[OB] Where is Odium's army?

[Leuthie]

Dalinar picking up Odium after fully becoming Honor.  Together creating the Vengence Shard.  I'm almost certain that will be the back 5

[Kaleid]

12 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Dalinar picking up Odium after fully becoming Honor.  Together creating the Vengence Shard.  I'm almost certain that will be the back 5

 

Nice. I like this especially much because "Vengeance" is not only fitting, it's a kickass name.

[thejopen27]

27 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Do you mean when they became Cognitive Shadows? When they became the Heralds? (Assuming the two aren't one and the same.) When they were born?

Were they born on Ashyn? Were they born in Shinovar before the first human/Singer war? During? After? How long after? Were they the humans around when the Fused first started coming and the Singers first switched allegiance to Odium?

29 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Kings and queens mostly, it seems.

Jeszrien was obviously a king, Ash was apparently his daughter. Taln appears to have been a common soldier. The rest I would guess were great heroes, scholars, healers of humanity at whatever time they came from. 

31 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Probably quite a bit. Ash says "Oh, God. Oh, Adonalsium." or something like that, which I feel either implies a lot of Cosmere awareness, ancientness or both.

The humans of their era may have just worshiped Adonalsium without knowing of the split. It may just be an old curse that Ash still uses. She likely knows of the split by now. Nale doesn't mention Odium in his plans to Szeth. That seems like a pretty big oversight.

 

39 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Indeed.

Quite

[Stormrunner1730]

 

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Dalinar picking up Odium after fully becoming Honor.  Together creating the Vengence Shard.  I'm almost certain that will be the back 5

This would be super interesting.  I kind of think that Rayse will be dead by the end of book 5 too.  There's a WOB from somewhere of him slyly saying that Odium's Shardholder might not be alive at the end of book 5.  Dalinar as "Vengeance"/ the villain/antagonist of the back 5 would be a really interesting twist.

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, Messremb said:

I'm personally a fan of the Moash theory. I think Moash as the big bag is a good counter point to Kaladin as the Hero.

Sorry, but no. Moash isn't nearly threatening or knowledgeable enough - he is just a wannabe. Frankly, he would make a fairly poor Odium's champion, because he is too new at it - there is no way for Kaladin or Szeth to seem like an underdog in a fight with him. Him becoming Odium the Shard would be a huge downgrade from Rayse. 

And there are far more suitable people around - Ishar, Nale, Thaidakar (who, I think is:  Cosmere spoiler:

Spoiler

Kelsier

etc. Heck, Mraize has more menace and cosmere knowledge in his little finger than Moash in his whole being and for all we know the Ghostbloods may be hoping to take over a Shard.

Re: Odium's armies - didn't all the western nations join him? Which is a bity fishy, since they are all areas where Cultivation is worshipped and may be part of her gambit, but still. Ex-parshmen will be trained, all the Fused will arrive from Braize, Nale and the Skybreakers joining him will be huge moral blow to the anti-Odium alliance and undermine everybody's fragile trust in the Radiants, not to mention the effect on various Herald-worshipping religions, trade and agriculture have been disrupted everywhere and famines should follow, Mr T., who controls the most powerful and fertile country is a traitor, etc., etc.

Frankly, it is difficult to see how Our Heroes will manage to hold out for the one year time-skip until the next book.

Thaylen City battle was only so easy because Odium thought that it would be a pure formality and made a performance of it.

 

[Kaleid]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Frankly, it is difficult to see how Our Heroes will manage to hold out for the one year time-skip until the next book.

 

I think it's telling that most of the threats you mention don't actually seem to be directly under Odium's control at all. Even the Parshmen seem to rather want to coexist.

[YKDG22]

To me, it seems like Odium is way overpowered so far.

The Unmade have been active between desolations influencing the history of Roshar, whereas the Heralds have been fools doing things that undermine mankind's chances of fighting Odium.

The Fused have thousands of years of experience/knowledge fighting in desolations, whereas all of the previous Radiant spren are incoherent deadeyes.

The Fused can only be temporarily killed.

There seems to be an unlimited supply of voidlight versus limited amounts of stormlight.

Taravangian is constantly undermining the chances of mankind and is commited to being a traitor.

Some of the nations of Roshar are just siding with Odium.

Odium now can kill the Heralds, negating the advantage of the ability to capture unmade.

Odium has control of the Cognitive realm or at least the shardpools.

The everstorm can move faster than the stormfather.

