[OB] How Surgebinding destroys planets

[Lopens_Cousin]

Just finished OB and haven’t gone through all the posts here, so maybe it’s been addressed... but...

In the Ars Arcanum section on Windrunning, Khriss writes about the Lashings:

Quote

Effectively, this creates a change in gravitational pull, twisting the energies of the planet itself. - Oathbringer, Hardcover pg. 1240

It seems pretty clear that this tells us how at least one form of surgebinding can mess up the physics of a planet, and if adhesion manipulates airpressure (rather than friction, for example) then accumulative perturbations in air pressure would certainly have the potential to make things wonky, planetwide. Especially if there were squires and such on Ashyn. Pretty sure 1000s - 10,000s of windrunners could mess some stuff up real bad. But I’m no physicist, and so I can’t develop the theory much farther than that though :/

I think this is a pretty obvious clue, and so probably has been discussed, if anyone can point me in that direction

But maybe not. Any thoughts or discussion on how the other surges (like scary-arse division) work? I mean if Division nullifies (one or more types of) molecular bonds, or even (sweet jeezus) quantum forces... yikes. I remember a neat theory about Lightweavers possibly being able to manipulate microwaves and EM radiation in general.  I think Rushu and other scholars will become more prominent characters going forward, as/if the ramifications of surgebinding become a bigger part of the plot line  

Anyway, clearly this has been made into a problem that the KR will have to resolve in some way. Lol... maybe “Unite Them” applies to both (all three?) means of surgebinding, and that somehow balances the effects on planetary physics... it seems that Unite Them applies to just about everything anyway xD..

Edited January 2, 2018 by lopens_cousin

[Varion he/him]

This is an angle I hadn't considered before -- an accumulated unbalancing of natural forces that presumably build towards a tipping point and catastrophic system collapse -- akin to a runaway greenhouse effect on Earth. I'd been assuming something more immediate and dramatic, analogous to a nuclear apocalypse, but a slower environmental collapse makes a lot of sense too.  

One question though. Are you assuming that the surges humans had access to on Ashyn with Odium were similar to to the current surgebinding the KR use? Wouldn't it be more likely that they would be using Voidbinding surges, which come from Odium? Or perhaps something else entirely that we haven"t seen yet? 

[Orlion Blight he/him]

Just now, Varion said:

One question though. Are you assuming that the surges humans had access to on Ashyn with Odium were similar to to the current surgebinding the KR use? Wouldn't it be more likely that they would be using Voidbinding surges, which come from Odium? Or perhaps something else entirely that we haven"t seen yet? 

That's my main question, too. We all ready have at least two different forms of Lightweaving, can that be extended to Surgebinding? And if there is a difference, would that difference address environmental dangers?

[digitalbusker he/him]

3 minutes ago, Varion said:

Wouldn't it be more likely that they would be using Voidbinding surges, which come from Odium?

The Surges wouldn't be different, but the way you access them would be. It wouldn't have been a Nahel bond or an Honorblade, for sure.

[Patrick Star]

Actually, it's because of how these things are fueled.  We know that stormlight is a gas, and similar to breaths from Nalthis.  And what do humans create when they breathe?  Carbon Dioxide.  And if you have a ton of humans doing this at the same time and using massive amounts of stormlight, that's a lot of CO2.

Therefore, the first Human Surgebinders destroyed their planet via Global Warming.

But seriously, I read it as being a result of uncontrolled surge usage.  That's why the Knights Radiant were founded.  It wasn't a way to grant humans power, but as a way to limit how they used the surges.  By binding surge usage to the oaths of their order(s), they wouldn't pose a risk to Roshar on a planetary scale.

[Lopens_Cousin]

31 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

But seriously, I read it as being a result of uncontrolled surge usage.  That's why the Knights Radiant were founded.  It wasn't a way to grant humans power, but as a way to limit how they used the surges.  By binding surge usage to the oaths of their order(s), they wouldn't pose a risk to Roshar on a planetary scale.

