unmade [OB] Those who were made, then Unmade.

[Greywatch she/her]

10 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

I'm sorry but what exactly is your point in this comment?

I believe their point is that what exactly is happening with the Stormfather is sketchy and hard to define, almost fuzzy...

[RShara she/her]

20 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

There is literally no evidence for this that I know of.

Brandon has confirmed that the SF is a C.Shadow of Tanavast, and making things more complicated than than that goes against occum's razor. We don't have any reason to believe that that something can't be created as a splinter and CS at the same time, and we know little enough about CSs that you saying "hang on, this isn't how this works, there must be something more complicated going on!" seems both groundless and kind of pointless?

Well yeah, he's a radiant spren?

I'm sorry but what exactly is your point in this comment?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34-arcanum-unbounded-seattle-signing/#e5991

Quote

Questioner

Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall...

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather?

Questioner

The Stormfather.

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.

So if he is a Cognitive Shadow, and a Splinter, then it would have to be what I said--Either a Splinter that absorbed the CS, or a CS that is augmented by (i.e. absorbed) the Splinter.

What I mean is, the Stormfather isn't easily defined.  What, exactly, he is is unclear, aka fuzzy.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81-shadows-of-self-newcastle-uk-signing/#e5723

Quote

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

Also, from the link you included, Brandon says that CS are basically ghosts.  Not sure how you can have a ghost before the person is dead?

Edited December 17, 2017 by RShara

[Mutantspicy]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:10 PM, RShara said:

He won't pick up new shards, but splintering himself wouldn't change his Intent.  Otherwise Endowment would be changing constantly.  As I mentioned in another thread about this:  Say you have a cake.  If you add to the cake, it's no longer the same flavor.  But if you take away a slice, it's still the same cake, just smaller.

The Storm Father considers himself to be a shadow of the the almighty.  Many insist he means splinter, perhaps thats because he was destroyed and people think he broke in to 10 parts or essences.  But the shadow of the almighty existed before his death,  The unmade do not have to be a splintering of Odium, which implies a weakening, but rather a shadow left by a god. These nine essences can simply be the shadow of Odium.  Similarly the almighty created a shadow of 10 essences on this world.  Many seem to be assuming this shattering effect of his death created the essences, but maybe the essences were there all along and the stories are once again all unclear.  

Since the shadow of the almighty can exist past the death of their origin the almighty.  That would suggest that not only the 10 essences of Honor but the 9 essence of Odium can be independent.  This is the real power of Dalinar's defiance of Odium.  He simply said no. 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Mutantspicy

[Ymawgat]

27 minutes ago, RShara said:

Either a Splinter that absorbed the CS, or a CS that is augmented by (i.e. absorbed) the Splinter.

.....or he was always both, from the first moment he existed, which I think is a lot more likely, basically because of Occam's razor:

Your solution (that he was a splinter that absorbed Honour's ghost) requires a more complex assumption than mine does IMO.

30 minutes ago, RShara said:

Also, from the link you included, Brandon says that CS are basically ghosts.  Not sure how you can have a ghost before the person is dead?

You can have a ghost of someone you used to be? You could have a copy of your mind that you pored investiture into until it gained it's own consciousness? 

Besides which I don't really get why you see this as so significant? Like, look at the following logic:

Data point one: the Stormfather is ultimately a CS, and Brandon predominantly calls him a CS, and does so more often (as your own comment illustrated) than he calls him a splinter.

Data point two: We're told in Oathbringer that the SF existed at the same time as Honour did.

Therefore: Regardless of what a CS actually is, you can have one existing at the same time you exist.

How is this weaker than the idea that you can't create a ghost without dying? Especially since there's nothing in Cosmere-canon that implies that idea?

48 minutes ago, RShara said:

What I mean is, the Stormfather isn't easily defined.  What, exactly, he is is unclear, aka fuzzy.

Yeah sure I got that, but what I mean is, how is that relevant to the original thread? And to my theory, since that's what you were quoting?

