theory [OB] Adolin and Shallan will not last

[MonsterMetroid]

As the title says I believe that Shallan and Adolin will get divorced let me explain.

First, I believe that Veil contains the most truthful version of who Shallan really is, I go into much greater detail in this linked post below so feel free to check my logic there.

And we know who Veil prefers romantically and what she thinks of Adolin.  

Next we have this WoB:

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source

Questioner

Is Adolin and Shallan going to get together, or will Kaladin and Shallan?

Brandon Sanderson

That is quite the question. I will eventually answer that, but you are getting Read-and-Find-Outed. It is intentionally a bit of a mimicry of something else that happened in the past.

Now this was Pre-Oatherbringer but I still think this is relevant because what do you think this is mimicking? I propose that this situation is mimicking the other Triangle, Gavilar-Navani-Dalinar. And we do know how that one ended. Now I dont see Adolin dying and I am NOT saying that Kaladin will end up with Shallan. What I am saying that it would open up a lot of things storywise.

Next we have almost every other kind of relationship you can imagine: Dalinar and Navani widowed and remarried, Sebarial and Palona not married, and a mentions of a Gay romance. Brandon usually likes the full set of these things I feel.

And Lastly the marriage felt really rushed, it felt hasty and we didn't even get to see it! Maybe I'm reading too much into this but my gut tells me there is something there.

Some of the issues divorce would bring up to the series: 

1. More problems with the Vorin Church. I'm not sure how they view divorce but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they aren't fans of it and I think Brandon with those sons of honor is looking to explore the Vorin Church more as an organization.

2. Broken Oaths and Syl. IF Shallan did try to pursue Kaladin, or vice versa, after a divorce I don't think Syl would be as up for it as she originally was since she is honor spren, so that added dynamic would add a lot of interest and tension.

3. Adolin broken. People want Adolin Prince Charming to be more fleshed out and interesting. Well with the storm coming his way for Sadeas murder and a Painful Divorce I think they may get what they wish for.

These are all conflicts that would give brandon a TON to write about and add strength to the future books.

[Rainier]

39 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

2. Broken Oaths and Syl. IF Shallan did try to pursue Kaladin, or vice versa, after a divorce I don't think Syl would be as up for it as she originally was since she is honor spren, so that added dynamic would add a lot of interest and tension.

This is my favorite dead horse to beat, so here goes.

Shallan, as a Lightweaver, is in the absolute best position to break her oaths and renege on her promises. Szeth would never be able to get away with this, nor Dalinar or Kaladin, but the Cryptics are not like other spren. They are more liberal in their interpretation of the 'oaths' and thus Shallan is not bound as tightly as other Radiants might be.

From the in-world Words of Radiance:

Spoiler

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain."

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the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness

So as long as Shallan is speaking truths as an approach to self-awareness, I don't see why a Crypic would care if she's getting divorced. To Pattern, it would just be another powerful lie.

And speaking of powerful lies, what do we know about Shallan and lying? Who warned her about what happens to women who believe their lies? She's been warned that all good con women (which she absolutely still is) meet the same fate: they start to believe their lies and can't jump ship when the time is right. This is what is happening to Shallan; she's starting to believe her own lies. It might take a while for the other shoe to drop, but if she's not ready to get out ahead of time, she'll meet the same fate as Tyn. 

That, I think, is the surest sign that this marriage will go wrong. Tyn told Shallan what would happen, the advice was disregarded, and now we'll get to see the consequences. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

First, I believe that Veil contains the most truthful version of who Shallan really is, I go into much greater detail in this linked post below so feel free to check my logic there.

I agree. As you know.

2 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Dalinar and Navani widowed and remarried, Sebarial and Palona not married, and a mentions of a Gay romance. Brandon usually likes the full set of these things I feel.

I initially thought, that a divorce was not possible, because, well, Brandon has never written something like it yet. I didn't necessarily lean on belief, because while I know, that Brandon is a very religious person, I don't think, that he is unwilling to get out of his comfort zone. Your examples testify to that. I just felt like, that marriage was kind of final in his books

But the argument, that Lightweavers see Truth > Oath, brought up by @Rainier, is a sound one. I won't make a prediction atm, but... I don't really see it as impossible anymore. Actually, I think, that this could be a pretty compelling storyline.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SLNC

[GoddessIMHO]

No, nope, nope, nope. Nada, nicht, Though I'm all for the bromance continuing.

[MonsterMetroid]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I initially thought, that a divorce was not possible, because, well, Brandon has never written something like it yet. I didn't necessarily lean on belief, because while I know, that Brandon is a very religious person, I don't think, that he is unwilling to get out of his comfort zone.

