[OB] Shallan Davar disgust thread

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Bliev said:

[Side note: I could probably write an essay on how the only female main viewpoint character of SA is also often the most vocally hated because she says mean things to people's fav guy, in her quest to navigate a crappy, patriarchal, bigoted culture (and, hey, hello look around at our culture...not that different, imo). "Sure, yeah, she's been through trauma, has been sheltered and raised in a horrific environment and never been taught differently, but she also says mean things about dark-eyes" is a take, I guess. Alethi culture is horrible. And she embodies some of that. But so does Kal. So does Adolin. So does Jasnah and all the Alethi characters. I just think we should be careful in who we allow to grow and who we try to understand.] 

Completely irreverent Lift is my third favorite character ever.

 

[Negative_Null They/Them]

3 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I mean...are there non-problematic SA characters? Characters who are morally unambiguous? I'd like to see them. I remember making the argument that Kal is terribly self-serving and petty for his treatment of Tarah and how he acted with her, and got blasted for it. Why? Because people identify with Kal! So they try to work themselves into understanding why he does what he does. Same with Dalinar and his warmongering. Which is great! It's one of the best things about reading. But the same should be used for Shallan. And it isn't always, imho.  

[Side note: I could probably write an essay on how the only female main viewpoint character of SA is also often the most vocally hated because she says mean things to people's fav guy, in her quest to navigate a crappy, patriarchal, bigoted culture (and, hey, hello look around at our culture...not that different, imo). "Sure, yeah, she's been through trauma, has been sheltered and raised in a horrific environment and never been taught differently, but she also says mean things about dark-eyes" is a take, I guess. Alethi culture is horrible. And she embodies some of that. But so does Kal. So does Adolin. So does Jasnah and all the Alethi characters. I just think we should be careful in who we allow to grow and who we try to understand.] 

That's all pretty true. I think the point many people are saying is that she doesn't seem to be showing any growth (which is the same reason people hate Moash). Kal is working through his depression, Dalinar is working to forgive himself, heck, Teft is pushing through an addiction, Renarin is getting self-confidence, Jasnah has some kind of trauma and is trying to feel comfortable with her emotions, and whoo boy does Szeth have problems. But each of them are deliberately making strides in those areas. All of Shallan's character growth so far is in "dissociating myself from reality using elaborate fantasies" part, which, while interesting, doesn't really make her a better person at all. 

I don't agree with this take, but the take I have seen is that Shallan's "main problem" really doesn't matter, it's just her having a break down in private. I think that's wrong, but I can see where it comes from. When Kaladin falls into depression, everyone around him notices and is impacted. Shallan only really has problems when she's alone, so it's easy to feel like she doesn't impact people. This point I understand, but I don't agree with.

The other point is one I don't understand at all, which is that somehow her being an intolerant elitist is a bigger character flaw than anyone else in the series. "Yeah, Dalinar and Szeth can be forgiven for murdering hundreds of people, but Shallan's kind of mean on purpose." Yes, she should be aware of how she's hurting people, yes she has a problem seeing other people as humans, but that doesn't mean that she's for some reason morally corrupt.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Negative_Null said:

The other point is one I don't understand at all, which is that somehow her being an intolerant elitist is a bigger character flaw than anyone else in the series. "Yeah, Dalinar and Szeth can be forgiven for murdering hundreds of people, but Shallan's kind of mean on purpose." Yes, she should be aware of how she's hurting people, yes she has a problem seeing other people as humans, but that doesn't mean that she's for some reason morally corrupt.

I don't get it either, those are the least of her problems.

[kaellok he/him]

On 9/14/2020 at 10:05 AM, Negative_Null said:

The other point is one I don't understand at all, which is that somehow her being an intolerant elitist is a bigger character flaw than anyone else in the series. "Yeah, Dalinar and Szeth can be forgiven for murdering hundreds of people, but Shallan's kind of mean on purpose." Yes, she should be aware of how she's hurting people, yes she has a problem seeing other people as humans, but that doesn't mean that she's for some reason morally corrupt.