I don’t think that’s accurate. The heralds founded the knights once they saw that surgebinders were manifesting (again)... or at the very least founded them to reduce how much rebuilding and relearning had to take place between Desolations. I think they were more worried that Desolations would destroy the planet, rather than surgebinding. But, you are right that the Oathes were meant to act as a safeguard on the power of surgebinding. I guess I interpreted that as they would be used for good, not tempered to reduce the damage to the planet. 

 

46 minutes ago, TheOrlionThatComesBefore said:

That's my main question, too. We all ready have at least two different forms of Lightweaving, can that be extended to Surgebinding? And if there is a difference, would that difference address environmental dangers?

Yeah... the Surges would probably be the same, given it is still the same planetary system.... right? But even if they were different, they would still be physical forces... and “twisting” them, as Khriss suspects, would probably be real bad in high magnitude over a long time. 

 

I can can see the surgebinders on Ashyn really developing and pushing the extent of their powers. If they didn’t have Desolations to fight, they would be able to pursue technological (surgeological?) advancement. Like... “Hey! A floating City would be totes cool, right? Of course it would! Let’s do it! ......hey! Why is gravity all weird now? .... oh... oops”

44 minutes ago, digitalbusker said:

The Surges wouldn't be different, but the way you access them would be. It wouldn't have been a Nahel bond or an Honorblade, for sure.

 

[Varion he/him]

Ok, following this train of thought that the nahel bonds, and the orders of the KR were designed, at least in part, to limit the side effects of surge use, would the increasing use of fabrials consitute an environmental threat to Roshar?

 

35 minutes ago, lopens_cousin said:

I can see the surgebinders on Ashyn really developing and pushing the extent of their powers. If they didn’t have Desolations to fight, they would be able to pursue technological (surgeological?) advancement. Like... “Hey! A floating City would be totes cool, right? Of course it would! Let’s do it! ......hey! Why is gravity all weird now? .... oh... oops"

Oh crap! I just thought of something. I've assumed that the human refugees arrived on Roshar through the CR. But what if they were technologically and Realmatically advance enough to build spaceships? Three of them specifically. And what if those ships were still in orbit around Roshar? 

Or has this already been suggested and debunked like a thousand times?

(Brandon does love the Chronicles of Pern.)

Edited January 2, 2018 by Varion

[SpeakoftheDeval]

12 minutes ago, lopens_cousin said:

I don’t think that’s accurate. The heralds founded the knights once they saw that surgebinders were manifesting (again)... or at the very least founded them to reduce how much rebuilding and relearning had to take place between Desolations. I think they were more worried that Desolations would destroy the planet, rather than surgebinding. But, you are right that the Oathes were meant to act as a safeguard on the power of surgebinding. I guess I interpreted that as they would be used for good, not tempered to reduce the damage to the planet. 

I'm pretty sure it was both, or at least it was in a book somewhere where it said that Ishi forced organisation on the surgebinders, fearing the greater power of the surges, whereas most modern characters assume that it was to guide and protect mankind when the heralds couldn't.

[Lopens_Cousin]

14 minutes ago, Varion said:

Ok, following this train of thought that the nahel bonds, and the orders of the KR were designed, at least in part, to limit the side effects of surge use, would the increasing use of fabrials consitute an environmental threat to Roshar?

Maybe some types. At least a few of them conserve energy, or effects, and so are net neutral. Surgebinding uses investiture from the spirit realm and is changing or adding something to the system, potentially making it unstable... maybe? 

Surgebinding is different than investing on Scadrial and Nalthis (not sure about Sel). Investing on those planets has no, or net neutral effects on the physical realm. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by lopens_cousin

[Pagerunner he/him]

A reminder for new users: please do not double-post. Use the edit button instead to add onto a post.

