[OB] Unpopular Opinion: Elhokar

[Fifth of Daybreak]

25 minutes ago, Willow said:

Dalinar, you already hanged the Parshendi leaders in retribution, did you forget?

I mean...all things considered, it's possible he was never sober enough to be aware. 

[Willow]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I mean...all things considered, it's possible he was never sober enough to be aware. 

Hmmm. He did send soldiers after the Parshendi (cavalry, Jasnah said it was very expensive when they were destroyed), so he must've been aware enough to do that, at least?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, Willow said:

Hmmm. He did send soldiers after the Parshendi (cavalry, Jasnah said it was very expensive when they were destroyed), so he must've been aware enough to do that, at least?

Good catch. It did say it had been several hours at that point too, I doubt he kept drinking. I mean, he could have done those things drunk, but it seems less likely.  Perhaps he just thought they had a king beyond those leaders?

[Willow]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Good catch. It did say it had been several hours at that point too, I doubt he kept drinking. I mean, he could have done those things drunk, but it seems less likely.  Perhaps he just thought they had a king beyond those leaders?

They might not have even realized that those were the Parshendi leaders. I don't think the Alethi elite would ever sacrifice themselves like this (besides that, leaving such a power vacuum might easily lead to war in Alethkar). They could think the Parshendi sacrificed some mid-level people, like ambassadors or messengers, while the king escapes in disguise? They might not understand having a council with representatives from the population as leaders either. It's mentioned at several points that basically no one every bothered researching the Parshendi/Listeners to the point that no one ever noticed half of the warriors were female.. so yeah I wouldn't be surprised if the Alethi thought there was a secret Listener king.

[Lightning]

6 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Honestly, I think you did a better job of summarizing what my feelings are here than I did. 

 

My original phrase, that he doesn't deserve redemption, in retrospect with the other posts here, was poorly chosen. I was looking forward to his redemption prior to this book, but he failed to learn and grow quickly enough to have earned his redemption before his time came.

 

I'd say yes and no.  Let me wax a little philosophical (and also take "redemption" to its literal limit).

Those sentiments were are actually quite accurate, in my opinion, because nobody deserves redemption.  Nobody earns redemption.

Sure, you, me, Elhokar, or anyone else could try to pay off the debts we've incurred in our lives, but we'll fail.  Especially when it involves taking the life of another; it just can't be undone.

Redemption must be bought by someone else, usually the only one who can pay for our past misdeeds (namely God).  The question isn't whether someone earns their redemption, it is what they do with the opportunity given to them to change.  We leave it to God to make things right, in the end; and only expect people to do the best they can with what they have at the moment.  (We pay what we can, and forgive the 100 pence debts.  God pays the 1000 talent debts we cannot pay.)

That said, I understand you are using redemption in a more limited way, dealing with how a person's actions make us more prone to be forgiving, more trusting.  It is hard to believe in forgiveness when someone isn't changed yet.  I think this is a struggle for us, not only in Elhokar's case, but in our daily lives.  We want the bad guys to lose, and lose big.  We aren't rooting for Moash, or our neighbor across the street who offended us, to find forgiveness.  We want justice.

Thus, this not only says a lot about where Elhokar was (and as another poster says; the tragedy of his early demise, when it looked like he was changing), but also where WE are.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Lightning

[Govir]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Is it weird that I absolutely loved this part? Probably a little weird. Idk, I love Moash's story. He's 1000x more interesting this book than he was last book.

Nope not weird. I loved the scene, but hated the action (if that makes sense). I hate the character of Moash, not the story of Moash.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

44 minutes ago, Lightning said:

Let me wax a little philosophical

Only if you'll let me argue semantics back. 

Redemption is the act of redeeming, which, for my purposes and my interpretation in this post, I use the definition "to make amends for, make up for, offset."

Amends, in turn, is defined as "compensation for a loss or an injury, reparations". Reparations is then defined as "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged."

While we can both agree that there are some situations that ultimately cannot be compensated for, I think that the base definition I had in mind when drafting the OP implies that, in a general sense, redemption, from a non-theological standpoint, is something that can be earned through amends of some sort.

This isn't to say that I'm rejecting your ideas or insisting they're wrong. Not at all. I think that you've presented your point quite well, and it's given me a few things to think about. I'm not, generally speaking, a very spiritual person, but I love to engage in this kind of discussion regardless of my personal feelings. 

