unmade [OB] Those who were made, then Unmade.

[Calderis he/him]

Investiture can be neither created nor destroyed. 

Nothing can kill investiture. It can be corrupted to a form in which it isn't usable, but it does not go away 

[aemetha he/him]

Ah, okay. That sounds right. Curious though, does that mean said investiture is no longer associated with a particular shard?

[Mutantspicy]

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Shard what splintered. The vessel died. What's different is that he became a Cognitive Shadow. What do you think is different? 

I think it was implicit in my question.  I wonder if the ghost of person is different than the ghost of a god.  Also can a god project shadows before death? This is the question I get from this story.  But not the total question because did Roshar have its own Gods before the shards hit. Were they dead? and did Honor and Odium kill them?

Edited December 17, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

I think it was implicit in my question.  I wonder if the ghost of person is different than the ghost of a god.  Also can a god project shadows before death? This is the question I get from this story.  But not the total question because did Roshar have its own Gods before the shards hit. Were they dead? and did Honor and Odium kill them?

Have you read anything other than Stormlight Archive in the Cosmere?

The Shards are only Gods in comparison to normal men and women. They are themselves smaller portions of something greater 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Calderis

[natc]

They're basically all normal mortals (well okay not all of them were human and some might not have been actually mortal but you know what I mean) that have taken a massive power into themselves. Shards are really only gods insofar as having almighty power, and even that power suffers limitations all over the place depending on circumstances, and is but 1/16 of the original power of Adonalsium.

[Mutantspicy]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Have you read anything other than Stormlight Archive in the Cosmere?

The Shards are only God's in comparison to normal men and women. They are themselves smaller portions of something greater 

I've read the mistborn series and elantris.  I'm new to Brandon Sandersons world completely.  Only been reading for a couple of years.  I keep my views based on the actual books I've read and my own speculations.  As to your statement, I never felt like the shards are even remotely close to gods. Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Odium, Cultivation are the Gods I'm aware of.  I think Ruin and Odium are falling for the same trap a bit. the more they get involved with life the less godly they become.

[aemetha he/him]

Have you read mistborn: secret history and Warbreaker?

[Mutantspicy]

2 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Have you read mistborn: secret history and Warbreaker?

Not yet

[natc]

You said you never thought of the shards as being remotely close to gods . . . then proceeded to list five shards as gods you know?

[aemetha he/him]

I would definitely recommend picking up a copy of Warbreaker and Arcanum Unbounded then. They both have major implications for the Stormlight Archives. Secret history, which is in Arcanum Unbounded gives a lot of explanation on the nature of shards and cognitive shadows etc. Warbreaker is the prequel to the Stormlight Archives, so you can expect a lot of cross over appearances. Arcanum Unbounded also includes Edgedanger, which is an actual part of Stormlight Archive, just a novella rather than a novel.

[Mutantspicy]

2 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I would definitely recommend picking up a copy of Warbreaker and Arcanum Unbounded then. They both have major implications for the Stormlight Archives. Secret history, which is in Arcanum Unbounded gives a lot of explanation on the nature of shards and cognitive shadows etc. Warbreaker is the prequel to the Stormlight Archives, so you can expect a lot of cross over appearances. Arcanum Unbounded also includes Edgedanger, which is an actual part of Stormlight Archive, just a novella rather than a novel.

Arcanum Unbounded is totally on the list next.   Warbreaker is one I didn't really consider too high of a priority. I have a lot of books on the list Sanderson is new for me.  That said, this story is so thought provoking I'm glad to be getting into it.   And I had never really read any reviews of Warbreaker being a prequel.  Though all of the cosmere is somehow connected.

[RShara she/her]

15 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

I've read the mistborn series and elantris.  I'm new to Brandon Sandersons world completely.  Only been reading for a couple of years.  I keep my views based on the actual books I've read and my own speculations.  As to your statement, I never felt like the shards are even remotely close to gods. Ruin, Preservation, Honor, Odium, Cultivation are the Gods I'm aware of.  I think Ruin and Odium are falling for the same trap a bit. the more they get involved with life the less godly they become.

So there's a lot of theorizing and evolution here.  Wall of text incoming!

In essence, the Shards aren't really gods the way we think of them (i.e. divine beings).  They're just really really really powerful people due to a specific circumstance that occurred long ago.

And the reason I bolded the last part of your statement is because of this:  There's the Vessel, which is the person that existed before they picked up the Shard, and then there's the Shard, which is the pure power.