I really like this idea. It's the one I've been ruminating on for a little while now - that the Surges aren't just imitations of natural forces, but the actual way that natural forces manifest in the Roshar system. The Surgebinders, whatever magic system they are from, redirect the Surges to do their bidding, and if they redirect too much gravity, per se, there's not enough gravity left to hold the planet together.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

46 minutes ago, Varion said:

Oh crap! I just thought of something. I've assumed that the human refugees arrived on Roshar through the CR. But what if they were technologically and Realmatically advance enough to build spaceships? Three of them specifically. And what if those ships were still in orbit around Roshar? 

Or has this already been suggested and debunked like a thousand times?

Pretty sure you are referring to the periodically synchronized moons that orbit roshar opposite to the rotation of the planet, right?

Looking up some WoBs and WoPs there's definitely something interesting going on with the Moons of Roshar.

WoP first (bold emphasis added):

Spoiler

Peter Ahlstrom

Come on, guys, there are major major reasons Roshar can't possibly be a moon and one of the moons a gas giant. Think about it.

Peter Ahlstrom

Each moon is in the sky only once per day and moves across the sky in a couple to a few hours. What does that tell us about their orbits?

Could a gas giant be far enough away to look like a small moon, yet have this rapid of an apparent motion? (The answer is NO.)

Kurkistan

That they're really fast/close, I would think. Perhaps unusually so...  

Peter Ahlstrom

You may not be aware, but Mars's moon Phobos orbits in less than 8 hours, and gets less than 6,000 km from Mars's surface.

Kurkistan

Curses! Foiled again by SCIENCE!!!

Okay, so the orbits aren't magically augmented.

Still, that leaves us some information. The three moons are likely captured asteroids, then, rather than having split off from Roshar during its formation, Luna-style. Three captured asteroids at the same time in relatively stable, seemingly very close orbits... Anything significant in that, science people?

Peter Ahlstrom

I expect the moons were put in their current orbits artificially, but by whom or what I do not know. On astronomical terms, these are not stable orbits, but astronomical terms means millions of years. A few thousand or even a few hundred thousand years are no problem.

By the way, I minored in astronomy while at the university, for expressly science fictional purposes.

Robot Aztec

are the [tides] funky for moons [then]? or are moons too [small]?

Peter Ahlstrom

They are very small. Think Phobos and you'll be in the ballpark.

So these moons are roughly the size of Phobos, and Phobos has a mean diameter of ~14 miles, that's a heck of a spaceship, but could transport a very large population. The large Hadron collider has a circumference of 17 miles, so this is a structure/ship that would be feasible to build (in terms of scale) given enough forewarning of the coming apocalypse and a sufficiently advanced tech level.

and this very interesting WoB (bolding added):

Spoiler

Questioner

Roshar has three moons that orbit it, and I notice that these orbits somewhat collide. I was wondering if the moons have anything to do with...

Brandon Sanderson

The moons are a little bit of a hint, but it’s not about what you’re thinking. They are not in a stable orbit on astronomical terms. They’ll last tens of thousands of years before they degrade. But it is a little bit of a hint of things. The fact that Roshar has three moons in a very specific orbit is a hint about things.

This is an interesting light to look at Hoid's story of the Tsa and Mishim in, but then again, maybe it's like UFO sightings on Earth. Tsa had to explain to her husband why she was going to have a blue skinned baby, so naturally she comes up with an alien abduction story.

I think this is very interesting though, I'm not the best at using Arcanum, so if Brandon or Peter has explicitly stated that these are moons or that they predate the arrival of humans it would be great to get that info.

One other thing to think about, along lines of pure speculation, is what tech level was Ashyn at prior to the Cataclysm? For spaceships to have existed in stable orbits for Millennia it would heavily imply that they had at least 1960's tech, magically enhanced (possibly using fabrials like the Half Shards in Jah Keved), the ability to create more durable heat resistant metals (mining, refining, etc).

Edited January 2, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Varion he/him]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine, yes, it's the moons I was referring to. And they are exactly the WoB's that have been kicking around in my mind for a while regarding the moons. It was the prompt about possible technology on Ashyn that sparked the leap.