[aemetha he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

The Storm Father considers himself to be a shadow of the the almighty.  Many insist he means splinter, perhaps thats because he was destroyed and people think he broke in to 10 parts or essences.  But the shadow of the almighty existed before his death,  The unmade do not have to be a splintering of Odium, which implies a weakening, but rather a shadow left by a god. These nine essences can simply be the shadow of Odium.  Similarly the almighty created a shadow of 10 essences on this world.  Many seem to be assuming this shattering effect of his death created the essences, but maybe the essences were there all along and the stories are once again all unclear.

The stormfather is a cognitive shadow of the almighty, because the almighty is dead. Before the almighty died the stormfather was a splinter of the almighty. The splinter and the cognitive shadow merged to create a new thing.

The same applies to the Heralds, they have all died and so are cognitive shadows, but not cognitive shadows of the almighty, cognitive shadows of the people they were when they were alive. You can't have a cognitive shadow of an entity that isn't dead. You can have invested people though, which is how you get cognitive shadows normally anyway. The more invested a person is, the more they are able to resist the pull of the beyond and find a way to anchor themselves. In the case of the Heralds is seems like Honor took care of that detail for the Heralds.

[RShara she/her]

A CS is the remaining imprint of the mind of a person.  Each person exists on 3 levels.  While they're alive, their mind is their cognitive aspect.  When they die, if there's enough investiture, the mind, or Cognitive Aspect, can live on as a Cognitive Shadow.  The Cognitive *Shadow* by definition, can't be of a living being.  While the being is alive, what exists in the Cognitive Realm is their Cognitive Aspect.

Whether the Cognitive Shadow is actually that person's mind, or just the imprint (sorry not sure what the correct terms are here) of the person is a philosophical thing, but the CS is what's left behind.  It can't exist before the person died.

[Mutantspicy]

7 minutes ago, aemetha said:

The stormfather is a cognitive shadow of the almighty, because the almighty is dead. Before the almighty died the stormfather was a splinter of the almighty. The splinter and the cognitive shadow merged to create a new thing.

The same applies to the Heralds, they have all died and so are cognitive shadows, but not cognitive shadows of the almighty, cognitive shadows of the people they were when they were alive. You can't have a cognitive shadow of an entity that isn't dead. You can have invested people though, which is how you get cognitive shadows normally anyway. The more invested a person is, the more they are able to resist the pull of the beyond and find a way to anchor themselves. In the case of the Heralds is seems like Honor took care of that detail for the Heralds.

I don't think its clear when exactly Odium destroyed Honor.  And when the essences and corresponding Heralds were created.  I think this is all still very much up in the air.  But you do add that extra element to argument.  The division between the cognitive shadows and physical ones.  Its mind bending for sure.  But I think you are quick to assume that a god cannot cast a shadow upon all 3 realms whether dead or not.  In fact Dalinar and the storm father pretty much opened all 3 realms for a quick minute.  

[Ymawgat]

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

A CS is the remaining imprint of the mind of a person.  Each person exists on 3 levels.  While they're alive, their mind is their cognitive aspect.  When they die, if there's enough investiture, the mind, or Cognitive Aspect, can live on as a Cognitive Shadow.  The Cognitive *Shadow* by definition, can't be of a living being.  While the being is alive, what exists in the Cognitive Realm is their Cognitive Aspect.

Whether the Cognitive Shadow is actually that person's mind, or just the imprint (sorry not sure what the correct terms are here) of the person is a philosophical thing, but the CS is what's left behind.  It can't exist before the person died

A: what is your actual evidence for all/any of this?

B: how is this stronger evidence/reasoning for the evidence and reasoning that I've already given?

C: How is this actually relevant to the original topic of the thread, and the theory of mine that you quoted?

[Calderis he/him]

@Ymawgat the Stormfather is a Splinter that merged with the CS of Tanavast as they has been already stated. If you want further evidence that it's not possible that honor fully created the Stormfather, then think about this part.

We have WoB that the Stormfather is the source of stormlight. 

Quote

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

And we have another that Stormlight existed on Roshar before the Shards ever arrived. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

Together, that means that whatever ways that he had been changed, the Stormfather has to predate the shattering. The storms and the stormlight they carry are central to the ecology of Roshar. That Parsh require it for their transformations, and much of the flora and fauna do as well. 

