[OB] Nightblood's power level: Can it destroy the unmade? (Warbreaker spoilers)

[splinters]

The end of OB brings to the forefront of my mind the question: How powerful is Nightblood? Considering that it is being wielded against the fused and even a thunderclast and that it instantly turns them into smoke, this leads to the conclusion that maybe Nightblood can even be used on the Unmade and maybe even a shard (I doubt this is possible as it would be hard to pin down an exact physical location of a shard). If Nightblood can destroy the unmade, then that sure sounds like a better alternative than trapping them in a flawless gemstone.

Evidence supporting the idea that Nightblood can destroy the Unmade:

1. Nightblood can destroy splinters. He does this when he kills Returned in Warbreaker (the Returned are splinters, but they don't appear to have the same level of investment as the Unmade).

2. Nightblood easily destroys a Thunderclast (which may not be a splinter, but is at least heavily invested).

3. Nightblood destroys on all three realms (physical, cognitive, spiritual).

4. Resisting Nightblood's directives seems to be at least as hard as resisting the unmade (only Szeth and Vasher have proven able to resist Nightblood and only Shallan and Dalinar have successfully resisted the unmade). This seems to mean they are at least near the same power level.

One of the questions this creates for me, is if Nightblood uses up more investiture while destroying something more heavily invested than it does destroying other things, or if only eats investiture at a steady rate.  

 

[RShara she/her]

Nightblood consumes Investiture.  So yeah, assuming you could stab him in to an Unmade, and the Unmade couldn't access Investiture, given enough time, Nightblood could probably destroy them.  Destroying them is kinda a side effect, though.  He just eats their Investiture.  Since they're made of Investiture, they get eaten.  Yummy!

I believe Nightblood consumes Investiture at a steady, but VERY fast rate when drawn.

Edited November 27, 2017 by RShara

[Frogs he/him]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

I believe Nightblood consumes Investiture at a steady, but VERY fast rate when drawn.

I thought that Vasher said Nightblood consumes more Breath the longer it is drawn when he uses it in Warbreaker...

[StormingTexan he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frogs said:

I thought that Vasher said Nightblood consumes more Breath the longer it is drawn when he uses it in Warbreaker...

That is correct so the wielder would theoretically need to have as much investiture as the unmade or shard in order to not die as I understand it. 

[Frogs he/him]

3 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

That is correct so the wielder would theoretically need to have as much investiture as the unmade or shard in order to not die as I understand it.

I don't know if I remember this, but if you are wielding Nightblood and using it on someone, will it stop sucking Investiture out of you while it sucks it out of them, or does it do both simultaneously? Or does it even suck Investiture out of targets, but rather only wielders? What does it actually do to things the blade touches?

[RShara she/her]

7 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

That is correct so the wielder would theoretically need to have as much investiture as the unmade or shard in order to not die as I understand it. 

I just scanned through Warbreaker and any time Nightblood is mentioned, and I didn't see where Vasher says this.  Do you have the page or position?

[StormingTexan he/him]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

I just scanned through Warbreaker and any time Nightblood is mentioned, and I didn't see where Vasher says this.  Do you have the page or position?

Haha I am misremembering it and making assumptions.. So yeah once Nightblood is wielded he draws on the investiture of the wielder if they run out of investiture they would also die. I was assuming it would take longer to kill an Unmade than a regular person or less invested person but I have no factual evidence to back that up. Interestingly though if someone wielded while "ridding the storm" like Kaladin did they could draw him for a very long time. 

Edit: Nightblood's "investiture drain" on the wielder  also speeds up the longer it is drawn so that was where I was thinking if it took longer to kill an Unmade you would need equal investiture (which is wrong you would need more) but I do not know that it takes any longer. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by StormingTexan

[RShara she/her]

Yes, anyone with a lot of Investiture would take longer to kill, because they would have more fuel for Nightblood.  But if they ran out, they'd be eaten.  I'll bet Unmade are crunchy.

[Frogs he/him]

I think this WoB might be relevant. Not sure how to cite this properly, but here is the link: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3911

Quote

Phantine

What does Nightblood do if he gets fully drawn and runs out of breath and people to eat?

