[OB] Why doesn't Shallan have Plate?

[TheDoomsday he/him]

If she is one oath above Kaladin, why doesn't she have Plate?

OB confirms that Radiants get Plate at the fourth ideal. So why doesn't Shallan have some?

Just wondering.

[Guest]

Because she doesn't accept the fact, that she killed her mother, which is the Fourth Ideal she spoke, and hides behind her personalities. She's constantly relativizing, but not accepting it.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

Shallan is a weird case because of her self-denial. In addition to this, given the nature of the Lightweavers, it is often difficult to determine what counts as a Truth for the purpose of advancement. She already had her blade (3rd Ideal) when she was a young child, and we've seen her offer at least one more after that when she admitted she killed her father. She already had her blade at this point as she had thought about using it and recoiled from that thought. Clearly there are other conditions that need to be met for the Lightweavers, possibly accepting the truths more intrinsically than just giving them voice. It's also possible with her repressed memories that she is "rediscovering" her ideals already sworn instead of finding new ones and advancing. We simply don't have enough data on what is necessary for a Lightweaver's advancement to determine anything from Shallan's situation.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

It's implied she does, she's just in denial about it. At the battle of Theylan City. 

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

And later

Quote

“Here,” Radiant said, tired, stumbling to her feet. She was the one Jasnah could feel. She blinked away tears. “Are you … real?”

 

[Guest]

Could also just be a Lightweave.

[Isilel]

Just because the Windrunners get  Plate with the 4th Ideal doesn't mean that every other Order does too. IMHO, it is quite likely that some less combat-oriented Orders get it only at the highest level, while others - such as Stonewards, say, get theirs earlier, at the 3rd Ideal. Also, isn't there a WoB that other spren are more flexible than honorspren about manifesting as a Blade, too? Particularly in extreme circumstances? So, child Shallan didn't need to be at the 3rd Ideal to do so. Additionally, has it been clearly stated that the number of Truths a Lightweaver has to speak to progress is the same as the number of Ideals? Can't their developement be more incremental, with more Truths being needed than 4?  

[Yata he/him]

If Lightweavers get the Plate at the Fourth Oath, she probably could manifest a Plate but She never had to.

But as other said, we don't know if the LW unlock the Plate at that point

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

It's implied she does, she's just in denial about it. At the battle of Theylan City. 

Quote

Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.

And later

Quote

“Here,” Radiant said, tired, stumbling to her feet. She was the one Jasnah could feel. She blinked away tears. “Are you … real?”

 

I agree with this.  My perspective is: Radiant is the persona who can accept her truth about killing her mother and thus manifest the plate.  maskShallan can't accept her truth and doesn't have access to plate (or even awareness that she can have it.)  The interesting one would be Veil, as she doesn't have a hangup (I don't think?) about her matricide, but she's also not "proper" enough to be a Knight Radiant (in Shallan's opinion), so maybe Shallan's subconscious will not give Veil plate.  I was hoping OB would be when we would learn about plate, but that's obviously being pushed back, as both Dalinar and Kaladin are set for 4th oath next book (WR's get plate for sure at 4th oath, we'll see for BS) and Shallan will hopefully accept her truth and be fully level 4.

[Govir]

3 hours ago, killersquirrel59 said:

She already had her blade (3rd Ideal) when she was a young child, and we've seen her offer at least one more after that when she admitted she killed her father

I disagree that "I killed my father" was one of her Truths. At no point do I get the impression that Shallan doesn't acknowledge she killed her father. *We* don't know it right away, but Shallan does. I personally believe we've only seen her say one Truth, "I killed my mother." which elevated her to the 4th Ideal (1. Life before Death; 2. Something; 3. Something; 4. I killed my mother.)

Prior to that in the books, she was always at the 3rd ideal. It's not that she couldn't do a lot of things, it's that she *chose* not to, e.g. deep down she knew she could summon Pattern in less than 10 heartbeats, but she deluded herself into applying the restriction so she could lie to herself that it was just a normal Shardblade (because doing otherwise would make her face the fact that she killed her mother). I believe this caused a regression of her ideals (much like when Kaladin had his issue with Syl) but near the end of WoR, she admitted that her blade was not like others, thus fully unlocking her 3rd Ideal powers. Then, later in WoR, Pattern forces her to admit she killed her mother, progressing to the 4th Ideal.

A note on her Shardplate: It's possible that a Lightweaver's Shardplate *is* a Lightweaving, given substance via Soulcasting. Similar to how Shallan is learning to give her other illusions substance. Mastering this trick may be what unlocks Shardplate for her.

[Bort he/him]

She admits to killing her father as a truth in Way of Kings.

1. Life Before Death... etc.

2. "I am terrified." (Admittedly, this one is probably not one of her ideals, but it is the truth she used when she first visited Shadesmar, and when she first properly interacts with Pattern in WoK).

3. "I killed my father." (Said when proving to Jasnah that she can access Shadesmar).

4. "I killed my mother, and let my father take the blame." (End of WoR).

Also, don't forget that the oaths, and what they represent, are down to the perception of the spren. Shallan was living a lie, in that her and her family were all pretending her father was still alive, and that would make "I killed my father," a powerful truth.