With the Stormfather, Roshar is not the world of Adonalsium's artifice that we know. 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Calderis

[Vortaan he/him]

4 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

A: what is your actual evidence for all/any of this?

B: how is this stronger evidence/reasoning for the evidence and reasoning that I've already given?

C: How is this actually relevant to the original topic of the thread, and the theory of mine that you quoted?

A: Show us any actual confirmed CS of a person that is still alive that isn't Honor, since the timeline there is extremely fuzzy. You're occam's razor is making a lot of assumptions, so please give a secondary source.

B: It's stronger reasoning because there is no evidence at all that you can make a CS from something that still has a physical aspect. We have seen absolutely no evidence of it.

C: The topic of the thread is about the Unmade, which someone suggested were CS of Rayse. Rayse can't make CS of himself, much less nine of them, which is how this whole conversation started.

[RShara she/her]

18 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

I don't think its clear when exactly Odium destroyed Honor.  And when the essences and corresponding Heralds were created.  I think this is all still very much up in the air.  But you do add that extra element to argument.  The division between the cognitive shadows and physical ones.  Its mind bending for sure.  But I think you are quick to assume that a god cannot cast a shadow upon all 3 realms whether dead or not.  In fact Dalinar and the storm father pretty much opened all 3 realms for a quick minute.  

A god, or at least a Shard, does affect all 3 realms.  Actually, all sapient entities do.  A Shard does so to a higher degree.  But a Shadow is what's left behind.  It's not a literal shadow, or even a figurative shadow.  It's what's left of a person's mind after they die.  (We won't get into whether it's really their mind, or an imprint of their mind).  So the Shard does cast a shadow, or rather affects, all three realms, but that's not what Cognitive Shadows means.

13 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

A: what is your actual evidence for all/any of this?

B: how is this stronger evidence/reasoning for the evidence and reasoning that I've already given?

C: How is this actually relevant to the original topic of the thread, and the theory of mine that you quoted?

A.  Lots of WoB, Secret History, Shadesmar, Nalthis, pretty much the entire Cosmere.

B.  There is no evidence that a Cognitive Shadow can exist before a person dies.  We *know* that all sapient beings exist on all 3 realms.  Splitting off the Cognitive Shadow would be splitting off the mind, leaving body and soul mindless.

C.  I actually conceded the original theory of yours.  I said that I thought it was stretching definitions a bit too much, but that's why speculations are fun.  The part I'm debating with you right now is this part:

Quote

We've literally seen this exact thing happen before mate, the Stormfather is a cognitive shadow of Tanavast/Honour (although we don't know how warped by intent his mind was then) and we're told by Syl that the Stormfather and Honour were alive at the same time.

Yes, the SF is a CS of Honor.  The SF existed before Honor died, but as a Splinter.  When Honor died, the Splinter and the CS merged to become the SF we know now.  And that's why defining the SF is can be fuzzy, because he's not really a Splinter, or a Sliver (technically wasn't a Sliver at all) any more.  He's part remnants of Honor's mind, part of Honor's power, and bonded to a mortal.

 

And yeah, Rayse can't make 9 CS of himself.  However, he can make Splinters of himself, and those Splinters can gain sentience and even independence.  I'm sure that the Shard that makes them can encourage or speed up that sentience.  But once they are separate from the Shard, and have their own sentience, they would *likely* have a degree of free will.

Edited December 17, 2017 by RShara

[aemetha he/him]

[Ymawgat]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Together, that means that whatever ways that he had been changed, the Stormfather has to predate the shattering.

That seems very speculative to me? You can have anger without angerspren, and High-storms without the Stormfather, so it's hard to see this evidence as conclusive.

17 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

Show us any actual confirmed CS of a person that is still alive that isn't Honor, since the timeline there is extremely fuzzy. You're occam's razor is making a lot of assumptions, so please give a secondary source

I'm going off a line in oathbringer that states Honour and the SF existed at the same time; the relevant part of the timeline isn't that fuzzy.

17 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

It's stronger reasoning because there is no evidence at all that you can make a CS from something that still has a physical aspect. We have seen absolutely no evidence of it.

