[OB] Death Rattle analysis

[.S.A.M.K.M]

I wonder if renarin gets his visions if he is in the presence or near those that are dying, so his visions could be fueled by others death spark.

[Subvisual Haze]

Renarin's vision's are incredibly bizarre.  I missed this my first time through:

Quote

[Renarin] had learned to read so he could understand the numbers and words that appeared under some of the images.

Not only is Renarin seeing pictures of future events, but some of those pictures have annotations and dates under them!  What in the world?  Is Sja-Anat adding notes for him?

[Subvisual Haze]

I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced Death Rattles are always visions of the future.  They allow glimpses into the spiritual realm (when the soul is disintegrating at death), and the spiritual realm is usually the realm used to predict the future due to its timeless nature.  Said timeless nature of the spiritual realm could also make some of the Death Rattles references to the past or present rather than the future though?

For example, I think some of the Death Rattles related to natural destruction ("They break the land itself!"), which we have been assuming are future glimpses of the Everstorm, may in fact be past recollections of the surgebinding driven apocalyptic event on Ashyn.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced Death Rattles are always visions of the future.  They allow glimpses into the spiritual realm (when the soul is disintegrating at death), and the spiritual realm is usually the realm used to predict the future due to its timeless nature.  Said timeless nature of the spiritual realm could also make some of the Death Rattles references to the past or present rather than the future though?

Either way, trying to interpret the death rattles as visions of the future or visions of the past, we are seeing through the glass darkly. The death rattles are by design vaguely specific, coded in a strange apocalyptic symbolism that is similar in tone to the book of Revelation. The events in the days before recorded history are referred to as the shadow days and the future is a shattering window decomposing into smaller and harder to perceive possibilities the farther forward you look. Behind and ahead the world is shrouded in mysteries and filled with secrets.

I am OK with the idea that the rattles could be explaining some of the secrets from the past, but Taravangian's interpretation from the second desk drawer heavily implies that they are forward looking visions. I personally love prophecies in science fiction and fantasy, so I prefer to view them as prophetic in nature because it's fun to try and put the pieces together and see if you can figure out a coming event or see in retrospect how they applied to an event that they pre-dated. 

[Subvisual Haze]

"And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder
One of the four beasts saying,
'Come and see.' and I saw, and behold a white horse"

- Subject was a darkeyed bard in black costume in his 7th decade.  Sample is of particular note for being pretty awesome.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

"And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder
One of the four beasts saying,
'Come and see.' and I saw, and behold a white horse"

- Subject was a darkeyed bard in black costume in his 7th decade.  Sample is of particular note for being pretty awesome.

Pip pip, that my friend is RAD!

[Grytorm]

About the idea that Odium employs Moelach to gather prophecies of use to him. That makes sense to me, but based on some of the discussion I have an idea for why he does this. He is doing it to see around his blind spots. If his power of prophecy is limited in some way be his nature then by making thousands of mortals make their own small prophecies he can see things he might otherwise miss.

Edit: Glad I checked that I had already posted here. If we go by the colored light thing Odium is using the Death Rattles to try and see things in another light. While each Rattle wont tell him much with thousands he can double check his predictions and see if something big is going on in his blindspots.

Also for Moeloch and locstion. It could be like Moeloch is a spider with a thousand reaching legs. Many are short and can't stray far from the maim body. Others are long and can reach across the world. But the long ones have much more area to cover and cannot pick up all deaths in an area.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Grytorm

[SecondPlace he/him]

The most interesting death rattles to me are 17 and 35.

17. “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

35. “So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ”

I think that they are connected to a climatic event sometime in the future where the only way to stop Odium is to kill someone, but because of the first ideal of the knights radiant they characters will not do it, which will allow Odium to win.