The Unmade corrupted Urithiru and the KR don't know how to properly use it.

[Inquisitor #5]

12 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

 

I think it's telling that most of the threats you mention don't actually seem to be directly under Odium's control at all. Even the Parshmen seem to rather want to coexist.

Odium's not been trying before this point, he pursued a victory through deceit rather than force of arms.

And even then the Singers are mostly under control, they're not disobeying the Fused en masse from what we've seen.

However, now that his plan's been foiled he's probably going to be bringing out his full military might. Also on this point, an army can't just exist, it needs infrastructure. An army needs supplies and rather than just committing ill-/untrained soldiers to a battle where they might choose to run at the sight of slaughter he has them building up a support system first.

And even when he's not been trying he's:

• Caused economic damage/turmoil to his enemies with the removal of the free Parshman labour, which should lead to internal dissent and unrest.
• Cut the Alethi army/armies off from the vast majority of their economic base and their supply of manpower.
• Subverted an entire Alethi army to his side.
• Deprived the human alliance of the best hope of a fleet they had.
• Caused untold economic and infrastructural damage through the Everstorm.
• Caused the loss of much of the Alethi army through the Everstorm.

There might be more that I can't presently think of and in any case, the bulk of his army is presumably here, the Singers. Just because they might want to coexist now doesn't mean they'll want to coexist once they've been through Voidbringer bootcamp. The army is there, it's just that it consists of raw recruits, basically.

Also, Odium has organised a search for Radiant-spren, presumably as a means to limit the number of new Radiants and he's gotten the king of Jah Keved (kinda) on his side.

And there are still things like Thunderclasts, the inkmonsters, the imitations made by that Unmade and presumably other voidish nastyness that he'll bring forth now that the sneaky plan failed.

[Messremb]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Sorry, but no. Moash isn't nearly threatening or knowledgeable enough - he is just a wannabe. Frankly, he would make a fairly poor Odium's champion, because he is too new at it - there is no way for Kaladin or Szeth to seem like an underdog in a fight with him. Him becoming Odium the Shard would be a huge downgrade from Rayse. 

And there are far more suitable people around - Ishar, Nale, Thaidakar (who, I think is:  Cosmere spoiler:

We will have to disagree here. IMHO Moash is the single greatest threat to Roshar. Moash is the Evil version of Kaladin. He and Kaladin have very similar back stories. Both were high dawn darkeyes, who were wronged by petty lighteyes leading to the deaths of loved ones. Both joined the army with dreams of fighting on the shattered planes to win a shard, only to end up on bridge crews through the betrayal of light eyes. Both are naturally skilled fighters who learned the spear quickly, as well as being dedicated to working hard to perfect their skills. Both are natural leaders, who lead by example. And Both hated lighteyes. What is important here though, is where they differ. Kaladin holds himself accountable, and that lets him channel his hate into motivation, while Moash blames others, letting it stoke the flames of his hate.

At the end of OB Moash has decided that all man kind should be overthrown because of his hatred toward them. He has become a leader among the Parsh, and now holds an honor blade. He is also the only person we know who has permanently killed a Herald, and for no reason other than Odium asked him to do it. Who knows what other powers Odium will grant him before the next book.

If Moash isn't at least the enemy Champion I will be shocked.

Also, on the note of Ishar, Nale, and Thadikar

Ishar is a possabilty but I doubt it, he is more crazy than Hateful

Nale, sorry but no way this happens. he doesn't seem to have any emotions at all. he is the embodiment of justice.

Thadikar, we have almost no information on who he is, I think your idea is interesting, and possible, but with no serious evidence. If the new odium is someone not even introduced until book 4 or 5 I think that would feel rushed, and not at all like the well thought out and foreshadowed stories from Sanderson.

Personally I would rather see Dalinar than any of those.

[Kaleid]

1 hour ago, Messremb said:

Moash

You describe very well how Moash could be an anti-Kaladin... But an anti-everyone? He just lacks the emotional oomph to make it anything other than anticlimatic. Whilst it's reasonable to expect him to become Kal's nemesis, he's not invested* enough to become the enemy of... Well, everything. Not yet anyway.

 

I'm starting to think that we're missing the forest for the trees. Odium can take a back seat for now, there are many antagonists for the Radiants to vanquish for now - from the whole western hemisphere, to a whole branch of Radiants including the herald, the fused, the parsh, the ghostbloods, mad heralds, the unmade, and even amongst themselves with Taravangian and even some Radiants/Spren with dubious alignments (voidspren on the good side? Ashspren working at cross-purposes?) and even potentially cultivation - not to mention whatever is going on in the cognitive and even spiritual realms.