My point is that the evidence that I just gave is stronger than our current knowledge of CSs and the idea that they can't be made out of someone who still exists. At least in my eyes.

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

Lots of WoB, Secret History, Shadesmar, Nalthis, pretty much the entire Cosmere.

I've read most of the cosmere (aside from a couple of short stories) and I didn't get the same impression, at least not to the extent you seem to have. Could you please be more specific/provide links for your claims?

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

There is no evidence that a Cognitive Shadow can exist before a person dies.  We *know* that all sapient beings exist on all 3 realms.  Splitting off the Cognitive Shadow would be splitting off the mind, leaving body and soul mindless.

There is the evidence I just provided: The stormfather is a CS and existed at the same time as Honour, therefore it makes more sense to assume our idea of CS was at least partially incorrect, than it does to make up a pretty complicated story about how the SF became a cognitive shadow, but was something else before that (since Brandon calls the SF a C.Shadow with much more consistency than he calls him a splinter).

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

I actually conceded the original theory of yours.  I said that I thought it was stretching definitions a bit too much, but that's why speculations are fun.  The part I'm debating with you right now is this part:

Quote

We've literally seen this exact thing happen before mate, the Stormfather is a cognitive shadow of Tanavast/Honour (although we don't know how warped by intent his mind was then) and we're told by Syl that the Stormfather and Honour were alive at the same time.

Yes, the SF is a CS of Honor.  The SF existed before Honor died, but as a Splinter.  When Honor died, the Splinter and the CS merged to become the SF we know now.  And that's why defining the SF is can be fuzzy, because he's not really a Splinter, or a Sliver (technically wasn't a Sliver at all) any more.

Ok sorry, that's a fair point and now that you mention it it does actually make my original theory a bit stronger if the Sibling isn't a Conitive shadow.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Ymawgat
small corrections/clarifications

[Mutantspicy]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Ymawgat the Stormfather is a Splinter that merged with the CS of Tanavast as they has been already stated. If you want further evidence that it's not possible that honor fully created the Stormfather, then think about this part.

We have WoB that the Stormfather is the source of stormlight. 

And we have another that Stormlight existed on Roshar before the Shards ever arrived. 

Together, that means that whatever ways that he had been changed, the Stormfather has to predate the shattering. The storms and the stormlight they carry are central to the ecology of Roshar. That Parsh require it for their transformations, and much of the flora and fauna do as well. 

With the Stormfather, Roshar is not the world of Adonalsium's artifice that we know. 

Thank you! These are very interesting details that help my thoughts.   The one thing that hasn't really been addressed is did Humans bring Honor and Cultivation or just Odium.  Does this suggest that the Parsh and Roshar existed without divine interference prior and the Human gods corrupted the Roshar energies that bread life?    So does this mean the Nightwatcher and Stormfather maybe existed as some kind of energy before Honor, Odium and Cultivation showed up?

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

That seems very speculative to me? You can have anger without angerspren, and High-storms without the Stormfather, so it's hard to see this evidence as conclusive.

Read that first WoB again. 

No Stormfather. No Stormlight. 

No Stormlight, no greatshells, no need for gemhearts, no Parshendi form changes. 

The ecology of Roshar does not exist without the Stormfather. 

[Vortaan he/him]

1 minute ago, Ymawgat said:

There is the evidence I just provided: The stormfather is a CS and existed at the same time as Honour, therefore it makes more sense to assume our idea of CS was at leas partially incorrect than it does to make up a pretty complicated story about how the SF became a cognitive shadow but was something else before that (since Brandon calls the SF a C.Shadow with much more consistency than he calls him a splinter).

Stormfather directly says to Dalinar that he wasn't what he is now when Honor was still alive. Also when Dalinar summons Honor's perpendicularity, he tells the Stormfather that they are different. Dalinar, and Honor, and the Stormfather, something that did not exist the last time the Stormfather was bonded to a human. Since we're pretty sure Honor was alive during the Recreance, then the Stormfather can't have been a CS when Honor was still alive.

[Ymawgat]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

@Calderis The quote is in the present tense, meaning this is the way things are, but might not have been how things always were. There could have very well been a perpendicularity before there was the Stormfather.