The Vessel can have its own thoughts, desires, motivations, etc.  The Shard has an Intent.  It's more-or-less completely devoted to that single Intent.

Over time, that Shardic Intent affects the Vessel's thoughts, desires, motiviations, etc, to a degree.  What kind of degree depends on the strength and willpower of the Vessel.  Harmony, aka Sazed, for example, is nearly paralyzed by inaction due to the perfectly opposing Intents of the Shards he holds, despite what *he* wants, in a relatively short time.  Preservation was literally unable to destroy at all, because of the Intent of the Shard.  Vin, however, was able to destroy, despite holding Preservation, because she hadn't held it long enough to have it affect her.

Odium, on the other hand, seems to be in fairly decent control of the Intent of his Shard, and seems to act with more freedom than, say, Ruin or Preservation were able to.

Splinters are smaller bits of power that have gained a degree of sentience.  All types of spren are a type of Splinter, for example.  Some are as small-bits as windspren. Some are as large as the Stormfather.  The more power they are comprised of, the faster they gain sentience.  So, the Unmade are Splinters of Odium, no matter how you turn it--they are chunks of his power that have (sort of) gained sentience.  Some have even gained sapience. 

We don't know how much free will a Splinter can have, exactly.  But we know that Syl defies the Stormfather (who created her) multiple times, and she's just a tiny splinter.  So it stands to reason that they can possibly have quite a bit of free will--though it's hard to say since we don't know how Odium created them, whether he kept some sort of link to them, etc, etc.  Therefore, Sja-anat, for example, isn't any kind of deviation from what we could reasonably expect from a Splinter.

 

And I agree that you definitely need to read Secret History.  There is a LOT of information there about the 3 Realms and the workings of the Cosmere.  Warbreaker is kind of a prequel for a few of the...more unexplained characters in Stormlight Archive.  It's definitely worth a read, since I think that the Warbreaker planet and Roshar are *very* closely linked.

[aemetha he/him]

8 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

Warbreaker is one I didn't really consider too high of a priority.

Warbreaker is my favourite cosmere tale. Some of the characters there, who also pop up in Stormlight are just brilliant. It's a story full of consequences for decisions taken, which is something I really liked about it. Some would also argue it is an inspiring tale about a never ending battle to destroy evil . Anyway, just saying, if it was my list, I'd bump warbreaker to the top of it.

[Mutantspicy]

2 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Warbreaker is my favourite cosmere tale. Some of the characters there, who also pop up in Stormlight are just brilliant. It's a story full of consequences for decisions taken, which is something I really liked about it. Some would also argue it is an inspiring tale about a never ending battle to destroy evil . Anyway, just saying, if it was my list, I'd bump warbreaker to the top of it.

Good to know. Thank you. 

[Mutantspicy]

20 minutes ago, RShara said:

 So, the Unmade are Splinters of Odium, no matter how you turn it--they are chunks of his power that have (sort of) gained sentience.  Some have even gained sapience. 

We don't know how much free will a Splinter can have, exactly.  But we know that Syl defies the Stormfather (who created her) multiple times, and she's just a tiny splinter.  So it stands to reason that they can possibly have quite a bit of free will--though it's hard to say since we don't know how Odium created them, whether he kept some sort of link to them, etc, etc.  Therefore, Sja-anat, for example, isn't any kind of deviation from what we could reasonably expect from a Splinter.

 

 

So thank you very much for the incredibly thoughtful post.  I'm learning about this world and your information was very helpful.  

But I cut out this region because I'm not really sure about.  I feel like the unmade are like our version of Pagan spirits who rule the world, and the shards or gods or fake gods whatever are manipulating or in cahoots with them.  I feel like the Unmade are the wild card in this story. But at the moment odium seems to have them under his thumb.  

Edited December 17, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

So thank you very much for the incredibly thoughtful post.  I'm learning about this world and your information was very helpful.  

But I cut out this region because I'm not really sure about.  I feel like the unmade are like our version of Pagan spirits who rule the world, and the shards or gods or fake gods whatever are manipulating or in cahoots with them.  I feel like the Unmade are the wild card in this story.

Well, that's because of this:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e1672

Quote

WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

100% definitive

[Mutantspicy]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

 

And the reason I bolded the last part of your statement is because of this:  There's the Vessel, which is the person that existed before they picked up the Shard, and then there's the Shard, which is the pure power.