I've posted pages and pages about Szeth before, and how I don't understand the love he gets.  Here's a man who decided it was better to throw the world into chaos and destruction because someone with a rock told him to do it than to...not?  Like, sure, it's apparently his religious belief, but also according to the belief he's super clear that he's going to suffer in the Hells for the murders, too.  Nothing Shallan has done or is even remotely responsible for approaches the level of destruction that Szeth willfully caused to the lands and people, but he's praised because he held to his belief.  Of doing whatever a person holding a specific rock told him to do.

[Negative_Null They/Them]

1 minute ago, kaellok said:

I've posted pages and pages about Szeth before, and how I don't understand the love he gets.  Here's a man who decided it was better to throw the world into chaos and destruction because someone with a rock told him to do it than to...not?  Like, sure, it's apparently his religious belief, but also according to the belief he's super clear that he's going to suffer in the Hells for the murders, too.  Nothing Shallan has done or is even remotely responsible for approaches the level of destruction that Szeth willfully caused to the lands and people, but he's praised because he held to his belief.  Of doing whatever a person holding a specific rock told him to do.

I'll admit, while I'm looking forward to the fifth book (Knight of War Torn, is my idea for the title), I'm not looking forward to a whole lot of Szeth. While both can be thought of in a similar way I guess (both just follow what they know rather than trying to find something new), that's a whole different level and really not comparable. I suppose it is admirable to stick to those beliefs like that, but it would have been more admirable to throw it away (not as good of a story though). 

Personally, I don't think that we should hate on any character. Every character Brandon writes is really well written and deserves some appreciation. Even if you don't like Wayne or Shallan or Lopen (who are the three I hear most about), I think you still have to appreciate how much work Brandon puts into them and how they change the story. Even Moash is a character I really appreciate and yes, I even enjoyed his chapters and character arc. I think the only characters Brandon's written that I didn't like were Hrathen and Sarene, but I still loved the story of Elantris and know it couldn't have gone as well with different characters.

It's more fun to like things than to hate things. Just saying

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

3 hours ago, kaellok said:

I've posted pages and pages about Szeth before, and how I don't understand the love he gets.  Here's a man who decided it was better to throw the world into chaos and destruction because someone with a rock told him to do it than to...not?  Like, sure, it's apparently his religious belief, but also according to the belief he's super clear that he's going to suffer in the Hells for the murders, too.  Nothing Shallan has done or is even remotely responsible for approaches the level of destruction that Szeth willfully caused to the lands and people, but he's praised because he held to his belief.  Of doing whatever a person holding a specific rock told him to do.

Maybe it's just because I'm not religious in the slightest in real life, but Stormlight Archive (and much of the Cosmere in general) is full of people who do foolish or reprehensible things (to put it mildly) with little justification beyond 'my religion said so'.

Shallan is one of them too, as she buys heavily into the Vorin gender roles and caste system. 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Maybe it's just because I'm not religious in the slightest in real life, but Stormlight Archive (and much of the Cosmere in general) is full of people who do foolish or reprehensible things (to put it mildly) with little justification beyond 'my religion said so'.

Shallan is one of them too, as she buys heavily into the Vorin gender roles and caste system. 

*Mutters about

HoA

Spoiler

Religion saving Scandrial.

*

7 hours ago, kaellok said:

I've posted pages and pages about Szeth before, and how I don't understand the love he gets.  Here's a man who decided it was better to throw the world into chaos and destruction because someone with a rock told him to do it than to...not?  Like, sure, it's apparently his religious belief, but also according to the belief he's super clear that he's going to suffer in the Hells for the murders, too.  Nothing Shallan has done or is even remotely responsible for approaches the level of destruction that Szeth willfully caused to the lands and people, but he's praised because he held to his belief.  Of doing whatever a person holding a specific rock told him to do.

