[OB] Loose Ends

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Strifelover said:

Plot twist! Book 4 opens with the execution of Adolin and Kaladin for the murder and attempted murder of Sadeas and Elhokar following a lengthy trial during the time gap. ;-D

Plot twist! Book 4 opens up with Adolin being escorted to his execution. The next scene is Kaladin/Shallan plotting to rescue him. Ensue the first book which starts with an avalanche as Adolin is saved from a sure death 

[Subvisual Haze]

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I see it less as questioning Kaladin and more as asking what happened to two (supposedly precious) shards.  I would think someone would ask the question about how a Kholin shardbearer just disappeared taking his shards with him.  There is a factual explanation for this (said shardbearer tried to kill the king and then ran away when Kaladin stopped him), but I don't see Kaladin being able to give the explanation without telling his part in it.  So, I'm assuming no one even asked what happened to those shards.  And that's just inconsistent with their supposed value.  (Or if someone asked and Kaladin lied, that's a big issue too!)

Because it probably would have been a boring scene where nobody learned anything.  Armageddon just began, a hurricane is blowing the wrong way around the planet, the parshmen proletariat is in uprising, communication is lost with the capital city, the greatest lost city in the world was just found, and magical powers assumed dead for thousands of years are suddenly back.  Cats and dogs living together!  A missing dude with a shardlbade is likely not even in the top ten list of anyone's immediate priorities.  Add in that they just exited a cataclysmic battle with a huge number of allied soldiers likely presumed dead or missing, and people are likely very confused and not particularly surprised by absence of specific soldiers.

The only two coalition characters who have any idea of what occured with Moash are Kaladin and Elhokar, and both of them would be pleased as punch to not discuss the matter any more.  Kaladin would have been ashamed by his previous actions and Elhokar wouldn't exactly want to advertise that he got blackout drunk out of self-pity over his own failures as a ruler and had to have his life saved by Kaladin.  Add in the fact that Kaladin doesn't really fit into the command structure and regards orders as akin to friendly suggestions, and can literally fly and you'd probably get a scene like this:

[Adolin] "Hey Bridgeboy, what happened to that darkeyed bridgeman you gave your shards to?  The one who looked especially angry and scowled even more than you!

[Kaladin] /broods "Moash has left the fellowship..." /scowls /gazes thoughtfully into the distance while his clothes ripple dramatically in the wind and random passersby stop to stare at him in wonderment

[Adolin] "What does that...?"

[Kaladin] "MY PEOPLE HEARTHSTONE NEEDS ME" /exit stage up

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Because it probably would have been a boring scene where nobody learned anything. 

Only if you think Dalinar finding out that Kaladin was involved in the plot to kill Elhonar boring. Or you think it wouldn't cause Kaladin any consternation to lie about what happened. But I agree it seems swept under the rug. 

[Subvisual Haze]

One of my favorite creative decisions in Oathbringer is that Shallan finding out Kaladin was responsible for killing her brother isn't a big thing like almost everyone expected it would be.  Instead of screaming, or hating him without telling him, or suddenly physically attacking him as an enemy like you would expect in a shlocky piece of fiction, she just takes it in with a dulled sense of sadness.  Like an adult.  Not every potential point of contention between characters needs to be dragged into the spotlight at the most contrived moment to generate stilted DRAMA which usually contributes nothing more than Character X distrusts Character Y for an arbitrary period of time.

Also, even if correct, Dalinar would look like the most gigantic hypocritical tool ever if he suddenly started doubting the motives of a man who has single handedly saved the lives of himself 3 times (Tower battle, twice from Szeth), his eldest son 4 times (Tower, arena, Szeth twice) and his youngest son (arena) over the course of just a couple weeks.

[Dreamstorm]

Kaladin killing Heleran was still addressed. I’m not dictating how this would be addressed (it would have been great actually to see Dalinar be understanding, in terms of both Dalinar’s and Kaladin’s growth and acceptance of mistakes), but the fact it was not addressed at all (besides an off hand mention by someone in Bridge Four, I forget who, that Kaladin hadn’t explained what happened to Moash) is something which annoys me. 

