[OB] [Full Spoilers] Odium was Talking About Nohadon

[teknopathetic he/him]

Currently in a re-read, and the "vision" between Nohadon and Dalinar stuck out to me. 

Theory: Odium saw Nohadon when Dalinar became Unity. Nohadon, either in semi-death or still alive somehow, managed to connect with Dalinar. Cultivation protected Dalinar's soul by providing the opportunity for Dalinar to  bond with Nohadon, and she restored Dalinar to his broken state just in time for Nohadon to capitalize on Dalinar's open soul. 

1. Dalinar is extremely connected to The Way of Kings and Nohadon.  As a bondsmith, Dalinar works with connection In weird ways. 
2. Dalinar's soul is cracked not only by life, but by Odium, and is temporarily "filled/protected/pruned" by Cultivation.
3. Nohadon comes to Dalinar in a dream in part 5 of Oathbringer after Cultivation has un-pruned Dalinar, exposing Dalinar's soul again. 
4. The dream doesn't follow the rules of the the visions, and the Stormfather knows nothing of the latest Nohadon vision.
5. Nohadon understands Dalinar, and seems to have a strong connection to what makes Dalinar "Dalinar". They understand each other.
6. Nohadon seems real. He seems alive in the vision, and we are led to believe that this vision is a genuine interaction, not a memory or dream.
7. Nohadon, at least to Dalinar, exists.
8. Nohadon hasn't experienced the "Second Death" that the Stormfather talked about. Nohadon is semi-real (or more).
9. They talk, and Nohadon almost asks Dalinar for an oath in saying: "what are the most important steps a man can take"

Later on: 

10. Dalinar is left truly broken, carrying The Way of Kings as his only holy relic. Cultivation has fully opened Dalinar's soul, and now Dalinar's soul is up for grabs. Dalinar clutched to the words of Nohadon, lost in his own despair and misery, yet Dalinar keeps walking through the courtyard. Dalinar literally proffers the book as a shield, and draws the book's knowledge to keep him protected. As Dalinar's soul starts to crack, and as Odium is about to fill Dalinar's spirit-web with  "passion/hate", Dalinar managed to form a connection with Nohadon, and the power of two bond smith's surge into Dalinar. This explains why Dalinar was able to do so much with the Stormfather's power, why Odium was horrified, and why Dalinar keeps hearing a voice asking to "Unite Them".

I don't think it makes sense that Dalinar ascended to mini-Honour, or that Dalinar is becoming Adonalsium. That seems like too much of a power-jump too quickly. However, I will believe that Dalinar is united in spirit to a past-bondsmith, and that the unique connection there is manifesting something new, something United.

Cultivation protected Dalinar's soul by letting Dalinar bond to Nohadon, and she pulled away that protection just in time for Nohadon to sneak through and fill the cracks. 

Dalinar's command was to, amongst other things, unite the bondsmiths. Odium is horrified to see that in place of Odium's influence, Dalinar is invested with the soul of Nohadon, somehow stitched on after the events of Dalinar's pilgrimage carrying The Way Of Kings. 

 

The Result:   

The Stormfather is baffled, Odium is horrified, and likely Cultivation is pleased as punch. 

 

Relevant WoBs:

Q:  "Nohadon is still alive, right?"

A:  RAFO (By my judgement, Brandon seemed both amused and surprised by the question)

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Peet]

Those parts were interesting to me too. I don't really look at the memory coming back as Cultivation "un-pruning" Dalinar. I see it as: she pruned the memories in the past, now they are just growing back. Also, "Nohadon."

Edited December 7, 2017 by Peet

[Walin he/him]

Great theory. Is it confirmed that Nohadon was a Bondsmith? That would make the most sense, but as he said “Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren” may have indicated that he was a Windrunner. What surges did he use in the vision?

[teknopathetic he/him]

7 minutes ago, Walin said:

Great theory. Is it confirmed that Nohadon was a Bondsmith? That would make the most sense, but as he said “Not all spren are as discerning as honorspren” may have indicated that he was a Windrunner. What surges did he use in the vision?

I suppose the vision of Nohadon in the War Room after the end of the Desolation made me assume he was a bond smith, but we don't actually know for sure. That, and the visions are to teach new potential Bondsmiths about the Desolations, so it would make sense for the visions to show a past Bondsmith rather than only windrunners and edgedancers.

That isn't proof exactly, but I feel safe with that mental leap. 

Edited December 7, 2017 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic he/him]

Also 

when Jasnah was reading the Way Of Kings, and Dalinar isn’t sure what she is reading, Dalinar asks asks to himself “those words, can words give off light?” 