Odium almost takes an after thought to all that... Which is scary cos who knows what he'll be planning in the background whilst working to destabilise in the foreground.

 

 

*geddit? Invested?... I'll show myself out

[Messremb]

3 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

You describe very well how Moash could be an anti-Kaladin... But an anti-everyone? He just lacks the emotional oomph to make it anything other than anticlimatic. Whilst it's reasonable to expect him to become Kal's nemesis, he's not invested* enough to become the enemy of... Well, everything. Not yet anyway.

 

I'm starting to think that we're missing the forest for the trees. Odium can take a back seat for now, there are many antagonists for the Radiants to vanquish for now - from the whole western hemisphere, to a whole branch of Radiants including the herald, the fused, the parsh, the ghostbloods, mad heralds, the unmade, and even amongst themselves with Taravangian and even some Radiants/Spren with dubious alignments (voidspren on the good side? Ashspren working at cross-purposes?) and even potentially cultivation - not to mention whatever is going on in the cognitive and even spiritual realms.

Odium almost takes an after thought to all that... Which is scary cos who knows what he'll be planning in the background whilst working to destabilise in the foreground.

 

 

*geddit? Invested?... I'll show myself out

Well then, let me see if i can make an argument for that.

First I think we need to clarify that Odium is not about being the enemy of everything. in fact, his destruction of sentient life seems to be very limited, the only destruction we know he directly has caused is the deaths of 3 other Shard holders. Odiums intent is Hatred, but not just that, it also seems to be Passion, or in my mind, the negative emotions that usually cause hate. things like Envy, Anger, and Pain. Odium wants sentient beings around who experience these things, so he can take the emotions from them. I personally don't think he is out to destroy Roshar, I think he wants to divide the sentient being on Roshar to encourage them to feel hatred for each other.

Moash is very in line with the emotions that Odium is looking for, but he is worse for the fact that he has given up on Humanity, he wants to overthrow them so that another species can have a chance. I think we will see his hatred for humanity grow in the next 2 books, to the point where he wants to exterminate all humanity, and maybe even all life. He feels Let down, Betrayed and hurt by all Humanity. And he is envious of people like Kaladin, who are the few who redeem Humanity in his eyes. but now he has betrayed the only person he knew who he thought was a good person, and has given himself fully to Odium to deal with his hatred of himself. I think Hatred is becoming the theme for Moash, and I don't think that is a coincidence.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

To me, it seems like Odium is way overpowered so far.

The Unmade have been active between desolations influencing the history of Roshar, whereas the Heralds have been fools doing things that undermine mankind's chances of fighting Odium.

The Fused have thousands of years of experience/knowledge fighting in desolations, whereas all of the previous Radiant spren are incoherent deadeyes.

The Fused can only be temporarily killed.

There seems to be an unlimited supply of voidlight versus limited amounts of stormlight.

Taravangian is constantly undermining the chances of mankind and is commited to being a traitor.

Some of the nations of Roshar are just siding with Odium.

Odium now can kill the Heralds, negating the advantage of the ability to capture unmade.

Odium has control of the Cognitive realm or at least the shardpools.

The everstorm can move faster than the stormfather.

The Unmade corrupted Urithiru and the KR don't know how to properly use it.

Four words. Nightblood for the win!

In all seriousness I suspect the war may be a back and forth between the two sides. OB was likely the biggest wave forth from Odium. The other side was unprepared, had zero idea what to expect, unorganized and with no knowledge from the past.

Half of the Fused are nutjobs. Not to say they are not dangerous though.

Nightblood is a permanent solution to Fused. And possibly whatever weapon was used to kill Jezrien.

T tried his all to undermine humanity and even without trying the heroes kept his schemes in check, After been aware that sweet, doddering T is not so sweet and doddering I'd expect them to keep an eye on him.

The Heralds so far have done nothing to help humanity, so their deaths are not directly such an issue. The bigger threat is what their deaths will mean for the Oathpact, as I don't think the Oathpact is as irrelevant as rosharans seem to think. Its even possible the threat of true death may make some of them get off their heraldic butts and help.

Corrupted Urithiru is actually imo the biggest threat our heroes face.