Anyway, bringing this around to Elhokar. I don't don't dislike Elhokar, and he showed the capacity for changed, and the willingness to start, but he never cashed the check so to speak. For me, showing a willingness to change isn't enough, but actualizing and seizing upon that change would be absolutely vital in order to begin the process of making amends. The first of the 100 pence, to go more in line with your post.

To bring up something I also haven't addressed, o think it's significant that one of the largest demons from his past was never directly addressed to him, and the symbolism here is astounding to me. Elhokar has faced the truth and responsibility for his poor leadership, his horrible wife, his weakness, and his need for help. He's never addressed his past crime and taken responsibility for the death of Moash's grandparents. The one demon that he hasn't faced, that he's actually been sheltered from facing, first by Dalinar originally, then again when Dalinar talks to Kaladin in prison, and then a final time when Kaladin defends Elhokar, comes from his past to strike him down. 

I think there's some beautiful symmetry here with what you said about taking a life. It's the one thing he's yet to face head on and acknowledge within himself, and the physical embodiment of that last sin is what comes to strike him down in his moment of redemption.

38 minutes ago, Govir said:

Nope not weird. I loved the scene, but hated the action (if that makes sense). I hate the character of Moash, not the story of Moash.

Ummm, yeah, there was definitely a visceral part of me that was all "Yeah, Moash! Kings aren't above the law!" It was small, but it was there. 

Moash is such an interesting character to me. Is he so wrong to want to seek vengeance for his family against a man who twisted the law and cost two lives because of it? In most other stories, Moash's storyline could be that of the main protagonist and we'd all cheer him on. Am I supposed to hate him because Elhokar started to change for the better? Do I ignore Moash's recent changes helping the singers from their unfair treatment because of Kaladin's short-sightedness? His teaching the downtrodden to fight? Ultimately, he killed Elhokar on a battlefield, while he was an enemy combatant. Can this even be considered murder? 

[kaellok]

(Just as a note: I'm not sure what you're saying or asking for us in your edit in the first post.  Are you saying you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar is deserving of redemption?  Or that you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar has earned redemption?)

I think that Elhokar is deserving of the redemption arc that he was given.  We see very clearly as far back as WoR that he knows things are wrong and that he isn't the person the nation needs, but he doesn't know how to be that person.  Every action he makes, every sentence he speaks in OB is directed at being the person that is needed, but taking into consideration what will happen when he fails.  Not if; when.  He himself makes that distinction so very, very clear.

How anyone can say that someone who knows that they have done wrong and is actively doing absolutely everything that could possibly be expected of anyone to be better isn't deserving of any redemption at all is shocking to me.  

In comparison, I personally find the Szeth redemption arc to be one that I have a hard time stomaching.  The man willfully and wantonly committed murder and brutality on an unprecedented scale because his religious beliefs demand that he do what a man holding a rock said.  Szeth did not think what he was doing was wrong; he predicted the chaos and devastation that would come.  And he did it anyway.  

For me, if someone cannot recognize what they are doing, I will judge them less harshly than if they can.  Ignorance is not an excuse, but it can often be a mitigating factor.  It can be incredibly difficult to know how to walk the path if there is no guide (or worse, thousands of poor guides).  To know the path, and refuse to walk it?  No matter your intent, no matter your goals, no matter the end result--I will never forgive them.

Was Elhokar's redemption complete?  No.  But I really do believe that he had been acting on it in very real ways throughout the entirety of OB; he had paid the first 100 pence of a 10,000 talent debt to refer to the conversation @Ookla the Obtuse and @Lightning were having.  His debt was so very large and he was ill equipped to pay much of what he owed, but he had definitely shown that he was wanting to pay it to the people who he owed the most--the citizens of his country.  If he hadn't, then he would still be alive, in Urithiru.  

[Govir]

46 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Ummm, yeah, there was definitely a visceral part of me that was all "Yeah, Moash! Kings aren't above the law!" It was small, but it was there. 

Moash is such an interesting character to me. Is he so wrong to want to seek vengeance for his family against a man who twisted the law and cost two lives because of it?

