Szeth, the Stone Shamans, and Taln's Honorblade

[.S.A.M.K.M]

So far we have seen a couple of groups that had secrets and power. The sky breakers, ghost bloods, sons of honor and the diagram. The stone shamans might have heir own source of power and secrets.

[Song]

Theory: Taln's blade is important. The way the Herald's refused the Oath pact is by giving up their swords. Taln is the only one who didn't and therefore his sword is the only thing that makes another Oathpact possible. 

If, as many have suggested, someone is going back to Braize to give humanity time, that person will need his sword to take up the pact.

Which makes it's location very important.

Just an idea.

 

[RShara]

4 hours ago, Song said:

Theory: Taln's blade is important. The way the Herald's refused the Oath pact is by giving up their swords. Taln is the only one who didn't and therefore his sword is the only thing that makes another Oathpact possible. 

If, as many have suggested, someone is going back to Braize to give humanity time, that person will need his sword to take up the pact.

Which makes it's location very important.

Just an idea.

 

I don't think the Heralds leaving their swords was relevant to the Oathpact.  It was more a symbol that they don't consider themselves Heralds (worthy to wield them?) any more.  Their refusal to return to Braize is enough. 

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So far we have seen a couple of groups that had secrets and power. The sky breakers, ghost bloods, sons of honor and the diagram. The stone shamans might have heir own source of power and secrets.

I don't disagree.  But finding an Honorblade across the length and breadth of Roshar, at the exact moment (or soon after) that it's "unbonded"?  Then retrieving it and replacing it with a deadblade undetected, unnoticed, with no sign left over?  And finally, getting it mixed up with a completely different Honorblade? 

I could accept one of the above, maybe two.  But all three together?  Nope, too implausible for me.

That reminds me.  Even if they had a Shardblade to switch, *why* would they be interested in swapping Szeth's deadBlade with another, instead of just stealing it and disappearing?  If they could appear and disappear with no trace, then no one would have any clue who took his deadBlade, so they wouldn't exactly care about being caught.

No, the only logical conclusion I can draw is that someone switched Taln's Blade, specifically, probably maliciously, with the express intention of either acquiring an Honorblade of their own, or casting doubt on Taln being a Herald.

Edited January 4, 2018 by RShara

[.S.A.M.K.M]

What specificly marked the point in a desolation for when a herald had to go to damnation? All the fused sent away. The thing is the ever storm means they can always get a new form. What if then some how the heralds need to find a way to send the ever storm itself to damnation? Is killing a fused the only way to force it out of a vessel?

if there was a way to drive them out, potentially enmass, it allows a chance for them to be dealt with.

[Calderis]

@RShara the blade swap is irrelevant. Regardless of who stole the blade, they took it with anyone knowing. Anyone could have just taken the blade and ran.

The only thing I find significant about the swap, is that it proves that whoever did it knew what the blade was. There's no reason to swap a Shardblade for a Shardblade.... 

Hell, iny head, the only groups that register as possibilities, beyond this speculation obviously, that would have the knowledge available to both recognize Taln or his Blade on sight is another Herald, or an Aimian (of either type). 

But unless they were there, there there has to be an explanation for how anyone knew to steal the blade. It was either stolen immediately (between the time that we see Taln, and the time that Bordin meets him) for Bordin not to notice that the blade he is transporting with the madman had changed appearance completely. Or One of Dalinar's most trusted servants, who he set as a spy on Aesudan, and who had had barely any development whatsoever, is a traitor. Option two feels like a waste without any build-up. 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

I wonder if the bond smith can rebound the oath pact.

[RShara]

20 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

I wonder if the bond smith can rebound the oath pact.

Why would he want to?  It’s been proven ineffective. Trying it again would be throwing good money after bad.  Or rather throwing good people to be tortured and broken 

[digitalbusker]

23 hours ago, RShara said:

But finding an Honorblade across the length and breadth of Roshar, at the exact moment (or soon after) that it's "unbonded"?  Then retrieving it and replacing it with a deadblade undetected, unnoticed, with no sign left over?  And finally, getting it mixed up with a completely different Honorblade? 

There's no need for them to assume it's Jezrien's blade. Given that they have collected all the rest, clearly they think they're the proper keepers of Honorblades. It does require them to have a general, rather than specific, Honorblade-detector, but again, they have until recently had all of them that were on Roshar, so why not?