Part of the reason I don't find the current circumstances so dire is...whats the big deal of armies and nations if 7 radiants kept back a whole army by themselves on Thaylenah? ^^. I know it was exceptional circumstances, and even then they only held the army back for a while, but still...7 Radiants, seriously.

Another point is that Venli is poised to move to a neutral position a portion of the Singers. Many of them don't actually want war, they just want to live, all they need is a small push/voice to split out. This is a loss/loss for Odium, as if he tries to stop them from leaving more would likely rebel seing they are as much slaves as they were before. The parsh is actually the group I am most sympathetic towards, as they just come out losing no matter what they do, and have been the ones to suffer the most in the first 3 books.

[Kaleid]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

In all seriousness I suspect the war may be a back and forth between the two sides.

 

Thus generating large amounts of hate from either side? Perhaps this is exactly what Odium wants.

 

I'm curious what you mean about corrupted Urithuru.

 

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The parsh is actually the group I am most sympathetic towards

Same! I hope they shake Odium's influence and become key in fighting him (also, this would mean Nale et al would rejoin the forces of good, which could be a big enough deal to be the turning point of the war)

[Cosmé]

Oathbringer brings down the tension level for me, overall, from the WoR ending. The impression at the end of WoR was that the Parshmen would transform into voidbringer killing machines and cause an immediate apocalypse. Right now, it looks more like Roshar is slowly tearing itself apart.

Alethkar, the most powerful nation militarily, has fallen. Its armies are still mostly around though. But I get the feeling that they’re at maybe 30% strength compared to beginning of TWoK, because of various highprinces abandoning Dalinar and casualties.

Ja Keved is being manipulated towards either Odium or Cultivation, but definitely nothing good for the Radiants

The Thaylans are not in a good situation.

The Azish seem to have noped out of the coalition. Dalinar is going to have some explaining to do, since it still looks like his troops attacked Thaylan City.

So, right now Roshar is very weak. The Parshendi are largely unwilling to fight, but Odium is the shard of hate. Getting people to kill each other is his specialty.

The Radiants are reformed, but there are still only about 13 of them. I gather that there are more fused, with far more potentially being created. And Radiants and Fused are roughly on a comparable fighting level.

We’ll see how it develops. I wish we were left with a greater sense of suspension, but if everything we thought after WoR turned out to be true, I think given what we now know about how busted the Unmade are, we’d be looking at a three book series where the good guys lose.

[WhiteLeeopard]

2 minutes ago, Kaleid said:

I'm curious what you mean about corrupted Urithuru.

The radiants left Urithiru for some reason long before the Recreance. Urithiru currently is at the least not functioning. Its incredibly cold, the water and sewers aren't flowing and working, the fields are not yielding crops because its so high up. I bet if they could get the pillar working all of those issues and more would be fixed. Currently one of the biggest advantages which the heroes have is a highly defensible base of operations, which unfortunately isn't working and that they don't understand. Considering Urithiru probably fits the entire population of Roshar, the KR may want to figure it out fast, as having to retreat fully is not entirely improbable.

[Isilel]

6 hours ago, Messremb said:

 IMHO Moash is the single greatest threat to Roshar. Moash is the Evil version of Kaladin. He and Kaladin have very similar back stories.

And that and resultant chips on their shoulders are about all their share. Moash was a drifter, who never achieved anything of note until Kaladin took charge of him. He even managed to botch signing up as a soldier. I mean, what was he, a native of Kholinar and a seasoned traveler who was well aware of various highprinces' behavior records re: commoners, doing signing up with Sadeas's army? And yea, he is a talented fighter, but he is a newb. He'll have a much harder time learning Windrunning with a Honorblade than a proper Radiant would, with the assisstance of their spren. Even if he manages to bond and control Yelig-nar, it will be hard to make him sufficiently threatening to Kaladin, leave alone Szeth, who is familiar with all surges and has Nightblood. And Szeth likely will train other Radiants.

Yes, Moash has surrendered himself to Odium, but he is neither the first nor the last human to do so. Not by a long shot. I fail to see how this qualifies him for being a truly dangerous champion, leave alone a truly menacing shardholder. He only has a chance at  prominence because Dalinar unexpectedly snubbed Odium and a number of other likely prospects were recently killed. And he is neither particularly intelligent, devious, nor cosmerically knowledgeable. So, yea, trading Rayse for him would feel very contrived and really deflate tension, IMHO.

I don't think that if we truly are up for the Odium-shardholder switch, that it would be too late to introduce or re-introduce a new big bad in book 4. Now that I think about even 

Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

Zahel/Vasher

could be a pretty frightening option.