I was definitely the same way because I am a very religious person as well and like you said he hasn't written something like that before. But I have been trying to figure out for a while now why he didn't write in the marriage scene like he did for Dalinar and Navani, why the marriage felt really sudden to me. I think it's because he has already started distancing the relationship from us to soften the blow, also it makes it way easier for rereads if it does fail because who would want to read about a marriage you know would fail.

All that together just kind of started to convince me that it makes sense puzzle wise. I wouldn't bet big money on it because there are way too many things that could happen. But I'd bet Lunch on it.

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

And speaking of powerful lies, what do we know about Shallan and lying? Who warned her about what happens to women who believe their lies? She's been warned that all good con women (which she absolutely still is) meet the same fate: they start to believe their lies and can't jump ship when the time is right. This is what is happening to Shallan; she's starting to believe her own lies. It might take a while for the other shoe to drop, but if she's not ready to get out ahead of time, she'll meet the same fate as Tyn. 

That, I think, is the surest sign that this marriage will go wrong. Tyn told Shallan what would happen, the advice was disregarded, and now we'll get to see the consequences. 

Yeah I never thought of that man that would give Tyn a HUGE reread value, I love that. It would also be the kind of moment where Veil would look to persona SHallan and say " I told you" haha

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I don't have too much time to go into super detail about this, but I vehemently disagree with about everything in this thread (no offense ). 

I do agree a divorce storyline would be very interesting to read (especially since Brandon's never done one before), and I'm not arguing on that point. I just don't buy that Shallan and Adolin won't work out. I've always really liked them as a couple, far more than Shallan and Kaladin. Shallan/Kaladin felt way too clichéd for me, so it just felt off (especially for a Sanderson book). And I think that Adolin is exactly what Shallan needs right now. She needs someone who isn't gonna praise her for her issues. Kaladin literally loves the fact that Shallan is able to hide away her problems, which actually is a terrible thing for Shallan right now. If they got together, it would just lead to a very toxic relationship where they each love the other person's mental issues, not the person themself. 

As for Shallan/Adolin, yes, their relationship will be tough. But I know that Brandon can show how, even when a couple gets the happily ever after marriage, there's are still problems the relationship has to face, and that will be a far better story to read in my opinion. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by StrikerEZ

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Shallan/Kaladin felt way too clichéd for me

I always see this. May I ask why? I don't mean tropes, because tropes are tropes for a reason. They just exist. But flat-out cliches, which I really don't see in how they interact. It feels pretty naturally evolving.

Objectively, the Disney prince/princess romance Adolin and Shallan have going atm is also cliched and boring (and nauseating, not just for me but in-book characters too!  ). I mean it is cool, if you have different feeling, but it is pretty hard to argue with feelings.

 

[Humming]

13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I always see this. May I ask why? I don't mean tropes, because tropes are tropes for a reason. They just exist. But flat-out cliches, which I really don't see in how they interact. It feels pretty naturally evolving.

Objectively, the Disney prince/princess romance Adolin and Shallan have going atm is also cliched and boring (and nauseating, not just for me but in-book characters too!  ). I mean it is cool, if you have different feeling, but it is pretty hard to argue with feelings.

 

I think that's the main excuse to not to ship her with Kaladin, that they don't like 2 main characters together. Its easier than admitting that Kaladin and Shallan had more undergoing chemistry in 2 scenes than Adolin and Shallan admiring each other's bodies the rest of the books.

[Rainier]

56 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

And I think that Adolin is exactly what Shallan needs right now.

That may be, but that doesn't mean her needs will stay the same, or that they'll be right for each other when they do. That, I think, is the most likely reason for their relationship failing: the pace of change. 

 

56 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

I don't have too much time to go into super detail about this, but I vehemently disagree with about everything in this thread (no offense ). 

Oh I understand, for sure. I've spent a lot of time Invested in Shallan/Kaladin, so I don't claim to be neutral in any way. I'll just chime in that while our two opposite sex main characters getting together romantically might be a trope, or a cliche, I don't really mind either tropes or cliches, I mind them done poorly. As long as it's a good story well written, I'm OK with anything.

However, what I'm not OK with is foreshadowing that goes nowhere. I'm not OK with symbolism that's meaningless, and if you're going to show me a gun, you had better fire it. I won't blame an author for using a trope such as Chekov's Gun, but Shaggy Dog stories are awful for me. That's really how I feel about Kaladin and Shallan. It's so clear that there's something there. It a freaking gun, and I'm waiting for it to go off. If it turns out it's not a gun but a dog, I'll be very disappointed.