Dalinar sees a manifestation of power in TWoK itself, which is quite strange. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

23 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I don't think it makes sense that Dalinar ascended to mini-Honour, or that Dalinar is becoming Adonalsium. 

While I agree with you about Nohadon, (see my Noahdon thread and the No, We Killed you Thread,) Odium specifically says Dalinar capital A Ascended. 

Quote

“Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend,” Odium said, stepping up behind Taravangian.

OB 122 A Debt Repaid. 

I've mentioned a lot of this in this thread, along with bringing up some past examples of cognitive shadows cognitive Shadows doing similar things with visions that another sharder pointed out to me. There's been a ton of discussion on this over there already, it would probably be best to move this to that thread, or to the "No, We Killed You" one, as this clearly fits into one of those rather neatly.

 

 

[Subvisual Haze]

If you have read Secret History, you see a similar pattern of events occurring here as there.

I like the idea of Nohadon acting like a very patient cognitive shadow "spanner in the works" much like a certain Survivor did.  Whispering into Dalinar's dreams (once Dalinar had more connection to him by reading his book repeatedly and acting more honorably) also follows a similar pattern as the Survivor being able to whisper thoughts to those close to him.

I still wonder if Nohadon was "just" a normal human though.  Something about the way he talks in the last vision feels very familiar but I might just be imagining it.

[teknopathetic he/him]

59 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

If you have read Secret History, you see a similar pattern of events occurring here as there.

I like the idea of Nohadon acting like a very patient cognitive shadow "spanner in the works" much like a certain Survivor did.  Whispering into Dalinar's dreams (once Dalinar had more connection to him by reading his book repeatedly and acting more honorably) also follows a similar pattern as the Survivor being able to whisper thoughts to those close to him.

I still wonder if Nohadon was "just" a normal human though.  Something about the way he talks in the last vision feels very familiar but I might just be imagining it.

Nohadon spoke like a mixture between Hoid and Mr.T, but I have no idea what that implies.

Another note is that we know Dalinar can hear the voices of the dead (the screams), so it would make sense he would be able to hear other dead people or Shadows. 

And also Shallan manages to hear Hoid's voice in her mind, which is still unexplained. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Torero]

First time post, greetings awesome Brandonlorians.

Almost reminds me of Rand being Lews Therin Telamon reborn, Nohadon even ends with -ON, so is Dalinar Nohadon reborn so to say?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Torero

[Subvisual Haze]

35 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Nohadon spoke like a mixture between Hoid and Mr.T, but I have no idea what that implies.

Another note is that we know Dalinar can hear the voices of the dead (the screams), so it would make sense he would be able to hear other dead people or Shadows. 

And also Shallan manages to hear Hoid's voice in her mind, which is still unexplained. 

I thought so too with Hoid!  It seemed like a bit too far-fetched of a guess, but something about the way they talk is strikingly familiar.  Also the mutual propensity for telling stories/parables and letting the listener draw their own conclusions.

Also Hoid has pulled repeated duty as "emergency therapist" for our main characters during their times of crisis.  He delivered just the message/story they needed to hear to Kaladin twice and Shallan once.  The timeliness of this dream with Dalinar seemed similar.

Hoid actually being Nohadon doesn't match much at all though.  We know that Rayse hates him, and he's meddled in Roshar affairs before (to the point where he can draw the Heralds and the Fused know him personally).  Especially in the original vision from Stormfather though Nohadon seems like a pretty mundane human confused by what to do in the world.

I was actually half-wondering if Hoid might have ghost-written The Way of Kings and was a friend of Nohadon?  

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Shallan is extra connected to Hoid, and if there's anyone who's found a way to play with the powers of Connection, I'd guess it's Hoid. Her feelings of closeness to Hoid gives him an opening, the only thing then that's unexplained would be what mechanic he uses to manipulate Connection to talk to her. He's still alive so it should theoretically be even easier for him.

[WardenGiggles]

This is interesting. I'll have to think on it some. When all the gloryspren started streaming towards him, I was almost certain Dalinar was going to somehow reassemble Honor.

[Heir of the Void he/him]

34 minutes ago, WardenGiggles said:

When all the gloryspren started streaming towards him, I was almost certain Dalinar was going to somehow reassemble Honor.

It seems like he might have, kind of. Mr. T said something to the effect of 'you were not supposed to Ascend', with a capital A. This is a technical term in the Cosmere, referring (probably) to a person absorbing enough Investiture to transcend the Physical and Cognitive Realms completely. This is what happens when someone takes up the power of a Shard and becomes a divinity, but also what happened to The Lord Ruler at the Well of Ascension, and Kelsier after he breifly held Preservation.