Also, I suspect that Shallan already has her Plate, although as was mentioned by someone else earlier, she can currently only access it as Radiant, since Radiant is the one that has accepted the truths that Shallan is still working on.

[Fulminato he/him]

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

Because she doesn't accept the fact, that she killed her mother, which is the Fourth Ideal she spoke, and hides behind her personalities. She's constantly relativizing, but not accepting it.

but shallan in WoR is unable to make sound with her illusions. in oathbringer she had done for sure in the thaylenah city battle. this is an advancement, she had spoke the world, but had trouble with it, no much difference from the kaladin's struggle in WoR between his oath to protect and the vengeance over amaram/roshone/elhokar. she need to overcome the pain for progress more, but the truth is the advancement.

2 hours ago, Bort said:

She admits to killing her father as a truth in Way of Kings.

1. Life Before Death... etc.

2. "I am terrified." (Admittedly, this one is probably not one of her ideals, but it is the truth she used when she first visited Shadesmar, and when she first properly interacts with Pattern in WoK).

3. "I killed my father." (Said when proving to Jasnah that she can access Shadesmar).

4. "I killed my mother, and let my father take the blame." (End of WoR).

Also, don't forget that the oaths, and what they represent, are down to the perception of the spren. Shallan was living a lie, in that her and her family were all pretending her father was still alive, and that would make "I killed my father," a powerful truth.

Also, I suspect that Shallan already has her Plate, although as was mentioned by someone else earlier, she can currently only access it as Radiant, since Radiant is the one that has accepted the truths that Shallan is still working on.

there is another truth she accept near the end of WoR, the truth of her shardblade being different from the 'normal' other

Adolin obeyed, scrambling forward, summoning his Shardblade. He rammed it into the slot, which again flowed to fit the weapon. Nothing happened. “It’s not working,” Adolin shouted. Only one answer. Shallan grabbed the hilt of his sword and whipped it out—ignoring the scream in her mind that came from touching it—then tossed it aside. Adolin’s sword vanished to mist. A deep truth. “There is something wrong with your Blade, and with all Blades.” She hesitated for just a second. “All but mine. Pattern!”

WoR Chapter 86 "Patterns of Light"

because early in the book

“I’m sorry,” Tyn said, voice cold. “I’m going to have to tie this up tight. In a way, I’m proud of you. You fooled me. You’d have been good at this.” Calm, Shallan told herself. Be calm! Ten heartbeats. But for her, it didn’t have to be ten, did it? No. It must be. Time, I need time!

WoR Chapter 34 "Blossoms and Cake"

Edited January 2, 2018 by Fulminato

[Bort he/him]

That is probably the truth that takes the place of my #2 truth, so it would look like...

1. Life before death...

2. "I killed my father."

3. "Your Blades are all broken."

4. "I killed my mother."

That said, before Way of Kings started, Shallan had already reached at least the third truth, so these truths are sort of more like relearning what she knew before, rather than swearing a new ideal, unlike "I killed my mother."

[Yata he/him]

@Bort i am sorry but you are wrong.

The Truths are:

- I am scared

- I killed dad

- I killed mum

You May notice how her first Soulcasting followed her first Truth (I am scared) and Pattern itself stated It was the Truth She Need to performe the task.

Later She used the "kill dad" One to gain a greater Soulcast's profency (I believe It was in the host) and from there She probably gained again the use of he Blade.

Lastly She was forced ti admit her mum's killing by Pattern

 

[Fulminato he/him]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Bort i am sorry but you are wrong.

The Truths are:

- I am scared

- I killed dad

- I killed mum

You May notice how her first Soulcasting followed her first Truth (I am scared) and Pattern itself stated It was the Truth She Need to performe the task.

Later She used the "kill dad" One to gain a greater Soulcast's profency (I believe It was in the host) and from there She probably gained again the use of he Blade.

Lastly She was forced ti admit her mum's killing by Pattern

 

we realy know a lightweaver need to speak exactly four truth? because i find very hard to think any lightweaver of any time had just four hidden lie.

[TheDoomsday he/him]

I assumed that 'I killed my father" was a truth, but "I am terrified" wasn't. I personally think its safe to assume that Shallan got her blade early, possible even at the first ideal, but maybe that's just me.

I'm starting to realise just how varied the orders were in regards to oaths. I thought the Windrunner system was the standard, with a few unique ones like the Lightweavers, but it seems safe to say that all orders are completely different in how the approach the oaths, such as Skybreakers being able to use Surges before bonding a spren.

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, Fulminato said:

we realy know a lightweaver need to speak exactly four truth? because i find very hard to think any lightweaver of any time had just four hidden lie.

The Truths work as Oath so yeah, they need 4 truths to reach the Full Radiancy.

1 hour ago, TheDoomsday said:

I assumed that 'I killed my father" was a truth, but "I am terrified" wasn't. I personally think its safe to assume that Shallan got her blade early, possible even at the first ideal, but maybe that's just me.

Chibi Shallan progressed a lot into Radiancy. She spoke Truths and ecc. Then the Mother-death happened and for the trauma, Shallan almost broke the Bond, Pattern was forced to flee into the CR and their Bond eroded a lot. In current events Shallan have mostly to start from the scratches again.