[Hen she/her]

On 12/30/2017 at 11:56 AM, Brgst13 said:

       12. “I'm standing over the body of a brother. I'm weeping. Is that his blood or mine? What have we done? ”

 

I think this one might be about Kaladin and Oroden? But that’s a little obvious, so maybe two of the bridgemen. OR it’s Adolin standing over Kaladin, and him dying motivates Adolin to bring Maya back and bond with her? The huge flash of storm light required to do that might heal Kaladin? That might be cool though it’s a .000000001% chance of happening.

[PiedPiper she/her]

What if, instead of Death Rattle 12 being from the perspective of a human, they're Odium's words in his remorse after killing Honor (who could be like a brother to him, since both are Shards), even though he thought he was doing the right thing? Moelach (one of the Unmade, a Splinter of Odium) is the source of the Rattles, so it's not impossible that Odium spoke through him. This would also explain why Rattle 12 is one from the past (if my theory is right) even though Moelach is associated with precognition and visions of the future; Odium would not be so limited.

Edited May 17, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Hen she/her]

20 hours ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

What if, instead of Death Rattle 12 being from the perspective of a human, they're Odium's words in his remorse after killing Honor (who could be like a brother to him, since both are Shards), even though he thought he was doing the right thing? Moelach (one of the Unmade, a Splinter of Odium) is the source of the Rattles, so it's not impossible that Odium spoke through him. This would also explain why Rattle 12 is one from the past (if my theory is right) even though Moelach is associated with precognition and visions of the future; Odium would not be so limited.

This actually sounds very probable. As long as we are on the topic of past deaths, It might be about Adonalsim, and how the original 16 Killed him. Reference to "What have We done?" 

[PiedPiper she/her]

I think you're right in pointing out the we -- I forgot to take that part into account. That makes me wonder, regarding my theory, if it's completely untrue or if Odium worked with someone (maybe the Listeners' gods).

2 hours ago, Hentient said:

This actually sounds very probable. As long as we are on the topic of past deaths, It might be about Adonalsim, and how the original 16 Killed him. Reference to "What have We done?" 

I think you present a really interesting idea, and that one theory is just as likely as the other. In reference to the "body of a brother" part, though, it leaves one to wonder: who could have viewed him- or herself as Adonalsium's brother? If your theory is the correct one, the answer to that question could be a very important piece in Cosmere history.

Edited May 18, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Hen she/her]

Thanks! As to who could have viewed him as a brother? Though it could have been any of the original 16 shards, I don't think it would have been them. It seems more likely that it would have been Hoid or Frost (Was Frost present when Adonalsim died? I don't remember) And that's the reason Hoid didn't take a shard, on top of the fact that he probably didn't want the effects the shards had on their vessels. He didn't feel like he deserved it, kind of like how Kaladin doesn't think he deserves to live while everyone else dies. It seems like that's something Brandon might do. 

As to your theory, I personally think it holds more merit. Is there cannon to when Odium killed Honor? if there is then feel free to ignore this, but what if it was before Rayse was completely controlled by Odium, at a point where he wanted to kill Tanavast, but still knew deep down it was wrong, If that's true, (and someone helped him- maybe one of his unmade?) then it seems likely that Rayse would say something like that. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

On your theory:

I think Hoid and Frost are as good a guess as any as to who could have viewed Adonalsium as a brother. The Coppermind says that Frost is even older than Hoid. The Second Letter also discusses this; I've attached a quote that I think is important:

Quote

Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain.

The fact that he used the phrase "our interference" signifies to me that he played a role in the Shattering of Adonalsium, and the part about bringing nothing but pain certainly would fit with the text in epigraph 12. I would have been convinced that your theory is more likely but for one problem: I have no idea how Hoid of Frost (or another, more ancient being; the Coppermind has specified that they think there are older ones, although they have not been canonized) would have gotten their text into one of the Death Rattles. It's entirely possible that we're missing some huge, important connection, though, so I'll suspend my disbelief until we know more about (as Brandon has put it) the "underpinnings of the Cosmere".

On a different note, I am of complete agreement that it would be in character for Brandon to give Hoid or some other ancient creature PTSD from the shattering and all their mistakes. Also, as per WoB in one of his signing live streams, "Hoid needs a good kick in the shins."

