[OB] Tien

[IntentAwesome]

 

I've seen a couple of comments about Tien being a possible radiant. Rather than taking over threads, I wanted to start a new one. I always thought the idea that Tien was a radiant was a bit of a long shot, but it was an idea that I liked. After Oathbringer, however, the evidence seems to be mounting.

Syl, talking about remembering Hearthstone:

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"Besides, there was...another voice. pure, with a song like tapped crystal, distant yet demanding..."

And then the Ghostbloods confirming that someone in Amaram's army was a radiant and was eliminated:

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"From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram's army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated."

And then this WoB I just found. (The arcanum is a beautiful thing!)

 

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Firefight Atlanta signing (Jan. 24, 2015)
#23 Share

 

KalynaAnne (Paraphrased)

I asked for something about Kaladin.

Brandon Sanderson

Kaladin has known multiple Lightweavers.

 

 

But my questions are these:

1. Was Tien aware that he had bonded a spren? If he was advanced enough for the Skybreakers to know of him, it seems likely.
2. What broke him?
3. Did Syl find Kaladin because he was near another Radiant? Kaladin has always seemed to be the odd man out (aka, not a Kholin and not in the middle of the action). 
4. If Tien really did bond a spren, then he would have been an early Radiant, bonding his spren around the time Jasnah became aware of Ivory. (I could be off on this, I don't remember the timelines exactly.) I guess that's not a question, I just find it interesting.

Thoughts?

 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

Anyone have a copy of WoK handy?  (I'm at work right now)

Been meaning to look up the exact wording of the flashback where Tien dies, in search of hints that could be Skybreaker activity.

[Willow]

While it's perfectly possible that Tien was one of the Lightweavers Kaladin has known, Hoid is also a (Yolish) Lightweaver, and he and Shallan could be the 'multiple' Lightweavers.

18 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Did Syl find Kaladin because he was near another Radiant? Kaladin has always seemed to be the odd man out (aka, not a Kholin and not in the middle of the action). 

I think Kaladin is the odd man out, because the other spren peoples were much more organized and prepared in bonding humans, picking important people in human societies, or in Lift's case someone who was blessed by Cultivation. Instead of that, Syl basically ran away and went off to look for the most Windrunner-ish person she could find with very little preparation, and ran into Kaladin. Shallan wasn't that important either, though she was near someone we know was associated with the Skybreakers.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Willow

[The One Who Connects he/him]

22 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

Kaladin has known multiple Lightweavers.

As mentioned, Shallan and Hoid count as Lightweavers, as might have been the apothecary fellow(we really do put every character under suspicion, don't we?)

However, there is another WoB regarding people seeing Lightweavers.

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Questioner

Have we seen another Lightweaver, as of Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... Yes. Depending on your definition. Straight-up Lightweaver? Like you could make the argument... the Order of Knights Radiant? That... that, no. But you have seen people Lightweaving. The skill.

We, the readers, have not seen another KR Lightweaver beyond Shallan.

[IntentAwesome]

@shawnhargreaves I just reread the section where Tien dies. The only thing I noticed was this:

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"There was an armored lighteyes at their front, in gleaming steel. He swung a sword."

So Tien was killed by an armored lighteyes, rather than just another spearman. Otherwise, there's nothing really fishy, other than these three messenger boys were separated from the rest of their group and set at the front by Varth.

As a sidenote, in rereading this scene, I noticed that Kaladin mentions not having felt any pain at being stabbed by a spear. Could just be coincidence and being overwhelmed by the battle, but it also could be a very early indication of Kal's bond.

@Willow I hadn't considered Hoid. Maybe. But in that case, everybody in our main cast has known multiple lightweavers. That wouldn't really be specific to Kaladin.

Good point about the other spren types being much more organized.

@The One Who Connects But, if I recall, Brandon has also pointed out that there's a difference between a surgebinder and a Knight Radiant, as the first is about ability and the second is a social construct. I could be reaching here, but I don't think not knowing another Knight Radiant excludes not knowing another surgebinder of the Lightweaver variety.

Edited November 22, 2017 by IntentAwesome

[Willow]

15 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

As a sidenote, in rereading this scene, I noticed that Kaladin mentions not having felt any pain at being stabbed by a spear. Could just be coincidence and being overwhelmed by the battle, but it also could be a very early indication of Kal's bond.

It could be adrenaline, or a combination of all of these.

16 minutes ago, IntentAwesome said:

@Willow I hadn't considered Hoid. Maybe. But in that case, everybody in our main cast has known multiple lightweavers. That wouldn't really be specific to Kaladin.