13 minutes ago, Humming said:

I think that's the main excuse to not to ship her with Kaladin, that they don't like 2 main characters together. Its easier than admitting that Kaladin and Shallan had more undergoing chemistry in 2 scenes than Adolin and Shallan admiring each other's bodies the rest of the books.

At the risk of sounding like Ducky, yep yep yep!

There seem to be some very strong opinions about what is and is not OK for Brandon to do, and Shallan + Kaladin seems to be #1 NO for reasons I can't fathom. There's a visceral distaste for it that baffles me.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Rainier

[Humming]

20 minutes ago, Rainier said:

There seem to be some very strong opinions about what is and is not OK for Brandon to do, and Shallan + Kaladin seems to be #1 NO for reasons I can't fathom. There's a visceral distaste for it that baffles me.

Yup, the lack of strong reasons apart from them being 2 main characters and a simple Nope for Brandon to write this. *shrugs*

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Kaladin literally loves the fact that Shallan is able to hide away her problems, which actually is a terrible thing for Shallan right now. If they got together, it wouldn't just lead to a very toxic relationship where they each love the other person's mental issues, not the person themself. 

There is an interesting dichotomy going on here: on one hand you have a character who is saying the right things (I want to whole you, the real you) but not following through with that in his actions (treating Shallan's personas differently by refusing to be intimate with Veil) versus the character who once said the wrong thing but appears to be acting in a mental health-positive manner (not reacting when Shallan switches personas.) It's the classic - do actions matter more than words?

That being said, I agree that any relationship Shallan would be in where her partner is either saying words or undertaking actions which encourage her to maintain her fractured personality (by memory repression or strengthening the persona splits) is not a healthy thing for her. You feel this creates a "toxic relationship" - since Kaladin's words to Shallan are evidence to you that any Shallan/Kaladin relationship would be toxic then you must believe that Adolin's actions towards Shallan is evidence that Shallan's relationship with Adolin is currently toxic. (And I agree. Shallan should not be with either Kaladin or Adolin at the moment.)

One more note, if the implication is that Adolin and Shallan can work through their toxicity, then there's no reason Kaladin and Shallan, should they ever choose to enter into a relationship, could also work through any potential toxicity.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Prelude]

Zero conflict in their relationship. It’s just not possible. Someone is denying themselves in this relationship and that level of restraint can not be maintained. Why Andolin marries her no one can satisfy me on this. Point to where in the books we understand she is the only woman for him. I would feel better about them if there was text to show us Andolin thinking of Shallan like we have of Kaladin. I just can’t believe BS isn’t doing this for a reason. He has to be setting us up for something insane in the next book that we are not seeing. 

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Prelude said:

Point to where in the books we understand she is the only woman for him. I would feel better about them if there was text to show us Andolin thinking of Shallan like we have of Kaladin.

Well, this is timely.  May I humbly direct you to my post where I compile all the times Adolin thinks about Shallan in WoR and OB.  (Note I have some comments in here with my own personal opinion/analysis which I delineate from the collection of the primary source material; hopefully it is clear when I do so.  My one true ship is Kadolin, so I have highly editorialized comments on that, though note this list is not at all exhaustive of the times Adolin is thinking about Kaladin.)  I was truly shocked by how this read collectively; prior to this my opinion was: Adolin had strong feelings for Shallan; Kaladin had strong feelings for Shallan; Veil had strong feelings for Kaladin; "Shallan" had strong feelings for Adolin.  After this, I am seriously doubting the level of Adolin's affection - it started out close to what expected in his first Kholinar viewpoint, but went downhill from there.  The main revelations which jumped out at me:

• Adolin focuses on Kaladin when the group arrives in Shadesmar and doesn't notice Shallan is exhausted from her efforts to escape the sphere-ocean until she literally collapses and he has to catch her.  The next morning, Adolin's first thought upon seeing Shallan, Azure and Kaladin is whether Kaladin slept.
• On the Reacher ship, we see Adolin give Shallan a compliment (“I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible. In all their color [nb. the highstorms], even those clouds can’t compete”) when we were told by Adolin's monologue/shown through actions that this is not a truthful statement from Adolin's perspective.
• In Celebrant, Adolin lets Shallan choose her task (find a ship or exchange spheres) and Adolin these decides to accompany Kaladin on the task Shallan did not choose.

Note as much as I am obsessed with Kadolin, I don't think they will actually happen, but I find the extreme difference between how Adolin is thinking about Shallan versus Kaladin to be very telling regarding Adolin's feelings for Shallan.

