[OB] Guards in Kholinar

[Lyncias]

So in Kholinar, there was a bunch of guards that got locked away and the time flow for them is different.

Quote

"Weeks?" Sidin said. "Surely it’s only been a few days, Brightlord." He scratched at a beard that seemed to argue with that sentiment. "We’ve only eaten…what, three times since being thrown in here?"

 

Bendalloy from Scadrial is know to be able to compact time. Is there a thread about this or did anyone ask Brandon about this? Maybe I'm stretching it but none of the Unmades seemed to be able to control time and we know there are Scadrial worldhoppers on Roshar. Any thoughts??

Edited December 4, 2017 by Lyncias

[zpoly]

Very interesting theory. My guess is it would be chromium not bendalloy. I wouldn't say it's such a stretch that the unmade can alter time, but this theory is definitely interesting.

[Wandering Investor]

I feel like time bending would be significant enough to be mentioned before. Totally possible it was a secret, or simply lost to time, but I find that slightly unlikely. Also, why would Odium's force expend the effort of bending time for prisoners?

Instead, I think it has to deal with the Heart of Revel. The inner circle of members seemed pretty content to due their crawl, and not something they would stop doing, even to eat. Additionally, consider the number of Revel members and palace guards. That's a lot of people to feed, without any obvious sources of food. I propose that Ashertmarn (the Heart of Revel), is capable of sustaining those under its influence. 

The other possibly being the Palace had large reserves saved up, and the soldiers resisted enough to not join the revel, but not enough to note the passing of time or remember how much they ate. But again, why would the guards bother feeding the prisoners, if that were the case?

In any case, something really weird seems to be going on there.

EDIT: Theory evolved to be Ashertmarn prevents people from decaying, as well as food, as shown by people living for weeks while only eating a few meals, and food that doesn't seem to be decaying. Ashertnmarn also produces the Call of the Revel which influences people's minds. The more under the influence you are, the greater the effects. Effects include an intense desire to join the Revel by engaging in various forms of overindulgence and by altering one's perception of time, as shown by the guards-turned-prisoners, and their thinking days had pasted when in reality it was weeks.

The Call of the Revel and Ashertmarn's anti-decay field may be two separate effects. To test, one would have to be near Ashertmarn for an extended period of time and resist the Call of the Revel. Goodluck with that...

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

This is probably relevant as well:

Quote

“Keep alert,” Kaladin whispered, then began picking through the room. He passed the remnants of lavish meals only partially eaten. Pieces of fruit each with a single bite taken out of them. Cakes and pastries. Candied meats on sticks. It looked like it should have rotted, based on the decayspren he noticed, but it hadn’t.

84 The One You Can Save

 

[Yata he/him]

@Lyncias the idea is interesting also if unlikely.

By the way, probably they will need Cadmius instead of Bendalloy

[Wandering Investor]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

This is probably relevant as well:

 

 

Nice catch, I forgot about that. This shows some form of distortion in the palace related to.... decaying? Preventing the food, the prisoners, and the revelers from decaying.

Could this mean Ashertmarn is a corrupted decay spren, or something along those lines, similar to how the Midnight Mother is a weird creation spren?

Another point against the time-bending that I thought of is, Shallan enters the palace and oathgate area and doesn't notice coming out later than would be expected. If the time-bending was enough to keep the prisoners alive for weeks, then Shallan likely would have noticed something.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[The One Who Connects he/him]

34 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Another point against the time-bending that I thought of is, Shallan enters the palace and oathgate area and doesn't notice coming out later than would be expected. If the time-bending was enough to keep the prisoners alive for weeks, then Shallan likely would have noticed something.

Not necessarily. Radiants don't feel the Thrill(as much).

Quote

theblackthorne
Given their reputation for docility and Szeth's internal monologues, am I right in thinking that the Shin do not feel The Thrill? If so, is this due to the protection of Cultivation or sheer distance from Nergaoul?

Brandon Sanderson
Distance is the big factor here, though there are cultural reasons for things as well. In addition, being very close to something tied to Honor reduces the effects of things like the Thrill. As for the Shin culture, you'll find a great deal in the next three books, so I'd rather not say much now.

The effects of Revel could be considered as "like the Thrill," since they are both from the Unmade. KR Spren are a mix of H&C Investiture, so they would count as at least somewhat "tied to Honor."

[Wandering Investor]

@The One Who Connects

ooo I haven't seen that before, that's interesting. Also explains the Tower's protection.

But it also isn't relevant to the time-bending point. Time manipulation in the cosmere has been shown to occur in a bubble. Shallan would still have been subject to the bubble and noticed getting out later than expected if that were the case. On the other hand, if the Revel influences time from person to person, the guards would have been experiencing time differently than Shallan would have, and that would likely have been noticed.

Instead, I think Ashertmarn is preventing the palace, and people/food/(maybe goods?) in it, from decaying. Additionally, the call of the Revel is likely influencing people's perception of time, instead of the timeline itself.