[RShara]

Just now, digitalbusker said:

There's no need for them to assume it's Jezrien's blade. Given that they have collected all the rest, clearly they think they're the proper keepers of Honorblades. It does require them to have a general, rather than specific, Honorblade-detector, but again, they have until recently had all of them that were on Roshar, so why not?

They've had 8.  Nale stole hid from them decades ago (long enough that Szeth only had stories and drawings).  Taln's had his until recently. 

Szeth had his for 6 years.

And again, (this is to Cal as well) why would they bother to *switch* the Honorblades?  Why not just take it, as rightfully theirs, and leave?  No one would care or know.  Switching them implies a far subtler motive than just recovering an Honorblade.

[digitalbusker]

28 minutes ago, RShara said:

They've had 8.  Nale stole hid from them decades ago (long enough that Szeth only had stories and drawings).  Taln's had his until recently. 

Szeth had his for 6 years.

And again, (this is to Cal as well) why would they bother to *switch* the Honorblades?  Why not just take it, as rightfully theirs, and leave?  No one would care or know.  Switching them implies a far subtler motive than just recovering an Honorblade.

On the timescale of Honorblades, "decades" is recent.

But yes, the motive for switching the blade is a problem* with the theory. I'm just saying that "Why would they confuse Taln's blade with Jezrien's?" isn't.

*: Not that the Stone Shamans don't already do a whole bunch of strange stuff for reasons that only make sense to them--maybe the retrieval teams are all from the Brotherhood of Wayne, and are honor bound to leave something in place of what they took.

[RShara]

19 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

On the timescale of Honorblades, "decades" is recent.

But yes, the motive for switching the blade is a problem* with the theory. I'm just saying that "Why would they confuse Taln's blade with Jezrien's?" isn't.

*: Not that the Stone Shamans don't already do a whole bunch of strange stuff for reasons that only make sense to them--maybe the retrieval teams are all from the Brotherhood of Wayne, and are honor bound to leave something in place of what they took.

It could have been centuries or millennia.  Szeth only says, "long ago" and Nale's been running around for 4500 years.

And as I said, I could accept one or two of the suppositions and difficulties.  But all of them together is way too improbable for me.

[Calderis]

@RShara and again, why would anyone, bother to switch the blades? That's a question that has to be answered no matter who took them. The fact that no one was aware of the swap makes it completely unnecessary, and also means they had to know it was an honor adequate, which in my mind, narrows it to a Herald, an Aimian, or the shamans.

@digitalbusker a general detection is exactly what I'm describing, and I have no idea why that's so far fetched. 

[RShara]

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@RShara and again, why would anyone, bother to switch the blades? That's a question that has to be answered no matter who took them. The fact that no one was aware of the swap makes it completely unnecessary, and also means they had to know it was an honor adequate, which in my mind, narrows it to a Herald, an Aimian, or the shamans.

@digitalbusker a general detection is exactly what I'm describing, and I have no idea why that's so far fetched. 

As I've said.  One supposition I could go with.  Two, even.  But two suppositions, and two or three high difficulty maneuvers, causes it to be too improbably for me.

And I ask again, what motives do the Shamans have to switch the Blades?  Yes, it means that they had to know it was an Honorblade, but it also means they have a motive for other people to either think that the Honorblade is still present, or that Taln is not a Herald.  There might be more possibilities beyond those two, but they seem the most likely to me, and neither of them make sense for the Shamanite.

 

These are the points I dispute (copied from page 1, with edits):

1.  That the Shin have a way of knowing when an Honorblade is unbound.  This has a really big assumption built in--that they are using some form of magic or magically enhanced tracking.  Szeth has so far made no mention of any particular powers among the Shin, other than the Honorblades themselves.  I find it much more likely that they are monitoring for news about Szeth and will trace the path of the Honorblade from that point.

2.  That they would confuse the Windrunner blade with the Stoneward blade with whatever tracking they have.  If there's a tracking system, it would make more sense for it to be on the blade, rather than a worldwide "Honorblade Alert! Alert!" system.  Also, Taln dropped his Honorblade, yes.  But he didn't "Unbond" it.  He's still alive and didn't dismiss it.  We don't have any information on how deep or shallow an Honorblade's bond to its Herald is.  But given it goes with them to Damnation and back, and hasn't ever been taken away from them after who-knows-how-many millennia of torture and death, I think it's safe to say that the bond is pretty strong.   Nale has had his Honorblade for "a long time" so if they have a general Honorblade Alert system, how would they know whether it was Nale's blade or Szeths?

And a few other things that seem very difficult.