 

[Guest]

Bringing this over from another thread:

I actually had a bit of an Eureka moment. Brandon already has shown us an out, even if the Vorin church doesn't permit a divorce.

The Stormfather.

Dalinar and Navani get married before the Stormfather, because the Vorin church didn't want to marry them. The Stormfather even tells Navani, that she has broken oaths before and still accepts her oath to Dalinar. I think, that could be the same with Kaladin and Shallan, if Adolin and Shallan break up. Oaths can be anulled, if there is mutual consent and Adolin already was willing to step back. I do think, that the Stormfather would accept that. While personaShallan is a "good Vorin girl", she has streaks of heresy, which actually makes me believe that that is actually a part of realShallan. 

So who cares about the Vorin church? The SF is the higher authority anyway.

[PhineasGage]

12 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

No, nope, nope, nope. Nada, nicht, Though I'm all for the bromance continuing.

I get that you disagree - but I am wondering why? I mean what is your evidence please? I think @MonsterMetroid has put some good points forward so perhaps you could say where you disagree? Is there evidence that they will grow together and work properly as a married couple rather than infatuated teenagers for example?

[ggscv]

I completely agree with the OP. My first instinct while reading the book was to cast doubt on the marriage, especially the way it played out so quickly and the fact that Shallan clearly still had unresolved issues with Veil and Kaladin. I was somewhat taken aback after a vast majority of forum goers said things like: "now can we stop shipping Shalladin" and "finally we can put this love triangle to rest". In my mind, the situation is anything but resolved, and we are definitely going to see developments in both books 4 and 5, as well as in 6-10. I would be shocked if Adolin and Shallan stayed as a happily married couple for the rest of the Stormlight series.

Now after reading that WoB, my hunch (with absolutely zero evidence backing it) is that Adolin will end up dying and that books 6-10 will have a time shifted Shallan/Kaladin dynamic much like Navani/Dalinar. Sadly, we probably won't get anything until at least 2020.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Okay, again, I have no time to really answer this, but I will say that @Dreamstorm made a really good point I hadn't realized before. 

For me, I just feel like neither Shallan nor Kaladin are in any sort of state right now to get in a relationship with anyone, really. Maybe when they fix their own mental issues it could work out, but I definitely like Shallan/Adolin better. But that's just my opinion.

[Xaladin he/him]

17 hours ago, Prelude said:

Point to where in the books we understand she is the only woman for him.

Adolin has literally exhausted all other options. I identify.

[+Wax he/him]

I’ll add fuel to the theory that Shallan will blame herself for Adolin’s death, should it happen.

[GoddessIMHO]

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I get that you disagree - but I am wondering why? I mean what is your evidence please? I think @MonsterMetroid has put some good points forward so perhaps you could say where you disagree? Is there evidence that they will grow together and work properly as a married couple rather than infatuated teenagers for example?

Here's the thing, both sides have listed the quotes and posted their views and few are taking the ferry to the other ship. I loved the Adolin and Shallan chapters at the beginning and my own personal "feeling" when reading made me think Adolin and Shallan will be good for each other. I read the same book you did and what I felt is different than what you felt.

There is no denying that Adolin dying would be explosive in world. He is a secondary character but his ties to all three of the mains would have them going clown posy crazy over it. I just REALLY hope that doesn't happen and I just REALLY hope a divorce doesn't happen.

I would LOVE to see a married couple working through their differences. I want Shallan to actually forgive Kaladin over Helaran and the two of them become buddies but not lovers.

Kaladin Wind runner fighting side by side with Adolin Edge dancer while Shallan Soul Casts the way Jashna did in TC would make for an epic battle scene.

 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Here's the thing, both sides have listed the quotes and posted their views and few are taking the ferry to the other ship.

And that is the problem with all of these threads. 

If people just wanted to discuss the characters and what motivates them that would be one thing. But it's not about that. It's about who's right, and who's wrong. Who's psychoanalysis is more accurate to predict the outcome of these fictional characters.

If it was just about the characters, and exploring where they'd end up through speculation that would be fine. But it's always about pointing out how the other group can't possibly be right. And that's really disappointing. 

 

I fully agree with the outcome you'd like to see @GoddessIMHO.

[Rainier]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If people just wanted to discuss the characters and what motivates them that would be one thing. But it's not about that. It's about who's right, and who's wrong.