Oh, and on the thinking about shards in a desolation, in other contexts there is still plenty of thought to this; retrieving Teleb’s shardblade after he fell, the fact his shardplate has to be left was noted, Adolin telling Skar and Drehy to pick up the pieces of his shardplate after Narak, when that shardbearer fell at Thaylen City someone’s (I think it was Adolin’s?) first thought was to retrieve the shardblade. It seems incongruous that a full shardbearer goes missing and nary a thought is given. If you’re fine with it that’s cool though! I’m guessing you have other little things which nag you, and this is one which does for me 

[hypatia she/her]

To start with - I love OB, I really do, but...

It's not so much loose ends, there is a discrepance between what each of the people inside the story know and what we, the readers, know. With the multible PoVs and the flashbacks this is the problem I was feeling almost uncomfortable while reading the book.

Moash's assassination attempt is also my prime example, but not so much because of Kaladin's psychological state, more because of the person/the group, who was behind this plan - the Diagram.

Each of the persons knows something of interest for the others, but doesn't tell about it.

At the end I was near a blood fall. when Dalinar further thought about Taravangian - not only because Szeth didn't talk about anything, it could have also be handled with Kaladin's story.

Danlan - what's with her?

Really, I want to imprison everyone of them together in one room and only let them out when they really start to work together.

[wotbibliophile]

17 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

One of my favorite creative decisions in Oathbringer is that Shallan finding out Kaladin was responsible for killing her brother isn't a big thing like almost everyone expected it would be.  Instead of screaming, or hating him without telling him, or suddenly physically attacking him as an enemy like you would expect in a shlocky piece of fiction, she just takes it in with a dulled sense of sadness.  Like an adult.  Not every potential point of contention between characters needs to be dragged into the spotlight at the most contrived moment to generate stilted DRAMA which usually contributes nothing more than Character X distrusts Character Y for an arbitrary period of time.

I think your hopes will be dashed. Shallan does have a very strong reaction to Kaladin killing her brother and she suppresses it. I'm pretty sure it will come up again.

[Guest]

My unresolved issues would be:

1) Adolin murdering Sadeas. Seriously, this wasn't even broached nor tackled in any way which feels satisfying. So while it is highly unlikely Brandon will write more on this specific arc, I definitely count it as a "loose end". 

2) Dalinar and Adolin's relationship. Adolin spent the entire book stating/thinking he isn't worthy of Dalinar. He admits feeling pressure to meet his father's impossible expectations and each time he attempt at comparing himself, he feels the lesser man. Late in the book, he speaks of his father as "a God" and of him being "unworthy of standing in his light". He also speaks of not deserving to wear Dalinar's colors. In the flashbacks, we get why he behaves this way: he loves his father, he worships him, but Dalinar spent a decade criticizing and diminishing Adolin's every attempt to get his father's attention once Evi is killed. On his side, Dalinar sees Adolin as perfection incarnated. He thinks of his son as the better man and is seriously deluded in thinking Adolin would inspire and lead the Highprinces effectively. He only finds out about Sadeas late in the book and isn't given much of a reaction. Adolin takes his first stance towards not doing what his father orders of him at the same moment. Is it solved? Is it over? I frankly do not see why Adolin refusing to be king, but accepting to be Highprince, a position he didn't want either, to have fixed his issues towards his father. Now he is the Highprince, will he weight his decision making with Dalinar's? Will Dalinar expect a leadership out of Adolin he isn't able to pull off? Dalinar states he is fine with Adolin murdering Sadeas, is he really fine? Hence, the Dalinar/Adolin relationship is a loose end to me, one I sincerely hope Brandon will attack within the next book.

3) Dalinar's actions at the Rift and Evi's death. Adolin doesn't know the truth and, based on his reaction when he speaks of the event to Kaladin/Shallan, this remains a sore spot. So while Brandon may still pull a Helaran and make meaningless, I personally believe it better fits Adolin's character to not be fine with it.

