Heretic he/him Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 Just to be on the safe side, I’m going to use a spoiler tag, so if you haven’t finished Oathbringer, you’ve been warned Spoiler So, Szeth has sworn 3 ideals of the Skybreakers so far. He can use the lashings and seems to be able to take in stormlight on his own but as far as I know, he isn’t bonded to a spren. I’ve flipped back through Oathbringer and haven’t found any evidence of a bond being formed, so it seems as though he shouldn’t be able to use stormlight on his own but he does. Anyone have any ideas on why this might be?
eltari Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 He has bonded one. The spren juat doesnt show itself much. Someone else can find the quote but it is in the chapter Ideals, pg 1150ish.
Chana Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 I think he formed a bond with a spren, just the spren itself wasn’t seen „on screen”. After all, we can’t be sure when exactly Szeth swore the Ideal, it could be while talking to Nale but didn’t have to (for me it sounded more like Szeth just telling him what’s he going to do not swearing actually), it could be when he told Dalinar that he’s going to serve him or somewhere in between. Anyway after that we don’t have that much Szeth’s POV and he’s kind of occupied with the battle so I guess he just met the spren after the battle or something like that. That’s just the simplest explenation of the situation and the simplest is usually the most plausible one. However, it’s kind of weird that his spren wasn’t shown, as it could be just adresem as being there without thinking the pacing that much and it would be believable why it wouldn’t have a talk with Szeth or something like that as there was a battle going on. So maybe there is more to that, something we’ll learn through WoB or in the next book (it’s supposed to be about Szeth after all).
splinters Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 Quote “Not yet. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath.” At the Words, snow crystallized around him in the air, then fluttered down. He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still. “I believe that your Words have been accepted. Have you chosen your quest for the next Ideal?” “I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees.” “We shall see. You may find him a harsh master.” -Chapter 121 Ideals, page 1197 So, he did swear the third ideal. During the battle the Skybreakers were close enough for his ability to work. 1
Darvys Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 He said after swearing the 3rd oath that he felt the spren's (singular) approval though it still wouldn't show itself to him. There's something else worth noting, at some point he tells Nightblood that he reminds him of another voice he used to hear in his head when he was younger, it is my assumption that Szeth had already bonded a spren long ago, and his bond was dormant since until he started speaking the oaths, after all we still don't know how he came by the knowledge that had him exiled as Truthless, what better source than a radiant spren warning him of a coming desolation ?
shadowwisp Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 36 minutes ago, Darvys said: There's something else worth noting, at some point he tells Nightblood that he reminds him of another voice he used to hear in his head when he was younger, Which is quite awful if you think about it. As far as we know, every Radiant spren can manifest itself to others (correct me if I am wrong). If you are trying to convince everyone that the Radiants are back, showing off your talking Radiant spren would be a solid idea. Which leads me to speculate two possibilities considering that he no longer hears a voice: 1. Szeth revealed the spren, and then Elders freaked out and permanently killed it via Honorblade. And then convinced Szeth that the spren isn't what he thought it was and that he is crazy, a lair, heretic, etc. That means the hidden spren is a new spren. It's hiding because its worried what happened to its predecessor or just scared of Nightblood. 2. Szeth revealed the spren, and then Elders freaked out and then convinced Szeth that the spren isn't what he thought it was and that he is crazy, a lair, heretic, etc. Szeth, fully convinced, intentionally or unintentionally, bond-killed the spren. That means the hidden spren is his old spren coming back to life. Maybe it's still healing which why it hasn't shown itself yet, similar to Pattern. Either way, that leaves Szeth pissed now he knows the truth.
Darvys Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 16 minutes ago, shadowwisp said: Either way, that leaves Szeth pissed now he knows the truth. I think he hasn't gotten to that point quite yet, he's still only just coming to terms with the fact that he was never truthless, when the other implications start hitting ... Well, Nightblood might get as much action as he could possibly crave. 1
rjl Posted November 26, 2017 Posted November 26, 2017 3 hours ago, splinters said: So, he did swear the third ideal. During the battle the Skybreakers were close enough for his ability to work. He didn't need proximity to the skybreakers during that battle; read the section you quoted again - he's clearly bonded to the spren before that and hence had power from it. The key bit is this: Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still. If the bond wasn't formed untill he swore this oath then this line wouldn't make sense. 1
splinters Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 @rjl, good point. I forgot that he would have independent access to stormlight before his 3rd ideal.
The Invested Beard Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 So let's take a minute to let this sink in: Szeth now has a Shardblade at his disposal as well as Nightblood. The possibilities... 1
Asrael he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 Szeth was taken as a squire to another Skybreaker. No nahel bond required. Then he swore his 3rd oath and gained his own highspren
Nashan’Elin he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 One part about the Skybreakers that confuses me is how they can swear the First and Second Ideals seemingly without bonding a spren. I know they become squires, but being a squire doesn’t seem like it should let you swear Ideals, because what are those Ideals being sworn to? Who accepts them? To be fair, the whole idea of squires is odd. Do they form small bonds with their Radiant’s spren, and that spren accepts their Ideals? This doesn’t seem right, either. I’m gonna go talk about this in a different topic, but what we do know is this: Szeth saw what I assume were highspren watching his performance in the Purelake. They were already interested in him, before he spoke his Second Ideal. By the he entered the battle at Thaylen City, he had bonded a spren, as he was able to Invest and use Lashings. He then spoke the Third Ideal, and was confirmed to have bonded the spren.