I'd also say that Sanderson already had a true anti-Kaladin in Cosmere Spoilers

Spoiler

Kelsier

and that this person was certainly very open to hatred.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Isilel

[Varenus]

14 hours ago, Cosmé said:

 And Radiants and Fused are roughly on a comparable fighting level.

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. 

Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight. Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. 

Jasnah, who is probably of the fourth ideal if not the fifth, was destroying their vessels with her eyes practically closed. 

So, yes while their ability to return from the dead is fancy, they can't really kill a Radiant either. What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen. Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough. Shallan got shot in the storming head, so even stabbing them through their eyes wouldn't work. That leaves complete beheading and maybe the surge of division. Both of which become much harder, if not impossible, once a Radiant gets their plate. 

12 hours ago, Isilel said:

And yea, he is a talented fighter, but he is a newb. He'll have a much harder time learning Windrunning with a Honorblade than a proper Radiant would, with the assisstance of their spren. 

 

While I agree that Moash is a newb and would make a poor substitute for Rayse, I disagree with your assessment on how well he could be trained. 

Moash is a fast learner when it comes to fighting as you mentioned for one. The lack of a spren mentor is not that big of a deal when you consider that Moash has access to multiple Fused who not only have been fighting with the surge of gravitation for thousands of years, but who have also fought and possibly defeated the original wealder of Moash's Honorblade, Jezrien. Now compare that knowledge of fighting with a spren who probably just lost all its memories transitioning from the Cognative Realm to the Physical and has likely never seen voidbringers because all the Radiant spren of old are now deadeyes. Which would you rather have? Add onto that the one year time skip between books 3 and 4 where Moash will have plenty of time to practice, actually use his powers in combat scenarios, and possibly be granted more powers. That is the making of a villain fit to rival Kaladin.

On a completely separate note, I hope Rayse survives to at least all 10 books. I want him to live up to the hype. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Varenus

[Blackhoof]

16 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Part of the reason I don't find the current circumstances so dire is...whats the big deal of armies and nations if 7 radiants kept back a whole army by themselves on Thaylenah? ^^. I know it was exceptional circumstances, and even then they only held the army back for a while, but still...7 Radiants, seriously.

 

 

1 hour ago, Varenus said:

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. 

Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight. Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. 

Jasnah, who is probably of the fourth ideal if not the fifth, was destroying their vessels with her eyes practically closed. 

So, yes while their ability to return from the dead is fancy, they can't really kill a Radiant either. What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen. Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough. Shallan got shot in the storming head, so even stabbing them through their eyes wouldn't work. That leaves complete beheading and maybe the surge of division. Both of which become much harder, if not impossible, once a Radiant gets their plate. 

 

Both of these points are connected- we must remember that at the Thaylenah, the Radiants had just been super-charged by Dalinar. He gave them absurd amounts of Stormlight for free and kept pumping it to them as they fought. The only reason they held back the army was because Shallan used that Light to create an illusory army and distract them. And the only reason various characters were able to survive and ignore so many injuries is because that endless Stormlight healed them.

In normal circumstances, you have much, much less carried in your pocket. You can't just ignore fatal wounds for hours, you need to conserve your light or you will run out, and quickly.

[Yata]

To add to @Blackhoof's point.

The whole trick worked because Shallan was used to distract them with an Illusion impossible under normal circumstances. This Impossible Illusion was also quite useless in another circumstance, the Sadeas's army was fooled only because they were so influenced by the Thrill to be unable to understand that was an illusion. This removed a big chunk of the Odium's forces

[Varenus]

1 hour ago, Blackhoof said:

 

 

 

Both of these points are connected- we must remember that at the Thaylenah, the Radiants had just been super-charged by Dalinar. He gave them absurd amounts of Stormlight for free and kept pumping it to them as they fought. The only reason they held back the army was because Shallan used that Light to create an illusory army and distract them. And the only reason various characters were able to survive and ignore so many injuries is because that endless Stormlight healed them.

In normal circumstances, you have much, much less carried in your pocket. You can't just ignore fatal wounds for hours, you need to conserve your light or you will run out, and quickly.

My point was not that an army of Fused could not take out a Radiant or small group of Radiants, but that a single Fused would be hard pressed to deal with a single Radiant. Note that I was responding to a remark on Fused vs. Radant  combat effectiveness being similar(and I don't think they are). Which only took into account the individual merits of Radants and Fused, not larger strategical factors such as the amount of Fused. Sorry if it wasn't very clear, I chose bad examples xD 

So I agree with everything you've said, and I realize that the Fused and Odium are more than dangerous enough and were foiled by something they could not have predicted. And that stormlight management is a weakness of the Radiants.

