[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Trell said:

What other types of relationship are you implying?

Professional, mentorship, apprenticeship, and friendships will all work.

[Trell]

Point, once again, to you.

[Bookish Ocelot she/her]

While Kaladin will probably end up with a romantic relationship at some point, the first step toward that is having a close friend he can talk to. He needs to learn that he can’t control everything and everyone first. 

[Karger he/him]

I don't think his problem is control I think that it is responsibility.  He learned to care about and be responsible for other people and that is good but he can't believe that if he does everything perfectly people will still get hurt.

[Alderant she/her]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Before I say anything on topic, thank you for this. I can't express how many times I have been frustrated with people who do not understand how insidious this problem is. It will not go away. It is not something that Kaladin will "get over." He can learn to cope with it, and he seems to be doing a bit better in this regard, but if his depression is why he can't be in a relationship, then he never will be. And I will fight tooth and nail against anyone who insists that it will "get better." That's unfortunately not how these things work. You can get better at dealing with it, but it doesn't go away.  I'm sorry you have to deal with it.

Thanks.

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

First, is his need for control. This has served him pretty well in his goals of protecting people, but Kal carries it well beyond healthy levels. He was initially startled at the idea of Bridge Four marrying and having children and living outside of the barracks, because that means it will be harder to watch over them. They aren't treated like his friends. They're treated like his children. His responsibilities. (as a side note, I think this specifically is what's holding him back from his Fourth oath.) 

In a romantic relationship this, combined with his tendency to take responsibility for things he had no part in... 

Second issue. That of him keeping himself separate. Kaladin shuts everyone out of his own thoughts and fears and emotions. He doesn't let anyone get close. Even in the chasm scene, that everyone holds up as a wonderful moment for him, he speaks of his past, but he carries on with the rote lies about how someone else killed the Shardbearer... Speaking by a script instead of being open and honest. 

There is not a single person, even Moash who Kaladin called his friend, who we've really seen Kaladin allow in. The closest thing he has to that is Syl, and that's a matter of the bond, not a choice. 

Kaladin does need a relationship to grow, and there are plenty available that he's neglected. A friendship. Because currently, he doesn't allow himself to even have that. There seems to be some promise there in his interactions with Adolin, but on the whole, Kaladin has fostered a wonderful environment for Bridge Four to build strong friendships while he watches from the sidelines like an over protective parent. 

He's currently not even a good friend. I'd like to see that he's capable of that before he pushes for something deeper. 

I'm not entirely sold on this. First, I completely disagree with this line:

Quote

There is not a single person, even Moash who Kaladin called his friend, who we've really seen Kaladin allow in. The closest thing he has to that is Syl, and that's a matter of the bond, not a choice. 

As I'll quote below, there is exactly one person that Kaladin has allowed in, someone who he's told of his depression and his struggles. Did he reveal everything possible? No, but he told that one person more than he'd ever told anyone else. See below:

Quote

“Please,” Shallan said. “I need to hear something other than that. Tell me.”

He shivered, but nodded. Voices. Voices would help. “It started when Amaram betrayed me,” he said, tone hushed, just loud enough for her—pressed close—to hear. “He made me a slave for knowing the truth, that he’d killed my men in his lust to get a Shardblade. That it mattered more to him than his own soldiers, more to him than honor . . .”

He continued on, talking of his days as a slave, of his attempts to escape. Of the men he’d gotten killed for trusting him. It gushed from him, a story he’d never told. Who would he have told it to? Bridge Four had lived most of it with him.

He told her of the wagon and of Tvlakv—that name earned a gasp. She apparently knew him. He spoke of the numbness, the . . . nothing. The thinking he should kill himself, but the trouble believing that it was worth the effort.

And then, Bridge Four. He didn’t talk about Syl. Too much pain there right now. Instead, he talked of bridge runs, of terror, of death, and of decision.

Rain washed over them, blown in swirls, and he swore he could hear chanting out there somewhere. Some kind of strange spren zipped past their enclosure, red and violet and reminiscent of lightning. Was that what Syl had seen?