I'm trying (and sometimes failing) to be very careful with interpreting WoBs, as people asking questions can give Brandon Sanderson a lot of room to mislead them, see:

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Have we seen any characters who is a part of multiple [secret] organizations, for example the Ghostbloods and the Sons of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes you have. *photo pause* I've a big cop out there, because you of know of one who is in the Ghostbloods and the Lightweavers. You give me opportunities, and I will answer truthfully.

But I do think the WoB quoted a few comments above me makes the 'Tien is a Lightweaver' theory much less likely, regardless of surgebinder/Knight Radiant distinction, which is a shame.

[Seloun]

I always felt that the strongest evidence for Tien possibly being a proto-Lightweaver was the chasm scene, where Kaladin directly compares the effects Shallan and Tien both have/had on him:

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He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, the frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken.

Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway.

It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

“How?” he asked.

She shrugged lightly. “Helps if you’re crazy. Come on. I do believe we’re under a slight time constraint . . .”

She started down the chasm. He stood behind, feeling drained. And oddly brightened.

He should feel like a fool. He’d done it again— he’d been telling her how easy her life was, while she’d had that hiding inside of her all along. This time, though, he didn’t feel like an idiot. He felt like he understood. Something. He didn’t know what. The chasm just seemed a little brighter.

Tien always did that to me . . . he thought. Even on the darkest day.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 849-850). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

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She went on, fortunately, speaking of her youth and the terrors she had known. Kaladin had thought his life terrible, but there was one thing he’d had, and perhaps not cherished enough: parents who loved him. Roshone had brought Damnation itself to Hearthstone, but at least Kaladin’s mother and father had always been there to rely upon.

What would he have done, if his father had been like the abusive, hateful man Shallan described? If his mother had died before his own eyes? What would he have done if, instead of living off Tien’s light, he had been required to bring light to the family?

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 877). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

(em mine)

And note that Tien was a fantastic artist (also, see the similarities of Tien's effect on Kaladin near the end of the quote):

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“You like the rain, don’t you?” Kaladin finally asked him.

“Yeah,” Tien said. Of course, Tien liked pretty much everything. “Hard to stare up at like this, though. I keep blinking.”

For some reason, that made Kaladin smile.

“I made you something,” Tien said. “At the shop today.”

...

Kaladin sat up as Tien fished something out of his pocket. It was a small wooden horse, intricately carved.

“Don’t worry about the water,” Tien said, handing it over. “I sealed it already.”

“Tien,” Kaladin said, amazed. “This is beautiful.” The details were amazing— the eyes, the hooves, the lines in the tail. It looked just like the majestic animals that pulled Roshone’s carriage. “Did you show this to Ral?”

...

Kaladin looked at his brother, with his innocent face and affable nature. He hadn’t lost either, though he was now into his teenage years. How is it you can always smile? Kaladin thought. It’s dreadful outside, your master treats you like crem, and your family is slowly being strangled by the city lord. And yet you smile. How, Tien?

And why is it that you make me want to smile too?

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 617). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

There's very few people who affect Kaladin in this fashion; in particular, Syl has a lot of trouble trying to cheer Kaladin up.

Shallan's tendency to make people think better about themselves is put in terms of soulcasting:

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“You are lies and truth,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.”

“What does that mean?” It was hard to sketch with only the light of Salas to see by, but she did her best.

“You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

“Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t Soulcast anyone.”

“Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 278). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Contrast with:

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“You’re cheerful suddenly.”

“I don’t know. I feel better.”

“How does he do that? I wonder.”

“Who does what?” “Your brother,” Laral said, looking toward Tien. “He changes you.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 248). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The way Pattern describes it makes me think the 'cheerleading' part really is related to the combination of the Lightweaver surges (Transformation and Illumination). All in all, I think there's a lot of evidence for Tien being a Lightweaver or at least a Lightweaver candidate.

[Awesomness]

I´m certain Tien was a proto lightweaver.

What intrigues me is how Criptics choose their Radiants.

- We know Shallan was already advanced in her Truths when her mother tried to kill her, and her father went dark after that. What broke Shallan so much at such a short age??

- We know Kal and Tien had hard times due to the problem with the spheres and the people in Hearthstone. Was it enough to brake Tien so?

Maybe Criptics are drown to people who see things in a different light, and this, in their understanding, is a lie. Thus children are more attractive (its hard to imagine a 6 year old skybraker, isn't it?)

