[OB] What does Jasnah know about Hoid?

[Llarimar he/him]

This may have been discussed already in another thread, but did anyone else think Jasnah's conversation with Hoid at the end of WoR was really strange, especially considering that it was barely mentioned during OB?  When Jasnah Elsecalls into Shinovar, she seems pretty untroubled (or as Brandon would say, "nonplussed") to find Hoid sitting there, waiting for her. 

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She stabbed her hand out in the blink of an eye, mist twisting around her arm and snapping into the form of a long, thin sword pointed at Wit's neck.

He cocked an eyebrow.

"How did you find me?" she asked.

"You've been making quite a disturbance on the other side," Wit said.  "It's been a long time since the spren had to deal with someone alive, particularly someone so demanding as yourself."

She hissed out a breath, then pushed the Shardblade closer.  "Tell me what you know, Wit."  

This whole conversation is very unusual, considering that everyone else in Roshar for the most part treats Wit like a foolish court jester - no one is aware of the fact that he is intelligent and important to the larger cosmere.  Jasnah, however, instead of being surprised to find him there, immediately begins interrogating him, assuming that he knows important things.  

A couple questions arise from this.  For one thing, when does Jasnah realize that Hoid/Wit is more than just a simple court jester?  Does this happen before she enters Shadesmar, or does she somehow learn more about Hoid during her journey?  In addition, why does she still call him Wit?  I suppose it's possible that she learned more about him in Shadesmar without discovering his real name (or, well, his main alias), but this somehow seems unlikely.  She apparently knows, when she exits Shadesmar, that Hoid is important and that he knows things, and yet she still doesn't know his name.

We know from OB that Hoid tells Jasnah about the reason for the Recreance (or at least, he tells her a part of the story).  Is this the information that Jasnah was specifically looking for from Hoid, or does she just know that he is full of cosmere knowledge in general?  Her pointed question - "Tell me what you know" makes it seem like there is something in particular that she is looking for from him. 

In OB, Jasnah only refers to her conversation with Hoid once when speaking with Ivory, and besides that she doesn't say anything about him, or mention him to any other character.  

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"We must tell the others what we learned from Wit, Ivory.  Eventually, the secret must be known."  (pg. 480)

Even here, she refers to him by Wit, which suggests that she really doesn't know his name is Hoid (or Cephandrius, or something else).  However, she doesn't talk about Wit at any other point in the book, or tell another character that she realizes he is important.  This makes me wonder if Jasnah is possibly working with him (or else she is just her normal enigmatic self and is paranoid about telling people anything).

So here is what we know:

   1.  Jasnah seems to realize Hoid is important when she exits Shadesmar.  It is unclear if she knew this before she entered Shadesmar.

   2.  When she exits Shademsar, it is implied that Hoid has been looking for her, and that she has possibly been trying to evade him ("How did you find me?").

   3.  There seems to be specific information she wants to get from Hoid ("Tell me what you know.").  It is unclear if she realizes that he knows about the Recreance, or if he proffers that information freely.

   3.  Jasnah doesn't mention Hoid to anyone throughout all of OB, and her strange encounter with him in Shinovar is not brought up.

I was expecting the Jasnah-Hoid meeting to be more important in OB, because it comprised the final pages of WoR.  But the fact that their meeting is barely mentioned at all is even more telling, and prolongs the mystery of their interaction.  What do you guys think about the situation with Jasnah and Hoid/Wit?  What does she know about him, how could she have gained that information while in Shadesmar, and how will she work with him/deal with him in future books?

[Calderis he/him]

He told her the secret of the Recreance, and presumably about the Heralds and the Oathpact, seeing as the drawings that were used at the end to identify Taln and Ash were drawn by him. 

At some point she may have been suspicious of him in the past, and his presence was enough, but I suspect she did hear word of him in Shadesmar. He has a fairly distinct description, so tying things to him wouldn't be too difficult, but his name doesn't seem to be super well known. He has so many aliases for a reason, most seem to know him by different ones. 

I think it is pretty much that, the Recreance, the Heralds, Honor's death, and Odium and Cultivation. That and the things we saw in WoR. 

[HoidsRock]

The fact that Jasnah calls him Wit and not Hoid has bugged me for a while.  Wit seems to be a title entirely from his role in Elkohar's court (although we know from the Second Letter that apparently Hoid thinks it's appropriate).  I don't believe Jasnah was ever with the Alethi armies on the Shattered Plains and based on this statement from Adolin makes, it seems that he is new to the position.