On my theory:

I just looked it up on the Coppermind, and there is no definitive canonical knowledge of when Odium killed Honor -- all we know is that it was after Aharietiam.

Also from the Coppermind -- it's not known exactly when Rayse decided to go on his murder spree and kill all his counterparts, nor whether this was before or after he was fully consumed by Odium (although it's said that he chose Odium to be his Shard in the first place because he believed that it matched him well).

In addition, when Odium finally appears to Dalinar in one of his visions in Oathbringer, he does mention that he views his actions as necessary but regrettable, because he thinks that it would be best for the Cosmere if her alone ruled. (I've edited the quote to be in first person, because the way Odium actually says it. it's directed at Dalinar, in the second person.)

Quote

I found myself in a conflict with someone respect... killed a man because I had to, even if -- in a better world -- he shouldn't deserve it.

How much can we trust that statement? No idea. It's Odium.

Edited May 19, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Aminar]

7 hours ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

On your theory:

I think Hoid and Frost are as good a guess as any as to who could have viewed Adonalsium as a brother. The Coppermind says that Frost is even older than Hoid. The Second Letter also discusses this; I've attached a quote that I think is important:

The fact that he used the phrase "our interference" signifies to me that he played a role in the Shattering of Adonalsium, and the part about bringing nothing but pain certainly would fit with the text in epigraph 12. I would have been convinced that your theory is more likely but for one problem: I have no idea how Hoid of Frost (or another, more ancient being; the Coppermind has specified that they think there are older ones, although they have not been canonized) would have gotten their text into one of the Death Rattles. It's entirely possible that we're missing some huge, important connection, though, so I'll suspend my disbelief until we know more about (as Brandon has put it) the "underpinnings of the Cosmere".

On a different note, I am of complete agreement that it would be in character for Brandon to give Hoid or some other ancient creature PTSD from the shattering and all their mistakes. Also, as per WoB in one of his signing live streams, "Hoid needs a good kick in the shins."

On my theory:

I just looked it up on the Coppermind, and there is no definitive canonical knowledge of when Odium killed Honor -- all we know is that it was after Aharietiam.

Also from the Coppermind -- it's not known exactly when Rayse decided to go on his murder spree and kill all his counterparts, nor whether this was before or after he was fully consumed by Odium (although it's said that he chose Odium to be his Shard in the first place because he believed that it matched him well).

In addition, when Odium finally appears to Dalinar in one of his visions in Oathbringer, he does mention that he views his actions as necessary but regrettable, because he thinks that it would be best for the Cosmere if her alone ruled. (I've edited the quote to be in first person, because the way Odium actually says it. it's directed at Dalinar, in the second person.)

How much can we trust that statement? No idea. It's Odium.

I don't think he's been consumed by Odium. Odium is the primary facet Rayse seems to have brought with him. The Shard itself is Passion. But Rayse feels hate so much more strongly than other emotions that he's become the embodiment of it. Passion is likely the least corrupting of the Shards (in the sense that the bearers personality would be amplified by it rather than molded because our Passion is in many ways who we are) but the easiest to misuse because it dictates are, Do as you feel. 

[Hen she/her]

I don't know if the death rattles work like this, but Moelach is a splinter of odium, right? so he is essentially part of the vessel, or at least controlled by Rayse, so anything Rayse has experienced is essentially fair game for death rattles. If that's true, then #12 could have been from Hoid, because Rayse would have been there to witness Hoid saying that after they killed Adonalsium. This is assuming that everything I've said is correct with isn't probable, but still fun to think about. 

 

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

I don't think he's been consumed by Odium. Odium is the primary facet Rayse seems to have brought with him. The Shard itself is Passion. But Rayse feels hate so much more strongly than other emotions that he's become the embodiment of it. Passion is likely the least corrupting of the Shards (in the sense that the bearers personality would be amplified by it rather than molded because our Passion is in many ways who we are) but the easiest to misuse because it dictates are, Do as you feel. 

