[OB] Lift cannot breathe in stormlight

[Leyrann]

59 minutes ago, Gildoania said:

Well she asked not to change, so maybe cultivation gave her some link to preservation?

Preservation has at this point in the timeline already been merged into Harmony though.

Then again, maybe it's still possible.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

3 hours ago, aemetha said:

Right, here's the thing though. Fat storage is what is known as the long term reservoir. Glucose is converted into triglycerides with three fatty acids which is then stored in the adipose tissue. This happens after food has been broken down into glucose though, so by Brandons commentary on it, this occurs after she was required to make the choice of whether it converts to glucose or stormlight.

It would, physiologically be a much tidier system if she did in fact convert glucose to stormlight, rather than convert to stormlight instead of glucose.

I think it's more an issue of she has used her reserves than she cannot metabolize fat into Stormlight. You are still metabolizing fat into energy, and so I would assume that, by his words, she can they choose to metabolize those storages into Stormlight as well. Wyndle made the same speculation in Words of Radiance.

Spoiler

“You’ve let yourself grow too thin,”Wyndle said. “Not good. You always use up the excess. . . . Low body fat . . . That might be the problem. I don’t know how this works!”

 

[aemetha]

3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

You are still metabolizing fat into energy, and so I would assume that, by his words, she can they choose to metabolize those storages into Stormlight as well.

Well, that would mean she metabolises glucose into stormlight. That would make more sense. The only problem I have with it is that Brandon specifically said she could choose to metabolise food into stormlight instead of sugars (glucose). Wyndles commentary can also be understood to mean that she chooses to convert too much food to stormlight and insufficient glucose is being taken on to contribute to the long term reservoir.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

7 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Well, that would mean she metabolises glucose into stormlight. That would make more sense. The only problem I have with it is that Brandon specifically said she could choose to metabolise food into stormlight instead of sugars (glucose). Wyndles commentary can also be understood to mean that she chooses to convert too much food to stormlight and insufficient glucose is being taken on to contribute to the long term reservoir.

I know Brandon sometimes chooses bets readers who are experts to double check this kind of thing. Since this isn't a hard plot point or on screen, we can assume soft concepts that might not be fully researched or explained correctly. In essence, an unreliable narrator. 

 

The way I'm imagining it, Lift has a second the of insulin that metabolizes into investiture. Investulin, if you will.

[aemetha]

4 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I know Brandon sometimes chooses bets readers who are experts to double check this kind of thing. Since this isn't a hard plot point or on screen, we can assume soft concepts that might not be fully researched or explained correctly. In essence, an unreliable narrator. 

Okay, that makes sense. So, if I can attempt to paraphrase your take on it:

1. Lift has an accelerated metabolism overall, allowing for faster conversion to glucose.
2. Lift can convert glucose from food to stormlight.
3. She can draw on her short and long term reservoirs (not that there is much of a long term one for her) to convert glucose to stormlight.

Which is nice and tidy, addresses the issue of her metabolism being slower than the time it takes for stormlight to leak, and her ability to store stormlight presents a practical benefit to her condition which is otherwise largely a limitation. It also addresses @Calderis concerns about stormlight always needing to leak from a human - she is not storing stormlight, she is storing glucose, but can choose to convert that glucose into stormlight when required, at which time it would leak as normal.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

Okay, that makes sense. So, if I can attempt to paraphrase your take on it:

1. Lift has an accelerated metabolism overall, allowing for faster conversion to glucose.
2. Lift can convert glucose from food to stormlight.
3. She can draw on her short and long term reservoirs (not that there is much of a long term one for her) to convert glucose to stormlight.

Which is nice and tidy, addresses the issue of her metabolism being slower than the time it takes for stormlight to leak, and her ability to store stormlight presents a practical benefit to her condition which is otherwise largely a limitation. It also addresses @Calderis concerns about stormlight always needing to leak from a human - she is not storing stormlight, she is storing glucose, but can choose to convert that glucose into stormlight when required, at which time it would leak as normal.

That's a good paraphrase. I just have one clarification I'd like to make. 

 

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

Lift has an accelerated metabolism overall, allowing for faster conversion to glucose.

Can you clarify in what context you're assuming her metabolism is accelerated? Faster than average for humans but not superhuman, or it's accelerated beyond human capacity?

My sister was a type 1 diabetic since before I can remember, and my girlfriend is as well, plus I'm a paramedic, so I have a lot of experience working with diabetics. Glucose can enter the bloodstream a lot faster than people tend to assume. With sugar under the tongue, sublingual administration, it can be almost instantaneous, whereas Lift's portrayal in WoR of a few minutes after eating isn't very far from accurate as far as my personal experiences with diabetics eating simple sugars/starches. With the unknown variable of how much Stormlight there is per calorie, especially given the safe assumption that the ratio's efficacy only improves as she progresses through the ideals, I don't think we need to make assumptions about the speed of her metabolism.

