[OB] Unity

[WhiteEmporer]

I am not entirely sure yet what I think of the "Dalinar unites Adonalsium" theory but I think it has a lot of merit. Dalinar already has definite ties to all three of the Shards on Roshar.

On Odium's comment, "we killed you," here's a point that may be relevant. We know, for several reasons, that as Shards go, Odium is more adept at using Fortune (seeing into the future). We also know from Renarin's visions right before that the visible future changed when Dalinar refused Odium. 

I think if "we killed you" refers to Adonalsium, it is because in that moment,  Odium was looking at not what Dalinar was, but what he could become. 

Edited March 16, 2019 by WhiteEmporer

[Shuffel]

13 hours ago, WhiteEmporer said:

I am not entirely sure yet what I think of the "Dalinar unites Adonalsium" theory but I think it has a lot of merit. Dalinar already has definite ties to all three of the Shards on Roshar.

On Odium's comment, "we killed you," here's a point that may be relevant. We know, for several reasons, that as Shards go, Odium is more adept at using Fortune (seeing into the future). We also know from Renarin's visions right before that the visible future changed when Dalinar refused Odium. 

I think if "we killed you" refers to Adonalsium, it is because in that moment,  Odium was looking at not what Dalinar was, but what he could become. 

What an amazing theory. I love it.

[Urtan]

We know what Odium wants. He wants to be the strongest being in the Cosmere and is trying to accomplish this by killing anyone powerful enough to oppose him. Could that be his Intent? To be the most powerful being? Rayse, as we know from Letters was not a good man. What if there are multiple ways to achieve Odium´s Intent and Rayse is just abusing this Shard in his own way.

Now Dallinar calls himself Unity. Looks like its unision of multiple Shards, and I think that Odium is most definitely in that mix. Now, where does that leave us? If it´s combination of all three Shards on Roshar, the Intent must also be mix of all three. Honor- uphold binding agreements or Oaths, Cultivation- to cultivate and make things grow, Odium- to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere. Now Unity must be combination of all three- To be lawful, most powerful being.Cultivation´s Intent only shifts the way he achieves that. Instead of killing other Shards, he is going to bind them to himself in some form of Oaths. He cultivates, he unites and is the most powerful being, thus Adonalsium will not be restored in the same form, but as Unity with all other Shards bound to it.

[Kramerfarve]

5 hours ago, Urtan said:

We know what Odium wants. He wants to be the strongest being in the Cosmere and is trying to accomplish this by killing anyone powerful enough to oppose him. Could that be his Intent? To be the most powerful being? Rayse, as we know from Letters was not a good man. What if there are multiple ways to achieve Odium´s Intent and Rayse is just abusing this Shard in his own way.

Now Dallinar calls himself Unity. Looks like its unision of multiple Shards, and I think that Odium is most definitely in that mix. Now, where does that leave us? If it´s combination of all three Shards on Roshar, the Intent must also be mix of all three. Honor- uphold binding agreements or Oaths, Cultivation- to cultivate and make things grow, Odium- to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere. Now Unity must be combination of all three- To be lawful, most powerful being.Cultivation´s Intent only shifts the way he achieves that. Instead of killing other Shards, he is going to bind them to himself in some form of Oaths. He cultivates, he unites and is the most powerful being, thus Adonalsium will not be restored in the same form, but as Unity with all other Shards bound to it.

Hey guy, welcome to the shard, but could you check out the last time someone posted in a thread before responding? This one died a couple months back. It’s an interesting convo, so you could easily start another thread yourself if you wanted to talk about this stuff. Thx

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Kramerfarve said:

Hey guy, welcome to the shard, but could you check out the last time someone posted in a thread before responding? This one died a couple months back. It’s an interesting convo, so you could easily start another thread yourself if you wanted to talk about this stuff. Thx

The site rules are very clear that necroing on this site isn't the great sin it is on others, and that it's usually better than making a duplicate thread (which will probably quickly get filled up with identical discussion.  

Quote

You're adding something to the discussion, that's fantastic! A lot of the Books forums will have theory threads, and if you have something to add to them which just perfectly fits the topic, better to revive a dead thread, right?

Making a duplicate thread with all the same info as an existing one is basically spamming, which is much more discouraged in the site rules:

Quote

It was superfluous and there was no need for you to post it. Does that make sense? That's why most forums hate thread necromancy, because it's superfluous posting. Essentially, spamming.