Edited November 22, 2017 by Awesomness
autocorrectionspren

[KidWayne he/him]

Don't forget that in WoR Kal describes Elohkar as "Dalinar's Tien." As we all now know, Elohkar was about to bond a Cryptic.

Edited November 22, 2017 by KidWayne

[Starla]

One other thing that points to Tien's possible lightweaver status is his fascination with the patterns and colors in rocks. Compare this with Shallan's constant commentary about the strata in Urithiru. 

 

18 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Maybe Criptics are drown to people who see things in a different light, and this, in their understanding, is a lie. Thus children are more attractive (its hard to imagine a 6 year old skybraker, isn't it?)

This is something I have thought about relating to Shallan. Could Pattern have been attracted to her because she had a vivid imagination as a child? I believe there is a WOB that says the cracks needed to form the nahel bond do not all need to come from trauma. Perhaps some cracks can come from a creative mind, where there the inner world and outer world do not always sync up. I could see Tien in this category, in his own little world creating horse sculptures, and a cryptic being drawn to that.

[Edvarin he/him]

I had a few questions/observations after reading this.

1. I know Hoid is sort of like a Yolish Lightweaver already, but then why did he choose to seek out a Cryptic to Bond? Was it the only type he could Bond, or do the Lightweaver surges offer more than what he could already do? It would make sense to me to acquire a completely different skill set, like Windrunner or Edgedancer, to expand his arsenal.

2. Tien being a Lightweaver makes sense. He shares a lot of similarity to Shallan. I saw someone mention here that he brought the smiles to his family, just as Shallan had to. Also, people asked what was so bad about his life? Well, for starters his dad is the town doctor. Tiens probably seen 10x the death as other kids his age. Plus hes got a moody, self absorbed older brother. And he saw himself as baggage since Kalladin was already their dads apprentice and the one they were going to send to school. Tien wouldn't have been jealous, but I'm sure he felt left out.  He barely got an apprenticeship at all and his boss didn't care much for his work, despite his talent. I don't think his life was that bad, but its all about perception really, and I can see how he could have been broken. My question here is, if Tien was a Lightweaver, then how come Syl remembers him?

 

3. 6 yr old Shallan, already a Surgebinder on her way to Radiancy...how could she be broken? Well, her Mom was basically in a cult and I don't think the dad suddenly became a monster because of what happened. I think it was there, caged inside already. I'm sure the family loved him still, but I'm also sure the feared him. No question here, just a few observations

4. Also, that explains why Elhokar saw Cryptics in the mirror! They wanted to Bond him!!! Mind. Blown.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Edvarin

[aemetha he/him]

6 hours ago, Edvarin said:

1. I know Hoid is sort of like a Yolish Lightweaver already, but then why did he choose to seek out a Cryptic to Bond? Was it the only type he could Bond, or do the Lightweaver surges offer more than what he could already do? It would make sense to me to acquire a completely different skill set, like Windrunner or Edgedancer, to expand his arsenal.

Because it isn't enough for Hoid to want to bond the spren. The spren must also want to bond Hoid. Hoid's background and nature is most appealing to a cryptic. An honorspren for example would very much object to his willingness to let the world burn and propensity for lies and half-truths.

[navahgar]

6 hours ago, Edvarin said:

1. I know Hoid is sort of like a Yolish Lightweaver already, but then why did he choose to seek out a Cryptic to Bond? Was it the only type he could Bond, or do the Lightweaver surges offer more than what he could already do? It would make sense to me to acquire a completely different skill set, like Windrunner or Edgedancer, to expand his arsenal.

I assumed Hoid was picking up that spren to save it from the voidspren/Odium, and wasn’t planning on maintaining the bond.  But if that isn’t the case, and he really does want to bond the spren, then I think that it’s less the Lightweaving surge and more the Transformation surge that he’s after.  Soulcasting could be a very valuable skill for an Allomancer.

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

2 hours ago, navahgar said:

I assumed Hoid was picking up that spren to save it from the voidspren/Odium, and wasn’t planning on maintaining the bond. 

Hoid collects access to magic systems everywhere he goes.  We don't know why, but he's done this on Sel, Scadrial, and Nalthis (plus probably more that we don't know about yet) before Roshar.  This is a strong enough pattern for him that we can be confident he wanted the bond, not just to save the spren.

[PhineasGage]

2 hours ago, navahgar said:

I assumed Hoid was picking up that spren to save it from the voidspren/Odium, and wasn’t planning on maintaining the bond.  But if that isn’t the case, and he really does want to bond the spren, then I think that it’s less the Lightweaving surge and more the Transformation surge that he’s after.  Soulcasting could be a very valuable skill for an Allomancer.