[aemetha]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Can you clarify in what context you're assuming her metabolism is accelerated? Faster than average for humans but not superhuman, or it's accelerated beyond human capacity?

It's from the WoB I quoted earlier in the thread.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that's how I'm working in my head. It's kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it's going to go faster for Lift.

 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

36 minutes ago, aemetha said:

It's from the WoB I quoted earlier in the thread.

 

I think Brandon might be underestimating the speed at which sugar can enter the blood stream as well honestly. His earlier statements about "metabolizing into sugar" shows that he has the basic concepts down but that he might not have done the in depth research, so I personally aren't reading much into that other then he assumes that there's a problem that might not actually be there and is doing pre-emptive handwaving. If Lift were to get the Rosharan equivalent of a pixie stick and keep it under her tongue, she'd be awesome in spades.

[Dahak]

On 23/11/2017 at 7:32 AM, Calderis said:

She doesn't have to metabolize into stormlight. She can eat normally. But she can choose to. 

If she does, I can't imagine that it doesn't leak. Stormlight by its very nature leaks. If it didn't, she would not glow with Stormlight. The glow is the stormlight escaping.

The reason that she can use stormlight seemingly longer than others is that food takes time to digest, and while it does, it continues to provide her with renewed Stormlight. 

At one point she thinks that her awesomeness disappears after several hours. That was in Edgedancer IIRC.

[PhineasGage]

Ok, so there is one thing I was thinking about this that I don't think anyone has mentioned that may be relevant.

Water from storms makes food grow better - I believe Kaladin thinks this in tWoK but I can't find the reference - he says something about finding it odd that scholars were excited about something that farmers had known for centuries iirc. I may be misreme,bering tho so if anyone can check for me I'd be grateful.

This does not seem to be to do with the crem from what I understand but more that the water is in some way providing stormlight/investiture to the crops. It would be interesting to know if Lift gets more stormlight from crops grown that way than from food grown with other water sources.

So, we know Lift can access stormlight from food, and from WoB we know she metabolises it into stormlight. I agree with @aemetha that in order for the metabolism aspect alone, Lift must be able to store it in some form. 

The reason I am linking it with the crops is that it implies that stormlight/investiture can be stored if the situation is right. Cultivation herself seems to be the key here because she would obviously be linked to crop growing and now she has made Lift able to do something similar. When plants grow and fruit, they are setting aside some of their energy for the purposes of reproduction, not because they necessarily have to be eaten (although some do propgate that way). Plants irl use sunlight to convert water and carbon dioxide into sugars and oxygen. They then convert many (but not all) of those sugars into carbohydrates. What if, stormlight is essentially bound within the complex chains of carbs like fibre and starch (the plant analogue to human fat) then is released when that polysaccharide is broken down. Plants might benefit from this by giving seeds additional energy to grow after the fruit/seeds are planted, most people wouldn't be able to access the stormlight because they would have no means of holding on to it, but Lift is just a little bit like a plant, and can convert at least some of the stormlight she consumes into fat for later storage? It doesn't work both ways though because when a person converts fat into a useable form of energy it doesn't get put back because we convert on an as and when basis. Lift clearly "summons" her awesomeness so perhaps she currently always gets it all at once rather than allowing conservation. As she progresses she may get better at drawing her stormlight slower/ on an more as needed basis and then she would waste less by leaking. 

Thoughts?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

54 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

When plants grow and fruit, they are setting aside some of their energy for the purposes of reproduction, not because they necessarily have to be eaten (although some do propgate that way). Plants irl use sunlight to convert water and carbon dioxide into sugars and oxygen. They then convert many (but not all) of those sugars into carbohydrates. What if, stormlight is essentially bound within the complex chains of carbs like fibre and starch (the plant analogue to human fat) then is released when that polysaccharide is broken down. Plants might benefit from this by giving seeds additional energy to grow after the fruit/seeds are planted, most people wouldn't be able to access the stormlight because they would have no means of holding on to it, but Lift is just a little bit like a plant, and can convert at least some of the stormlight she consumes into fat for later storage? It doesn't work both ways though because when a person converts fat into a useable form of energy it doesn't get put back because we convert on an as and when basis.

8

Brandon has specified sausage as well, implying it's not just plant-based products. So I don't think Lift's abilities are related.

I think it's less the water from storms than stormlight itself, which we know encourages plant growth from the Listeners. 

Quote

They were hauling rockbuds harvested on one of the nearby plateaus, plants which had been encouraged to grow quickly by use of Stormlight-infused gems.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 199). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

I don't feel particularly knowledgeable enough to comment on whether or not that's the likeliest method of action it would take to do so, but it certainly sounds really good to me!