 

Yes, @Chaos did just announce that older, out-of-date topics are being closed.  But that's referencing threads that are two years old, not five months.  Those threads have been rendered moot by subsequent info from books/signings.  (E.g. reviving the "Are Damnation and the Tranquiline Halls the same?" thread now would be pointless.)  We haven't had a major Cosmere release since Oathbringer (likely not a coincidence that that coincides with the closing topics cutoff) and the last "Unity" WoB was in 2018.  

[Kramerfarve]

3 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

The site rules are very clear that necroing on this site isn't the great sin it is on others, and that it's usually better than making a duplicate thread (which will probably quickly get filled up with identical discussion.  

Making a duplicate thread with all the same info as an existing one is basically spamming, which is much more discouraged in the site rules:

 

Yes, @Chaos did just announce that older, out-of-date topics are being closed.  But that's referencing threads that are two years old, not five months.  Those threads have been rendered moot by subsequent info from books/signings.  (E.g. reviving the "Are Damnation and the Tranquiline Halls the same?" thread now would be pointless.)  We haven't had a major Cosmere release since Oathbringer (likely not a coincidence that that coincides with the closing topics cutoff) and the last "Unity" WoB was in 2018.  

Ahh my bad I haven’t been on here for a while, got used to some other sites. Didn’t mean to confuse anyone

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Kramerfarve said:

Ahh my bad I haven’t been on here for a while, got used to some other sites. Didn’t mean to confuse anyone

No problem.  There have been a rash of outrageous necros lately (like 5+ years).  

Edited August 26, 2019 by Scion of the Mists

[+Q10fanatic]

8 hours ago, Urtan said:

We know what Odium wants. He wants to be the strongest being in the Cosmere and is trying to accomplish this by killing anyone powerful enough to oppose him. Could that be his Intent? To be the most powerful being? Rayse, as we know from Letters was not a good man. What if there are multiple ways to achieve Odium´s Intent and Rayse is just abusing this Shard in his own way.

Now Dallinar calls himself Unity. Looks like its unision of multiple Shards, and I think that Odium is most definitely in that mix. Now, where does that leave us? If it´s combination of all three Shards on Roshar, the Intent must also be mix of all three. Honor- uphold binding agreements or Oaths, Cultivation- to cultivate and make things grow, Odium- to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere. Now Unity must be combination of all three- To be lawful, most powerful being.Cultivation´s Intent only shifts the way he achieves that. Instead of killing other Shards, he is going to bind them to himself in some form of Oaths. He cultivates, he unites and is the most powerful being, thus Adonalsium will not be restored in the same form, but as Unity with all other Shards bound to it.

This is an interesting theory, but I think you are confusing Odium's Intent with what Rayse (Odium's holder) wants. Odium hates. That Intent drives Odium to seek to dominate/destroy everything. Rayse, as far as we can tell, is a psychopath that was already obsessed with power and being the strongest. Rayse works well with Odium but someone else might not be as obsessed with power/weakness, even holding Odium.

I really like the idea that Cultivation could attempt to grow her power by combining with other shards. That seems to align with her own Intent very well but suggests that she may not actually be a "good guy" in the series.

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

I really like the idea that Cultivation could attempt to grow her power by combining with other shards. That seems to align with her own Intent very well but suggests that she may not actually be a "good guy" in the series.

A shard wants to apply their intent to other things not to themselves. Otherwise how would Preservation sacrifice himself or Ruin stay in one piece?

[Urtan]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

This is an interesting theory, but I think you are confusing Odium's Intent with what Rayse (Odium's holder) wants. Odium hates. That Intent drives Odium to seek to dominate/destroy everything. Rayse, as far as we can tell, is a psychopath that was already obsessed with power and being the strongest. Rayse works well with Odium but someone else might not be as obsessed with power/weakness, even holding Odium.

Does Odium really just want to dominate or destroy? We know of two separate and Shards with literally those Intents.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

As I said. Two different approaches to Odium´s Intent. If it was different, Rayse would have been warped and changed to match Odium. That didn´t happen, which means, that Odium has pretty much the same goal as Rayse.I think, that Dallinar would have to fix Honor and combine it with Cultivation to kill Rayse. After that, he has to combine all three shards, because Honor wouldn´t let Dallinar someone else take the curse of Odium.

Quote

I really like the idea that Cultivation could attempt to grow her power by combining with other shards. That seems to align with her own Intent very well but suggests that she may not actually be a "good guy" in the series.