The Vessel can have its own thoughts, desires, motivations, etc.  The Shard has an Intent.  It's more-or-less completely devoted to that single Intent.

Over time, that Shardic Intent affects the Vessel's thoughts, desires, motiviations, etc, to a degree.  What kind of degree depends on the strength and willpower of the Vessel.  Harmony, aka Sazed, for example, is nearly paralyzed by inaction due to the perfectly opposing Intents of the Shards he holds, despite what *he* wants, in a relatively short time.  Preservation was literally unable to destroy at all, because of the Intent of the Shard.  Vin, however, was able to destroy, despite holding Preservation, because she hadn't held it long enough to have it affect her.

 

However, isn't this the beauty of the stories. Vin's ability to transcend until it was her time to chill, Kaladins constant defiance of even his own passions , Shallans quest for truth, but ultimately Dalinar's ability to face his own ugly truth.  All of them were under the influence and were able to stand against their own demons. And to your point Sazed stuck as Harmony is heart breaking, but I have to think that will change.  

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[Oathforger]

On 12/15/2017 at 6:02 PM, Ymawgat said:

Also how did you get that word in yellow beside your post title?

 

On 12/15/2017 at 6:32 PM, Ymawgat said:

Also can you tell me how to get words in orange/yellow beside the post title like op has?

 

On 12/15/2017 at 6:34 PM, RShara said:

I have no idea on the text.  Maybe if you tag it with a popular tag?

There's an option right under where you choose to add tags where you can select a tag you wrote and use it as "prefix".

[Ymawgat]

2 hours ago, Oathforger said:

There's an option right under where you choose to add tags where you can select a tag you wrote and use it as "prefix".

THANK YOU!!!

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Apparently the ever storm is something new, and it alter the oath pact. Before the fused were sent back to damnation upon their death, to return upon the next desolation, but now every time Odium or the listerners summon the ever storm, the fused can return to mortal form. I am wondering if it is something akin to a void version of the storm father. A creation of odium, similar to the unmade themselves. I doubt it has a fraction of their power, but does have a specific power and purpose.

if the storm can summon the fused, I wonder just how linked/connected they are to this storm. I ould be used against them in some manner. I have this theory that the unmade could be all trapped and used in a fabrial, to be used against the enemy. The ever storm could be the means how the unmade could be used against the fused.

[Oathforger]

1 hour ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

Apparently the ever storm is something new, and it alter the oath pact. Before the fused were sent back to damnation upon their death, to return upon the next desolation, but now every time Odium or the listerners summon the ever storm, the fused can return to mortal form. I am wondering if it is something akin to a void version of the storm father. A creation of odium, similar to the unmade themselves. I doubt it has a fraction of their power, but does have a specific power and purpose.

if the storm can summon the fused, I wonder just how linked/connected they are to this storm. I ould be used against them in some manner. I have this theory that the unmade could be all trapped and used in a fabrial, to be used against the enemy. The ever storm could be the means how the unmade could be used against the fused.

I like the idea, and it would be a great foundation for a book, but I don't think Brandon would go that way. He likes his twists, so I think this might be a little too straightforward for him. If anything, this would be a side quest of some sort. Love where its going though

[.S.A.M.K.M]

That is a twist, after many final battle over the centuries it ends with growth and life.

[Barkeep]

Hi all,

Long time lurker here with my first post.

What if the unmade were created one by one as each Herald broke the first time?

Meaning the 10th unmade has yet to show up or already has (thinking of the Everstorm).

 

[.S.A.M.K.M]

We know they are splinters of odium power, so why would he make them then unmake them? Odium was said to be the original human God, so they could have been the equivalent of the nightmother or storm father. Then when humans turned to the spren if Roshar, he took his nine and remade them in Vengence.

[aemetha he/him]

28 minutes ago, .S.A.M.K.M said:

We know they are splinters of odium power, so why would he make them then unmake them? Odium was said to be the original human God, so they could have been the equivalent of the nightmother or storm father. Then when humans turned to the spren if Roshar, he took his nine and remade them in Vengence.

Odium was said to have been brought by the voidbringers in an account by the dawnsingers. The account is a biased account. BS has said that Odium arrived at the same time as the humans, but that didn't necessarily mean he came with them. It's really not clear what happened with the arrival of the humans and the first desolation. About all we do know is the humans were supposed to stay in the area given to them, Shin, and for some reason did not and came into conflict with the dawnsingers. We don't know the composition of what races were following the direction of what shards in that initial conflict.