It's both, isn't it? I see your sentiment pretty regularly, and while I sympathize I don't really agree. I'll take the bickering and partisanship if it means there's more people analyzing and delving into the characters. In our 62+ page thread on Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin we've got quite a bit of group jockeying, but also some of the most in-depth character analysis I've seen. It makes me wish Dalinar was in a love triangle because then we'd get more analysis of him and his psyche.

Besides that, I know what you're talking about when it comes to trying to be right. It can feel like it's a contest to throw the most crem at the wall and see what sticks come book 4. There's relatively little cost to speculating, and I suppose the reward (pointing out how you were right four years ago) is worth the cost.

I'd also say that the contest is so bitter because the stakes are so small. It feels like something that's more in the realm of the fandom instead of the sole purview of the author. What I mean is that from a story perspective it doesn't matter if our Windrunner is romantically involved with our Lightweaver, or any other particular Radiant. Adolin hardly matters at all in the scope of the apocalypse, which is the scope for the books that we need to keep in mind. Which outcomes occur won't affect other books, or other worlds, or other eras, so the stakes are relatively trivial in world.

There's a thousand different ways the plot could develop going forward, and the only thing we know for certain is that it's a conflict with Odium. With the relationship triangle, there's really only two outcomes. It's easier to stake out a position when it's A vs B, but a lot harder when it's pick a number 5-500. 

Just some meta-level rambling thoughts as someone who's been neck deep in this stuff.

[Dreamstorm]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If people just wanted to discuss the characters and what motivates them that would be one thing. But it's not about that. It's about who's right, and who's wrong. Who's psychoanalysis is more accurate to predict the outcome of these fictional characters.

If it was just about the characters, and exploring where they'd end up through speculation that would be fine. But it's always about pointing out how the other group can't possibly be right. And that's really disappointing. 

This isn't really accurate.... here's the thing.  These aren't real people, so we're not sitting around debating whether our friend Shallan should date Adolin or Kaladin with the resolution of this issue having an unknown future.  The future of this issue is known by the author, so there is an objective answer to who Shallan will end up with.  (Just like there is an objective answer to some magic system question - let's say how skybreakers use division.)  Some posters (myself included) like to debate where the relationship is headed from an objective evidentiary perspective - analyzing the primary sources to see what the author is showing us and telling us and hinting to us and theorizing on why he's doing that and what it means.  There is a correct answer which like any other Brandon "mystery" we can quite likely get to through this method; he admits many times that if you closely track his foreshadowing you can figure out a lot of his "twists" (and that he won't retwist the plot to escape fans figuring things out!)  This is no different than posters debating a magic system question and coming down on opposite sides of the issue; in the end, there is a right answer, so in a binary question like this (or trinary is you put neither as an option) someone will be right and someone will be wrong.  If you don't like doing this kind of theorizing around characters and their emotional relationships, that's totally fine!  But some of us clearly do, and it can't logically be treated as different than any other open question in the books.

Where the tension comes in, is that in any open question there are also people's feelings around it, and as such there is a subjective viewpoint as well.  In emotional relationship plots, this seems to be more intense as people tend to have more intense feelings (no one is too emotionally agitated about how skybreakers use division, they just want to know the right answer.)  If I posed a theory that Shallan likes to fly and therefore I'm pretty sure she's going to learn to fly with her surgebinding, you would probably slap me down and say there's absolutely no way that will happen.  So, my viewpoint would be objectively wrong, but that doesn't invalidate my subjective feelings - I just really want that to happen!  That's a bit what is going here (though of course the answer is way less clearcut); you (or anyone else) likes Shadolin, you got some feelings about it, I'm saying that view contradicts a lot of evidence in the books.  Doesn't invalidate your feelings, of course, but the fact you have feelings about it doesn't invalidate my search for the objective answer.

To summarize - you can't logically treat finding the objective truth in the emotional plotlines of characters any different from finding the objective truth in a magic system questions.  Just because emotional plotlines raise more subjective feelings doesn't make the search for that truth invalid.

[Steeldancer he/him]

A point- no one is ever going to convince anyone about relationships. It's entirely  subjective, and based on opinions. To each their own opinions. But, bashing other opinions isnt going to change anything. Especially because the books aren't clear cut, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue of contention! 

 

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

A point- no one is ever going to convince anyone about relationships. It's entirely  subjective, and based on opinions. To each their own opinions. But, bashing other opinions isnt going to change anything. Especially because the books aren't clear cut, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue of contention! 

 

And that's my entire problem. It's not about exploring the characters. That's a byproduct of arguing opinions that aren't going to change. So it's just this circular argument digging deeper and deeper to try and prove something that doesn't matter.