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

One other thing to think about, along lines of pure speculation, is what tech level was Ashyn at prior to the Cataclysm? For spaceships to have existed in stable orbits for Millennia it would heavily imply that they had at least 1960's tech, magically enhanced (possibly using fabrials like the Half Shards in Jah Keved), the ability to create more durable heat resistant metals (mining, refining, etc).

Well, this idea came in a theoretical discussion that assumed Ashyn was technologically and/or realmatically advanced enough to destroy their own planet through environmental collapse. Following that assumption, it's not a stretch that they would have the motivation and ability to start a space project. 

If we are talking magically enhanced space travel, then the size of ship shouldn't be a big issue, especially an Ark ship. They'd have to be advanced enough to build it in space, but our own history shows that huge technological progress an be made in a short time with a dedicated effort. I wonder if Moore's Law holds in the Cosmere? 

EDIT:

It actually looks like there a fair amount of evidence of technological innovation on Ashyn. I forgot that the forthcoming book, Silence Divine was going to be based on Ashyn, with a magic system based on diseases, and floating cities in the sky. Obviously, we don't exactly when in the timeline SD will be set, but it's not unreasonable to assume that the exodus and the origin floating cities were in the same general era. Here's the entry on Coppermind:

Quote

Ashyn is a planet in the solar system of Greater Roshar.^[2] It is the first planet from Roshar's sun ^[1]. The only other planets with sentient life in the system are Braize and Roshar, though the system includes more than three planets total.^[3]

The book The Silence Divine is set here.^[2] The magic system involves people who gain magical powers from diseases.^[4]

Ashyn is mostly barren, with a few fertile patches.^[2] While there are humans inhabiting this planet, a global cataclysm at some point in the past has forced most of its inhabitants to live in floating cities in the sky^[5]. It currently has no shard.^[6][7] It is possible that this was the original home of humans in the Greater Roshar system, from which they were driven to Roshar after the use of the Dawnshards and/or Surgebinding destroyed their original home.

Source: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ashyn 

I think maybe I should take my UFO conspiracy theories over into it's own thread, because they are off point in this one.  But there are a couple of  relevant the topic of this thread, namely, how surges destroy planets:

1. After the cataclysm, "Ashyn is mostly barren, with a few fertile patches" which suggests that the planet is more or less physically intact, and that the cataclysm predominantly affected the biosphere;
2. The fact that SD will feature a disease-based magic, not surgebinding, implying that surges are no-longer used on the planet, most likely because Odium and his spren are no longer present.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Varion

[.S.A.M.K.M]

My pet theory is they damaged their old home by mis using the dawn shards, possibly even creating the modern form of the nine. They just seem do unbalanced individually that something had to have happened to force this on them.

[TheMediocreMind]

I wonder if Silence Divine could be set on Ashyn post-exodus of humans to Roshar. Seems like a good explanation for the absence of Odium and surge-binding. As far as I know we don't know anything about whether or not some of humans remained on Ashyn after the 'Voidbringer exodus'.

[ZacC]

A few things don't seem chronologically correct to me.

First: Human's move to Roshar after ruining their home.

Next: The Desolations begin.

Then: Spren start imitating the Heralds surgebinding abilities through the Nahel Bond.

 I'm not sure when the Herald's were created in this timeline but, even if it was before the exodus, doesn't something seem off? Talenel himself recollects the Nahel Bond is relatively new albeit in his addled. If surgebinding powers are newish how did the "voidbringers" ruin their home with it millennium ago? Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Willshaping Crasher]

This post gave me a strange idea.

On 1/2/2018 at 9:03 AM, lopens_cousin said:

It seems pretty clear that this tells us how at least one form of surgebinding can mess up the physics of a planet, and if adhesion manipulates airpressure (rather than friction, for example) then accumulative perturbations in air pressure would certainly have the potential to make things wonky, planetwide.