With her proficiency with Fortune, it may have all just be a part of her plan to Cultivate Dallinar into Unity.

[+Q10fanatic]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

A shard wants to apply their intent to other things not to themselves. Otherwise how would Preservation sacrifice himself or Ruin stay in one piece?

Honor considered himself bound by his own oaths due to his interpretation of the Intent, did he not? Cultivation cultivates things. I don't see why it would be inconsistent to want to cultivate herself in some ways too.

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Honor considered himself bound by his own oaths due to his interpretation of the Intent, did he not? Cultivation cultivates things. I don't see why it would be inconsistent to want to cultivate herself in some ways too.

All shards are bound by the oaths they make even Odium.  Also Ruin would be breaking himself into as many pieces as possible to maximize entropy and Preservation would never sacrifice himself (he would be looking out for number 1).  Cultivation does not cultivate herself(in fact as a shard she realy can't change that much).  We have WoB confirmation on this BTW.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Karger

[Urtan]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

All shards are bound by the oaths they make even Odium.  Also Ruin would be breaking himself into as many pieces as possible to maximize entropy and Preservation would never sacrifice himself (he would be looking out for number 1).  Cultivation does not cultivate herself(in fact as a shard she realy can't change that much).  We have WoB confirmation on this BTW.

Preservation acted in the long term in sync with his intent. He sacrificed himself to preserve Scadrial. He knew with Fortune, that in the end Scadrial will survive. Ruin wouldn´t splinter himself, because he would NOT act in the way of his Intent. 

Cultivation is not changing herself, but preparing Dallinar to take her Shard to make HIM grow.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Urtan said:

Preservation acted in the long term in sync with his intent. He sacrificed himself to preserve Scadrial

I know this.  I did read all of Mistborn.  My point was that he did not preserve himself at the expense of Scadrial which if shards literally acted out their intents he would be doing.

39 minutes ago, Urtan said:

He knew with Fortune, that in the end Scadrial will survive.

Fortune is not luck!  Scadrial's survival was a long shot he just did the best he could.  Leras himself says that he is not sure that his brilliant plan would work or not.  Not all future sight is Fortune either.

41 minutes ago, Urtan said:

Ruin wouldn´t splinter himself, because he would NOT act in the way of his Intent. 

Ruin would not splinter himself.  I agree.  Shards don't act out their intents.

42 minutes ago, Urtan said:

Cultivation is not changing herself, but preparing Dallinar to take her Shard to make HIM grow.

Interesting theory.  Only Dalinar is not realy Connected to Cultivation by nature.  I don't see him growing into that.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

@Karger I'm not sure I'm catching your point... Why would Cultivation be unable to cultivate herself? 

Just because shards' intents aren't inwardly directed doesn't mean they are incapable of acting with intent towards themselves.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I'm not sure I'm catching your point... Why would Cultivation be unable to cultivate herself? 

Just because shards' intents aren't inwardly directed doesn't mean they are incapable of acting with intent towards themselves.

The shards are more like forces then they are like people.  I don't think that say gravity can change much.

[Urtan]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

 

Interesting theory.  Only Dalinar is not realy Connected to Cultivation by nature.  I don't see him growing into that.

He might not be Connected to Cultivation by nature, but he most likely is by choice. She gave him his boon instead of Nightwatcher (who is also of Cultivation).

Spoiler

“I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

This is his third Ideal... Sounds like he wants to change for the better every time he fails. Which to me sounds like something of Cultivation. 

[Vissy]

Dalinar's big character arc across the whole series is essentially a gigantic redemption arc. He wants to become a better person, and he's made big strides towards that. But he still hasn't fully dealt with the Rathalas incident and the fallout from that. I think that's a big hurdle he still has to get through in the future. Maybe it'll have something to do with his fourth or fifth ideal.

[bxcnch he/him]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

A shard wants to apply their intent to other things not to themselves. Otherwise how would Preservation sacrifice himself or Ruin stay in one piece?

I think Shards do apply their intent to themselves unless it's against their intent. I can very well imagine that Ruin would definitely splinter himself - but when you want to kill everybody, then you really shouldn't start with yourself. We never got to see what Ruin would have done after destroying Scadrial. I think it's possible that Ruin would eventually destroy himself. And Preservation only sacrificed himself because in that specific situation, preserving himself would have meant the destruction of everything else - which is even more against his intent. Or is there a WoB stating that shardic intents don't affect themselves?