However, I still think that any Radiant at or above the third ideal worth their salt would mop the floor with a Fused, maybe two, even if given only a few minutes of stormlight. And Kaladin does so even outside of the special case of Dalinar's ability to summon stormlight. Such as the scene with the wall guard I mentioned. Shallan survived being shot in the head and that was not during Dalinar's super charging, so Radiants can still take a beating regardless. 

Getting even a semi-prepared Radiant to a point where they can actually be taken out is vastly more difficult than simply breaking a Fused's genheart. Bleeding a Radiant dry of their stormlight still requires the Fused to evaid like crazy and play the waiting game, or to risk going in for a crippling strike, which the Radiant may or may not be able to heal and immediately retaliate. Either way is not as direct as what the Radiant has to accomplish in fighting the Fused, breaking their gemheart.  

Also, the Fused would have a harder time landing blows that would require stormlight to heal if the Radiant already has their shardplate and once the Radiant gets their plate it is implied that they will be able to store and retain stormlight without as much waste, though I think that is just speculation at this point.

So I hope that clarifies what I meant in the previous post. 

[Isilel]

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

Curious as to why you think this, because unless we are talking about Radiants of the first or second ideal, the Fused don't really seem all that threatening to our Knights so far. 

 

And yet, thousands of KRs during the past Desolations were unable to prevent huge death-tolls and collapse of human civilizations. I suspect that we haven't yet seen all that the Fused have to offer and, of course, extraordinary circumstances surrounding Dalinar's Acsencion made things drastically easier for the Radiants than they would have been normally. Particularly for Jasnah and possibly Shallan, where not only were they overcharged with stormlight, but the 3 worlds coming together made their surges exponentially more powerful than they would have been otherwise.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

Kaladin was able to successfully defend Dalinar from not only a Yalig-Nar enhanced, shardplate wearing, dual shardblade wealding Amaram; but a handful of the Fused at the same time. Sure Rock saved him at the very end, but the only times Kaladin was in any danger from the Fused was when he was out of stormlight.

 

Well, honestly, Amaram was a bit of a joke opponent. Both Yelig-Nar and a second shardblade were mostly hindrances rather than help. The first caused him intense, distracting agony during the fight and exploded his shardplate, which helped both Kaladin and Rock to put him down. The second shardblade was just absurd - I mean, dual-wielding is really, really hard, which is why it was almost never used in battle, and why the second weapon was always something short - a dagger or a hatchet. Amaram, a man with no shards of his own until a few months ago and an infistimally small chance of ever gaining any, given how difficult it is and that he was past his physical peak at 35, had neither reason nor opportunity to learn to fight well with 2 gigantic shardblades. I know that Amaram's original concept was that of a dual-wielder, but that's one darling that should have been well and truly smothered. Particularly since Nale is here to show us how it is _really_ done at some point in the future. 

As to the Fused - yes, Kaladin was glutted with stormlight and expended it recklessly. It is a huge advantage. Human surges are stronger, but they run out of juice much quicker, which would normally be a critical tactical consideration in battle.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

Storms, He even "killed" one without using any lashings while he was with the wall guard and he is only of the third ideal. 

Because the Fused didn't know that he was dealing with a surge-binder with a shardblade.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

What wound would be able to kill a Radiant that a Fused could deliver? They don't have shardblades of their own that we have seen.

 

Pretty sure that they will have shardblades this time around. How many times were we told that thousands of Nahel spren died in the Recreance? Yet only about 100 shards, counting both blades and plate, IIRC, are in the hands of various human kingdoms. There are gigantic stashes of dead shards somewhere and it seems fairly likely that they will fall into the hands of Odium's forces. Incidentally, Feverstone Keep, where hundreds of Radiants abandoned their shards in Dalinar's vision, was in a territory now allied with the Fused.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

Getting smashed by a thunderclast does not work as Renarin survived it easily enough.

I doubt that he could have done so under normal circumstances. Thunderclasts killed Heralds in the past, after all.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

Moash is a fast learner when it comes to fighting as you mentioned for one. The lack of a spren mentor is not that big of a deal when you consider that Moash has access to multiple Fused who not only have been fighting with the surge of gravitation for thousands of years, but who have also fought and possibly defeated the original wealder of Moash's Honorblade, Jezrien.