Well to him it's either that or cease to exist.

7 hours ago, Negative_Null said:

I suppose it is admirable to stick to those beliefs like that, but it would have been more admirable to throw it away (not as good of a story though). 

Didn't you just say

On 9/14/2020 at 11:05 AM, Negative_Null said:

That's all pretty true.

About

How culture rub off on people so Shallan should be given leeway?

[Negative_Null They/Them]

That's why I still have to say it's admirable to stick to those beliefs. Both of them (all the Stormlight characters) have to be given some amount of allowance for what they've been taught and indoctrinated with. 
Szeth sticks to what he's been taught even though it's really hard. It's not admirable for most of the Alethi and Shallan who just continue the cultural norms that have already been established, but you have to give them some amount of leeway the same as we do Szeth.

I think the point of books is that you can see inside someone's head, and since we can, we should use and see the story from everyone's point of view.

And maybe my argument is inconsistent, but I'm also arguing this over the course of a few days so forgive me if I forget what I posted last time

[I Am A Fish he/him]

On 9/14/2020 at 1:08 PM, Frustration said:

I don't get it either, those are the least of her problems.

And the most are?

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

And the most are?

Being stoopid, having boring story-line, I talked about it a lot ...last page? the one before? somewhere earlier.

[I Am A Fish he/him]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Being stoopid, having boring story-line, I talked about it a lot ...last page? the one before? somewhere earlier.

All right,

I hate Kaladin. Why you ask?

Well he's stoopid, he has a depressing story line, and he crushed his father's dreams.

[Guest _Shallan_]

Well... I never wanted to be hated and to cause disgust in people.  I'm sorry.

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

All right,

I hate Kaladin. Why you ask?

Well he's stoopid, he has a depressing story line, and he crushed his father's dreams.

Well, if you feel that way.....

*resists urge to destroy*

50 minutes ago, _Shallan_ said:

Well... I never wanted to be hated and to cause disgust in people.  I'm sorry.

*claps* that was brilliant have a rep

[Guest _Shallan_]

59 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well, if you feel that way.....

*resists urge to destroy*

*claps* that was brilliant have a rep

 

[revelryintheart she/her]

Hehe time to contribute to the disgust thread:

As an artist, it really bugs me how Shallan can just subconsciously draw a masterpiece. It's just... ugh. It seems to take out all the time and energy put into art. I know that she has been drawing since she was young, but I don't know of any artist who draws *AMAZINGLY* without even thinking. I suppose her Lightweaver powers could contribute to it, but none of the other Lightweavers we've seen have her mystical art ability.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, revelryintheart said:

Hehe time to contribute to the disgust thread:

As an artist, it really bugs me how Shallan can just subconsciously draw a masterpiece. It's just... ugh. It seems to take out all the time and energy put into art. I know that she has been drawing since she was young, but I don't know of any artist who draws *AMAZINGLY* without even thinking. I suppose her Lightweaver powers could contribute to it, but none of the other Lightweavers we've seen have her mystical art ability.

oh, that must really be annoying, I can't draw to save my life so I never thought of that, but yeah, in WoK she doesn't even look half the time.

[+Doomstick he/him]

1 hour ago, revelryintheart said:

I suppose her Lightweaver powers could contribute to it, but none of the other Lightweavers we've seen have her mystical art ability.

and which of those have we seen?

also it is definitely a consequence of Lightweaving  (see this link)

Spoiler

now its time to leave this thread like I never came

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

and which of those have we seen?

also it is definitely a consequence of Lightweaving  (see this link)

  Reveal hidden contents

now its time to leave this thread like I never came

 

We have seen two other lightweavers and a squire, none of them have shown any artistic talent.

[+Doomstick he/him]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We have seen two other lightweavers and a squire, none of them have shown any artistic talent.

