Karger he/him Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 59 minutes ago, Golstar said: I agree that Spren is wrong when he's never manifested in the Physical Realm, but I think spirit is also wrong, assuming he still has a presence in the Cognitive Realm. Assuming his is dead and never became a CS the idea of him might still exist in the SR. The idea of a good and wise king who gave inspiration to the radiants. 1
Golstar Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) On 6/11/2020 at 7:17 PM, Karger said: Assuming his is dead and never became a CS the idea of him might still exist in the SR. The idea of a good and wise king who gave inspiration to the radiants. Mistborn: Secret History spoilers Spoiler In Mistborn: Secret History we see that all deceased will linger for an amount of time in the Cognitive Realm as a CS. Some very briefly and some for longer. The interactions between Leras and Kelsier strongly indicate that investiture is key to whether an individual is able to stick around. Also, the ability to stick around permanently, in the case of Kelsier, is tied to the Perpendicularity of Preservation. He is chained to it until Vin absorbs it temporarily, which for some reason frees him and allows him to freely travel the Cognitive Realm (of Scadrial). One could imagine that Nohadon was affected in a similar way, being around as a CS (similar Kelsier, not as an idea/concept CS), but being chained to Honor's Perpendicularity. Like Kelsier he would be unable to interact with the Physical Realm, but perhaps the Nahel Bond between Dalinar and the Stormfather provides an opening to enter a dream (somewhat similar to what the Ascended Kelsier did with Spook, despite Preservation normally not being able to communicate in this fashion). The abnormal dream-vision of Nohadon does occur immediately after Dalinar summons the Stormfather to the Physical Realm (in order to unlock the Oathgate in Vedenar to escape the Thrill). Either way, my point is that I think it's important to discern between Cognitive Shadows that are concepts/ideas, like the idealized and mythical version of the wise king, and the those are the Cognitive part of an actual individual, usually only active for a brief time before passing on to the Spiritual Realm, but as we see in Mistborn: Secret History, there are ways around this. The Lord-Ruler seems capable of, but unwilling to, staying in the Cognitive Realm. One thing strongly indicating that Nohadon's CS is of the 'ghost'-type, rather than a concept/idea, is the fact that he explains basic Realmatic Theory to Dalinar. Even Higher Spren seem to be somewhat limited in their understanding of the world and their ability to explain it. The Heralds and Fused are examples of this type of CS, so we know they are created willingly by Honor and Odium. Nohadon is described as being a very strong surgebinder, from a very young age. Perhaps this heavy use of investiture was enough to keep him around as a CS tied to Honor's Perpendicularity. He has no ability to manifest physically, like the aforementioned CS. As to why he would choose to stay in the Cognitive Realm, which is an aberration and requires a powerful motivation? Perhaps he saw something in the Spiritual Realm as he was transitioning (like the Returned do), and decided to do the Honorable thing and stick around so he could help guide events. Edited June 19, 2020 by Golstar Missing spoiler tags added 1
Steel Inquisitive he/him Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 @Golstar just a friendly reminder, but you're in the Stormlight section and the Mistborn stuff should be in spoiler boxes.
Yolenlightweaver Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 Please correct me if I am wrong but based on a couple boards, I have assumed that the Sibling was in charge of making Urithiru work. When he left things kind of fell apart. I fell like this would make a time difference from when Nohadon bonded with the Sibling, and when the Sibling withdrew. Beyond that, I really like this theory!
Karger he/him Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Golstar said: One thing strongly indicating that Nohadon's CS is of the 'ghost'-type, rather than a concept/idea, is the fact that he explains basic Realmatic Theory to Dalinar. Even Higher Spren seem to be somewhat limited in their understanding of the world and their ability to explain it. Rosharans already know relmatic theory. Jasnah mentions the theory of the three realms, at Gavilar's funeral the ardents talk about it, and Lirin states that "the almighty calls all men back to the spiritual realm eventually." Also if looking into the SR Dalinar could easily come up with some fundamental truths about the universe. 1
Golstar Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 53 minutes ago, Karger said: Rosharans already know relmatic theory. Jasnah mentions the theory of the three realms, at Gavilar's funeral the ardents talk about it, and Lirin states that "the almighty calls all men back to the spiritual realm eventually." Also if looking into the SR Dalinar could easily come up with some fundamental truths about the universe. I think it is plausible that this Nohadon is just a construct of Dalinar's own mind, and isn't any kind of Cognitive Shadow at all. One point against this is that Nohadon comments on the nature of the particular nightmare. That could just be Dalinar dreaming still, but it's a hint at least that is an actual outside influence. And if it is an actual Cognitive Shadow, then I don't think it acts in line with a Concept/Idea shadow. So I would think it's either a ghost-type shadow or something similar to what we see in Warbreaker: Spoiler The Returned are Cognitive Shadows that upon peering into the Spiritual Realm and having some kind of Foresight decide to return to the Physical Realm. Upon making this choice, Endowment puts the Cognitive Shadows back in the Physical bodies (a bit like what Nale does to Szeth). However, they lose all memory and gain an ability to reshape their Physical form to match their (amnesiac) Cognitive Shadow's ideas about how they should look. So we know that a Cognitive Shadow of a specific individual can be modified by the Shards. Dream-vision Nohadon could be a Cognitive Shadow modified by Honor and/or Cultivation, so that the personality of the original Nohadon is changed. The weird fixation on food is similar to that of Lift, which hints at Cultivation. I don't think we've seen many examples of communication into and out of the Spiritual Realm. Evi reaching out during the Perpendicularity moment is one example. The other Cosmere books show limited opportunities for Cognitive Shadows to do this. But I seem to remember a Vessel commenting that the Spritual Realm is opaque even to them. So I think it is highly unlikely that dream-Nohadon is a Spiritual Realm entity. Having one such communicate without a Perpendicularity seems very unlikely to me. So my bet would be on Cultivation meddling with Nohadon's (ghost) Cognitive Shadow and helping it stick around. She's shown a talent for playing the long game, and the historical arc of Nohadon seems to fit Cultivation's modus operandi.