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This new Wit had been with them for some months, and there was something … different about him.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 198). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

On the other hand, we have this statement from Jasnah to Shallan while in Kharbranth:

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“I prefer my wards to be clever,” Jasnah said. “It gives me more to work with. I should bring you to court with me. I suspect that Wit, at least, would find you amusing—if only because your apparent natural timidity and your clever tongue make such an intriguing combination.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 461). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So Jasnah knows of Wit in his role in court.  How?  If Jasnah had called him Hoid, I would have no problem believing their paths had crossed.  Maybe their paths crossed before Wit's initial journey to the Shattered Plains?  He told he planned to become Wit and she found out by spanreed he was successful.

Alternately, given his coming and going, he met Jasnah after becoming Wit and yet still was able to prove his bona fides to her as the King's Wit.  But mostly I am stymied.

Edited January 13, 2018 by HoidsRock
Added Jasnah's name in last paragraph.

[Calderis he/him]

"Wit" seems to be both name and title, as if in taking the role, your previous identity loses meaning. Hoid has also not identified himself by the name we know to anyone we're aware of on Roshar save Dalinar. I wouldn't be surprised if Sigzil knows his name though. 

He is a known entity on Roshar though, and that's proven. Rocks story if the God coming out of the pool in the peaks, who is incapable of hurting anyone shows that Hoid has been around on Roshar intermittently long enough to influence entire belief systems. It's not surprising that he would be a subject that Jasnah could learn of in Shadesmar.the accuracy of that information though?

[Cosmé he/him]

Jasnah is paranoid, and a rationalist. It’s realistic, I think, to expect her to jump to conclusions when she sees that the Alethi court jester happens to be sitting near a perpendicularity that’s in the complete middle of nowhere. She’s probably worried that he’s working with the ghostbloods at first, because they had just tried to assasinate her the last time she was in the physical realm. When he mentions that he knows what she’s up to in the cognitive realm, that’s proof that he’s one of maybe thirty people on all of Roshar that knows that much about how the world works. That’s good reason to ask him some questions, especially knowing that he had situated himself so close to the king in the Alethi court. For all she knew, he could have been an assasin sent to work himself close to the king.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

12 hours ago, Llarimar said:

or else she is just her normal enigmatic self and is paranoid about telling people anything

This. Jasnah is paranoid and cautious. She just popped out of Shadesmar in the middle of nowhere after an attempted assassination to find someone waiting for her. Her first thought is that he's there to finish the job. Her question could simply be demanding how he found her. 

I don't think Jasnah's lack of surprise should necessarily be evidence she knew who he was. She's calm and collected by nature, and it takes a lot to break her composure. 

[Llarimar he/him]

5 hours ago, Cosmé said:

Jasnah is paranoid, and a rationalist. It’s realistic, I think, to expect her to jump to conclusions when she sees that the Alethi court jester happens to be sitting near a perpendicularity that’s in the complete middle of nowhere. She’s probably worried that he’s working with the ghostbloods at first, because they had just tried to assasinate her the last time she was in the physical realm. 

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

She just popped out of Shadesmar in the middle of nowhere after an attempted assassination to find someone waiting for her. Her first thought is that he's there to finish the job. Her question could simply be demanding how he found her. 

I don't think Jasnah's lack of surprise should necessarily be evidence she knew who he was. She's calm and collected by nature, and it takes a lot to break her composure. 

Okay, I think I agree with this.  It seems unlikely based on the evidence that Jasnah knows who Hoid really is.  Seeing the court jester, however, sitting there waiting for her when she exits Shadesmar, would be surprising enough for her to immediately question his presence.  We know from the quote that @HoidsRock cited that Jasnah knew has probably met Hoid before (as Wit).  Exiting Shademsar, and recognizing the King's Wit sitting there, some people might begin the conversation with, "Aren't you Wit?  What are you doing here?" but Jasnah immediately is cool and collected assumes that he is dangerous or important, and that he has possibly been sent to assassinate her.