3.  I know the Shin have access to the Honorblades that confer the Transportation surge, but being able to pop in, grab and *switch* the Blade, and pop back out seems like something that would be very difficult to do.  Since the Shin find warriors and fighting rather lowly, it seems unlikely they'd be very good at sneaking, infiltration, theft, and cover up.  Not to mention, the Blade was likely separated from Taln and put under trusted guard pretty much right away.  So they would have had to track down where the Blade was being held before they could get to it. An inside job would make a lot more sense.

4.  Where did the fake Honorblade come from?  Do the Shin have a bunch of random Shardblades hidden away too?  Given that they find Stormlight and fabrials profane, it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to keep dead sprenblades lying around.

5.  What motive would the Shamans have to switch the Blades?  A snatch and run would be easier and make more sense.    Yes, this means that someone didn't want the switch to be immediately obvious.  Someone who was *aware* that Taln was really a Herald.  You said yourself in your first post that

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So the shamans take flight (figuratively, most likely through the surge of transportation with the Elsecaller and Willshaper blades) shortly after to where the blade fell, and make the swap. They return to Shinovar, and are obviously aware that the newfound blade in their possession is one they've never had before. 

They've historically held all of the blades until Nale reclaimed his, and most likely have representations of what they look like. They would immediately know that this is the tenth blade that they have never held, and what precisely it means. 

Panic ensues, their entire belief structure falls into turmoil, and so when Szeth dies they don't even bother to try and retrieve Jezrien's blade. 

  That argues *against* them knowing Taln was back and thus against them swapping the Honorblade.

Edited January 5, 2018 by RShara

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, RShara said:

1.  That the Shin have a way of knowing when an Honorblade is unbound.  This has a really big assumption built in--that they are using some form of magic or magically enhanced tracking.  Szeth has so far made no mention of any particular powers among the Shin, other than the Honorblades themselves.  I find it much more likely that they are monitoring for news about Szeth and will trace the path of the Honorblade from that point.

Considering there are spiritual uses of the surges, I don't think it's far fetched. Spiritual Gravitation for example could easily play with Connection (which would facilitate Kaladin's resonance) 

49 minutes ago, RShara said:

2.  That they would confuse the Windrunner blade with the Stoneward blade with whatever tracking they have.  If there's a tracking system, it would make more sense for it to be on the blade, rather than a worldwide "Honorblade Alert! Alert!" system.  Also, Taln dropped his Honorblade, yes.  But he didn't "Unbond" it.  He's still alive and didn't dismiss it.  We don't have any information on how deep or shallow an Honorblade's bond to its Herald is.  But given it goes with them to Damnation and back, and hasn't ever been taken away from them after who-knows-how-many millennia of torture and death, I think it's safe to say that the bond is pretty strong.   Nale has had his Honorblade for "a long time" so if they have a general Honorblade Alert system, how would they know whether it was Nale's blade or Szeths?

I've never said they were targeting a specific Honorblade. I don't think there's any confusion at all. If Nale were to for some unknown reason drop his Blade, I think they'd have done the same thing. 

I see no reason to think that Taln is still bonded to the blade that he dropped. 

51 minutes ago, RShara said:

3.  I know the Shin have access to the Honorblades that confer the Transportation surge, but being able to pop in, grab and *switch* the Blade, and pop back out seems like something that would be very difficult to do.  Since the Shin find warriors and fighting rather lowly, it seems unlikely they'd be very good at sneaking, infiltration, theft, and cover up.  Not to mention, the Blade was likely separated from Taln and put under trusted guard pretty much right away.  So they would have had to track down where the Blade was being held before they could get to it. An inside job would make a lot more sense.

The Shin seem to only have an issue with killing, not fighting. They have the only developed martial art we've seen on Roshar, which seems designed for grabs and holds, which coincidentally as Szeth has shown us, seems remarkably well design for a Surgebinder to touch an assailant. 

Their aversion to killing, rather than fighting actually makes the skills you describe more likely in my mind. 

54 minutes ago, RShara said:

 4. Where did the fake Honorblade come from?  Do the Shin have a bunch of random Shardblades hidden away too?  Given that they find Stormlight and fabrials profane, it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to keep dead sprenblades lying around

Unless the know what the deadblades are, I see no reason against it, and the likelihood of there being no Shardblades in Shinovar seems farfetched to me. 