4) Adolin's Plate has been stolen, who really were Evi/Toh and who does this Plate belongs to. This whole very interesting arc was introduced early in OB, but then dropped. Was it dropped because it will be a topic for book 4? I hope so. I want to know what really happened and why Iri is using this Plate as bargaining money to blackmail Dalinar.

5) Moash running away, stealing Shards, killing Elhokar and Kaladin more or less having allowed those things to happen. This one will probably be a Red Herring though, I hope it will be mentioned for proper continuity, but I doubt it will be meaningful. 

6) Adolin never grieving... I thought his scene with Navani more or less pictured him as someone never taking the time to properly grieve. Seems to me it should be broached, somewhere, but it probably won't.

[Palindrome]

30 minutes ago, maxal said:

My unresolved issues would be:

1) Adolin murdering Sadeas. Seriously, this wasn't even broached nor tackled in any way which feels satisfying. So while it is highly unlikely Brandon will write more on this specific arc, I definitely count it as a "loose end". 

2) Dalinar and Adolin's relationship. Adolin spent the entire book stating/thinking he isn't worthy of Dalinar. He admits feeling pressure to meet his father's impossible expectations and each time he attempt at comparing himself, he feels the lesser man. Late in the book, he speaks of his father as "a God" and of him being "unworthy of standing in his light". He also speaks of not deserving to wear Dalinar's colors. In the flashbacks, we get why he behaves this way: he loves his father, he worships him, but Dalinar spent a decade criticizing and diminishing Adolin's every attempt to get his father's attention once Evi is killed. On his side, Dalinar sees Adolin as perfection incarnated. He thinks of his son as the better man and is seriously deluded in thinking Adolin would inspire and lead the Highprinces effectively. He only finds out about Sadeas late in the book and isn't given much of a reaction. Adolin takes his first stance towards not doing what his father orders of him at the same moment. Is it solved? Is it over? I frankly do not see why Adolin refusing to be king, but accepting to be Highprince, a position he didn't want either, to have fixed his issues towards his father. Now he is the Highprince, will he weight his decision making with Dalinar's? Will Dalinar expect a leadership out of Adolin he isn't able to pull off? Dalinar states he is fine with Adolin murdering Sadeas, is he really fine? Hence, the Dalinar/Adolin relationship is a loose end to me, one I sincerely hope Brandon will attack within the next book.

3) Dalinar's actions at the Rift and Evi's death. Adolin doesn't know the truth and, based on his reaction when he speaks of the event to Kaladin/Shallan, this remains a sore spot. So while Brandon may still pull a Helaran and make meaningless, I personally believe it better fits Adolin's character to not be fine with it.

4) Adolin's Plate has been stolen, who really were Evi/Toh and who does this Plate belongs to. This whole very interesting arc was introduced early in OB, but then dropped. Was it dropped because it will be a topic for book 4? I hope so. I want to know what really happened and why Iri is using this Plate as bargaining money to blackmail Dalinar.

5) Moash running away, stealing Shards, killing Elhokar and Kaladin more or less having allowed those things to happen. This one will probably be a Red Herring though, I hope it will be mentioned for proper continuity, but I doubt it will be meaningful. 

6) Adolin never grieving... I thought his scene with Navani more or less pictured him as someone never taking the time to properly grieve. Seems to me it should be broached, somewhere, but it probably won't.

It sounds like the Adolin/ Dalinar topic could get toxic in book 4. I just hope they can sort this out ( over the course of a book or 2) without Adolin completely turning against his dad who he practically worshipped at one time. Though I do think Adolins worship of Dalinar is unhealthy, and he can learn to temper with maybe admiring his accomplishments without idolising him.

[Stormlightning she/her]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

My unresolved issues would be:

1) Adolin murdering Sadeas. Seriously, this wasn't even broached nor tackled in any way which feels satisfying. So while it is highly unlikely Brandon will write more on this specific arc, I definitely count it as a "loose end". 