Does he start vaporizing the ground and start boring a hole to the center of the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he won't. (Good question though.) I'm not sure I want to get into the mechanics of why not, yet. It WAS one of the first things we talked about with Nightblood, though.

Phantine

Not to go into mechanics, then, does Nightblood just 'go to sleep' when his job's done?

That would explain how Vasher is confident he'll be able to get Nightblood back, even if the person he tosses Nightblood to ends up fully drawing the blade.

Brandon Sanderson

He doesn't sleep, but if he draws in enough, he'll start to sound drunk or drowsy (depending on your interpretation.)

So it seems like after enough Investiture, Nightblood gets "full" or something. So there is probably a limit to how much it could consume at once. Like, I'd guess it probably couldn't devour a Shard in one go.

[StormingTexan he/him]

He for sure is pretty deadly to unmade as they would be killed in all three realms and unable to return. 

 

Edit also regarding killing a shard there it this WoB

https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?pid=PEP_2011_PEPANNRES&prodType=table

 

Quote

 

Argent

Can Nightblood damage or kill a Shard? Is he that powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is not powerful enough for-- *makes weird/hesitant ehhh sound*

Argent

Can it damage?

Brandon Sanderson

Damage? Yes. How damaging? Is a subject to discussion. Nightblood contains a lot of Investiture.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by StormingTexan

[splinters]

Quote

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

Destroying them is kinda a side effect, though.  He just eats their Investiture.  Since they're made of Investiture, they get eaten.  Yummy!

 

It does appear to take some extra effort or effort to kill/destroy more heavily invested beings (the thundeclast doesn't just pop like the fused do ch. 117 and 118), and I thought Nightblood just eats the investiture of its wielder and that enables it to kill/destroy.

[splinters]

21 minutes ago, Frogs said:

So it seems like after enough Investiture, Nightblood gets "full" or something. So there is probably a limit to how much it could consume at once. Like, I'd guess it probably couldn't devour a Shard in one go.

In OB it does appear that he is satiated when Dalinar opens up Honor's perpendicularity, but sadly he didn't sound drunk when talking to Lift.

[splinters]

26 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Argent

Can Nightblood damage or kill a Shard? Is he that powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is not powerful enough for-- *makes weird/hesitant ehhh sound*

Argent

Can it damage?

Brandon Sanderson

Damage? Yes. How damaging? Is a subject to discussion. Nightblood contains a lot of Investiture.

Does this mean that Nightblood gets to keep most of the investiture it eats? I was under the impression that 1000 breaths was a lot, but not when compared to shards. If nightblood gets to keep some of the investiture it gathers and only consumes some to stay alive (like a returned), then it sure would be powerful (especially after being supercharged from something like a perpendicularity).

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, splinters said:

Does this mean that Nightblood gets to keep most of the investiture it eats? I was under the impression that 1000 breaths was a lot, but not when compared to shards. If nightblood gets to keep some of the investiture it gathers and only consumes some to stay alive (like a returned), then it sure would be powerful (especially after being supercharged from something like a perpendicularity).

That one's tough.  We don't really know a whole lot about how Nightblood works.  My guess from what we've seen is that the Breaths power his sentience and baseline abilities, and they really don't get used up, similar to the innate Breath that keeps any regular person alive.

When he consumes extra Investiture, it gives him a boost, enabling him to bring his more wacky abilities into play.  And it kind of over-feeds him and sends him into a food coma/drunken stupor.

[Sprendiferous]

6 hours ago, splinters said:

Does this mean that Nightblood gets to keep most of the investiture it eats? I was under the impression that 1000 breaths was a lot, but not when compared to shards. If nightblood gets to keep some of the investiture it gathers and only consumes some to stay alive (like a returned), then it sure would be powerful (especially after being supercharged from something like a perpendicularity).

In the grand scheme of things, 1000 breaths is really not that much investiture. However Brandon has mentioned on several occasions that Nightblood is one of the most heavily invested beings in the cosmere. I would guess that he keeps the investiture that he consumes. Brandon has also said that Nightblood is slowly decreasing the total amount of investiture in the cosmere (very very slowly). This would seem to indicate that said investiture is not recoverable? Now that I say this could he be at all related to "the weapon"?