An additional note I just realized, the guard has a full beard. This conflicts with time manipulation and supports the Revel affecting the guards' perception of time. Unless he had it before, but why would the book draw attention to the beard then?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Wandering Investor said:

the call of the Revel is likely influencing people's perception of time, instead of the timeline itself.

hadn't considered it like that(hadn't put much thought in at all yet, to be honest), but I really like this. All sorts of things do a number on your perception on time(like drowsiness, drug highs, solitude, etc..) so a magical one too isn't that unthinkable.

Also, I really like "Call of the Revel." Was that in the book, or did you come up with that one on your own?

3 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

if the Revel influences time from person to person, the guards would have been experiencing time differently than Shallan would have, and that would likely have been noticed.

If we use the "influences perception of time," thing your proposed, wouldn't there still have been something to note between their perception and Shallan's? Something akin to the "weeks? it's been days." line that started this thread, except it'd be "hours vs minutes" (Come to think of it, how long were Shallan and Co actually there?)

[Wandering Investor]

The characters made reference to the Revel calling them, but I don't remember if they specifically named it the Call of the Revel. 

23 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

If we use the "influences perception of time," thing your proposed, wouldn't there still have been something to note between their perception and Shallan's? Something akin to the "weeks? it's been days." line that started this thread, except it'd be "hours vs minutes" (Come to think of it, how long were Shallan and Co actually there?)

The perception of time would have been affected by a person's level of influence from the Revel. To explain, the guards/prisoners would be able to act "normally", but wouldn't necessarily recall how long they'd be there, when they last ate, etc. Basically a magical high of some kind. Shallan, on the other hand, wasn't under the influence of the Revel by this point, so she would have been able to act normally, remember how long she'd been there, and still wouldn't have been able to notice the guards' perception of time.

Then again, the guards aren't really reveling, so I don't' know what their deal is. Ashertmarn could still be preventing them from decaying, but wouldn't explain their behavior. There's a lot of questionable stuff happening at the palace.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[The One Who Connects he/him]

33 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

remember how long she'd been there, and still wouldn't have been able to notice the guards' perception of time.

I meant it in the sense that... Ignore this. I was using an inaccurate assumption.

33 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

There's a lot of questionable stuff happening at the palace.

That's certainly one way to put it. (And will probably become par for the course as time goes on.)

33 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

The characters made reference to the Revel calling them, but I don't remember if they specifically named it the Call of the Revel. 

Alright. For the time being, tentatively crediting you for the phrase if/when I use it in the future.

Edited December 4, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

23 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Alright. For the time being, tentatively crediting you for the phrase if/when I use it in the future

A search for the phrase didn't bring anything up in OB. I think it's a great term as well. 

 

Thanks @Wandering Investor

[Wandering Investor]

Whoop

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

There were three Unmade chilling in Kholinar at the time, remember, but this doesn’t seem like the work of any of them in particular. Ashertmarn is most likely the source of the weird food, but I thought food did decay on the Oathgate platform. Sja-Anat doesn’t seem like she has a hand in this, except maybe messing with the decayspren? The only other option is that it could be Yelig-Nar, but this doesn’t fit with what we know of him either. I bet it has something to do with the darkness that was over the palace at the time, whichever Unmade created that. 

[Wandering Investor]

The darkness could be due to a presence of an unmade, any unmade, not just a specific one. Although if it is a specific unmade, I would guess Ashertmarn due to his area of influence, while the other two seem more specific in their powers. 

I do wonder if Sja-Anat's tampering with spren had any impact. I think spren are attracted to things and don't cause them. But if this idea is wrong and it is the other way around, Sja-Anat's corruption of the decayspren may be preventing food from decaying. But I find this unlikely, as it would mean food not decaying throughout the city due to the spread of the spren, and other corrupted spren would no longer be doing their Intents, which would cause other oddities.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Wandering Investor

[Ryder]

I think it's possible that time manipulation is a surge of some sort.  Maybe it's only granted by certain types of voidspren.  Moelach sends visions of the future.  Nightform does as well:

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"Nightform predicting what will be, / The form of shadows, mind to foresee. / As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. / A new storm will come, someday to break. / A new storm a new world to make. / A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens."

Glys, having been corrupted by Sja-anat, allows Renarin to see the future, and as noted in this thread something in the Kholinar palace seems to be messing with time in a weird way.  My main evidence for time being a surge is this quote from the Stormfather in OB chapter 16:

Quote

He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time.

 

[Wandering Investor]

Seeing the future and manipulating the fundamental force of time are two very different things.

As time isn't normally counted among the surges of the world by in book characters, and none of the Radiant surges really seem to involve time in any way, I doubt time manipulation is possible for surgebinders. Radiants anyways. It would be pretty awesome though.

[soyperson]

In the original Double Eye chart from ~2003, (enclosed in the spoiler box below) KHOR (Time) was a Surge (assuming they were called surges in that phase of development). Probably not important or relevant but something I thought interesting re: time and surges.

Spoiler