What if, on Ashyn, it was possible to be a "Surgeborn" (having access to all 10 surges) and the entire gifting of certain surges via the honorblades was a type of control mechanism to assure only two surges were allowed for one individual?  In addition, what if the original combination (whether it was 2,3,4 etc.) which caused the cataclysm were spaced apart to assure that no one could again access them?

The story that surgebinding destroyed a planet would still propagate even though Honor had put checks in place to try to prevent a similar incident.  In addition, telling people of the danger of surges would still be wise just in case something unexpected occurred.

[Blackhoof]

3 hours ago, ZacC said:

A few things don't seem chronologically correct to me.

First: Human's move to Roshar after ruining their home.

Next: The Desolations begin.

Then: Spren start imitating the Heralds surgebinding abilities through the Nahel Bond.

 I'm not sure when the Herald's were created in this timeline but, even if it was before the exodus, doesn't something seem off? Talenel himself recollects the Nahel Bond is relatively new albeit in his addled. If surgebinding powers are newish how did the "voidbringers" ruin their home with it millennium ago? Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

A very good point, I was thinkign the exact same thing.

This, coupled with the disease-based magic system of Ashyn, leads me to think that Odium was behind the magic system of Surge-manipulation on Ashyn, and he left it when humans did. He followed humanity to Roshar (sort of) and then was trapped there in the Oathpact. The few survivors on Ashyn eventally created floating cities to live on, and expanded on their own.

[Michael Portz he/him]

Of course we do have an explicit and detailed example of messing up a planets ecology by uninformed or naive use of shardic power: Scadrial

 

[Messremb]

On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:37 PM, Varion said:

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine, yes, it's the moons I was referring to. And they are exactly the WoB's that have been kicking around in my mind for a while regarding the moons. It was the prompt about possible technology on Ashyn that sparked the leap.

Well, this idea came in a theoretical discussion that assumed Ashyn was technologically and/or realmatically advanced enough to destroy their own planet through environmental collapse. Following that assumption, it's not a stretch that they would have the motivation and ability to start a space project. 

If we are talking magically enhanced space travel, then the size of ship shouldn't be a big issue, especially an Ark ship. They'd have to be advanced enough to build it in space, but our own history shows that huge technological progress an be made in a short time with a dedicated effort. I wonder if Moore's Law holds in the Cosmere? 

EDIT:

It actually looks like there a fair amount of evidence of technological innovation on Ashyn. I forgot that the forthcoming book, Silence Divine was going to be based on Ashyn, with a magic system based on diseases, and floating cities in the sky. Obviously, we don't exactly when in the timeline SD will be set, but it's not unreasonable to assume that the exodus and the origin floating cities were in the same general era. Here's the entry on Coppermind:

I think maybe I should take my UFO conspiracy theories over into it's own thread, because they are off point in this one.  But there are a couple of  relevant the topic of this thread, namely, how surges destroy planets:

1. After the cataclysm, "Ashyn is mostly barren, with a few fertile patches" which suggests that the planet is more or less physically intact, and that the cataclysm predominantly affected the biosphere;
2. The fact that SD will feature a disease-based magic, not surgebinding, implying that surges are no-longer used on the planet, most likely because Odium and his spren are no longer present.

At first read I was pretty skeptical of this theory, but then I did some research on Phobos and learned that in the 60's, due to an error in some of the measurements of Phobos, the science advisor to Eisenhower had the following to say.

"If the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore Martian made."

Seems a very big coincidence that Peter, who minored in astronomy, would use a Moon, that was once thought to be artificially created, and hollow, to explain the moons on Roshar.

I am now a believer in the Roshar moons are spacecraft theory.  

[Fulminato he/him]

i suspect the shattering of the shattered plains share something with the destruction of the human's original planet.

and find hardly belive is by gravititional surge.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Fulminato

[Varion he/him]

2 hours ago, Messremb said:

At first read I was pretty skeptical of this theory, but then I did some research on Phobos and learned that in the 60's, due to an error in some of the measurements of Phobos, the science advisor to Eisenhower had the following to say.