I don't think Odium is Passion. To me that feels to close to ambition for them to be separate shards, although Odium does say:

"I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of the spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men."

When he's talking to Dalinar, so you might be correct. In any case, I do think that Rayse regrets killing Tanavast, to a point that it pained I'm deeply when he did it. 

[Aminar]

33 minutes ago, Hentient said:

I don't know if the death rattles work like this, but Moelach is a splinter of odium, right? so he is essentially part of the vessel, or at least controlled by Rayse, so anything Rayse has experienced is essentially fair game for death rattles. If that's true, then #12 could have been from Hoid, because Rayse would have been there to witness Hoid saying that after they killed Adonalsium. This is assuming that everything I've said is correct with isn't probable, but still fun to think about. 

 

I don't think Odium is Passion. To me that feels to close to ambition for them to be separate shards, although Odium does say:

"I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of the spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men."

When he's talking to Dalinar, so you might be correct. In any case, I do think that Rayse regrets killing Tanavast, to a point that it pained I'm deeply when he did it. 

It makes sense to me. Odium never felt like an appropriate Shard name to begin with and there were comments in one of the letters about ATI being a pretty nice guy and Rayse just not being one. So him saying he was Passion and all the talk about the Passions really clicked for me. I don't see Ambition and Passion as the same thing. Both are forms of motivation, but Ambition has always had more of a heartless unempathetic selfish connotation while Passion is very individual. It's malleable. And if we're going to see someone else take over Odium's Shard it wouldn't surprise me to have that person become a different Passion. Dalinar becoming Duty or the like. (That and I like the idea that one of the Shards is Adonalasium's free will of sorts. And that Shard being the most dangerous and malleable makes sense.) 

He may regret killing Tanavast, but there are a lot of people that kill out of amplified emotions and regret it later. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

2 hours ago, Aminar said:

there are a lot of people that kill out of amplified emotions and regret it later. 

This is true, of course -- but who else's words would become Death Rattles?

3 hours ago, Hentient said:

#12 could have been from Hoid, because Rayse would have been there to witness Hoid saying that after they killed Adonalsium.

I can see how that would work, but at the same time, why would Rayse put Hoid's words in the Death Rattles? Maybe it's because he wants to emphasize the Cosmere's need for one divine leader, and he's doing this by illustrating the regret that followed the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Current consensus as to which theory is more probable: no storming clue. It could be one we haven't even thought of.

As for Odium actually being the Shard of Passion, I can see your argument, especially considering Odium's words in his first exchange with Dalinar in OB, but on the other hand, both the Coppermind and WoB identify the Shard as Odium (it is possible, though, that Brandon is keeping this one up his sleeve for now -- you never know). Regardless, I don't think it matters much when or if Rayse was consumed by Odium (though it was strongly implied that this happened in the First and Second Letters); he could have killed Tanavast before or after this event and still felt remorse about it, his feelings making their way into a Death Rattle.

[Aminar]

13 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

This is true, of course -- but who else's words would become Death Rattles?

I can see how that would work, but at the same time, why would Rayse put Hoid's words in the Death Rattles? Maybe it's because he wants to emphasize the Cosmere's need for one divine leader, and he's doing this by illustrating the regret that followed the Shattering of Adonalsium.

Current consensus as to which theory is more probable: no storming clue. It could be one we haven't even thought of.

As for Odium actually being the Shard of Passion, I can see your argument, especially considering Odium's words in his first exchange with Dalinar in OB, but on the other hand, both the Coppermind and WoB identify the Shard as Odium (it is possible, though, that Brandon is keeping this one up his sleeve for now -- you never know). Regardless, I don't think it matters much when or if Rayse was consumed by Odium (though it was strongly implied that this happened in the First and Second Letters); he could have killed Tanavast before or after this event and still felt remorse about it, his feelings making their way into a Death Rattle.