3 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

Stormfather directly says to Dalinar that he wasn't what he is now when Honor was still alive.

Thank you. I still think this point is a bit fuzzy (like I feel like Honour would be more active if he was a full, intact CS rather than the equivalent of a hemalurgic spike) but I concede I'm probably wrong if the quote you're talking about actually exists.

 

[Mutantspicy]

44 minutes ago, RShara said:

A god, or at least a Shard, does affect all 3 realms.  Actually, all sapient entities do.  A Shard does so to a higher degree.  But a Shadow is what's left behind.  It's not a literal shadow, or even a figurative shadow.  It's what's left of a person's mind after they die.  (We won't get into whether it's really their mind, or an imprint of their mind).  So the Shard does cast a shadow, or rather affects, all three realms, but that's not what Cognitive Shadows means.

A.  Lots of WoB, Secret History, Shadesmar, Nalthis, pretty much the entire Cosmere.

B.  There is no evidence that a Cognitive Shadow can exist before a person dies.  We *know* that all sapient beings exist on all 3 realms.  Splitting off the Cognitive Shadow would be splitting off the mind, leaving body and soul mindless.

C.  I actually conceded the original theory of yours.  I said that I thought it was stretching definitions a bit too much, but that's why speculations are fun.  The part I'm debating with you right now is this part:

Yes, the SF is a CS of Honor.  The SF existed before Honor died, but as a Splinter.  When Honor died, the Splinter and the CS merged to become the SF we know now.  And that's why defining the SF is can be fuzzy, because he's not really a Splinter, or a Sliver (technically wasn't a Sliver at all) any more.  He's part remnants of Honor's mind, part of Honor's power, and bonded to a mortal.

 

And yeah, Rayse can't make 9 CS of himself.  However, he can make Splinters of himself, and those Splinters can gain sentience and even independence.  I'm sure that the Shard that makes them can encourage or speed up that sentience.  But once they are separate from the Shard, and have their own sentience, they would *likely* have a degree of free will.

Regardless of the semantics. Whether you call them Shadows or Splinters, sorry I'm new here and not in with your hipster lingo.  My suggestion was simply Odium essences can exist without him being dead. And those essences because they are now able to connect with people or parsh can be independent or corrupted.  Taker of Secrets for instance.  On the other hand, maybe the old magics are exactly that.  And the unmade were the shadows of the old gods, and existed on Roshar before humans and shards.  Did human gods already kill the old gods before humans invaded and leave the shadows of the unmade?  What it comes down to for me is Did Odium corrupt the unmade or did he create them? But at the end I feel that they have the ability to separate themselves from Odium.

[Greywatch she/her]

Quote

“You have been placed in a difficult position, my son,” Odium said. “You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god.”

Chapter 57

Quote

A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?

“We are Connected.”

I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.

“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”

Chapter 119

Quote

DURING THESE DAYS, HONOR STILL LIVED. I WAS NOT YET FULLY MYSELF. MORE OF A STORM. LESS INTERESTED IN MEN. HIS DEATH CHANGED ME. MY MEMORY OF THAT TIME IS DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN.

Chapter 38

 

[Vortaan he/him]

Gratzi Graywatch

Edited December 17, 2017 by Vortaan

[Calderis he/him]

@Ymawgat last bit, than I'm done.

In addition to the wonderful in book quotes from @Greywatch, we have a WoB that Brandon actually says the word absorbed. This is not coming out of nowhere. You can listen to the audio on this one if you want by clicking the link. It isn't paraphrased.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73/#e4268

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

That combined with the the qualifier before Cognitive Shadow... Yeah.

[RShara she/her]

52 minutes ago, Ymawgat said:

 

I've read most of the cosmere (aside from a couple of short stories) and I didn't get the same impression, at least not to the extent you seem to have. Could you please be more specific/provide links for your claims?

 

There is the evidence I just provided: The stormfather is a CS and existed at the same time as Honour, therefore it makes more sense to assume our idea of CS was at least partially incorrect, than it does to make up a pretty complicated story about how the SF became a cognitive shadow, but was something else before that (since Brandon calls the SF a C.Shadow with much more consistency than he calls him a splinter).