IMHO, a spren bond gives one a certain instinctual understanding of the surges, where with a Honorblade things have to be learned the hard way. That's why Kaladin had any chance against Szeth in WoR at all - even a crumbling, severely deranged Szeth. But the thing is - Kaladin and Szeth - and other Radiants, won't stop learning and improving either. But yea, Fused mentorship will help Moash, I am sure. He'd still feel a bit of an also-ran, IMHO.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

That is the making of a villain fit to rival Kaladin.

Ishar (if he is a traitor, which he IMHO is), Nale and ancient, powerful Fused - the best warriors who didn't arrive on Roshar yet, would be much more threatening opponents for Kaladin et al. It would be very difficult to make Kaladin,  leave alone Szeth, look like an underdog when pitted against Moash. I think it fairly likely that the battle of champions is going to be Nale versus Szeth, rather than supremely predictable and, IMHO, very unexciting Kaladin versus Moash.

 

9 hours ago, Varenus said:

On a completely separate note, I hope Rayse survives to at least all 10 books. I want him to live up to the hype. 

Second this. I'd also like to see some sort of confrontation with Hoid, eventually.

[Weltall]

I have a feeling that if Hoid were to directly confront Rayse at some point in the series, it would only be through some sort of Lightweaving projection or another letter, so that he can be far far away from wherever the latter's attention is directed. When Hoid thinks that Rayse would consider flattening a city an acceptable course of action on the chance that it might, possibly, be enough to kill him, that's a pretty good reason to stay unnoticed. But now I'm imagining Hoid lightweaving an illusion of himself, just to insult Rayse for his own amusement. "Hello old friend, I have some words for you. <Pulls out a record of every curse Lift knows and reads it off> -and even a chull wouldn't agree to do that with you, no matter how many paper bags you used!"

[Varenus]

21 minutes ago, Isilel said:

And yet, thousands of KRs during the past Desolations were unable to prevent huge death-tolls and collapse of human civilizations.

As I said before, the objective of my previous post was to determine which were the more powerful, Radiant or Fused, on an individual bases. Not in the context of a larger war, as the Desolations were, where there are a lot more variables. Are there scenarios where Fused could defeat a Radiant? Sure, but the tables would have to be skewed in favor of the Fused so much that such a contest would not be an accurate representation of the Fused combat effectiveness, but rather Odium and Co.'s superior planning and numbers.  

Also, how many of those Desolations did Odium win? None of them unless you count the Final Desolation, which I don't.  

45 minutes ago, Isilel said:

As to the Fused - yes, Kaladin was glutted with stormlight and expended it recklessly. It is a huge advantage. Human surges are stronger, but they run out of juice much quicker, which would normally be a critical tactical consideration in battle

I agree that pacing and stormlight conservation is indeed important in large scale battles, but I also think that they don't run out as easily as you might think. Its strange, during the first half of the book stormlight is very scarce due to the weeping and strange weather patterns, and at the end of the book stormlight is coming out of their ears. So, stormlight is not as rare as the beginning of the book might lead you to believe and not as plentiful as the end of the book implies. 

that being said, limited stormlight is the one major weakness of the Radiants we have seen so far. But, that is like saying that an archer is only dangerous so long as they have arrows.

 

42 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I suspect that we haven't yet seen all that the Fused have to offer

 

42 minutes ago, Isilel said:

ancient, powerful Fused - the best warriors who didn't arrive on Roshar yet, would be much more threatening opponents for Kaladin

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree that there will be more powerful Fused, but I just put them into a separate category than the normal Fused we have seen so far. Right now I am skeptical if the normal Fused are even truly Voidbinders at all. The Voidbinding chart seems to suggest that each Voidbinder has two surges, yet these Fused are only ever seen using one. I hope the Fused still on Braize are more comparable to Radiants than the Fused we have seen have been so far. Perhaps with evil spren like Ulim.

 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Pretty sure that they will have shardblades this time around. How many times were we told that thousands of Nahel spren died in the Recreance?

Quite right, I was comparing standard issue Fused with standard issue Radiants. Throwing extra shardblades into the mix really muddies the waters. Honestly though, when the Fused were gathering the blades I was wondering if they were doing so just to get the spren itself. Corrupted Radiantspren fighting for Odium sounds even scarier than Fused with shardblades.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I doubt that he could have done so under normal circumstances. Thunderclasts killed Heralds in the past, after all.

