in true Sanderson fashion we will be left with a monumental revelation about Cultivation (and probably Honor) at the end of Book 5 in some epic sanderstorm avalance. 

[Blazenella]

*cough* Ahem!

Quote

Questioner

Can it be restored? The splinters

Brandon Sanderson

Um, splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new vessel would have to take it.

Questioner

Ok so, [Adonalsium] can be put back together?

Brandon Sanderson

Adonalsium? Ok it is theoretically possible to put a Shard back into, you know, to meld Shards together. The fact that we have already seen someone meld powers, in Sazed. So yes, but the question is who or what was Adonalsium, and is putting it back together going to do anything? Or...

There ya go

[deeptheory]

@Blazenella  Awesome, thank you for that.  So yes, Honor could potentially be reforged or recreated.  I've actually recently (I've been diving DEEP today) seen some other ideas that another shard could absorb honor's splinters/power if they aligned closely enough (Oh, hey Cultivation)...  anyways...  I saw another that Cultivation could be shaping Dalinar to be a 3 Shard holder.  I think they wanted to call the combined 3 (Honor, Cultivation, Odium) as Guidance or something... wish I had saved it, I'll have to go find it now, and that could be the end game of SA Arc 2 (maybe 1).

 

And I found the source : Posting below cause I can't seem to edit it in as a quote?... idk new here.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by deeptheory

[deeptheory]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:34 PM, Leyrann said:

Tranquiline Halls are Ashyn though, not Yolen.

Personal theory: Book 5 is going to end with Dalinar reforging Honor and creating a new Oathpact, with our main characters (maybe the 10 that get flashbacks, in which case Dalinar wouldn't Ascend (yet)) staying on Braize for the 15 year break. After that, the true Last Desolation comes, which is almost a battle of the Shards, and ends with the triple Shard Guidance (honor + growth + passion), held by Dalinar, Lift or Adolin.

But hey, knowing Brandon there's going to be 200 unexpected but heavily foreshadowed plot twists and in the end Azure takes up Cultivation, Rysn takes up Odium/Passion and Kelsier takes up Honor.

@Leyrann tagging you because I love this theory.