Shallan listened. He would have expected questions from her, but she didn’t ask a single one. No pestering for details, no chattering. She apparently did know how to be quiet.

He got through it all, amazingly. The last bridge run. Rescuing Dalinar. He wanted to spill it all out. He talked about facing the Parshendi Shardbearer, about how he’d offended Adolin, about holding the bridgehead on his own . . .

When he finished, they both let the silence settle on them, and shared warmth. Together, they stared out at the rushing water just out of reach and lit by flashing.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Stormlight Archive, Words of Radiance, ch. 74: Striding the Storm

As you can therefore read from the quote above, your statement here

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Even in the chasm scene, that everyone holds up as a wonderful moment for him, he speaks of his past, but he carries on with the rote lies about how someone else killed the Shardbearer... Speaking by a script instead of being open and honest. 

is patently false. He doesn't even speak of the Shardbearer at all--because the focus for Kaladin was never the Shardbearer, it was Amaram's betrayal. The Shardbearer was simply a very capable weapon on the battlefield, but Amaram...Amaram was far, far worse. In fact, it's only after Shallan then tell Kaladin of her past that he even realizes that the Shardbearer has significance, even if only to Shallan. Granted, he doesn't tell her then either, but in his shoes I doubt I would have either. Not the right time.

As for control and responsibility, I don't know that control is necessarily the problem, as much as that Kaladin is not very good at delegating authority. He has a lot of difficulty placing trust in other people, believing (sometimes mistakenly) that he has to shoulder everything himself. In this regard, I think Bridge Four has been good for him, because he's been forced to break out of that mold a bit, but his problems with housing the men in the barracks seem to me to be less about control and more to do with a lack of forethought and interest in the lives of his men. Which is a general problem that needs fixed, but I also think it's a problem that will get better with time, especially if he can get some help.

Now, back to the point I made with the quote above--Kaladin did let one person in. Shallan. Whether you believe they are romantic or not, you cannot deny that he reveals quite a bit of himself to her in the chasms--more than he has revealed to anyone else. And then that girl went and chose another guy. That would hurt even a normal person, especially with how generally poorly she acts toward him in OB. Which brings me back full circle to my point about his depression a major hurdle that he needs to overcome--because that rejection, intentional or unintentional on Shallan's part, returns back as confirmation of his own lack of worth. As I said, I don't think his problem is just letting someone in, his problem is that he needs someone he can both let in, who will also help him to see that he has worth. For all the ways she helps him feel better, Shallan had her own issues in OB to deal with and she could not have been the kind of intimate support he needs. Not yet, anyway.

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Now, back to the point I made with the quote above--Kaladin did let one person in. Shallan. Whether you believe they are romantic or not, you cannot deny that he reveals quite a bit of himself to her in the chasms--more than he has revealed to anyone else. And then that girl went and chose another guy. That would hurt even a normal person, especially with how generally poorly she acts toward him in OB. Which brings me back full circle to my point about his depression a major hurdle that he needs to overcome--because that rejection, intentional or unintentional on Shallan's part, returns back as confirmation of his own lack of worth. As I said, I don't think his problem is just letting someone in, his problem is that he needs someone he can both let in, who will also help him to see that he has worth. For all the ways she helps him feel better, Shallan had her own issues in OB to deal with and she could not have been the kind of intimate support he needs. Not yet, anyway.

I think the interesting thing here is why he opens up to her in this scene and I can think of two reasons.  The first reason is that she needs him to open himself to her to stave off her panic and Kaladin is always at his best when he is truly needed by someone.  The other reason he connects with her is because of shared experiences they have both been through real pain and this is someone who can understand.

[Alderant she/her]

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think the interesting thing here is why he opens up to her in this scene and I can think of two reasons.  The first reason is that she needs him to open himself to her to stave off her panic and Kaladin is always at his best when he is truly needed by someone.  The other reason he connects with her is because of shared experiences they have both been through real pain and this is someone who can understand.