55 minutes ago, RShara said:

5.  What motive would the Shamans have to switch the Blades?  A snatch and run would be easier and make more sense.    Yes, this means that someone didn't want the switch to be immediately obvious.  Someone who was *aware* that Taln was really a Herald.  You said yourself in your first post that

It requires no knowledge of Taln. As we've already discussed here, the Shin are averse to killing. Leaving a Shardblade in place of what the holder most likely believes is a regular Shardblade lowers the chances of them attempting to recover the other blade. 

And as I've repeatedly said, this is not a problem for just this group. You have to stretch to come up with a reason for anyone to have swapped the blade instead of taking it. 

57 minutes ago, RShara said:

That argues *against* them knowing Taln was back and thus against them swapping the Honorblade.

I don't believe they knew Taln was back until after they retrieved the blade. I've never said differently, and I disagree completely. 

[RShara]

Heading to bed but I gave two reasons above for why someone would switch rather than steal the Blade.  Neither of which would make sense for the Shin.  Which is what I meant by the last text you quoted.

I can clarify more in the morning if needed.

 

i gave several reasons why Taln would still be bonded to his Blade.  He isn’t some random person with an Honorblade.  It’s his,  made for him by Honor.  Meant to stay by his side through war and battle and torture and hiding and death.  I just don’t see how passing out would unbound him.

And again if they can pop in and out untraceably, why bother to leave a deadBlade in its place?  No tracks or traces means no trail leading back to them.

Edited January 5, 2018 by RShara

[Isilel]

5 hours ago, RShara said:

 This has a really big assumption built in--that they are using some form of magic or magically enhanced tracking.  Szeth has so far made no mention of any particular powers among the Shin, other than the Honorblades themselves.

 

Not to mention the very tight time-table. How much time elapsed between Taln's appearance and Bordin taking charge of him? Given the weeks needed to travel from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains? And how much more time passed between Szeth's "death" and loss of Jezrien's Honorblade and it being stolen from Bridge 4? How is it that the Shamans were so very prompt with one Honorblade, and so very lax with the other?

 

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 But given it goes with them to Damnation and back, and hasn't ever been taken away from them after who-knows-how-many millennia of torture and death, I think it's safe to say that the bond is pretty strong.   Nale has had his Honorblade for "a long time" so if they have a general Honorblade Alert system, how would they know whether it was Nale's blade or Szeths?

 

This and this. History suggests that it is impossible to separate the Heralds from their Honorblades against their will and also demonstrates a notable failure to track the one that was "stolen" from Shin custody.

Quote

  I know the Shin have access to the Honorblades that confer the Transportation surge, but being able to pop in, grab and *switch* the Blade, and pop back out seems like something that would be very difficult to do.  Since the Shin find warriors and fighting rather lowly, it seems unlikely they'd be very good at sneaking, infiltration, theft, and cover up.

Yes, we don't really know how the "Motion" part of the Transportation surge really works and if popping in is even feasible at all. But Illumination certainly would provide an alternative method for sneaking in. I also think that, like the use of stormlight, all these restrictions don't apply to the members of the Shamanate. I mean, Szeth had all these skills before his exile.

I agree that it had to be an inside job... and in particular I suspect Liss, who is, IMHO Herald Chana and who seemed to be strangely absent from the picture when Aesudan went off the deep end. Liss was also suspected of having a normal shardblade, which she could have unbonded and substituted for Taln's.

Though it is somewhat curious that Bordin didn't report anything concerning about the queen either, given that at least some of her indulgences and mis-management should have been already apparent when he left to reach the extent seen in Lhan interlude.

Alternatively, the thief could be Kalak, who, while he posed as an "ambassador from the West" during Gavilar's fateful feast, looks like an Alethi and could pass without note among them.

 

@Calderis:

I don't think that all the surges have spiritual uses beyond the resonances that we are already aware of - i.e. "spiritual gravitation" is expressed in number and strength of the Windrunner squires and a bonus to their leadership stat. Bondsmiths and their power of spiritual Connection are supposed to be special, after all,  and there is a hint that it comes at the cost lesser effectiveness of their surges in the physical realm.

And while I do believe that the Shin have normal sharblades stashed, how on Roshar could anybody attempt to recover Taln's blade if it it just vanished? Shin wouldn't need to care about the hue and cry it's  disappearance left behind - if they did, they wouldn't have unleashed Szeth with Jezrien's Blade at the world in the first place.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Not to mention the very tight time-table. How much time elapsed between Taln's appearance and Bordin taking charge of him? Given the weeks needed to travel from Kholinar to the Shattered Plains? And how much more time passed between Szeth's "death" and loss of Jezrien's Honorblade and it being stolen from Bridge 4? How is it that the Shamans were so very prompt with one Honorblade, and so very lax with the other?