I fully buy that Rayse with the Passion Shard is Odium. That's the name he's been given. I don't think the letter holders understand everything either and the Coppermind is only as accurate as we are and seems to editorialize the whole Odium vs Passion thing pretty hard. I figure if anybody is going to define what a Shard represents it's the guy holding it and Passion makes a lot more sense.

As for whose words would come from a Death Rattle. I think they're like a mid-death vision, often from a third person PoV but some from observations being in others heads and hearing their thoughts. One could have been in Odiums head or someone else's. I don't see them as particularly directed. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

5 minutes ago, Aminar said:

One could have been in Odiums head or someone else's. I don't see them as particularly directed. 

It's already known that the Death Rattles come from Moelach, one of Odium's unmade -- therefore, it's highly unlikely that any of the death rattles don't involve Odium. Our theories stem subsequently from this fact, already established by the Diagram, from which we get snippets in the WoR part 5 chapter epigraphs.

Edited May 19, 2020 by PiedPeterPiper

[Aminar]

4 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

It's already known that the Death Rattles come from Moelach, one of Odium's unmade -- therefore, it's highly unlikely that any of the death rattles don't involve Odium. Our theories stem subsequently from this fact, already established by the Diagram, from which we get snippets in the WoR part 5 chapter epigraphs.

I get where they come from. But Moelach seems to be one of the unintelligent beings. Odium doesn't seem to have constant direct control over the Unmade. He might be able to direct them, but Moelach seems to be doing some kind of connection forming between a dying person and a vision of another time. And largely at random. I'm sure there will be a reveal on how exactly the unmade works, but I doubt its going to be, He was a hole into Odium's PoV.

[PiedPiper she/her]

Maybe not -- but we have no more proof that the two theories aren't true than proof that they are. Until we get more information on the workings of the Death Rattles and the Unmade, we have no idea how far off we are.

[Aminar]

24 minutes ago, PiedPeterPiper said:

Maybe not -- but we have no more proof that the two theories aren't true than proof that they are. Until we get more information on the workings of the Death Rattles and the Unmade, we have no idea how far off we are.

We can surmise that if an Unmade can rebel he doesn't have absolute control. And if he is choosing the visions it's pretty interesting because we know his fortellings have been unreliable in the past. Renarin was sort of tapped into them and he saw Dalinar falling and Jasnah killing Renarin, neither one of which happened thanks to what appears to be a tendency to assume the worst in people. I don't know quite how to summarize the whole thing, but enough things don't seem to line up with Moeloch being guided or the death rattles being intentional. The unmade seem to hunger for something they've lost and their actions follow that. They're defined by a lack and act to to try to fill that lack. but how they do so doesn't seem overly directable. Just a big AoE alteration of the world that Odium tries to direct to where it will cause chaos or where feeds it best. 

[Hen she/her]

I agree that not all of the death rattles are specifically sent by odium, too many of them just don’t seem like something that would further his agenda. Lots of them seem to come from knights Radient or common people that wouldn’t interest him, Although we don’t know everything so I’m probably wrong. But take 11 for example, assuming the “broken one” is talking about odium, do we really thing odium would call himself broken? little things like that just make it unlikely that odium sends all of the death rattles. 
However, I don’t think Moeloch would actively rebel against odium, as he is an unmade that is technically part of odiums power. I think that the death rattles are simply something that happens, not something that Moelach picks and chooses. Though again, I’m probably wrong. 
At this point it could be either of the two theories, or neither, something that we don’t even know to start theorizing about. 

[PiedPiper she/her]

39 minutes ago, Hentient said:

However, I don’t think Moeloch would actively rebel against odium, as he is an unmade that is technically part of odiums power. I think that the death rattles are simply something that happens, not something that Moelach picks and chooses. Though again, I’m probably wrong. 

I think it could be that Odium is unconsciously influencing Moelach in sending many of the Death Rattles -- like he's accidentally projecting his thoughts.