[OB] Why Didn't The Skybreakers Go After Szeth Earlier

[Subvisual Haze]

5 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The part I highlighted seems a bit harsh. The way I see it organizations often start off fresh and hopeful, and with time they become stiff, arrogant, unyielding, and slightly corrupted, if for no other reason than that procedure becomes firmly entrenched and open mindedness is shot down. What this means for the skybreakers is that they have likely been around for 6000 years, become harder and more corrupted with the years. This is seen in Roshar in the kingdoms, all with their problems, the older the kingdom the more stupid traditions.

A good house can only be build on good foundations, and the Skybreaker house has been built on a base of "gently used" Walmart clearance rack particle board and the kind of glue that you let kindergartners use because it's less toxic if they eat it.

There's no need to get philosophical on the corrupting and ossifying nature of institutions here.  This is an order that is built entirely around blind obedience to authority and rules.  Even a child should be able to predict some potential problems with structuring your institution in that way.  It is quite literally a cult at this point.  Huge numbers of their members are incapable of resisting Nale at this point.  They've sworn oaths to follow him, if they break their oath they will lose their powers and no longer be Skybreakers.  It also can't be some happy coincidence that nobody except Nale has ascended to the 5th ideal.

The fact they went from blatantly ignoring the spirit of the law and selectively enforcing extreme justice to prevent the return of the Singers (and doing nothing at all to protest the mass enslavement of the Parshmen) to immediately en masse agreeing to swearing allegiance to the Singers should tell you everything you need to know about their internal codes of right and wrong and independent decision making capabilities.  They don't have any, they just do what Nale tells them to do.  Nale has selected their recruits with this in mind for thousands of years now, and probably eliminated anyone who doesn't quickly fall in line.

At their core, the different Radiant orders seem to tackle questions of personal ethics and philosophy.  I don't think it's possible to state with authority which ethical basis is the best for everyone, but many of the Radiant orders seem to be based around good and compassionate goals: Windrunners protect the vulnerable, Bondsmiths are peacemakers, Edgedancers listen to and advocate for the downtrodden.  I think history has repeatedly demonstrated in graphic detail that "I was just following orders" is an absolutely garbage basis for personal ethics though.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

8 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

At their core, the different Radiant orders seem to tackle questions of personal ethics and philosophy.  I don't think it's possible to state with authority which ethical basis is the best for everyone, but many of the Radiant orders seem to be based around good and compassionate goals: Windrunners protect the vulnerable, Bondsmiths are peacemakers, Edgedancers listen to and advocate for the downtrodden.  I think history has repeatedly demonstrated in graphic detail that "I was just following orders" is an absolutely garbage basis for personal ethics though.

Nevertheless, having an order which has a focus on upholding the law doesn't seem wrong. What would our world be like without laws, judges, juries, policemen? The problem of the Skybreakers is they are currently driving their car in a dark path which is not exactly the law, as it is "applying the law when and where they feel like it". I also bet any order that had not been disbanded and had followed their insane herald for 4500 years would be in bad shape regardless of which order you pick.

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Windrunners protect the vulnerable, Bondsmiths are peacemakers, Edgedancers listen to and advocate for the downtrodden. 

I think this is overly optimistic. 

I think any order can be twisted to something it shouldn't be, but of the three you mentioned, Bondsmith. 

Gavilar was on the road to bonding the Stormfather, and he was all about uniting through conquest. He wasn't a peacemaker. The Sons of Honor were his doing. Returning a desolation to the detriment of the world in order to more strongly bind together people because of an external threat. 

The Bondsmiths are about leadership, and it doesn't have to be good leadership. 

[Subvisual Haze]

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Nevertheless, having an order which has a focus on upholding the law doesn't seem wrong. What would our world be like without laws, judges, juries, policemen? The problem of the Skybreakers is they are currently driving their car in a dark path which is not exactly the law, as it is "applying the law when and where they feel like it". I also bet any order that had not been disbanded and had followed their insane herald for 4500 years would be in bad shape regardless of which order you pick.

But that's my core point, none of the other orders would be nearly as willing to "just follow orders" as the Skybreakers have been.  By their very nature the Skybreakers are exceptionally authoritarian and susceptible to corrupt leadership because of their devotion to existing rules and power structures.  That's kind of their thing.  And it's a bad thing.  It was a less bad thing back when a benevolent deity was at the head of their power structure, but it's fairly untenable in the modern era.

I think a certain other lawman from a different planet said it well:

Quote

"The definition of a lawman, Uncle, is easy," Wax said... "He's the man who takes the bullet so nobody else has to."

Even though Wax is a lawman, on Roshar he would be more akin to a Windrunner (or maybe Stoneward?) than a Skybreaker.  He rightly sees the law and its enforcement as a mechanism to protect others.  He doesn't worship the law itself or regard it as something sacred, rather it is a means to an end (protecting others).