Edited November 24, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[PhineasGage]

20 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Brandon has specified sausage as well, implying it's not just plant-based products. So I don't think Lift's abilities are related.

I think it's less the water from storms than stormlight itself, which we know encourages plant growth from the Listeners. 

As I said, I just wondered if there was a link - then because I am the sort of person who can't stop talking, the post just kept going!

That said, sausages have loads of non-animal material in them  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage#Ingredients

Maybe Brandon was specifically thinking of pork and apple sausages?  

[aemetha]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

That said, sausages have loads of non-animal material in them

Right, I like the idea, but I can't reconcile the exact mechanism by which stormlight is conserved in it either. Animal material originates as plant material anyway, it just becomes more animal in origin as it moves up the food chain. It seems logical that if plants do conserve stormlight then it would make its way up the food chain. Toxins that accumulate in an organism actually do that, making alpha predators more vulnerable to them as the toxin becomes more concentrated moving up the food chain. Stormlight would obviously be different because it's stored in a medium that is expended by organisms.

Although, perhaps all rosharan native ecology has some kind of capacity to do what plants do and store stormlight in fat? They have all developed to use stormlight with gemhearts. Gemhearts aren't perfect gems so it stands to reason there must be some kind of storage medium as well as a gemheart. If the way you hold your own weight up is dependent on stormlight then having it all leak out of your gemheart is a fatal situation.

I'm kind of thinking out loud in this post. Sorry, I know it's not very coherent, I did not sleep well. I think the only way we can reconcile this is if we write to Brandon and ask him to write a scene where Lift eats a Parshendi so we can see how awesome that makes her .

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Although, perhaps all rosharan native ecology has some kind of capacity to do what plants do and store stormlight in fat?

I wondered this myself. Clearly spren bonding is part of the normal lifecycle in Rosharan fauna - at least some of them. I have thought that the chasmfiends pupate in order to let them attract spren to help them grow bigger (ie the "luckspren")

If it were a RL situation, there would definitely be something available - life doesn't just let a resource like stormlight go past it whtout making an effort to use and store it. Energy of any form is too valuable a commodity. I'm using the example of various bacteria and archea that live round undersea volcanic vents. I mean some of those basically eat sulfur. Life finds a way to get energy whenever it can. Given that Roshar is based on the idea of a world that is like an underwater world and those black smoker bacteria are pretty well know, it wouldn't be such a stretch to think Brandon would use something like this.

I would say that the ecology would also use Stormlight in some way, so unlike the gradual accummulation in creatures as we go up the food chain, it would get used - at least a bit, at each level. It would simply be another useful commodity that, like energy in the form of calories, goes up the food chain. Like you mentioned, having a store might help with weight management and flight in some animals. I was also thinking that spren like stormlight. Even chulls have gemhearts which to me suggests that everything at least tries to bind a spren so perhaps they use stormlight to attract them? 

This is also a bit rambly, sorry - hope you sleep better tonight!

[Calderis]

@PhineasGage here's the paragraph you mentioned, from tWoK

Quote

To his sides, the more adventurous cremlings had already left their lairs, scuttling about, feeding on plants that lapped up the rainwater. Lirin had once explained that highstorm rains were rich with nutrients. Stormwardens in Kholinar and Vedenar had proven that plants given storm water did better than those given lake or river water. Why was it that scientists were so excited to discover facts that farmers had known for generations and generations?

 

[+Evendale]

Is it perhaps possible that Wyndle is a spren of Cultivation, not Honor? We know that normal spren are considered 'of Honor' while corrupted spren are considered 'of Odium'. Could it be that there are also spren 'of Cultivation', and Wyndle is one of them? Bonding a spren that is not of Honor doesn't mean someone can't be a Knight Radiant -- Renarin, after all, bonded a corrupted spren. And Wyndle is always talking about how he was a gardener, 'cultivating' things, and he also says that the other spren don't like them very much (maybe because they're different?). 

It seems logical that someone who bonded an Honor-spren gets their Stormlight from actual Stormlight, because it comes from the Stormfather, who is a spren of Honor. However, getting your Stormlight from food seems to perfectly fit in with Cultivation. It's clear that Lift is in some way linked to Cultivation -- maybe just through of her boon from the Nightwatcher, but I think it's more than that, it seems like Lift was in some way 'chosen' by Cultivation. When she appears in the vision, the Stormfather is really angry, saying something like, She's doing this to annoy me. 'She' could refer to Cultivation.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

13 minutes ago, Evendale said:

Is it perhaps possible that Wyndle is a spren of Cultivation, not Honor? We know that normal spren are considered 'of Honor' while corrupted spren are considered 'of Odium'. Could it be that there are also spren 'of Cultivation', and Wyndle is one of them? Bonding a spren that is not of Honor doesn't mean someone can't be a Knight Radiant -- Renarin, after all, bonded a corrupted spren. And Wyndle is always talking about how he was a gardener, 'cultivating' things, and he also says that the other spren don't like them very much (maybe because they're different?). 