I like the idea that Jasnah suspects that Wit was a part of the Ghostbloods.  Perhaps this was a suspicion that Hoid exploited, openly admitting to Jasnah that he was a member of the Ghostbloods.  I know it's a bit far fetched, but what if Hoid is working with the Ghostbloods, or has some sort of correspondence with them?  (Someone can probably refute that with a WoB or something, but it's an interesting idea.)  If that's the case, perhaps the Ghostbloods asked Hoid to throw her off the scent, and make it seem like they no longer want to assassinate Jasnah.  Hoid's comments may have gone something like, "Yes, I'm a member of the Ghostbloods, and we don't want to kill you anymore, and in fact we have valuable information that we believe may be helpful."  This would allow Jasnah to immediately place Hoid within a larger context - she wouldn't be confused about who he is or why he knows so much.  She would just assume that he is one of the Ghostbloods, and that would answer everything for her.  It would be mutually helpful for Hoid (because he wants to tell Jasnah about the Recreance), and for the Ghostbloods (because they want to smooth out relations with Jasnah).

 

[Ashaman_Wade he/him]

So, Jasnah knowing that Wit has knowledge equal to what the actual faces of the heralds are means that she will be the first cosmere character, who isn't a worldhopper, that knows Wit is special. Am I wrong on That? 

 

Also, he is no longer the kings Wit peasants. He is now a form of property to Jasnah, queen of Alethkar. 

On a tangent, what if there is a future where Hoid takes Jasnah as a ward. Even Jasnah meeting Khriss and Nazh is kind of thrilling, she would be a much better PoV character than a survivor just trying to muddle through. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Ashaman_Wade
On mobile

[red032 he/him]

By what we see Jasnah doing on the battle of Thaylen City, we can guess that she had some extensive training. I look forward to read about her adventures on Shadesmar and the time she spent with Wit

[Jimpy he/him]

On 1/13/2018 at 0:31 AM, Calderis said:

He told her the secret of the Recreance, and presumably about the Heralds and the Oathpact, seeing as the drawings that were used at the end to identify Taln and Ash were drawn by him. 

The drawings were not done by Hoid, they were in the Oilsworn's style, but Hoid is not the Oilsworn. Shallan is the one who uses the Oilsworn's style, I'm pretty sure she just used her fantastic memory to draw them. She's for sure seen Taln, I can't remember if/when she saw Ash.

[Weltall]

Uhh, yeah they were:

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That’s his drawing style, a part of Ash noted. Why has Midius been giving away pictures of us?

Ash explicitly recognizes that these pictures came from Hoid and that they're exact drawings, not the representations common in Vorin iconography which is what the Oilsworn would have used. I think you're getting your wires crossed with the scene when Ash first shows up, when she destroys a painting by the Oilsworn.

On 1/13/2018 at 4:53 PM, Ashaman_Wade said:

Also, he is no longer the kings Wit peasants. He is now a form of property to Jasnah, queen of Alethkar. 

On a tangent, what if there is a future where Hoid takes Jasnah as a ward. Even Jasnah meeting Khriss and Nazh is kind of thrilling, she would be a much better PoV character than a survivor just trying to muddle through. 

I'm sure Her Highness Jasnah would be thrilled to see Hoid show up accompanied by a hundred chasmfiends marching in unison singing an ode to his magnificence, asking for his old job back. xD

And while I think that if anyone could be considered 'Hoid's ward' in the series so far it would definitely be Shallan, the thought of Jasnah and Khriss meeting is definitely one of those encounters that would so redefine awesomeness that 1) Lift would have to find a new word to describe her power and 2) Brandon would have to invent a whole new word for it because 'awesomeness' just wouldn't be awesome enough.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Weltall

[Frostlander]

Boring, non-fun answer: "Wit" was the least confusing thing she could call that character in a dramatic scene being read by the "average fan." 

[Carla Bridge Four]

Am I the only one really wanting Sigzil reunion with Wit ? Being nearby Jasnah could provide an opportunity, I hope.

Also, brilliant ideas you all

[cfphelps he/him]

On 1/13/2018 at 8:50 AM, HoidsRock said:

 I don't believe Jasnah was ever with the Alethi armies on the Shattered Plains and based on this statement from Adolin makes, it seems that he is new to the position.

 

I believe Dalinar talks about wishing Jasnah would return to the war camps to help several times during WoK (as well ask asking her during their Span Reed conversation after he digs the latrine with his plate and war hammer), so my impression was Jasnah had indeed been with the war camps at the Shattered Plains.  He could have been referring to her being with the group before he made his way to the Shattered Plains, but we know from OB that he was basically in a drunken stupor until he met with the Night Watcher on his way to the Shattered Plains, so it seems that she would have been involved in the war camps after he lost his Evi memories and was able to move on and concentrate on the Vengeance Pact.

Also I am pretty sure when Jasnah tells Shallan that they are going to the Shattered Plains she says she's been away from there for too long.