2) Dalinar and Adolin's relationship. Adolin spent the entire book stating/thinking he isn't worthy of Dalinar. He admits feeling pressure to meet his father's impossible expectations and each time he attempt at comparing himself, he feels the lesser man. Late in the book, he speaks of his father as "a God" and of him being "unworthy of standing in his light". He also speaks of not deserving to wear Dalinar's colors. In the flashbacks, we get why he behaves this way: he loves his father, he worships him, but Dalinar spent a decade criticizing and diminishing Adolin's every attempt to get his father's attention once Evi is killed. On his side, Dalinar sees Adolin as perfection incarnated. He thinks of his son as the better man and is seriously deluded in thinking Adolin would inspire and lead the Highprinces effectively. He only finds out about Sadeas late in the book and isn't given much of a reaction. Adolin takes his first stance towards not doing what his father orders of him at the same moment. Is it solved? Is it over? I frankly do not see why Adolin refusing to be king, but accepting to be Highprince, a position he didn't want either, to have fixed his issues towards his father. Now he is the Highprince, will he weight his decision making with Dalinar's? Will Dalinar expect a leadership out of Adolin he isn't able to pull off? Dalinar states he is fine with Adolin murdering Sadeas, is he really fine? Hence, the Dalinar/Adolin relationship is a loose end to me, one I sincerely hope Brandon will attack within the next book.

3) Dalinar's actions at the Rift and Evi's death. Adolin doesn't know the truth and, based on his reaction when he speaks of the event to Kaladin/Shallan, this remains a sore spot. So while Brandon may still pull a Helaran and make meaningless, I personally believe it better fits Adolin's character to not be fine with it.

4) Adolin's Plate has been stolen, who really were Evi/Toh and who does this Plate belongs to. This whole very interesting arc was introduced early in OB, but then dropped. Was it dropped because it will be a topic for book 4? I hope so. I want to know what really happened and why Iri is using this Plate as bargaining money to blackmail Dalinar.

5) Moash running away, stealing Shards, killing Elhokar and Kaladin more or less having allowed those things to happen. This one will probably be a Red Herring though, I hope it will be mentioned for proper continuity, but I doubt it will be meaningful. 

6) Adolin never grieving... I thought his scene with Navani more or less pictured him as someone never taking the time to properly grieve. Seems to me it should be broached, somewhere, but it probably won't.

Much of this is about Adolin. A lot of people have been discussing that Adolin has fallen rather flat to this point, but I think the time will come when we really get to dive into his character (and where a lot of this will be addressed). He just hasn't had his time yet.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Palindrome said:

It sounds like the Adolin/ Dalinar topic could get toxic in book 4. I just hope they can sort this out ( over the course of a book or 2) without Adolin completely turning against his dad who he practically worshipped at one time. Though I do think Adolins worship of Dalinar is unhealthy, and he can learn to temper with maybe admiring his accomplishments without idolising him.

I don't think Adolin will turn against his dad, but I do think their relationship currently forms an unresolved end.

10 minutes ago, Stormlightning said:

Much of this is about Adolin. A lot of people have been discussing that Adolin has fallen rather flat to this point, but I think the time will come when we really get to dive into his character (and where a lot of this will be addressed). He just hasn't had his time yet.

Well, yes, much of it is about Adolin because he is the one character having the most unresolved ends: this is a direct consequences of him being written in a rather flat way within OB. Just because Brandon chose to write Adolin is a simplistic way does not mean all the lose ends around his character vanished: it merely means they are more present now than ever. Arguably, none of these will be resolved because they are about Adolin, but I find them to be "my most interesting lose ends". 

[Zizoz he/him]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:48 PM, Kered said:

I'm more worried about the 2 arm Hardazian jokes Lopen mentioned but never talked about. 

And if Adolin ever found his mother's chain. 

 

These are the questions that will eat at my soul and spirit web until Book 4. 

Lopen tells a two-armed Herdazian joke in chapter 35:

Quote

"Say, do you know how to get two armed Herdazians to do what you want?"
"If I did, we wouldn't be having this conversation."
"Well, you take away both of their spears, obviously."

Edited January 28, 2018 by Zizoz

[Kered he/him]

29 minutes ago, Zizoz said:

Lopen tells a two-armed Herdazian joke in chapter 35:

Praise be Zizoz. 