It seems logical that someone who bonded an Honor-spren gets their Stormlight from actual Stormlight, because it comes from the Stormfather, who is a spren of Honor. However, getting your Stormlight from food seems to perfectly fit in with Cultivation. It's clear that Lift is in some way linked to Cultivation -- maybe just through of her boon from the Nightwatcher, but I think it's more than that, it seems like Lift was in some way 'chosen' by Cultivation. When she appears in the vision, the Stormfather is really angry, saying something like, She's doing this to annoy me. 'She' could refer to Cultivation.

This is relevant to you. Radiant spren are of both Cultivation and Honor.

Quote

Dragon13

Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Dragon13

Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren?

Brandon Sanderson

He would definitely... Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Dragon13

By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of Honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Nebraskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a Cultivationspren.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[+Evendale]

Thanks! That kind of confirms that, then? It seems logical that spren tied to different Shards come with different abilities, and that is why Lift cannot breathe Stormlight while everybody else can. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

5 minutes ago, Evendale said:

Thanks! That kind of confirms that, then? It seems logical that spren tied to different Shards come with different abilities, and that is why Lift cannot breathe Stormlight while everybody else can. 

Pretty much, except that Lift's food related investiture is strictly because of her interaction with the Nightwatcher, and therefore a special case as I understand. 

Quote

Argent

Do all Surgebinders breathe Stormlight in, or are there other ways? Is Lift one-of-a-kind in this regard?

Brandon Sanderson

Lift is one of a kind.

Quote

Questioner

So in The Stormlight Archive series--

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight Archive? How old are you? *laughter* How old are you?

Questioner

Nine.

Brandon Sanderson

Nine?! You're reading The Stormlight Archive? You are awesome! *cheers*

Questioner

So the character Lift, for her powers, why does she have to eat food instead of sucking in--

Brandon Sanderson

So why does Lift have to eat food instead of sucking in Stormlight. So Lift is a really weird one, she visited the Old Magic and asked something very strange. And the Old Magic didn't know how to treat that and answered with something equally strange. So you will eventually see what happened with Lift and things like that but suffice it to say some really weird things are going on with Lift.

I also found another one for you 

Quote

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Nashan’Elin]

I don’t have ebooks, so I can’t find quotes right now, but I feel like there were passages in Lift’s appearances, in WoK or Edgedancer, where she has a feeling of a reserve that she can draw on to become awesome, which I took to be (in my uninformed opinion) food in her, though I guess now it’d be stored sugars. It reminds me, almost, of Allomantic metal storages. She draws on this storage, and when it’s gone, she feels hungry (low blood sugar? I don’t really know) and has to eat to get more power. 

[aemetha]

@Ookla the Heraldic I think that's the conclusion we're all coming to now. BS has obviously put a lot of thought into Lift and how her ability to access stormlight works, and I just can't see him having the gaping flaw in the system that her not being able to store stormlight in a reserve would cause. There just isn't any practical way to use stormlight if it leaks faster than you can access it, so she has to have some form of stormlight storage that exceeds that of others. I guess any doubt would be over whether she stores it as glucose and converts that to stormlight, or if her nature being partly in the cognitive makes her able to hold stormlight more perfectly than others.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

@aemetha Next I see Brandon I'll try to convince him to canonize the existence of investulin.

[aemetha]

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Next I see Brandon I'll try to convince him to canonize the existence of investulin.

Thanks! Make sure to ask him about investacugon too, she'll need that to access any stormlight stored by the action of investulin.

I would really love to get a WoB on the subject honestly. I do however foresee a dark cloud hanging above the question, that if you look at in just the right way appears to spell out the letters RAFO.

[Fourth Of The Night]

*Cackles maniacally*

 

Finally, a topic that I can use my expertise on!

 

I would like to start with the fact that I believe in the WoB about "Stormlight instead of Glucose" is based on a flaw in Brandon's understanding of Metabolism and Aerobic Respiration. As a physicist turned writer, this is absolutely understandable. So, I would like to present:

Biochemist Approved Theory on Lift's Awesomeness.

(Please note that only a single Biochemist currently approves of this theory)

Lift can, instead of making ATP, create Stormlight from the Electron transport Chain. This explains how she can Store and Access Investiture when food isn't physically in her stomach, and how she can get Stormlight from foods that don't metabolize into Glucose (Protein-based foods). This would work similarly to Metals in Allomancy in that the ATP, when made, creates a link to the Spiritual Realm and burns away into Stormlight, which then Invests Lift.

[Bacon]

I don't know why she hasn't thought of how she could use her abilities to get infinite free meals from people. Injured people could just come to her with food. She'd put all of Kharbranth out of business and be fed constantly. Sounds like heaven.