[Calderis he/him]

20 minutes ago, Sprendiferous said:

In the grand scheme of things, 1000 breaths is really not that much investiture. However Brandon has mentioned on several occasions that Nightblood is one of the most heavily invested beings in the cosmere. I would guess that he keeps the investiture that he consumes. Brandon has also said that Nightblood is slowly decreasing the total amount of investiture in the cosmere (very very slowly). This would seem to indicate that said investiture is not recoverable? Now that I say this could he be at all related to "the weapon"?

The issue with this, is that according to Vasher, Nightblood has been wrong since the beginning, and what he is shouldn't have been possible with only a thousand breaths. 

There's no evidence either way on if the breaths add to his strength or not. 

I'm personally of the opinion that they don't and there was something else involved in his creation that Vasher and Shashara were unaware of. 

Until we learn more about Nightblood, this is one of those things we don't have the ability to answer. 

[ScavellTane]

Was Nightblood based on a Radiant blade or a dead blade? Would that have an affect?

[Darvys]

For the bit about whether Nightblood draws from the victim and wielder simultaneously, when Lift inadvertantly offered herself up at the end by trying to use regrowth on Szeth, the blade's focus seemed to shift immediatly to her, i don't know if it kept feeding on Szeth but i doubt it as he was quite low already and he should have died if it had. I'd like to know how you guys understood this part.

It would also make sense if Nightblood's instinct was to keep its wielder alive as long as possible, feeding instead on whatever was within reach.

[RShara she/her]

5 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Was Nightblood based on a Radiant blade or a dead blade? Would that have an affect?

Nightblood originated on another planet, I don't think he was based on any kind of Rosharan system.  He also might predate Radiants, and definitely predates the Recreance, if I remember correctly.

[ZenBossanova]

 

13 minutes ago, RShara said:

Nightblood originated on another planet, I don't think he was based on any kind of Rosharan system.  He also might predate Radiants, and definitely predates the Recreance, if I remember correctly.

Nightblood is an imitation Shardblade, created by a different magic system, specifically the one on Nalthis. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

13 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

 

Nightblood is an imitation Shardblade, created by a different magic system, specifically the one on Nalthis. 

Correct and just to add a little more. 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Is [Nightblood] like, the Shardblades, kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson

It is. So, what happened is: Vasher, who was involved in the creation of Nightblood, visited Roshar and came back with this knowledge, and they tried to create something.

Questioner

So he based it off those?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And they got it kind of right.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127-salt-lake-city-comiccon-2017/#e5107

 

[RShara she/her]

Ah, thanks.  I thought Nightblood would have predated the Radiants, since they created him so long ago.

[ZenBossanova]

19 hours ago, Frogs said:

I thought that Vasher said Nightblood consumes more Breath the longer it is drawn when he uses it in Warbreaker...

If that rate he consumes investiture is proportional to how long the blade is unsheathed, then that is the definition of exponential growth. And that can be VERY fast, given enough time. 

If there are any limiting factors, then we will probably get a logistic equation, which can be dangerous, depending on what those limiting factors are. But overall, less dangerous than simple exponential growth. 

In the real world, there are always some limiting factors. 

What sounds interesting to me, is what happens when he is around Voidbringers with unlimited voidlight? 

Edited November 28, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[RShara she/her]

Well we agreed that Nightblood probably doesn't consume more Breath the longer he is drawn.  Or rather, that we didn't know if he did or didn't.  My opinion is that he does not.

[Beatsmorn]

20 hours ago, splinters said:

Does this mean that Nightblood gets to keep most of the investiture it eats? I was under the impression that 1000 breaths was a lot, but not when compared to shards. If nightblood gets to keep some of the investiture it gathers and only consumes some to stay alive (like a returned), then it sure would be powerful (especially after being supercharged from something like a perpendicularity).

Number of Breaths used in Awakening isn't proportional to power of Awakening. Awakening which uses more Breaths will not necessarily be more powerful than one using less Breaths.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Beatsmorn