He specifically offers it truths which is a strong indication of his plans to bond it. "I know some juicy ones" is the line he uses to entice it.

[Calderis he/him]

And really, if he's going to bond any spren on Roshar, of course it would be a Cryptic. It has no limitations to abide by. He just has to be honest with himself. 

Pretty sure he's already doing that. So even if he already had access to some form of Lightweaving, he now gets soulcasting. I'm pretty sure having a companion to talk to at all times, and the ability to transform pretty much anything into anything else... Is more than worth some truths. 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

New favorite place I'd like to be a fly on the wall:  when Hoid offers these truths to his new spren!

[Leyrann]

4 hours ago, navahgar said:

I assumed Hoid was picking up that spren to save it from the voidspren/Odium, and wasn’t planning on maintaining the bond.  But if that isn’t the case, and he really does want to bond the spren, then I think that it’s less the Lightweaving surge and more the Transformation surge that he’s after.  Soulcasting could be a very valuable skill for an Allomancer.

Hm... Soulcasting stuff into the right alloy to be able to burn it... Very valuable indeed.

[Awesomness]

14 hours ago, Edvarin said:

3. 6 yr old Shallan, already a Surgebinder on her way to Radiancy...how could she be broken? Well, her Mom was basically in a cult and I don't think the dad suddenly became a monster because of what happened. I think it was there, caged inside already. I'm sure the family loved him still, but I'm also sure the feared him. No question here, just a few observations

 

I am pretty sure he became violent after Sallan killed her mum. It is implied that something strange happened to him. 

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“Keep cutting at those thorns, strong one, and make a path for the light. The things you fight aren’t completely natural.”

Fragmento de: Sanderson, Brandon. “Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The)”. iBooks. 

Yes, maybe he just escalated is violence after that event. Buy I have a feeling there's another secret.

[Fulminato he/him]

36 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Yes, maybe he just escalated is violence after that event. Buy I have a feeling there's another secret.

we have a WoB on the matter

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INTERVIEW: Mar 13th, 2014 WOR-Omaha, NE

MACEN

Was Shallan's father influenced at all by Odium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

In WoR there are some reference of the 'darkness' shallan's father had in his eyes. i found only this, but should be other in the book

He looked up as she walked back into the feast hall. She set the cup before him, looking into his eyes. No darkness there today. Just him. That was very rare, these days.
WoR of Radiance Chapter 65 "The one who deserves it"

[Ailvara]

I just wanted to make a sidenote that has been on my mind for a while. I'm amazed how much Brandon is inclined to tell us in q&a. Half of the time when I expect a full RAFO, he gives us something at the very least.  Then again, it's not like we won't be amazed by the final outcome anyway, so why bother. Ok, end of appreciation sidenote. 

[SweetLift she/her]

Just got to this part where Shallan is reading the letter. Definitely thought Tien. Still brainstorming about other possibilities, but I think it is a good possibility. But he couldn't heal himself...so maybe he had not spoken the words...

The carving he made for Kaladin, along with all the beauty he sees in his rocks and how he can make everyone feel happy makes me think for sure he had a spren hanging about 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Hello Brandon, 

Love the sample chapters that have been posted. One thing I wanted to ask -- is Tien in someway connected to what the dawn-singers were? Or am I insane for getting that feeling?

Brandon:
You're not insane, but you're not quite right either. The book (Oathbringer) will actually make some great strides in explaining this--so you won't have to wait long.

-----

So, uh - did we learn anything? Tien isn't a Dawnsinger, right? Those were the Parshendi? Right? So - like, what? The shin think stone is magic, and Then gives shiny stones - so? uh? Guys? 

Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Hello Brandon, 

Love the sample chapters that have been posted. One thing I wanted to ask -- is Tien in someway connected to what the dawn-singers were? Or am I insane for getting that feeling?

Brandon:
You're not insane, but you're not quite right either. The book (Oathbringer) will actually make some great strides in explaining this--so you won't have to wait long.

-----

So, uh - did we learn anything? Tien isn't a Dawnsinger, right? Those were the Parshendi? Right? So - like, what? The shin think stone is magic, and Then gives shiny stones - so? uh? Guys? 

So I think he acknowledged, that there is something more to Tien, but not dawnsingers. And he basically confirmed, that the hints from Oathbringer mentioned above are valid and intended.