On 8/26/2019 at 8:47 AM, Urtan said:

We know what Odium wants. He wants to be the strongest being in the Cosmere and is trying to accomplish this by killing anyone powerful enough to oppose him. Could that be his Intent? To be the most powerful being? Rayse, as we know from Letters was not a good man. What if there are multiple ways to achieve Odium´s Intent and Rayse is just abusing this Shard in his own way.

Now Dallinar calls himself Unity. Looks like its unision of multiple Shards, and I think that Odium is most definitely in that mix. Now, where does that leave us? If it´s combination of all three Shards on Roshar, the Intent must also be mix of all three. Honor- uphold binding agreements or Oaths, Cultivation- to cultivate and make things grow, Odium- to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere. Now Unity must be combination of all three- To be lawful, most powerful being.Cultivation´s Intent only shifts the way he achieves that. Instead of killing other Shards, he is going to bind them to himself in some form of Oaths. He cultivates, he unites and is the most powerful being, thus Adonalsium will not be restored in the same form, but as Unity with all other Shards bound to it.

I really hate spoiling all the fun by introducing "doylist" arguments here, but I really cannot imagine Dalinar/Unity flying through space from one planet to another to "unite all the shards". Everything involving Adonalsium and the vessels is more of a "Behind-the-scenes" hidden storyline and you are supposed to be able to read and enjoy the books even if you don't know of the Cosmere. After all, words like Adonalsium or Investiture barely show up in the stories at all, even the word "shard" has, I think, only been mentioned once or twice. It would be strange and out-of-place from a narrative standpoint to have a chapter devoted to Dalinar visiting worlds from other books, meeting Sazed for example, and then urging him to make an oath, before then traveling to Taldain to somehow convince Autonomy of all people to swear an oath as well - before then introduce all six of the mysterious unknown shards on worlds we have never even seen before in a single chapter. 

Unless you think that the "Unity"-thing will appear in the other books and not in SA. But I also don't see Harmony off-handedly mention that he has sworn an oath to a mysterious foreign god that just came by one day. Imagine you are watching Star-Wars and suddenly one of the Jedi says: "By the way, there's not only the Dark and the Light Side, there's also a red side, a green side, a blue and a purple side - each of which works in a different way - but these sides are not as important." And then it's never brought up again. You'd be terribly confused. That's how large-scale interactions between the shards and planets look for the more casual readers. I know that I'd have a lot of questions if I was unaware of the Cosmere and suddenly shards and foreign magic appear in a story I'm readinh. "What? There's more of these god-things? How is that even possible? Why didn't I know about that already? Where were they? Why didn't they try to stop Odium/Ruin/...? Are they evil?" I think Dalinar becoming the "King of Shards" or "Neo-Adonalsium" would have to much impact on the entire Cosmere - and you shouldn't need to read SA to understand the rest of the Cosmere. 

Besides...

(Spoiler for Wax and Wayne)

Spoiler

...Mistborn Era 2 is after SA, right? Unity doesn't seem very good at uniting the shards, considering that Trell and Harmony seem to be about to fight. 

  

 

[Urtan]

1 hour ago, bxcnch said:

I think Shards do apply their intent to themselves unless it's against their intent. I can very well imagine that Ruin would definitely splinter himself - but when you want to kill everybody, then you really shouldn't start with yourself. We never got to see what Ruin would have done after destroying Scadrial. I think it's possible that Ruin would eventually destroy himself. And Preservation only sacrificed himself because in that specific situation, preserving himself would have meant the destruction of everything else - which is even more against his intent. Or is there a WoB stating that shardic intents don't affect themselves?

I agree completely. You expressed my thoughts to a point. 

Quote

I really hate spoiling all the fun by introducing "doylist" arguments here, but I really cannot imagine Dalinar/Unity flying through space from one planet to another to "unite all the shards". Everything involving Adonalsium and the vessels is more of a "Behind-the-scenes" hidden storyline and you are supposed to be able to read and enjoy the books even if you don't know of the Cosmere. After all, words like Adonalsium or Investiture barely show up in the stories at all, even the word "shard" has, I think, only been mentioned once or twice. It would be strange and out-of-place from a narrative standpoint to have a chapter devoted to Dalinar visiting worlds from other books, meeting Sazed for example, and then urging him to make an oath, before then traveling to Taldain to somehow convince Autonomy of all people to swear an oath as well - before then introduce all six of the mysterious unknown shards on worlds we have never even seen before in a single chapter. 