"If the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore Martian made."

Seems a very big coincidence that Peter, who minored in astronomy, would use a Moon, that was once thought to be artificially created, and hollow, to explain the moons on Roshar.

I am now a believer in the Roshar moons are spacecraft theory.  

Haha! That is an awesome factoid. I never knew that. It's a pretty good lesson in checking your facts before advising the President. Glad Eisenhower didn't make a pre-emptive strike on Mars because it ...

I'm not sure I have much solid evidence for the theory, but I found a couple of other interesting tidbits.

First, the Shin call the moons The Sisters, based on the order they appear in the sky: First Sister, Second Sister and Third Sister. That doesn't really help us one way or the other, but I thought it was interesting that the people who probably have the most direct connection with the original refugees label them all female, in contrast to Vorin tradition. Of course, there could be a completely different reason for that. At the very least, it shows that there are inconsistencies between the origin stories and the moons. And we know there's something artificial about them, so where are the truths in these myths?

Second was this WoB, which addressed the theory that Urithiru was a spaceship:

Quote

Source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/260-oathbringer-newcastle-signing/#e8762

JoeST [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Urithiru a spaceship?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It is not, no, good question. I've never been asked that before. It's very Sim City, though.

JoeST [PENDING REVIEW]

It's a new theory, they're thinking, is it one of the floating cities from--

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

From Ashyn, yeah. Boy, that would be hard, it is so big. But, I suppose, magic, you know. But no, it is not...

Brandon's response isn't exactly encouraging here. He sounds genuinely surprised and didn't RAFO it at all. So unless he's being a good actor and just deflecting, then I think this pours a little cold water on the moons being spaceships theory. I'm not giving up on it, but I think it's less likely. 

It begs the question though, how did the refugees get to Roshar? I still think it's an awfully big human migration across Shadesmar. 

[Messremb]

4 minutes ago, Varion said:

Haha! That is an awesome factoid. I never knew that. It's a pretty good lesson in checking your facts before advising the President. Glad Eisenhower didn't make a pre-emptive strike on Mars because it ...

well, I only put in the first part of the quote as it was the only relevant part. the full quote is

"If the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore Martian made. The big 'if' lies in the astronomical observations; they may well be in error. Since they are based on several independent sets of measurements taken decades apart by different observers with different instruments, systematic errors may have influenced them."

I don't the WOB rule out the moons as space ships. I think the issue with Urithiru being a spaceship is 2 fold, getting it into space, then landing it without destroying the planet. If the moons were created in space, and don't land that makes them much more plausible.

[Varion he/him]

6 minutes ago, Messremb said:

well, I only put in the first part of the quote as it was the only relevant part. the full quote is

"If the satellite is indeed spiraling inward as deduced from astronomical observation, then there is little alternative to the hypothesis that it is hollow and therefore Martian made. The big 'if' lies in the astronomical observations; they may well be in error. Since they are based on several independent sets of measurements taken decades apart by different observers with different instruments, systematic errors may have influenced them."

Sigh. What a wonderful world it was when scientists were respected and encouraged to discuss their findings in the full context of their uncertainty, without it being turned against them. (Or did that never really exist?) 

13 minutes ago, Messremb said:

don't the WOB rule out the moons as space ships. I think the issue with Urithiru being a spaceship is 2 fold, getting it into space, then landing it without destroying the planet. If the moons were created in space, and don't land that makes them much more plausible.

I completely agree with this too. Though the tone from Brandon wasn't encouraging.

[Angsos]

The Heralds mutinyed 4,500 years so I assume Ashyn was wrecked sometime before that

[AliasHandler]

Quote

If the moons were created in space, and don't land that makes them much more plausible.

Generally, when building massive ships for colonization and the moving of lots of people at once, the best way to do that is to assemble them in space. Getting something of that size in and out of the atmosphere is nearly impossible. It’s much easier to transport materials and people into orbit to build it. And then transport people to the surface of the new planet a bit at a time.