For the first part, Secret History and other Cosmere spoilers:
 

Spoiler

Secret History:

He was . . . what had Fuzz said? A Cognitive Shadow? A force of mind, holding his spirit together, preventing it from diffusing. Saze would have had a field day. He loved mystical topics like this.

---

Several days into his run home, he passed a small village where a few glowing souls huddled together in a building. As he watched, horrified, the roof collapsed, dumping ash on them. Three glows winked out immediately, and the souls of three ashen skaa appeared in the Cognitive Realm, their strings to the physical world cut.

 

 

And some WoB

Quote

Khyrindor

You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

---

Questioner (paraphrased)

So what happens when Shards die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After it dies, the shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "cognitive shadow" of sorts. For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and Snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that cognitive shadow, and he's semi-sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.

---

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

 

---

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Will we ever see protagonists ever come back? ...Once they're, like, dead and stuff?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, there's a couple rules for people coming back in the cosmere. If you could be revived by CPR, you could be saved. If you can't be revived by CPR, only a direct infusion of Investiture immediately to the soul will turn you into a Cognitive Shadow. Those are your two kind of outs. I'll leave it at that for you, and you can see where it goes from there.

 

As you can see, in every instance he talks about Cognitive Shadows, it's in relation to the physical body being dead.  There's, so far as I have found, not a single instance of a CS being created before the death of the body.

 

For the bolded part of yours that I quoted, you're using your theory to prove your theory.  Your theory is that the SF was a CS that existed at the same time as Honor.  We have no proof, other than your theory here, that CS can exist before the death of the being.

The SF is a CS *now* that also holds a chunk of Honor's power.  You have no evidence that the SF was a CS before Honor died.  I'm saying he was a Splinter before Honor died.  That's how he could exist and have his own sapience.  Because Splinters can exist at the same time as a Vessel and be intelligent.  But CS can't.

Edited December 17, 2017 by RShara

[Mutantspicy]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

For the first part, Secret History and other Cosmere spoilers:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Secret History:

He was . . . what had Fuzz said? A Cognitive Shadow? A force of mind, holding his spirit together, preventing it from diffusing. Saze would have had a field day. He loved mystical topics like this.

---

Several days into his run home, he passed a small village where a few glowing souls huddled together in a building. As he watched, horrified, the roof collapsed, dumping ash on them. Three glows winked out immediately, and the souls of three ashen skaa appeared in the Cognitive Realm, their strings to the physical world cut.

 

 

And some WoB

 

As you can see, in every instance he talks about Cognitive Shadows, it's in relation to the physical body being dead.  There's, so far as I have found, not a single instance of a CS being created before the death of the body.

 

For the bolded part of yours that I quoted, you're using your theory to prove your theory.  Your theory is that the SF was a CS that existed at the same time as Honor.  We have no proof, other than your theory here, that CS can exist before the death of the being.

The SF is a CS *now* that also holds a chunk of Honor's power.  You have no evidence that the SF was a CS before Honor died.  I'm saying he was a Splinter before Honor died.  That's how he could exist and have his own sapience.  Because Splinters can exist at the same time as a Vessel and be intelligent.  But CS can't.

Ok sure.  But I think the questions go beyond that now.  What happens when a God dies? or Doesnt't? Do you think the rules are the same? I don't.

[Calderis he/him]

7 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

Ok sure.  But I think the questions go beyond that now.  What happens when a God dies? or Doesnt't? Do you think the rules are the same? I don't.

The Shard what splintered. The vessel died. What's different is that he became a Cognitive Shadow. What do you think is different? 

[aemetha he/him]

Well, the rules aren't the same, because a shardholder isn't a single entity. There is the shard, and there is the vessel. The rules are the same for vessels, we've seen vessels pass to the beyond. Vessels are also heavily invested, so the option to become a cognitive shadow is obviously viable for them - but that rule is the same for anyone else sufficiently invested.

The shard itself doesn't go to the beyond, because it is investiture, and only one thing in the cosmere (that we've seen) can kill investiture. The shard doesn't have a mind though, the shard has only an intent. It will seek an intelligence to guide it, unless it is splintered, in which case it is no longer a single entity for a single intelligence to take up.