[Dangerous_Pants]

I think Honor knew he was going to die after a longer losing fight, and set up his power splintering to allow for someone to pick it back up and put it together.   

They reference many times that when Honor was alive the surges were safer to use due to Honor governing them.  And several times it is mentioned that without Honor to do this, humanity risks destroying things.

Honor's power is still around in full force, but largely unclaimed.  As shown in Mistborn that power is easily enough to reshape/make planets at minimum.  But currently it is (mostly) mindless power with specific rules, running more of less on autopilot after the pilot died.  It's hugely dangerous because as Dalinar discovered in Ascending there is very little limit on what can be done with the power and how much of that power can be commanded in the right situation.  

Also, I definitely think Nohadon is still alive.  Not only could cognitive shadows stick around if they got close enough to Ascending (i.e. Kesler), Odium has demonstrated a shard can make dead mortals stick around in the cognitive realm as long as is needed.  While he uses it for his own ends, what would prevent other Shards from doing that for their key players as well, assuming the key players consented?  Or hell, why couldn't Nohadon have just retired after death to the cognitive realm if he at some point Ascended enough  (or was somehow invested enough) to resist the pull to the spiritual realm indefinitely?

 

[Subvisual Haze]

Brilliantly deduced!  I just arrived at this same conclusion last night, but I see you arrived there quicker than I did, so I'll just add a couple related thoughts.

I think Mistborn Secret History provides us the necessary clues of what has occurred with Nohadon.  Just as Kelsier's shadow was preserved from passing Beyond by Preservation, I believe Honor did the same to Nohadon's shadow.  Kelsier also gives us important clues about the ability of shadows to communicate with and impact persons in the spiritual realm.  When Kel's shadow touches another with cracks in their spiritweb (mostly crazy people) they can faintly hear whispers or vague impressions.

Quote

"You can hear me," Kelsier said.

The figured jumped again. "damnation whispers," he said. "Geddoutta me head!"

After repeated attempts to communicate with other skaa, Keslier notes:

Quote

Kelsier watched for signs of madness or raving. He'd confirmed that those types could often hear him, thought it didn't always require obvious madness. Many seemed unable to make out his specific words, but instead heard him as phantom whispers. Impressions.

Later Kelsier is better able to communicate more complex whispers and thoughts to Spook and Vin.  This seems to be related to him having a closer spiritual connection to them, and also their spirit being progressively more "wounded".

I mention all of this backstory because I think a very similar situation is occurring with Nohadon.  As the philosophical founder of the Knights Radiant and author of The Way of Kings, one imagines Honor would have granted a request by Nohadon to be preserved so that his shadow could continue to aid in the struggle with Odium.  It's hard to guess what Nohadon's shadow has been doing in the millennia since his death, but in the current trilogy he has been intensely involved in aiding Dalinar to advance in his oaths and resist Odium.  

Only at the very end, when Dalinar's spirit is nearly broken, is Nohadon finally able to communicate complex thoughts and impressions directly to Dalinar (in a dream, much like Kelsier was able to speak with Spook) and later in the final confrontation with Odium with "always the next step".  It stands to reason that he was trying to communicate these thoughts to Dalinar all along, however due to Dalinar's un-wounded soul (Cultivation's boon/blessing), only the vaguest whispers like "Unite Them" were able to get through.  Subconsciously he likely communicated other thoughts to Dalinar, for example Dalinar stating that "Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a person who is in the process of changing" (which sounds exactly like the kind of saying historical Nohadon would say!), and later receiving the same line back verbatim in his dream.

So why was Nohadon constantly whispering "Unite Them"?  Because he was trying to speed Dalinar through his Bondsmith oaths to better oppose Odium!  "Unite Them" is probably the best 2 word hint you could give a person of the 2nd Bondsmith oath "I will unite instead of divide. I will bring men together."  One can humorously imagine poor Nohadon's shadow repeatedly yelling the words of the oath at Dalinar for several years while Dalinar mulls over who exactly he should unite, instead of just stating out loud his oath to unite men! 

Even better, check out this brief insertion in Dalinar's thoughts in Chapter 12 of Oathbringer before talking to Queen Fen. 

Quote

"Your Majesty," Dalinar said, clasping his hands behind his back and pacing the stage at the center of the seats.  Do better.  Unite them. "I send you greetings from Urithiru..."

Italics are used both to express a character's internal thoughts as well as whispered thoughts from shards/Kelsier.  The italicized portion here is Nohadon cluing Dalinar into his 3rd Bondsmith oath!  "Do Better" is a two word clue towards "I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."   (I only caught this because Kindle let me quickly search the book for "unite them"