Karger he/him Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Golstar said: So we know that a Cognitive Shadow of a specific individual can be modified by the Shards We do?
Golstar Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 42 minutes ago, Karger said: We do? Yes, (Warbreaker spoilers) Spoiler Kurkistan Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on? Brandon Sanderson Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire. Kurkistan And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so *sounds hesitant* "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it. Kurkistan So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? Brandon Sanderson You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track. Kurkistan Okay. Brandon Sanderson Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right? Kurkistan Yeah. Brandon Sanderson And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct? Kurkistan Yes. Brandon Sanderson And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes. Kurkistan But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself- Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes yes exactly. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Khyrindor You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Brandon Sanderson Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created. Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this: Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality. A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture. When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul. Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety. linkhyrule5 Huh. ... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars? Brandon Sanderson No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 20, 2017) I think there's a lot of examples given of how Cognitive entities are malleable, for example Soulcasting. Whereas Hemalurgy is described as unique in how it modifies the Spirit Web, it seems the Cognitive is more open to tampering. I think this makes sense considering the Cognitive Realm is the realm of the mind. I think the following WoB gives a good perspective on the difference the amount of Investiture makes. I know there's a lot we haven't been told yet, but we've seen the ability of Investiture to create, modify and destroy matter and energy in the Physical Realm also extend to the Cognitive equivalents. So I would say the Cognitive is every bit as open to Shardic influence as the Physical. Whereas the Spiritual is relatively off-bounds. Quote Questioner I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect? Brandon Sanderson That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture... And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) 1
Karger he/him Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Golstar said: I think there's a lot of examples given of how Cognitive entities are malleable, for example Soulcasting. Whereas Hemalurgy is described as unique in how it modifies the Spirit Web, it seems the Cognitive is more open to tampering. I think this makes sense considering the Cognitive Realm is the realm of the mind. I guess but I don't really see how that demonstrates your point. Humans are equally capable of "modifying" a CS and if they were as good at it as you seem to think then MB spoilers Spoiler Marsh would have given Ruin a lot less trouble
Golstar Posted June 19, 2020 Posted June 19, 2020 23 minutes ago, Karger said: I guess but I don't really see how that demonstrates your point. Humans are equally capable of "modifying" a CS and if they were as good at it as you seem to think then MB spoilers Reveal hidden contents Marsh would have given Ruin a lot less trouble I'm not saying they are able to extinguish free will of a living creature, although in the case you mention that was the case except for a very special and brief moment. But I would say that we've seen Cognitive Shadows being 'weaker' than actual living creatures (which exist in all three realms). Either way the ability to influence and modify is tied to the amount of investiture, be that in a living creature or a CS. I'm not saying Nohadon is completely under the sway of a shard, but that it's possible that the imprint of the living Nohadon in the Cognitive realm, stayed behind as a Cognitive Shadow and was cultivated for some future purpose. As we've seen it done with Dalinar. Cultivation mentions that she's taking a risk investing in him, but she does so any way. Nohadon could be a similar thing. My point was just that I think the mechanics of Cognitive Shadows we've seen so far point at Nohadon either 1) a figment of Dalinar's own mind and "just" part of his dream - ie his own subconscious reminding of those most important steps to take or 2) The Cognitive Shadow of the historical person Nohadon, possibly modified by Cultivation. The ideal of Nohadon existing in the Spiritual Realm should not be able to manifest in the Physical or Cognitive Realm without investiture creating such an entity. I am not sure what the source of that investiture would be. I guess it would be akin to the Unmade. So I am not even saying it's impossible that the origin of the Nohadon in the dream is Spiritual Realm, but I just think the clues point more strongly at one of the other possibilities.
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