Given enough stormlight, I think Renarin could still survive as he has the surge of healing as well as stormlight healing. Maybe not the others though, Renarin is a wildcard right now. The Heralds are weird, supposedly Honor fueled them directly and they never needed stormlight while he was alive. So did they have infinite healing as well? Apparently not or they probably wouldn't have died at all. Maybe they needed to separate the herald from their blade to stop the healing, but that would be the same as running out of stormlight. So I think that getting smashed is still survivable if the Knight or Herald is healing.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Because the Fused didn't know that he was dealing with a surge-binder with a shardblade.

 Certainly Kaladin had the jump on the Fused(pun intended), but it still seems a little absurd that Kaladin was able to do that considering that the average Fused has years and years of flying experience. 

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, a spren bond gives one a certain instinctual understanding of the surges, where with a Honorblade things have to be learned the hard way. That's why Kaladin had any chance against Szeth in WoR at all - even a crumbling, severely deranged Szeth.

You are probably right about the instincts a sprenbond provides, but if you ask me it was the fact that a sprenbond's surges and stormlight consumption is more efficient than an Honnorbalde's that let Kaladin win in the end. And that a Radiantblade can change shape.

As for Moash, remember that he(or Odium) have at least a part of Jezrien's soul. Who knows what Moash could do with both Jezrien's soul and his Honorblade.  

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

But the thing is - Kaladin and Szeth - and other Radiants, won't stop learning and improving either.

Presumably, as with all things, there is a learning curve when it comes to practicing with surges and/or shardblades. I agree that our Radiants will continue to improve their skills, but the time skip, his natural talent for fighting, and Fused mentorship will get Moash through his time as a complete beginner, which is usually the hardest part of learning anything. 

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

Ishar (if he is a traitor, which he IMHO is), Nale and ancient, powerful Fused - the best warriors who didn't arrive on Roshar yet, would be much more threatening opponents for Kaladin et al. It would be very difficult to make Kaladin,  leave alone Szeth, look like an underdog when pitted against Moash. I think it fairly likely that the battle of champions is going to be Nale versus Szeth, rather than supremely predictable and, IMHO, very unexciting Kaladin versus Moash.

I am more than ready for Kaladin to fight some beefed up Fused, and Kaladin fighting Nale and/or Ishar sounds incredible; but I feel that Nale and Ishar are going to be confronted by Szeth and Dalinar respectively. Nale and Ishar, IMO, just don't have reason to become rival(s) for Kaladin. IMO, Moash fits the bill perfectly. Roshone was child Kaladin's antagonist, Amaram was soldier Kaladin's antagonist, and Moash is radiant Kaladin's antagonist.

I agree that Moash vs. Kaladin does seem like the most predictable champion pairing, which is why I don't think it will end up being them. This is Sanderson we are talking about after all, you know there is going to be a crazy plot twist somehow. 

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

I have a feeling that if Hoid were to directly confront Rayse at some point in the series, it would only be through some sort of Lightweaving projection or another letter

I need this to happen now. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

15 hours ago, Weltall said:

But now I'm imagining Hoid lightweaving an illusion of himself, just to insult Rayse for his own amusement. "Hello old friend, I have some words for you. <Pulls out a record of every curse Lift knows and reads it off> -and even a chull wouldn't agree to do that with you, no matter how many paper bags you used!"

-And then Odium shattered Roshar-

Hoid standing on the door to the shardpool from the Cognitive Realm: Oops, that got a little out of hand

12 hours ago, Varenus said:

As for Moash, remember that he(or Odium) have at least a part of Jezrien's soul. Who knows what Moash could do with both Jezrien's soul and his Honorblade.  

Honestly my impression after Odium lost his shot at having the Blackthorn as his champion and was left with possible runner up Moash was poor Odium. He went from a champion that could destroy whole armies with a normal sword and no Plate, who conquered a third of Roshar through his brutality and who is on the list of most bloodthirsty warlords in the history of Roshar (as if there were few)...to whiny Moash. Its like daaaamn, serious downgrade. 

[Kaleid]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Honestly my impression after Odium lost his shot at having the Blackthorn as his champion and was left with possible runner up Moash was poor Odium

 

I've seen this sentiment a few times - why do people think Moash is now Odium's champion? Doesn't Taravangian's final chapter pretty much explicitly state that that ship has sailed? Odium has already selected his champion, he cannot now unselect his champion because suddenly he believes he might have a better option.