My issue with Moash's vengeance is that it is misplaced. My understanding of his grandparents death is that Roshone convinced Elhokar that Moash's grandparents had done something wrong, Elhokar made a passing judgement that put the grandparents in prison / waiting cells where they died. Elhokar definitely didn't help Moash's grandparents, but there are mitigating factors in the "Roshone affair." 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

7 minutes ago, kaellok said:

(Just as a note: I'm not sure what you're saying or asking for us in your edit in the first post.  Are you saying you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar is deserving of redemption?  Or that you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar has earned redemption?)

My edit isn't a request for you to evaluate, it was an update of the post following some very astute comments that made me realize my poor choice of phrasing was not getting my meaning across in the way I intended.  It was a request to replace any instances of "deserving redemption" in my OP with the phrase "earning redemption" mentally. When I had originally drafted it, I was always mentally adding a 'yet' whenever I put that he didn't deserve it. 

 

11 minutes ago, kaellok said:

I think that Elhokar is deserving of the redemption arc that he was given. 

I agree with this.

 

11 minutes ago, kaellok said:

We see very clearly as far back as WoR that he knows things are wrong and that he isn't the person the nation needs, but he doesn't know how to be that person. 

We also see his motivation for that isn't to become better for the sake of serving more ably, but because he's worried about his image and his legacy.

Quote

“Well, I did ask,” he muttered to himself. “I merely have to win you over as well. I will figure this out. I will be a king to be remembered.”

WoR 80

 

Quote

15 minutes ago, kaellok said:

Every action he makes, every sentence he speaks in OB is directed at being the person that is needed, but taking into consideration what will happen when he fails.

 

Not every action. He has a significant Aesudan blind spot as I have demonstrated in my OP, which led to disaster because he never considered failure in that regard.

 

17 minutes ago, kaellok said:

How anyone can say that someone who knows that they have done wrong and is actively doing absolutely everything that could possibly be expected of anyone to be better isn't deserving of any redemption at all is shocking to me.  

You misunderstood me. I hope my first paragraph in this post clears that up, if not, I hope that you read the posts in between the OP and here which should be more than sufficient to demonstrate that misunderstanding.

 

18 minutes ago, kaellok said:

Szeth did not think what he was doing was wrong; he predicted the chaos and devastation that would come.  And he did it anyway. 

This is simply not true. 

Quote

“There is no greatness in killing,” Szeth said.

“You speak like a kukori. Great men create food and clothing. He who adds is to be revered. I am he who takes away. At least in the killing of men such as these I can pretend to be doing a service.”

“This from the man who nearly toppled one of the greatest kingdoms in Roshar?”

“This from the man who committed one of the most heinous slaughters in Roshar,” Szeth corrected.

He clearly sees what he's doing is wrong, and he thinks he deserves punishment for it as well. 

Quote

“You walk on stone. Why is this? Each Shin I have known calls stone holy, and refuses to set foot on it.”

“It cannot be holy. If it truly were, Master Ki, it would have burned me away long ago.” He nodded to her, then stepped into the Purelake.

OB 92 Water Warm as Blood

 

54 minutes ago, kaellok said:

His debt was so very large and he was ill equipped to pay much of what he owed, but he had definitely shown that he was wanting to pay it to the people who he owed the most--the citizens of his country.  If he hadn't, then he would still be alive, in Urithiru.  

It's not until he swears the first ideal, imo, he's finally dedicated to service to his country. Even swearing fealty to Dalinar had the underhanded motive of giving Elhokar authority of his kingdom back so that he could become a good king. If he was concerned about his citizens, he wouldn't worry about being taught how to be a hero, he'd worry about being taught how to help his people.

 

58 minutes ago, kaellok said:

For me, if someone cannot recognize what they are doing, I will judge them less harshly than if they can.  Ignorance is not an excuse, but it can often be a mitigating factor.

This leads me to believe your earlier statement on Szeth was a typo. I'm going to reply as if that's the case. 

For me, someone who believes that they are condemning themselves to eternal damnation by following a path they believe is right and not straying from that path is far more mitigating than ignorance in a tit for tat scenario, but Elhokar is not ignorant, he's willfully  ignorant. He deceives himself in order to protect his ego, and in doing so he gets those he has a duty to protect hurt. That's pretty egregious in my book, to fail in your duty because of vanity and ego.

46 minutes ago, Govir said:

Elhokar made a passing judgement that put the grandparents in prison / waiting cells where they died. Elhokar definitely didn't help Moash's grandparents, but there are mitigating factors in the "Roshone affair." 