Tien showed talent in woodcarving, Elhokar never said the words, and Hoid definitely has artistic talent (this is also irrelevant because we don't see him after bonding), the squire part is irrelevant, as "Members of this order generally do not have these mnemonic abilities before bonding a Cryptic" -from the "resonance" section of the coppermind article that I linked. your point?

Edited September 18, 2020 by Doomstick

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

Tien showed talent in woodcarving,

With practice, not painting, and certainly not something he just put together subconsciously, and done, once.

6 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

Elhokar never said the words, 

Kaladin was protecting even before Syl came

6 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

Hoid definitely has artistic talent, 

He was a secondhand pick on a "it's this or death" basis not exactly ideal, and I don't think we ever see him make something on a whim.

6 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

the squire part is irrelevant, as "Members of this order generally do not have these mnemonic abilities before bonding a Cryptic" -from the "resonance" section of the coppermind article that I linked.

And they just become perfect artists as a result, unlikely.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Frustration

[+Doomstick he/him]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

With practice, not painting, and certainly not something he just put together subconsciously, and done, once.

Kaladin was protecting even before Syl came

He was a secondhand pick on a "it's this or death" basis not exactly ideal, and I don't think we ever see him make something on a whim.

And they just become perfect artists as a result, unlikely.

Tien carved a beautiful horse when all he had made before was "practical" things (such as chairs), I wouldn't call that art practice

yes, but protective nature isn't a result of his bond with Syl, it's a prerequisite, did you even read that section?

do we see any of Hoid after bonding his Cryptic?

not perfect, but better, we get an explanation of this in WoR.

this is like me saying that Kaladin sucks because he is insanely good at fighting, to be honest, that would be more reasonable because the reason that Kaladin is good at the spear is because he will be. The Lightweaver Order's resonance at least partially explains Shallan's skill with art, and constant practice for probably 10 years can explain the rest.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Doomstick

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Doomstick said:

this is like me saying that Kaladin sucks because he is insanely good at fighting, to be honest, that would be more reasonable because the reason that Kaladin is good at the spear is because he will be. The Lightweaver Order's resonance at least partially explains Shallan's skill with art, and constant practice for probably 10 years can explain the rest.

I have seen him criticized for preforming a last clap on his first try. When does Shallan actually work to get better at art? Even as a kid she was insanely good at it. Kaladin's reasonance is the ability to have more squires, would you question if he suddenly had say a thousand of them while no other Radiant got more than say three? because that is the kind of difference we are talking about.

 

3 minutes ago, Doomstick said:

did you even read that section?

 Yes I have read the resonances page, even before you linked it.

[+Doomstick he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

I have seen him criticized for preforming a last clap on his first try. When does Shallan actually work to get better at art? Even as a kid she was insanely good at it. Kaladin's reasonance is the ability to have more squires, would you question if he suddenly had say a thousand of them while no other Radiant got more than say three? because that is the kind of difference we are talking about.

 

1: a last clap is not conventional fighting, and would get him nowhere on a battlefield, it would only work in a duel. Also, every living person who preformed a last clap did it on their first try, as it is a last resort, and not something practiced by anyone, as far as I can tell

2: all the time, a performance is still practice, also she talks about starting. And yes, she may have progressed supernaturally fast, but that is still a function of her resonance. Also she started drawing before we see her earliest flashback, and three years after that is the first time someone comments on the quality of them, and even then she makes mistakes, this is after three years of accelerated learning due to resonance. She was eleven when she killed her mother, and she probably had the bond a year or two before that, giving her 6-8 years of resonance.

3: no, not if there was an explanation that makes sense was given. 

4: how is that the kind of difference we are talking about? 

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Doomstick said:

3: no, not if there was an explanation that makes sense was given. 

Exactly my point, there is no good reason for perfection.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Frustration

[+Doomstick he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Exactly my point, there is no good reason for perfection.

So you have problems with Kaladin too for being the world’s best spear fighter? Or Adolin for being the best duelist in Alethkar? Or Jasnah for being Jasnah?

Edited September 18, 2020 by Doomstick