[Dlyol]

I tend to think that the impressions we have got of the Windrunners and Skybreakers worldview is overly positive and negative respectively. To my mind the essential philosophical difference between these two order is the extent to which they trust their own instincts to determine what is moral. Windrunners believe that they can determine what is the right thing to with essentially exclusive reference to their own personal morality, while Skybreakers do not believe that they are capable of determining this so rely on external moral codes, primarily the law. Both of these approaches can be good and can be bad and in real life we rely on a mixture - sometimes hard and fast rules won't be situation appropriate and sometimes because of imperfect information if we ignore rules to follow whats a our own view of whats appropriate we end up doing bad things. The reason we have such a one sided view of this is because of the characters we have viewpoints for and because the current Skybreakers are led by an insane person but which of these approaches is actually better really depends on broader philosophical questions about human nature itself.

[Aleksiel]

12 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

But that's my core point, none of the other orders would be nearly as willing to "just follow orders" as the Skybreakers have been.  By their very nature the Skybreakers are exceptionally authoritarian and susceptible to corrupt leadership because of their devotion to existing rules and power structures.  That's kind of their thing.  And it's a bad thing.  It was a less bad thing back when a benevolent deity was at the head of their power structure, but it's fairly untenable in the modern era.

That's an oversimplification. Following the law above all else is merely the first specific Ideal they have. It's not a bad starting point, most pass it rather quickly from what little we know. SB are only susceptible to corrupt leadership if they chose a bad leader for their Dedication Ideal, which actually doesn't even need to be a person. One could dedicate themselves to the teaching of Nohadon or basically anything else they judge as greater truth and not what somebody else has decides is the truth. SB also chose their own quests, so how is that authoritarian?

You can call it bad, but just consider how Kal swore to defend even those he hate so long as it is right - and his guide as to what is right is basically himself. Every WR deciding individually what right is sounds like a recipe for civil war. You can argue people have done horrible things through history under the excuse of 'just following orders', but they've typically done so under the authority of someone certain of their own righteousness and moral superiority, which has some WR ring to it. Many wars have been lead under the pretext of 'defending'. Besides, following an authority figure doesn't seem to be mandatory for SB anyway, the problem seems to be that many were stupid enough to choose Nale as their Dedication despite his expressed concerns, but expecting differently might be akin to expecting a monotheist who met an archangel to not consider said archangel as reliable guide.

[Nymeros]

It's made pretty clear that Nale:

1 Really likes Szeth

2 Doesn't care about or have any desire to spend his time hunting random criminals

[Fulminato he/him]

On 6/1/2018 at 8:34 PM, Calderis said:

I think this is overly optimistic. 

I think any order can be twisted to something it shouldn't be, but of the three you mentioned, Bondsmith. 

Gavilar was on the road to bonding the Stormfather, and he was all about uniting through conquest. He wasn't a peacemaker. The Sons of Honor were his doing. Returning a desolation to the detriment of the world in order to more strongly bind together people because of an external threat. 

The Bondsmiths are about leadership, and it doesn't have to be good leadership. 

become radiant is a road of personal progression. (for most at least)

if the bondsmith third oath is about "take responsability of past action" i suppose every bondsmith had his/her share of "skeleton in the closet"

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

become radiant is a road of personal progression. (for most at least)

if the bondsmith third oath is about "take responsability of past action" i suppose every bondsmith had his/her share of "skeleton in the closet"

Again though, this is subject to interpretation. 

If Gavilar hadn't died, and had bonded the Stormfather, and worked to bring about a desolation, and believed he was right to do so, he could own up to it, and "take responsibility" without changing his actions whatsoever. 

It is a path of progression. It doesn't have to be progression morally. 

[Fulminato he/him]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Again though, this is subject to interpretation. 

If Gavilar hadn't died, and had bonded the Stormfather, and worked to bring about a desolation, and believed he was right to do so, he could own up to it, and "take responsibility" without changing his actions whatsoever. 

It is a path of progression. It doesn't have to be progression morally. 

the oath is about perception, (kaldin-syl dialogue to the end) if you feel to follow your moral code, and your spren agree, there is no problem.

gavilar was a warlord cutting his path to kingship through "knives in the back and soldiers on the field" (WoR), saedas usualy procedure for a conquered city was rather harsh, but dalinar and the rift... well was totaly on another scale.

ishar  placed the oath to bind and shape the progression of the KR, oath after oath his/her power increase, perhaps access to both surge, blade, plate, etc... the skybraker the recruitment i think this can be a good standard, even for order without squire. [the spren wach someone, they talk with the alredy bonded spren, they refer the people to the full knight and it start thier apprenticeship]

if any progressive oath don't mark some advancement for the radiant it defile the oath system itself.

[SpliceosomeofAdolnasium he/him]

If the oathpact is not completely abandoned how come Nale is able to ignore his responsibility to defend roshar against odium even if the parshendi are the dawnsingers shouldn't the ideal given to him by god (honor) be the ultimate form of law superseding original rights of property?  

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Odium Reigns said:

If the oathpact is not completely abandoned how come Nale is able to ignore his responsibility to defend roshar against odium even if the parshendi are the dawnsingers shouldn't the ideal given to him by god (honor) be the ultimate form of law superseding original rights of property?  

