Obnoxiousspren Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 My theory in a nutshell: The Sibling is a dead spren. One of the deadeyes. I think that the Bondsmith who the other Sibling was bonded to abandoned their oaths and it killed, or at least damaged, the Sibling. *Obviously everything that follows includes spoilers* So that's the basic idea, here is my reasoning. First, we know that there were only three Bondsmiths at a time because there were only three Bondsmith Spren. We have the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher (probably/maybe? It's the common theory) and then the Sibling. We know from the epigraph of chapter 67 that there was only one Bondsmith during the generation when the Recreance took place. We also know that the only order that did not abandon their oaths was the Order of the Skybreakers. So that means the Bondsmith would have to either be dead or would have abandoned their oath. As for more evidence, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are functional, but when Dalinar asks the Stormfather about the Sibling he refuses to talk about him saying humans have hurt him enough. He also says they are "slumbering" and "they are not with us". I had more evidence I believe, but I'll have to come back and add it later (this post has taken place over the course of several hours due to interruptions). Problems with my theory that are immediately evident. The epigraphs seem to imply that the Sibling has withdrawn from Urithiru and isn't present at the time of the Recreance. If they were bonded I don't know why they wouldn't be present. It is possible that the Sibling had only partially withdrawn or gone quiet while still being bonded to the Bondsmith. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant he/him Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Sounds reasonable. Do we have confirmation that no bond smiths ever held shards? I feel like I was already debunked on this, but Oathbringer sounds like a good name for a bondsmith blade. . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) IIRC, there was only one Bondsmith at the time of the Recreance (and it sounds like it was Melishi). Maybe the lack of a bondmate is why it was withdrawing? Edited January 11, 2018 by RShara 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obnoxiousspren Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, RShara said: IIRC, there was only one Bondsmith at the time of the Recreance (and it sounds like it was Melishi). Maybe the lack of a bondmate is why it was withdrawing? I think Melishi was the name of the Bondsmith, not the spren. That's the common theory I've heard anyways. Of course, it could be that the Sibling's name is Melishi since we don't really know who Melishi is. Edited January 11, 2018 by Obnoxiousspren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Er yeah. I didn't mean to imply that Melishi was anyone other than the Bondsmith. It's very clear he is a Bondsmith, and a human. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obnoxiousspren Posted January 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, RShara said: Er yeah. I didn't mean to imply that Melishi was anyone other than the Bondsmith. It's very clear he is a Bondsmith, and a human. Oh yeah yeah! Sorry, I read that wrong (I'm tired). So are you saying that maybe the Sibling was withdrawing because he didn't have a human to bond with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said: Oh yeah yeah! Sorry, I read that wrong (I'm tired). So are you saying that maybe the Sibling was withdrawing because he didn't have a human to bond with? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. We don't know who Melishi was bonded with, though, so it could be that the Sibling was unbonded and was fading/losing its sapience without the bond. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 I like this idea a lot. We don't know what happened to Melishi, but it sounds reasonable that he abandoned his oaths like the other Radiants, and killed the Sibling. 4 hours ago, RShara said: IIRC What does this mean? Always wondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant he/him Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 If I Remember Correctly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: I like this idea a lot. We don't know what happened to Melishi, but it sounds reasonable that he abandoned his oaths like the other Radiants, and killed the Sibling. What does this mean? Always wondered. The Sibling's Slumbering seems to predate the Recreance, we don't even know if Melishi was bond to the Sibling rather than be bonded with the Stormfather or Nightwatcher (assuming she is the second Bondsmith's spren)...Because if like it seems likely the Sibling began to sluber far before the Recreance...Melishi will probably be unable to bond with him or performe the task he has to about BAM Edited January 11, 2018 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazenella he/him Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 10 hours ago, Solant said: Sounds reasonable. Do we have confirmation that no bond smiths ever held shards? I feel like I was already debunked on this, but Oathbringer sounds like a good name for a bondsmith blade. . . Bondsmiths don't get shardblades Quote Questioner And there's one last question if I may: I'm really into swords and such. I couldn't help but notice king Elhokar's Blade. It's just... All the others are ornamented, and they may have some glyphs, but it is the only one where it is explicitly it is told that there are ten fundamental glyphs on it which are the glyphs of the orders. I read some of the chapters from Dalinar from Unfettered II, and I know how he got it for Elhokar. Is there also some more backstory to this Blade? Brandon Sanderson There's a backstory to every Blade and every one of them is special, that's the problem. But I will be exploring the origins of some of the Blades. Eventually. Not a ton, but a little bit. Questioner As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith? Brandon Sanderson Bondsmith's didn't have Blades. Questioner All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather... Brandon Sanderson No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. Questioner But maybe there is at least something to it. Brandon Sanderson But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 Yeah it's pretty obvious that the Sibling was withdrawing before the Recreance, which is why I think it wasn't bonded at the time. And that maybe the lack of a bond is what was causing it to withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted January 11, 2018 Report Share Posted January 11, 2018 The Sibling had/was withdrawing by the time of the Tower's abandoning, which appears to have taken place before the Recreance. One of the quotes from the gemstones seems to indicate there was a specific reason unknown to most of the KR's on why the Sibling was withdrawing. So it seems something external to the KR's caused the withdraw to happen, although perhaps there was trouble with the Bondsmith at the time that weaken/damaged the Sibling? Someone does raise a good point, it was clearly stated that 9 out of the 10 orders betrayed their oaths. The skybreakers were the one, which means bondsmiths are one of the nine. So what happened to the bondsmiths? was one of the three killed here, or was there simply no bondsmith at the time?