[IntentAwesome]

On 1/26/2018 at 10:31 AM, Isilel said:

 

But one loose end that really surprised me was that he never confessed his own part in the plot to murder Elhokar and that nobody wondered what happened to a shiny new Kholin shardbearer (Moash) whom Kal had bestowed the newly won shards on. I really thought that Kaladin coming clean about all of it would be an important moment of growth, both for him and for Elhokar (RIP).

Actually a short conversation between Dalinar and Kaladin in OB makes me think Kaladin did tell Dalinar about his involvement with the assassination plot and Moash. 

Quote

 

“The king needs to go for personal reasons. Will there be a problem between you?”

”I’ll do what is right regardless of my feelings, sir. And...I might be beyond those feelings anyway, now.”

 

Dalinar has no reason to think Kaladin has problems with Elhokar unless he knows about the whole Moash/Elhokar thing. 

[Kered he/him]

24 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Actually a short conversation between Dalinar and Kaladin in OB makes me think Kaladin did tell Dalinar about his involvement with the assassination plot and Moash. 

Dalinar has no reason to think Kaladin has problems with Elhokar unless he knows about the whole Moash/Elhokar thing. 

I think this is referring to Kaladin's beef with Elhokar throwing him in prison. Being, even minutely, involved in an assassination plot is kind of a big deal. If Kaladin did tell Dalinar about his involvement, I think it would have had more detailed screen time.  

[Isilel]

What also looks like a loose end to me is how calmly and easily everybody gave up Alethkar for lost, and that Kholins weren't blamed for taking most of the armies to the Shattered Plains and keeping them there for 6 years, which could be construed as the cause for the fall of the homeland. You'd think that as soon as the parshmen transformed and started to move towards Alethkar, everybody would have screamed blue murder and the recalcitrant highprinces, who remained at the camps, would have tried to do something about it. And then, when the spanreeds started to go silent, etc., why weren't there constant demands on the Elhokar/Dalinar to do something? Don't most of the people in Urithiru and on  the Shattered plains, beginning with the highprinces and highlords, have families back in Alethkar? Property? Even once it became clear that holding/recovering northern and central Alethkar was impractical, people being people, I'd still expect those who had interests there to do everything in their power to still try to bring it about (uselessly, of course). But it is far less clear that defending southern Alethkar would be similarly futile, yet it appears to have been given up for lost in the last Kaladin's chapter as well. Nobody is even trying to organize an orderly evacuation or to save resources and transport them to the Shattered Plains.

I do suspect that at least some of this will come into play in the next book, but it felt very contrived throughout OB that it was, for the most part, glossed over.

Corollary to this - I really love that Sanderson has families play such a big role in SA. It is only realistic and a very refreshing change from the usual orphan stereotypes. However, he needs to be consistent about it. Even though Bridge 4 was a group of very much down on their luck individuals, Kaladin, Rock and Lopen can't be the only members who had families that they'd have a good reason to  worry about when/if their homeland fell to the Fused. The same applies to the other soldiers, scribes, etc. Yes, some would have brought their families to the Shattered Plains, but most wouldn't have, as it was a long and somewhat dangerous trek, what with all the bandits in the Frostlands, etc., and due to the very real risk of them being stranded in the camps, far from everything they knew, without a source of income and without the help of extended family if their father/brother etc. died in the fighting. 

Also, with most of the Highprinces being middle-aged men who were forced to abandon their holdings for years, they'd have left their adult sons in charge. Much safer than some cousin who might look to usurp your line. And yes, most of them should have several children, " a heir and a spare" and a daughter or 2 to scribe sensitive stuff and to build alliances with, grandchildren, etc. Ruthar shouldn't have been the only one among them worrying about his son back home.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Isilel

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Two pages and nobody mentioned my number one loose end:

How did we get through a whole book of Dalinar flashbacks, and yet we don't know where Gallant came from?

[Humming]

6 minutes ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Two pages and nobody mentioned my number one loose end:

How did we get through a whole book of Dalinar flashbacks, and yet we don't know where Gallant came from?

Probably because he was not worthy of a Rhysadium until he is touched by Cultivation and starts to grow.