Blightsong he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 15 minutes ago, Ookla the Heraldic said: One part about the Skybreakers that confuses me is how they can swear the First and Second Ideals seemingly without bonding a spren. I know they become squires, but being a squire doesn’t seem like it should let you swear Ideals, because what are those Ideals being sworn to? Who accepts them? To be fair, the whole idea of squires is odd. Do they form small bonds with their Radiant’s spren, and that spren accepts their Ideals? This doesn’t seem right, either. I’m gonna go talk about this in a different topic, but what we do know is this: Szeth saw what I assume were highspren watching his performance in the Purelake. They were already interested in him, before he spoke his Second Ideal. By the he entered the battle at Thaylen City, he had bonded a spren, as he was able to Invest and use Lashings. He then spoke the Third Ideal, and was confirmed to have bonded the spren. You are mistaking us not seeing the spren much as evidence that a bond does not exist. Not really the same thing.
Nashan’Elin he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 Just now, Blightsong said: You are mistaking us not seeing the spren much as evidence that a bond does not exist. Not really the same thing. I wasn’t meaning to do that, is this about the First and Second Ideals? My thoughts there were just that it seems off that all those potential Skybreakers who swore the First Ideal bonded spren, right at that moment or before it, given how wary spren are of the bond. Besides, I thought at one point Szeth saw more than one highspren watching him at the Purelake, which seems to indicate more than one spren was thinking about bonding him. Or if you were talking about squires in general, I thought the thing about them was that they hadn’t yet bonded spren, but were on a path to.
vividox Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 23 hours ago, Darvys said: He said after swearing the 3rd oath that he felt the spren's (singular) approval though it still wouldn't show itself to him. There's something else worth noting, at some point he tells Nightblood that he reminds him of another voice he used to hear in his head when he was younger, it is my assumption that Szeth had already bonded a spren long ago, and his bond was dormant since until he started speaking the oaths, after all we still don't know how he came by the knowledge that had him exiled as Truthless, what better source than a radiant spren warning him of a coming desolation ? +1 to all of this. This would also make sense in light of knowing that Brandon felt the need to write all of Szeth's flashback scenes for Book 4 before finishing Oathbringer. It's a good bet that that Szeth's history with his spren is already canonized.
Windrunner he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 My opinion is that when Szeth was still at the Purelake, he had already attracted a spren. He was at the point of swearing the Third Ideal before Nale interrupted him. Szeth must have had a spren, as he and Nale went to Thaylen City whereas the Skybreakers seem to have remained in Marat. That is far beyond the distance that his powers should have faded. We also know that Szeth can’t be getting his powers from Nale, as squires are specific, as seen when Rock does not heal until he is moved nearer to Kaladin, despite the fact that Teft, a full Radiant with his own bond was within feet of Rock. (You can make the argument that squires work doffeeently between orders, but I think that’s silly without something to indicate it.) Therefore in my opinion, when Szeth arrived at Thaylen City, he already had already attracted a spren bond, despite not having yet sworn the Third Ideal.
rjl Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Windrunner said: My opinion is that when Szeth was still at the Purelake, he had already attracted a spren. He was at the point of swearing the Third Ideal before Nale interrupted him. Szeth must have had a spren, as he and Nale went to Thaylen City whereas the Skybreakers seem to have remained in Marat. That is far beyond the distance that his powers should have faded. We also know that Szeth can’t be getting his powers from Nale, as squires are specific, as seen when Rock does not heal until he is moved nearer to Kaladin, despite the fact that Teft, a full Radiant with his own bond was within feet of Rock. (You can make the argument that squires work doffeeently between orders, but I think that’s silly without something to indicate it.) Therefore in my opinion, when Szeth arrived at Thaylen City, he already had already attracted a spren bond, despite not having yet sworn the Third Ideal. If you read the text carefully - it's clear that having a spren bond is a pre-requisite for being able to swear the 3rd ideal; this implies that Szeth knew he already had such a bond before they took off for the flight as he was about to swear before Nale stopped him.
Erklitt Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 This begs a question I've thought about off and on: does the progression towards full KR have to be the same for all orders? I mean: when is the bond formed, when do they gain the Blade, when the Plate... After all, each kind of spren seem to be able to make their own rules, at least up to a certain degree. Some orders (Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Edgedancers...) need to find out what the words are, the Skybreakers are essentially told what they need to do, even if they still have to choose the actual wording. Lightweavers need truths. Is there anything in the text or a WoB to prove that '3rd' is always equivalent to Blade and 4th to Plate? (Maybe with the exception of Bondsmith, though we know that Dalinar was able to summon the Blade against the Stormfather's wishes.) Shallan had a shardblade very early on. Was she really at 3rd ideal (2nd truth) level back then? Syl was 'bonded enough' to suffer from Kaladin's betrayal even before he swore his 3rd ideal. Nale has sworn the 5th ideal. We've never seen him in Shardplate (AFAIK).
Windrunner he/him Posted November 27, 2017 Posted November 27, 2017 39 minutes ago, rjl said: If you read the text carefully - it's clear that having a spren bond is a pre-requisite for being able to swear the 3rd ideal; this implies that Szeth knew he already had such a bond before they took off for the flight as he was about to swear before Nale stopped him. I’m not sure if you’re correcting me or if you’re agreeing with me, but this is basically what I was trying to get across in my post.
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