Because Nale and the others are bugnuts.

[SpliceosomeofAdolnasium he/him]

that may be true but it seems that they are attached to the oathpact on another level that even though they decided not to follow it they still are a part of it I mean jezrien even said as he was dying that it was different he expected that even though he is crazy and think  he abandoned the oathpact that he would return as a cognitive shadow I guess what Im asking is at what level does the oathpact exist (spiritual cognitive or physical) and at what level are the consciously a part of it 

[Kered he/him]

52 minutes ago, RShara said:

Because Nale and the others are bugnuts.

Upvote for being the first person I've seen ever use the term "bugnuts" in a sentence. 

35 minutes ago, Odium Reigns said:

that may be true but it seems that they are attached to the oathpact on another level that even though they decided not to follow it they still are a part of it I mean jezrien even said as he was dying that it was different he expected that even though he is crazy and think  he abandoned the oathpact that he would return as a cognitive shadow I guess what Im asking is at what level does the oathpact exist (spiritual cognitive or physical) and at what level are the consciously a part of it 

We probably won't have a definitive answer the current state of the Oathpact and it's mechanics for another couple of books. But I think it's safe to bet that the "power" of the Oathpact, past and present, resides mostly in the Spiritual. The Oathpact connects the Heralds to an oath and a duty. In the Spiritual Realm all things are connected and one. Also we know that the majority of Shards power also resides in the SR. Honor used his own power to craft the Oathpact and to give the Heralds their power.

It's also safe to say that Heralds are currently pretty conscious of what's going on with the Oathpact. A few of them do at least, anyway. By way of Ishar and the coming of the desolation, Nale now know's that he's loosing it. Same can be said for Ash after what we saw in her POV's. The Herald talking with Nale in the prologue of WoK also questions if he himself is getting worse. If the Heralds are lucid enough, which I think they are, they probably have made the connection that their progressing insanity was triggered by what they did with the Oathpact. Or something along those lines. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Kered

[Stormrunner1730]

On 1/7/2018 at 8:56 AM, Dlyol said:

I tend to think that the impressions we have got of the Windrunners and Skybreakers worldview is overly positive and negative respectively. To my mind the essential philosophical difference between these two order is the extent to which they trust their own instincts to determine what is moral. Windrunners believe that they can determine what is the right thing to with essentially exclusive reference to their own personal morality, while Skybreakers do not believe that they are capable of determining this so rely on external moral codes, primarily the law. Both of these approaches can be good and can be bad and in real life we rely on a mixture - sometimes hard and fast rules won't be situation appropriate and sometimes because of imperfect information if we ignore rules to follow whats a our own view of whats appropriate we end up doing bad things. The reason we have such a one sided view of this is because of the characters we have viewpoints for and because the current Skybreakers are led by an insane person but which of these approaches is actually better really depends on broader philosophical questions about human nature itself.

I totally agree with all of this.  Moash is essentially a Windrunner who chose the opposite path as Kaladin/Bridge Four (albeit without a spren, but philosophically he's Kaladin's foil).  The reason we have a generally negatively skewed view of the Skybreakers is because the only context we've seen them in is their current state, where they've been following Nale's every word to "prevent a Desolation" (well, now to help the natives of Roshar, but either way...).  Szeth is our example of what a more discerning Skybreaker can be.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Not sure if this forum supports nested quotes, so I pulled this. Hopefully I didn't misquote anyone:

On 1/5/2018 at 9:14 PM, Lord Mistborn Skybreaker said:

They are not the worst order, they are the best order, they did not betray mankind and Just because you disagree with Nalan (I do to) doesn’t mean that the Skybreakers are bad, sure they may be siding with the Voidbringers, but you must understand that the parshmen ARE the rightful owners of the world. Also I’m sure that there are many Skybreakers who didn’t swear themselves to Nale. Nale himself mentioned that MOST follow the law of the land they are in, however some have chosen to follow him.

On 1/6/2018 at 8:31 AM, Aleksiel said:

They did in OB when apparently all but Szeth decided to follow Nale's insane move to join Odium despite technically already being the only Order who knew the Recreanse secret and brushed it off aside anyway. It made very little sense even with Nale's madness. He should have already known. The SB should have already known or at least be confident enough to remain at humanities side like their predecessors did.

What the Skybreakers did not do is betray the oaths to their spren, so among the orders their nahel bonds are still intact to spren that did not die. (Side point: if I were a highspren I'd object to the "destination before journey" way they approached avoiding a desolation, but anyway). 

That's a separate question as to whether they betrayed mankind. Which Aleksiel did a good job of pointing out why. More than just the secret of the Recreance, these folks and their leader especially must have been sitting on huge amounts of valid information (for instance, they at least must know the natures of Honor, Cultivation, Odium). The spren they talk to would have been originals, alive through it all. And they just buried all this, leaving mankind to sit in ignorance and live lies (like, for instance, the Vorin religion, loosely based on truths but warped over eons). And more than anything else, mankind needs good information to survive. Imagine if they were prepared for this instead of just infighting.