I agree, and I think it's strange that Moash never brings it up. I think Brandon is underplaying this to make it a bigger moment when Kaladin has to step in and confront Moash in Hearthstone. 

[kaellok]

@Ookla the Obtuse

Thanks for the clarification!  My own post evolved a bit as I was reading yours and some replies, but I kinda started off with the wrong assumption and then tried to build backward to be compatible with both.

Towards Szeth, that was an embarrassing typo; I meant to say that he believed what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway.  

I disagree with your interpretation of Elhokar being willfully ignorant, though.  True, he is king, but hardly a powerful one.  Each Highprince has a substantial portion of power and influence over shaping the nation, irregardless of what the king wants or demands.  Elhokar has likely been surrounded since birth by those that want to use his position for their own gain.  It has been the rare occasion where Elhokar is able to see that a different path is even possible to be walked.

I don't want to derail the thread into talking about Szeth too much more, as I was only mentioning him to show an arc where I simply do not believe that it is possible for him to ever earn the redemption that it is fairly clear (storytelling wise) we will see an attempt at.  Already the gears have been set in motion for the arc to continue forth.  

The contrast I see with Szeth and Elhokar is that one of them knows the proper path, but allows himself to be diverted onto a path that is wrong or dangerous with terrible outcomes for the entire world--and to me, it matters not what those reasons are.  Elhokar is only barely beginning to be aware that that proper path exists, and wants to walk it.  Perhaps he wants to for the wrong reasons, especially at first (as evidenced by the quote you share from WoR), but by OB it is fairly clear that he thinks he is doing what is best for his people.  Even with his huge blind-spot of Aesudan, even though he is wrong, he still thinks what he is doing is right--and because he does not trust himself, he has laid out a contingency plan to see to it that the right thing is done regardless.  That, more than anything, to me shows that he has earned at least the benefit of the doubt of redemption.   

Did he succeed in it?  Was he done?  Was there more that he could or should have done?  Yes.  Moash decided to not let him, though, and story-wise, this was the right decision.  

[Fifth of Daybreak]

4 minutes ago, kaellok said:

That, more than anything, to me shows that he has earned at least the benefit of the doubt of redemption.   

Did he succeed in it?  Was he done?  Was there more that he could or should have done?  Yes.  Moash decided to not let him, though, and story-wise, this was the right decision. 

I think we're pretty much in full agreement here,for Szeth, we'll probably have to agree to disagree. While he was Truthless, (or believed himself to be) he believed that he was on the only true path left for him, and walked it with exactness. It may not the be the capital T true path, but knowing an action to be damaging to yourself, believing it to be evil, and subjecting yourself to it because, in spite of that knowledge, you truly believe it is the right thing to do, is far removed from Szeth knowing the right path and refusing to walk it. 

Brandon has primed us incredibly early to turn on Honor. Szeth is the most Honorable character in the books, he's kept his oaths to the letter. Yet the most Honorable character in the books has also committed wholesale slaughter on a scale never before seen on Roshar. Honor without Passion is cold and detached, whereas as Passion without Honor is zealous fervor. We're seeing characters on both ends of the spectrum start to move closer to each other, from Kaladin's unbridled passion refining into the disciplined Radiant we're seeing more of, to Jasnah's slow March towards warmth. Lift needs Discipline, Szeth needs Passion. Without the other to give them context, they're both empty husks.

[Lord Spiral]

With what we know of Dalinar's past, with what Elhokar knew about Dalinar for most of his life, it makes it all the more sense why Elhokar would have entertained the idea of Dalinar being a possible traitor.

Hey, fun thing to do: read all the Blackthorn RAGE flashbacks. Then go back and read the bit where Dalinar starts beating the rust out of Elhokar. Elhokar must be thinking that the drunken bloodthirsty maniac is back. It makes his timidity around Dalinar in WoR all the more logical. And his concern for his mother? Warranted concern for her safety rather than just concern over impropriety.

Am I the only one who thinks that the attempt on Dalinar was not a trick but Sadeas and Gavilar trying to dispose of a warlord general they no longer have a use for?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Hey, fun thing to do: read all the Blackthorn RAGE flashbacks.

Like the one where he commits to never do anything to try to usurp the throne 29 years prior to the present before Elhokar is even born? The scene where he gifts Gavilar the Shards Elhokar bears to this day? Dalinar gave him his shards,now he's going to usurp the kingdom?