Might as well tag @RShara too, as your mainly agreeing with her points that I haven't responded to yet. 

Because exactly as I've said, (again in a theory tagged "rampant speculation" that I've said is tenuous multiple times) they were prompt with the first because of the the detection, and the use of transportation. 

After it the ramifications of recovering the tenth Honorblade, which they know they've never held, they knew what was coming. Their religion is breaking and the reason they gold the Honorblades is moot. They didn't bother to come for Jezrien's blade at all, precisely because of they have Taln's blade. 

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

This and this. History suggests that it is impossible to separate the Heralds from their Honorblades against their will and also demonstrates a notable failure to track the one that was "stolen" from Shin custody.

This is just as much assumption as I've made. We have been explicitly told that the Honorblades bond on touch. So as I said, even if he didn't "unbonded the blade" it bonded to someone else when  they picked it up. 

And additionally, the Heralds retaining their Blades after "death" is meaningless as well, because they don't die, they just lose their physical body. 

Without a physical body, it's possible that like the we saw with Shardblades the others in Shadesmar, it's impossible to summon the blade at all. So they are tortured in Braize without the ability to summon a blade, and this no ability to relinquish it. 

As to Nale, who has ever said it was stolen? Weve never been told that. If a Herald were to walk into Shinovar, and demand the return of their blade, would it be denied? He reclaimed his Blade. That's all we know.

And the Liss as Chana thing... I find it absolutely hilarious that you so vehemently disagree with one of my theories. Because your a believer of probably my most crackpot, speculative theory ever. 

 

[RShara]

Szeth says that the 9th Honorblade "Disappeared long ago."

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“I worked for thousands of years to prevent another Desolation,” Nin continued. “Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

He stopped at the top of the steps and looked down at his hand, where a glistening Shardblade appeared. One of the two missing Honorblades. Szeth’s people had care of eight. Once, long ago, it had been nine. Then this one had vanished.

He’d seen depictions of it, strikingly straight and unornamented for a Shardblade, yet still elegant. Two slits ran the length of the weapon, gaps that could never exist in an ordinary sword, as they would weaken it.

"This one had vanished" doesn't sound like "This one had been given back to its Herald."

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Szeth says that the 9th Honorblade "Disappeared long ago."

"This one had vanished" doesn't sound like "This one had been given back to its Herald."

True. I'd forgotten that, thank you. 

[MonsterMetroid]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have been explicitly told that the Honorblades bond on touch

I've assumed this is the case but where does it say this. Legitimately asking

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And additionally, the Heralds retaining their Blades after "death" is meaningless as well, because they don't die, they just lose their physical body. 

Without a physical body, it's possible that like the we saw with Shardblades the others in Shadesmar, it's impossible to summon the blade at all. So they are tortured in Braize without the ability to summon a blade, and this no ability to relinquish it. 

I always assumed they still had their physical bodies but that they were just transported to Braize somehow. Haven't put much thought into this interesting

 

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

I've assumed this is the case but where does it say this. Legitimately asking

It's a combination of a couple of WoBs.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7838

Quote

Questioner

If someone was using an Honorblade, would they be able to bond a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

It is indeed possible.

Questioner

Possible. It doesn't block it in any way.

Brandon Sanderson

It does not block it. Good question. You do not have to bond Honorblades.  Honorblades work with whoever holds them.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible(in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

 

[RShara]

But both of those refer to regular people, not to the person for whom the Honorblade was specifically made.

In thousands of years of violence, no Herald was ever knocked out in battle with his Blade out?

[MonsterMetroid]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's a combination of a couple of WoBs.

Ah! Interesting thanks for the WoBs.

Come to think of it... Do you guys think there is an additional connection to the heralds and their blades besides the shallow bond when they are holding them?

When the heralds find out that Taln died, they did not go looking for his blade. This tells me that they must have know it was with him. So I would assume that when a herald dies their blade goes with their body/spirit to braize.

Except when Jez was killed, the way moash killed him must have allowed the blade to stay because it either severed/stole the connection to the blade.

I dont know what do you guys think?

Edited January 5, 2018 by MonsterMetroid
minor typo fix

[RShara]

No.  Cal is 100% wrong.

/thread

There, happy?

[Calderis]

@RShara 

@MonsterMetroid I think there is an additional connection, but it's not directly a product of the blades or the Heralds themselves, but the Oathpact.