(I lean to the second option). Alternatively, the Recrance and the abandoning of the tower occurred at the same time and the bondsmith was the first to decide to betray their oaths, killing the siblings, causing the abandoning of the tower, leading to the lowering of morale of the rest of the orders, who eventually followed suit. Need more books >.< 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recneps he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 The Bondsmiths as an Order could've betrayed the Oaths.. But did the Knight Bondsmith betray them? It could be that (s)he had some Squires Bondsmith and they, but not the Knight Bondsmith, betrayed the Oaths and slew the Knight Bondsmith.. I find it highly unlikely that a Greaterspren could be turned into a Deadeyes like that, but I suppose they could be similar to an intermediate between Intact and Deadeyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, recneps said: The Bondsmiths as an Order could've betrayed the Oaths.. But did the Knight Bondsmith betray them? It could be that (s)he had some Squires Bondsmith and they, but not the Knight Bondsmith, betrayed the Oaths and slew the Knight Bondsmith.. I find it highly unlikely that a Greaterspren could be turned into a Deadeyes like that, but I suppose they could be similar to an intermediate between Intact and Deadeyes. We don't know if Bondsmiths had squires, as we've been told some orders had none. With Melishi being the only Bondsmith at the time of the Recreance, and the gem archive saying that the Sibling was already withdrawing at the time, I find it unlikely that the Sibling was bonded during the Recreance itself. As to what the Stormfather could mean by the sibling having been wounded already... I have no clue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 hours ago, recneps said: The Bondsmiths as an Order could've betrayed the Oaths.. But did the Knight Bondsmith betray them? It could be that (s)he had some Squires Bondsmith and they, but not the Knight Bondsmith, betrayed the Oaths and slew the Knight Bondsmith.. I find it highly unlikely that a Greaterspren could be turned into a Deadeyes like that, but I suppose they could be similar to an intermediate between Intact and Deadeyes. Pattern implies in WoR that the Stormfather was wounded by the Recreance. However, he was powerful enough to survive the effects, unlike most other spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palindrome Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/11/2018 at 10:06 AM, Blazenella said: Bondsmiths don't get shardblades Perhaps if that blade has all ten orders it is not a bondsmith. It is Tanavast blade. He created all ten orders anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isilel Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said: Pattern implies in WoR that the Stormfather was wounded by the Recreance. However, he was powerful enough to survive the effects, unlike most other spren. But wouldn't the Recreance have happened during the time when Honor was frantically re-shaping the Stormfather into his cognitive shadow? IMHO, the Stormfather couldn't have been bonded during that process. And wouldn't the betrayal and death of his "firstborn" honorspren have been wound enough? The thing with Melishi, the imprisonment of Bo-Ado-Mishram and withdrawal of the Sibling is that we don't know the chronology of all these events. I still think that the Sibling could have been Melishi's spren, who was badly hurt in the process/ as a result of BAM's imprisonment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, Isilel said: But wouldn't the Recreance have happened during the time when Honor was frantically re-shaping the Stormfather into his cognitive shadow? IMHO, the Stormfather couldn't have been bonded during that process. And wouldn't the betrayal and death of his "firstborn" honorspren have been wound enough? Honor was still alive for the Recreance as he has a memory of it in the vision we see through Dalinar. He didn't "reshape" the Stormfather in that way. He would have died and produced a Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast like anyone who had held enough investiture. After his death, his Cognitive Shadow somehow merged with the Stormfather. We don't know how this was accomplished, but taking the Oathgate spren into account, it could have simply been something he commanded the Stormfather to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song she/her Posted February 3, 2018 Report Share Posted February 3, 2018 Is it possible that one of the unmade caused the sibling to slumber? We know that the knights were researching them, is it possible they inadvertantly let them effect the towers spren? Love to hear other suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obnoxiousspren Posted February 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 I have an update! I just got my book signed by Brandon today at the BYU signing. My question was specifically: "Was there a Bondsmith at the time of the Recreance and did they abandon their oaths?" He wrote in my book: "Yes....RAFO." He said this is a RAFO because it is a major plot point of Book 4, he also confirmed for me that Melishi is the Bondsmith (not the spren). So, take that how you will, let it be fuel for the fire. I'll get that in the Arcanum database soon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Just now, Obnoxiousspren said: I have an update! I just got my book signed by Brandon today at the BYU signing. My question was specifically: "Was there a Bondsmith at the time of the Recreance and did they abandon their oaths?" He wrote in my book: "Yes....RAFO." He said this is a RAFO because it is a major plot point of Book 4, he also confirmed for me that Melishi is the Bondsmith (not the spren). So, take that how you will, let it be fuel for the fire. I'll get that in the Arcanum database soon Can you take a picture of the answer, so we can put it in Arcanum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obnoxiousspren Posted February 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Just now, RShara said: Can you take a picture of the answer, so we can put it in Arcanum? Yup, I will try to quickly. I'm not in the most convenient place to do it at the moment but it will happen soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted February 23, 2018 Report Share Posted February 23, 2018 Cool. Also I was about to edit my post because I read too fast and didn't see you were already intending to. Sorry, got too excited! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cognitive Shadow he/him Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 9:11 AM, Palindrome said: Perhaps if that blade has all ten orders it is not a bondsmith. It is Tanavast blade. He created all ten orders anyway. Ishar founded the orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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