His entire life has been devoted to the Kholin house. If you want me to buy your argument, I'm going to need some specific examples from.the cited text.

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Elhokar must be thinking that the drunken bloodthirsty maniac is back.

Is Drunk Dalinar back or bloodthirsty maniac Dalinar? They're two very distinct people. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

It makes his timidity around Dalinar in WoR all the more logical.

In my experience, most entitled egos become very timid around those who cause them to become disillusioned. 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

And his concern for his mother? Warranted concern for her safety rather than just concern over impropriety.

I literally quoted the lines where Elhokar flat out stated that his concern was for his reputation. Dalinar has never once physically abused his family before this. What evidence does Elhokar have to be concerned for her safety?

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Am I the only one who thinks that the attempt on Dalinar was not a trick but Sadeas and Gavilar trying to dispose of a warlord general they no longer have a use for?

How would they have allied with the Rift, and what would be the point of burning it to the ground? Why would they risk his Shards in enemy hands like this instead of their own soldiers? Why would the uniforms have been off enough to warn Dalinar? Why would Sadeas have arrived almost in time to foil the plot? Why not have two shardbearers there to finish the job when one of the alleged conspirators literally says he doesn't think a rockslide could kill Dalinar before he has Plate? Too many holes.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Lord Spiral]

Elhokar doesn't know what Dalinar's motivations are. What is distinct to us from a POV narrative might not be clear to other characters in world. (Hence the problems forming the coalition). Especially Elhokar who was very paranoid and not exactly the most shrewd of people. Most of my points aren't strong and aren't logical from an informed perspective but that's the point. Elhokar isn't informed about the exact details. Just the gossip everyone is saying.

And as for Dalinar swearing not to covet the throne, does anyone actually know about that? I thought he kept that he almost walked up to his brother and wanted to kill him a secret? (If only for a moment during the Thrill).

As for the Dalinar rockslide assassination...

So Dalinar is really effective at winning battles, to say the least. Obvious decision for Sadeas is to suggest to Gavilar to send Dalinar to fight on the border. If Dalinar is successful, great, good stuff for the kingdom. If the enemies manage to kill him, we'll just send a bigger force to destroy them in retribution and Dalinar is dealt with. As an added benefit to having Dalinar isolated on the border, he isn't making political allies (not that he had the savvy for it anyway) and is growing distant to the king while Sadeas grows more invaluable as his most trusted advisor.

Years later, with no more border wars left to fight Sadeas would fear a more experienced and perhaps wiser Dalinar returning to replace Sadeas as Gavilar's most trusted advisor.

With Sadeas being Sadeas, he was double dipping and profiting from both sides in the Rift rebellion. He promises them that he will give them a chance to claim revenge on Dalinar. Dalinar is sent to deal with the Rift. Sadeas sets it up so there is an opportunity to catch him unaware with the hint that a traitor just left and he could catch him if he was fast.

So a small force chase down the traitors and fall in to the rockslide trap. For the most part this works, unfortunately, a mostly dead Dalinar is still enough of a threat to deal with the small force left to finish him off and retrieve the Shards.

Had this worked, Sadeas, arriving early, takes control of Dalinar's army and then uses both to destroy the Rift as retribution for killing a *dear* friend and the king's brother.

If he did negotiate the shards away, he claims them back after defeating the Rift. Best case for them, they wouldn't have enough Shardplate to do anything with and an unbonded Shardblade doesn't mean much (shards can't hold ground) when you have 2 armies to throw at them. Worst case, Sadeas sends some troops to chase the retrieval team (if not his) before they can rejoin their army.

Unfortunately for Sadeas, Dalinar survived. There is a chance though. Dalinar is currently angry enough to want the whole city killed and gives Sadeas the orders. Sadeas takes advantage of this order since he knows Dalinar would choose a softer approach once he calms down and sees how to destroy the entire city. Including any evidence of his betrayal (although I am sure all supplies would be unmarked, there are now no survivors to speak their word, and fortunately Dalinar dismissed any truth of Sadeas' betrayal). And of course, this terrible thing which Dalinar now regrets and was disgusted by was all by Dalinar's order, an order he specifically authorised over the king's order to hold back. "But don't worry, Sadeas has your back. We'll tell Gavilar you had no choice." That the death of his wife sent him into an alcoholic depression (is that the right phrasing?) practically killed Dalinar and took him out of the running for any strong political power, allowing Sadeas to remain number 1.