She honestly believe to have a Blade, but she had never the chance to fully prove and her first PatternBlade's summon in the current time is after she spoke her second Truth (third Oath)...Coincidentally the Oath where most of the Orders we saw get their Blade

Edited January 2, 2018 by Yata

[Govir]

3 hours ago, TheDoomsday said:

such as Skybreakers being able to use Surges before bonding a spren.

This bothered me for a bit too, until I realized it's just that they are Squires.

The Skybreaker's Oaths definitely seem different than the others. It is very structured.

• Ideal 1 - No powers granted, basically a recruit.
• Ideal 2 - Mentored by a higher Skybreaker, becoming their Squire (which allows access to Gravitation)
• Ideal 3 - Attract a spren and swear to a "cause" (Szeth is here, and swore to Dalinar). Allows access to Division.
• Ideal 4 - Personal Crusade (probably literally in Szeth's case. Shinovar will burn)
• Ideal 5 - I am the Law!

Coppermind.net's explanation of Skybreaker Oaths

Edited January 2, 2018 by Govir

[Fulminato he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

The Truths work as Oath so yeah, they need 4 truths to reach the Full Radiancy.

this is a pure guessing, no proof attached

 

5 minutes ago, Govir said:

This bothered me for a bit too, until I realized it's just that they are Squires.

The Skybreaker's Oaths definitely seem different than the others. It is very structured.

• Ideal 1 - No powers granted, basically a recruit.
• Ideal 2 - Mentored by a higher Skybreaker, becoming their Squire (which allows access to at least the flying Lashings [brain fart on official name])
• Ideal 3 - Attract a spren and swear to a "cause" (Szeth is here, and swore to Dalinar). Allows access to Division.
• Ideal 4 - Personal Crusade (probably literally in Szeth's case. Shinovar will burn)
• Ideal 5 - I am the Law!

this is the path squire -> radiant, like teft o lopen, i think if a high spren starting to bond someone he should be able to drew stormlight  after the first oath.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Fulminato

[Govir]

2 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

this is the path squire -> radiant, like teft o lopen, i think if a high spren starting to bond someone he should be able to drew stormlight  after the first oath.

Fair, but we've only seen Skybreakers who have gone through this path. I think it's presented in such a way as to imply all Skybreakers will do this. I see them as not only law abiding, but process abiding as well. No idea what you'd do to attract a Highspren "naturally."

[digitalbusker he/him]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

The Truths work as Oath so yeah, they need 4 truths to reach the Full Radiancy.

 

31 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

this is a pure guessing, no proof attached

Which part? The fact that Lighweavers speak Truths instead of swearing Oaths (past the first) is well established, both in text (Pattern mostly, but also the epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance) and via WoB. The notion that they get their Plate at Ideal 4 is more speculative.

[Yata he/him]

6 hours ago, Fulminato said:

this is a pure guessing, no proof attached

Like @digitalbusker said, the books explicity says the Lightweaver's Truths are Oaths analogue and every Radiant need to swear fifth Oaths for become Full Radiant.... The implication is the Lightweavers need Four Truths (because the first step is the Radiancy Oath shared among the Radiants)

[Bort he/him]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Like @digitalbusker said, the books explicity says the Lightweaver's Truths are Oaths analogue and every Radiant need to swear fifth Oaths for become Full Radiant.... The implication is the Lightweavers need Four Truths (because the first step is the Radiancy Oath shared among the Radiants)

And how many times have the books lied to us? Just because someone in the books believes it to be true, doesn't mean it is.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Bort said:

And how many times have the books lied to us? Just because someone in the books believes it to be true, doesn't mean it is.

If you deny the proofs we have, there is no base for discussions.

Sure you could believe everything and everyone lie. But I took Pattern's words as trustful.

The orders have shared ground, the Oaths were forced Upon the Surgebinders. The Truths have a differents formulations but they fully works as Oaths.

You could propose another explaination but It has at least to fit better the evidences than the actual one

[Fulminato he/him]

8 hours ago, Yata said:

If you deny the proofs we have, there is no base for discussions.

Sure you could believe everything and everyone lie. But I took Pattern's words as trustful.

The orders have shared ground, the Oaths were forced Upon the Surgebinders. The Truths have a differents formulations but they fully works as Oaths.

You could propose another explaination but It has at least to fit better the evidences than the actual one

phrasing is important.

we know a lightwaver progression is trough selfawareness, speaking the truth of himself. but i don't find even the hint of the number of that truth, can be four, but can be more or less based the life of the lightweaver, i suppose.

“Is it true?” Shallan asked, tilting her head all the way back, looking up the side of the enormous tower toward the blue sky high above. “Am I one of them?”
“Mmm . . .” Pattern said from her skirt. “Almost you are. Still a few Words to say.”
“What kind of words? An oath?”
“Lightweavers make no oaths beyond the first,” Pattern said. “You must speak truths.”

WoR Chapter 87 "the riddens"

[Kaleid]

Is there anything inworld that suggests that all the radiant orders get their blades and plates at the same ideal?