This would have to be absoulute endgame of the Cosmere books. We would need MUCH more information and knowledge of the Cosmere for it to make sense. I don´t think we will get to see these events from Dalinar/Unity POV. That is pretty much the same with Sazed/Harmony. We got one chapter of Sazed/Harmony POV at the climax of three books and that was it. 

You pointed out, that we only got handful of Adonalsiums. Thats right. BUT in E2 Scadrial terms like Investiture, Connection, Fortune and such are getting much more common. Those terms are only now getting relevant. Imagine what will be relevant with spaceships and such (E4 Scadrial is supposed to revolve around space travel). We even KNOW that there is at least one space faring civilization in Sixth of the Dusk. 

There are at least 17 upcoming books . Noone expects we get so much exposition in a single book. If we get 1 Shard per 2 books, we still have 5 books to work with. 

Quote

Unless you think that the "Unity"-thing will appear in the other books and not in SA. But I also don't see Harmony off-handedly mention that he has sworn an oath to a mysterious foreign god that just came by one day. Imagine you are watching Star-Wars and suddenly one of the Jedi says: "By the way, there's not only the Dark and the Light Side, there's also a red side, a green side, a blue and a purple side - each of which works in a different way - but these sides are not as important." And then it's never brought up again. You'd be terribly confused. That's how large-scale interactions between the shards and planets look for the more casual readers. I know that I'd have a lot of questions if I was unaware of the Cosmere and suddenly shards and foreign magic appear in a story I'm readinh. "What? There's more of these god-things? How is that even possible? Why didn't I know about that already? Where were they? Why didn't they try to stop Odium/Ruin/...? Are they evil?" I think Dalinar becoming the "King of Shards" or "Neo-Adonalsium" would have to much impact on the entire Cosmere - and you shouldn't need to read SA to understand the rest of the Cosmere. 

Mistborn is going be at least least 13 books long. You might start reading E2 Scadrial and enjoy it, but a lot of things will not make sense. I´ve been there. It is already getting complex. You are supposed to be able to, but it isn´t as enjoyable. We still have at least 7 books to explain to us what is going on.

 

2 hours ago, bxcnch said:

...Mistborn Era 2 is after SA, right? Unity doesn't seem very good at uniting the shards, considering that Trell and Harmony seem to be about to fight. 

Odium was imprisoned on Braise for AT LEAST 4 thousand years. Time between Mistborn E1 and E2 is about 300 years. We have no idea when exactly SA happens, but 300 years is completely different scale. Harmony might just be too distracted with keeping out Trell to notice what is happening on Roshar.

[+Q10fanatic]

19 hours ago, Karger said:

All shards are bound by the oaths they make even Odium.

Yes, but they are affected in different ways. Honor is bound by the literal words of his oaths. Odium explained to Dalinar that he is governed by the intent behind the agreement and that he could not take advantage of a loophole in the way that Honor (theoretically) could.

Similarly, we know that Ruin was trapped by his agreement with Preservation but we also know that this was more of a loophole or a trick; Ruin was surprised when the agreement trapped him.

I think this shows that the Shards can be affected by their agreements with each other (I don't want to say "bound" or "oaths" since those have Honor-specific meanings) but that the mechanisms that affect each Shard change. I think the differences in the mechanisms reflect the differences in the Shards' Intents.

As far as Shards applying their intents to themselves goes, I think Honor being bound by the specific words of an agreement is a perfect example of applying his Intent to himself. I also think Preservation did his absolute best to Preserve himself during Mistborn Era 1, he just was overwhelmed by Ruin. That's not a failure to apply his own Intent, its that he lost the power struggle with another Shard.

[bxcnch he/him]

3 hours ago, Urtan said:

I agree completely. You expressed my thoughts to a point. 

This would have to be absoulute endgame of the Cosmere books. We would need MUCH more information and knowledge of the Cosmere for it to make sense. I don´t think we will get to see these events from Dalinar/Unity POV. That is pretty much the same with Sazed/Harmony. We got one chapter of Sazed/Harmony POV at the climax of three books and that was it. 