[Carla Bridge Four]

18 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Two pages and nobody mentioned my number one loose end:

How did we get through a whole book of Dalinar flashbacks, and yet we don't know where Gallant came from?

I don't think that's a loose end, I think we'll know much more about Rhysadiums later on. "Plate, blade and mount".

I say that because I'm dreaming about Kaladin on a Rhysadium... hehe

And about Kholinar, wasn't it originally just Kholin's capital city? Alethkar has been a kingdom for not really a lot of time. But surely Dalinar will try to take the city back, I bet.

[Varenus]

17 hours ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I say that because I'm dreaming about Kaladin on a Rhysadium... hehe

I was going to ask why he would need a mount when he can fly.....But I answered my own question. 

[Meghan1Q84]

On 1/26/2018 at 9:17 AM, Wandering Investor said:

 

 

On 1/25/2018 at 5:20 PM, Ailvara said:

It's a bit of a sidenote, but it bothers me just a little that Kaladin is still a captain. It sounds well, but doesn't make sense anymore. He's been commanding a battalion for a while and now that the darkeyes' glass ceiling is gone, I would imagine some adjustments in ranks would be logical. And more practically meaningful than giving him a piece of land that'll probably be falling to Odium's forces soon enough with the rest of Alethkar. 

While I agree with you I think Captain Kaladin has a nice ring to it. Just roles off the tongue. General Kaladin not so much. Maybe Colonel Kaladin? Radiant Kaladin sounds cool though but he still has some oaths to go before I think that title should be used officially. Anything but Brigadier Bridge Boy..

 

Lol BG Bridgeboy. Ok, because this is a long post, as an FYI you can probably skip everything and go straight to the Important Part below.  Everything before that is mostly background.   

Hi! I'm back from a rather long hiatus and pleased to be rejoining you.  I saw this post and having been an Air Force officer I wanted to offer some thoughts on why he is staying at captain at this point in the narrative. 

I agree with most of you. During extreme times of war, prejudices tend to  become less important in the wake of meritocracy. Aristocracy *hates* meritocracy even while it's members are forced to tolerate it in the interest of...you know,  not being slaughtered in their beds.  Someone who is probably important said that death is the great equalizer. I'd posit that the threat of death takes one of two extreme paths-- either it makes the gap between the upper classes and the lower classes unfathomably wide (think the English court abandoning London for rumors of plague while the general populace had to stay behind). Or it can create bridges to power for plebians that would not exist outside of chaos (consider the peasant born Minamoto Yorimoto, first shogun of Japan). I think most of us would agree that Roshar has followed the latter course. Certainly Alethcar has moved beyond threat of death to actual massive casualties--but it's still at the middle point where opportunities must be opened to the Third Estate in what was once a socially static world.  And while that is a silver lining for the masses, the trouble is that beyond the tipping point, with too much death, opportunities also vanish – – no need for an administrative position with no one to organize. But we're not there yet, most of you know all this already, and I'm getting off track.

 So it's a valid question.  Why doesn't Kaladin have a field commission to be a Lieutenant Colonel or above?

  The Important Stuff 

 I was an Air Force captain before combat injury and medical retirement as a Wounded Warrior. Captain is the highest rank among company grade officers. This is where you have the most  hands-on connections and leadership roles with your troops.  When you get promoted to Lt Colonel or even General, your focus is no longer on tactics, it is now on the operational or possibly strategic fields of war-- and that job is mostly strategizing in a tent (think Mat Cauthon).  Even today it is a very difficult transition for commanders to go from being company grade officers to field grade officers for this very reason. Sanderson gave us the perfect illustration of this conflict through the evolution of Dalinar's own military career. I suspect that Dalinar would like to let him stay in the position for as long as he can spare him.  Every decent officer I have ever met who held a command position as a captain, wishes that they hadn't had to be promoted out of it. You are a direct leader.  You take care of your troops and the buck stops with you.  Promotion after that point mostly entails desk work and delegation.  Are there other reasons why he isn't being promoted immediately?  Almost definitely... if there weren't Sanderson wouldn't be the complex author that we love. 

❤️

Edited February 27, 2018 by Meghan1Q84
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