I mentioned Gavilar earlier and that's something else. Maybe he would have been okay with taking out Dalinar once he fulfilled his purpose as he seemed to be very involved with The Sons of Honor and we're only slowly learning just how untrue Dalinar's perfect vision of Gavilar was. But I don't think he was involved in my Sadeas conspiracy, at least not Rift part. The isolation of a potential threat? seems like standard politicking.

(Basically everyone else is playing Lord of the Rings but Sadeas is playing Game of Thrones).

I'm sure there are plenty of holes with this theory. I initially took the too neat uniforms to mean that they were authentic uniforms just not Sadeas' actual troops. Or potentially soldiers from Amaram's unit.* (I can't remember where Amaram was narratively at this point. ) I take the rockslide comment to be sarcasm and not a literal belief. It would help if I had a physical book with me to pull quotes from or look at passages and check exact wordings.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

24 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

Most of my points aren't strong and aren't logical from an informed perspective but that's the point. Elhokar isn't informed about the exact details. Just the gossip everyone is saying.

Elhokar is the closest person to Dalinar outside of his two sons. He's known him hid whole life. Dalinar gifted him his shards before he was born. Dalinar's men patrol for him, guard for him. Dalinar is one of the most accomplished warriors in the world and no one knows shardplate better than he does. Ru order about Dalinar are that he's weak, not ambitious, and he's never been subtle. Elhokar has all the evidence he needs. It literally takes Dalinar demonstrating that Elhokar is a babe in his hands to disabuse Elhokar if the idea that Dalinar wants to kill him. 

 

50 minutes ago, Lord Spiral said:

As for the Dalinar rockslide assassination...

For me, the theory dies here.

Quote

“We need to get you some Shards, my friend.”

“To protect me?”

“Protect you? Storms, Dalinar, at this point I’m not certain a rockslide could kill you. No, it just makes the rest of us look bad when you accomplish what you do while practically unarmed!”

yes it's a joke, but you don't go from saying "Dang son, I don't think a rockslide could kill you you're so good. We need to get you some magic armor so you stop making me look bad" to "I'm going to try to kill him inside his magic armor with a rockslide" when his career has only become a thousand times more accomplished in the meantime. 

But there are the other holes. The uniforms aren't correct. 

Quote

He saw no sign of a Shardbearer as the enemy gathered above. And … those uniforms … 

He blinked. That … that was wrong.

Sadeas wouldn't fake his own uniforms incorrectly. 

They are definitely Rifters.

Quote

He heard voices—men picking through the wreckage of the rockslide. He could make out their nasal accent. Rifters.

Also, why would Sadeas implicate himself? Why not another Highprince Rival? There's sooooooooo much less risk that way and the plan works exactly the same as long as they have a shardbearer, and there's the added bonus of casting suspicions on a rival instead of on yourself.

 

There's twelve years between when Gavilar sends Dalinar to fight on the border and when he attacks the Rift. That's a long time for this con, and for Gavilar to start it the day Adolin is born? Unlikely.

[Lightning]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Only if you'll let me argue semantics back. 

Redemption is the act of redeeming, which, for my purposes and my interpretation in this post, I use the definition "to make amends for, make up for, offset."

Amends, in turn, is defined as "compensation for a loss or an injury, reparations". Reparations is then defined as "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged."

While we can both agree that there are some situations that ultimately cannot be compensated for, I think that the base definition I had in mind when drafting the OP implies that, in a general sense, redemption, from a non-theological standpoint, is something that can be earned through amends of some sort.

I agree with all of this (even in the theological setting).  Great way of putting it!

Quote

To bring up something I also haven't addressed, o think it's significant that one of the largest demons from his past was never directly addressed to him, and the symbolism here is astounding to me. Elhokar has faced the truth and responsibility for his poor leadership, his horrible wife, his weakness, and his need for help. He's never addressed his past crime and taken responsibility for the death of Moash's grandparents. The one demon that he hasn't faced, that he's actually been sheltered from facing, first by Dalinar originally, then again when Dalinar talks to Kaladin in prison, and then a final time when Kaladin defends Elhokar, comes from his past to strike him down. 