You pointed out, that we only got handful of Adonalsiums. Thats right. BUT in E2 Scadrial terms like Investiture, Connection, Fortune and such are getting much more common. Those terms are only now getting relevant. Imagine what will be relevant with spaceships and such (E4 Scadrial is supposed to revolve around space travel). We even KNOW that there is at least one space faring civilization in Sixth of the Dusk. 

There are at least 17 upcoming books . Noone expects we get so much exposition in a single book. If we get 1 Shard per 2 books, we still have 5 books to work with. 

Mistborn is going be at least least 13 books long. You might start reading E2 Scadrial and enjoy it, but a lot of things will not make sense. I´ve been there. It is already getting complex. You are supposed to be able to, but it isn´t as enjoyable. We still have at least 7 books to explain to us what is going on.

 

Odium was imprisoned on Braise for AT LEAST 4 thousand years. Time between Mistborn E1 and E2 is about 300 years. We have no idea when exactly SA happens, but 300 years is completely different scale. Harmony might just be too distracted with keeping out Trell to notice what is happening on Roshar.

Oh, sorry. I think I misunderstood what you wrote before.

So...the theory is that Unity will unite all the shards eventually, but not directly after his ascension? Because that's the impression I got from the original post. Okay, this way I can kind of agree to your theory.

I still don't really like the idea of yet another Shard-Fusion but it does make sense this way. My point before was that the Cosmere doesn't really feel very interconnected yet. If you took the Mistborn series for itself and only read that, there would be nothing implying a larger cosmology - even if you also read the other books, you'd probably miss a lot. If Dalinar (as Unity) would show up in Era 2 now and demand that Harmony swear an oath to him, then that would kind of be very hard to understand to the casual reader. But if the Unity-theory is taking place at the end of the "Cosmere Saga" as a whole, then I think that might work, yes.

[Karger he/him]

9 hours ago, bxcnch said:

I think Shards do apply their intent to themselves unless it's against their intent. I can very well imagine that Ruin would definitely splinter himself - but when you want to kill everybody, then you really shouldn't start with yourself. We never got to see what Ruin would have done after destroying Scadrial. I think it's possible that Ruin would eventually destroy himself. And Preservation only sacrificed himself because in that specific situation, preserving himself would have meant the destruction of everything else - which is even more against his intent. Or is there a WoB stating that shardic intents don't affect themselves?

It is great that you think that but I also think that you are wrong.  The majority of a shard lies in the SR where things exist in an ideal state.  How can a platonic ideal change?  Sure your perception of that ideal can change but the ideal itself can't.  A vessel's perceptions are certainly changed dramatically by holding the power of a shard but that does not indicate that the vessel changes themselves.  For example Cultivation is already growth in its ideal spiritual state.  How can she grow to become more growth?  That does not make any sense.  She might learn more about being growth and her capabilities as growth would still change but that is it.

5 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

Yes, but they are affected in different ways. Honor is bound by the literal words of his oaths. Odium explained to Dalinar that he is governed by the intent behind the agreement and that he could not take advantage of a loophole in the way that Honor (theoretically) could.

That is more a function on how the shard views the oath.  Honor sees oaths as vital strict exact things with specific demands.  Odium sees them more as a framework for a relationship.

[Urtan]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

It is great that you think that but I also think that you are wrong.  The majority of a shard lies in the SR where things exist in an ideal state.  How can a platonic ideal change?  Sure your perception of that ideal can change but the ideal itself can't.  A vessel's perceptions are certainly changed dramatically by holding the power of a shard but that does not indicate that the vessel changes themselves.  For example Cultivation is already growth in its ideal spiritual state.  How can she grow to become more growth?  That does not make any sense.  She might learn more about being growth and her capabilities as growth would still change but that is it.

Cultivation as a Shard can´t change. I agree. BUT you still can combine 2 different shards to make one greater whole. This is also growth.

Quote

That is more a function on how the shard views the oath.  Honor sees oaths as vital strict exact things with specific demands.  Odium sees them more as a framework for a relationship.

Does he? Stormfather even said, that there are some rules Odium must obey.

 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Urtan said:

Does he? Stormfather even said, that there are some rules Odium must obey.

Is their anything in the universe that does not obey some rules?

1 hour ago, Urtan said:

Cultivation as a Shard can´t change. I agree. BUT you still can combine 2 different shards to make one greater whole. This is also growth.

Not sure Cultivation would view that as growth exactly but this ties in to my theory.  I personally think that Dalinar will rip off a piece of Odium and give it to Cultivation in stormlight 5.