[SylBlessed]

I feel like aside from King T on his genius days, she is by and large the most intelligent character without a doubt in the entire cosmere. I think she has more knowledge of the cosmere as a whole than any single character in a cosmere book to date. That being said, she's almost guaranteed to know more about hoid than the average reader can expect. This leads me to believe that she absolutely knows either who Hoid is, or what his endgame is. I feel like if we were to compare cosmere to the milky way galaxy that she is the equivalent of Stephen Hawking and Galileo having a super smart baby. That must mean she has a higher grasp of the goings on in the greater cosmere. I welcome any and all debate as it makes my brain tingle with delight at what is yet to come. Someone please prove me wrong and/or agree with me lol. 

[Weltall]

First, welcome to.the Shard!

Second, Jasnah is not Cosmere-aware. Aside from whatever she's gleaned feom Hoid her knowledge is strictly confined to Roshar.

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Questioner

<Does Jasnah know about Adonalsium?>

Brandon Sanderson

No, she is not specifically cosmere-aware.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Thrid, Taravangian is only marginally Cosmere-aware.

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Blightsong

How much did Super Mind Taravangian know about the Cosmere as a whole, roughly, rough estimate.

Brandon Sanderson

He had a little bit of knowledge. Not as much as... not as much conscious knowledge.

Blightsong

Did he guess about the three realms?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he knew about the three realms. He didn't have to guess on that, he had read philosophy and things, that knowledge is there on Roshar

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Fourth, by far the most Cosmere-aware character is Khriss, then Hoid and Nazh at least, and probably Frost.

Fifth, this topic was dead for almost a year and a half...

Edited June 28, 2019 by Weltall

[Karger he/him]

If I had to hazard a guess I think that Wit would have at some point had a conversation with Jasnah similar to the ones he had with Dalinar, Kaladin or Shallan(before they decided about radiance).  I also think that Jasnah being Jasnah would probably learn that Wit aka Hoid is extremely old and has knowlege of all three realms from hints dropped during this conversation or research afterward.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

First, welcome to.the Shard!

Second, Jasnah is not Cosmere-aware. Aside from whatever she's gleaned feom Hoid her knowledge is strictly confined to Roshar.

Thrid, Taravangian is only marginally Cosmere-aware.

Fourth, by far the most Cosmere-aware character is Khriss, then Hoid and Nazh at least, and probably Frost.

Fifth, this topic was dead for almost a year and a half...

All true, but she will catch up fast

 

Cultivation's Champ

I wonder whether Jasnah has been to the Cognitive Realm of planets other than Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

She has not, she is not horribly cosmere-aware as of the end of Oathbringer, she is starting to get-- *inaudible* Give her some time and you might be impressed with how quickly she can come up to speed.

[Weltall]

Well that's fair, she is a scholar and has shown herself able to adapt to new information quickly even if it means having to discard what she previously was certain of because it no longer fits the facts. But right now she's so far below the level of Khriss or anyone from the university in Silverlight (or any of the known worldhoppers on Roshar, especially the Seventeenth Shard members) that there's just no comparison.

I do have 'Jasnah and Khriss' as one of the meetings I'd most like to see happen in the Cosmere, because I'm certain that we'd come as close as anything to seeing the former dance a jig in excitement at just how much she could learn from the latter. And I'm sure the opportunity to interview an Elsecaller would make Khriss pretty happy too.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Weltall

[Pathfinder]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:44 PM, Weltall said:

Well that's fair, she is a scholar and has shown herself able to adapt to new information quickly even if it means having to discard what she previously was certain of because it no longer fits the facts. But right now she's so far below the level of Khriss or anyone from the university in Silverlight (or any of the known worldhoppers on Roshar, especially the Seventeenth Shard members) that there's just no comparison.

I do have 'Jasnah and Khriss' as one of the meetings I'd most like to see happen in the Cosmere, because I'm certain that we'd come as close as anything to seeing the former dance a jig in excitement at just how much she could learn from the latter. And I'm sure the opportunity to interview an Elsecaller would make Khriss pretty happy too.

Lol, no problem. Didn't say anything you wrote was incorrect. Just that Jasnah being Jasnah, that is going to change very quickly. She already has a decent base with her understanding of the three realms, and acknowledging that the shards are not gods. The rest (there being other planets out there and other magic systems), I think will come pretty naturally to her, especially given her power set (once she learns how to get a spren off planet and still fuel her surges of course)