I think there's some beautiful symmetry here with what you said about taking a life. It's the one thing he's yet to face head on and acknowledge within himself, and the physical embodiment of that last sin is what comes to strike him down in his moment of redemption.

I agree.  I think you bring up an interesting point as well: we expect people to face their failings in order to be redeemed.  But we don't expect them to do it all at once, and we don't expect them not to fall again in the process (ergo Dalinar's 3rd oath).  It is sadly poetic that Elhokar had to face Moash's wrath, for an act he never made reparations for.  Can we look past that, as Elhokar is starting to find his way, or must we insist on the tragic justice of it all?

My take: I think it is doubly sad because by seeking vengeance, Moash destroyed a man seeking redemption, and also betrayed his friend, and contributed to more pain in the world.  That's often how vengeance works, it just adds more misery, even if it might look justified.

[Calyx]

Yeah, there is no way Moash comes out of this looking good. I can't wait until someone kills him.

[Blacksmithki]

I'm not so much one for long written arguments to convince people, but I personally don't see Elhokar swearing the first oath as "redemption" and requiring him to have earned it.

I see it more as a step along the long path to redemption and sort of a tool to allow him to redeem himself instead of being redemption in itself and therefore not requiring him to have completely earned redemption.

I understand that this would have been the end of a redemption arc, but personally I don't see stuff in those arcs, but I understand in a way it does equal redemption, just not in the way I look at stuff like this.

Still best option for the story of course, utterly devastating.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Nepene]

17 hours ago, Willow said:

I think this was more of a stab at keeping all the highprinces pointed in the same direction. That said, I always found this odd in WoK, when Dalinar attempts to figure out different reparations the Parshendi have to make to be forgiven. One of them is 'maybe their king, delivered to us for execution?' Dalinar, you already hanged the Parshendi leaders in retribution, did you forget?

I don't agree with these two statements at al. Yes, technically the events here you describe happened, but you seem to view them through the most negative light possible. People more knowledgeable than me in psychology have discussed this, but Kaladin had a very human (flight, fight, freeze) response that actually happens to soldiers (Tukks even talked about it during one of Kaladin's flashbacks). Combined with his depression, and his stormlight running out, all the circumstances were against him.

Shallan killed her mother in self-defense. Her father had just killed her stepmother, and nearly killed her brother. Saying she 'slaughtered' her parents is very inaccurate.

And people have defended Elhokar as well.

These are subjective views of generally non super evil or super good acts. Spren aren't morality spren.

[Stark]

On 12/5/2017 at 3:14 PM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Even then, it takes some of Shallan's transformation magic to fully complete the transformation. 

Not intending to derail this thread, but a thought occurred to me:  How many people is Shallan going to get killed this way, by drawing them as an idealized version of themselves that they want to be?  First Bluth as a soldier who doesn't hate himself, then Elhokar as a king who leads.  Both were given sketches from Shallan of the person they could be, and both died not long after, sketch in hand, trying to be that person.

 

Please note: I do not actually blame Shallan for the deaths of Bluth or Elhokar.  I do not visualize her going up to someone and saying "We need a hero.  This is the hero you could be, if you tried." *Hands sketch* "Now, go be a hero in that impossible, almost suicidal situation, we'll talk if you survive."  I love that she showed them who they could be and helped them transform, like with her squires.  I find it tragic that they died trying to transform, with the transformation incomplete.  But damnation if we aren't starting a pattern here, of people dying sketch in hand.  And speaking of patterns, what does Pattern think of these killer lies?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

51 minutes ago, Stark said:

Not intending to derail this thread, but a thought occurred to me:  How many people is Shallan going to get killed this way, by drawing them as an idealized version of themselves that they want to be?  First Bluth as a soldier who doesn't hate himself, then Elhokar as a king who leads.  Both were given sketches from Shallan of the person they could be, and both died not long after, sketch in hand, trying to be that person.

Well, I think it's important to note that neither of them were given sketches. Bluth actually straight up steals his sketch, and Elhokar specifically asks to keep her sketch after she wants to draw him for her collection. They sought out the sketches. 

I think you might be interested in this topic, which goes in-depth into how that kind of stuff works. Basically, we came to the conclusion that they won' be affected by her influence unless they see themselves as being that person and want to make that change. It's a matter of perception, and changing that internal perception enough to allow that investiture to make a change take a firm hold.