True, he is at his best when helping others. And she actually asks him to tell her the story, which implies a deeper connection in and of itself, on both parties. You don't just ask someone to share their innermost turmoil, yet not only did she feel comfortable asking, but he also felt comfortable enough to tell. And she didn't just make him tell either, she then told him something of equivocal importance to her. It's a very souls-laid-bare moment.

[Calderis he/him]

I'm sorry, but I still disagree. 

Yes the story was about Amaram and not the Shardbearer, but if you remove Kaladin killing them, then you do a lot of other things to the story as well. 

Someone else got the blades, which means there's nothing about why he gave them up. Nothing about why he was singled out to be a slave instead of killed. It requires Kaladin to lie to even explain why he's alive. 

If you expunge that detail from the story, it's reduced to Kaladin talking at length about the one topic that he has literally screamed to the warcamps as a whole. 

Please excuse me for not finding that to be the monumental step that I think Kal needs. 

[Alderant she/her]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm sorry, but I still disagree. 

Yes the story was about Amaram and not the Shardbearer, but if you remove Kaladin killing them, then you do a lot of other things to the story as well. 

Someone else got the blades, which means there's nothing about why he gave them up. Nothing about why he was singled out to be a slave instead of killed. It requires Kaladin to lie to even explain why he's alive. 

If you expunge that detail from the story, it's reduced to Kaladin talking at length about the one topic that he has literally screamed to the warcamps as a whole. 

Please excuse me for not finding that to be the monumental step that I think Kal needs. 

Define. How so? Make a case for yourself here, because all I'm seeing is an attempt at denial of the text itself because you're unwilling to accept an opposing opinion. For example:

Quote

"if you remove Kaladin killing [the Shardbearer], then you do a lot of other things to the story as well."

How does this work, in your head? Because Kaladin's story was never about the Shardbearer, the Shardbearer in fact was never even a defining feature in the conversation between Amaram and Kaladin.

Quote

"Someone else got the blades, which means there's nothing about why he gave them up. Nothing about why he was singled out to be a slave instead of killed. It requires Kaladin to lie to even explain why he's alive. "

Again, this leap of logic makes no sense. Is there a reason why giving them up is an important thing to be singled out here? More so than the wrong Kaladin himself perceives to be the greater? Further, the text in question says, point blank, " “He made me a slave for knowing the truth, that he’d killed my men in his lust to get a Shardblade. That it mattered more to him than his own soldiers, more to him than honor . . .” This isn't a lie, and it doesn't take a large leap of logic to know that a Shardbearer is involved if the point of contention is a Shardblade, though Shallan mistakenly believes that Amaram killed the Shardbearer because the topic wasn't actually broached between them. The point isn't that Kaladin killed a Shardbearer and gave up the Shards--that is an inconsequential, rather nit-picky point to base your entire outlook on, especially considering that the character himself places little weight on the Shards--the betrayal isn't the Shards, it's that Amaram killed his men in order to get them.

Finally,

Quote

"If you expunge that detail from the story, it's reduced to Kaladin talking at length about the one topic that he has literally screamed to the warcamps as a whole. "

This is reductionism at its very worst. Reread the passage I quoted again. If you notice, Kaladin starts with Amaram's betrayal, then proceeds to tell her his history from that point on. He doesn't only tell her of Amaram's betrayal (which he has told the warcamps in the duel) but rather he tells her of that betrayal, his failure of the slaves, his depression, thoughts of suicide, and all of his personal feelings with regards to being in Bridge Four! By saying that expunging the Shardbearer itself from his tale reduces that entire dialogue to the single, pivotal event that started everything is absurd.

Unfortunately, in this instance you bear the burden of proof. I have brought forth textual evidence and the man's own words--incontrovertible evidence, as you've phrased it in the past. If you want to make your case then do so, but I won't sit here and let you reduce what actually was a pivotal and monumental moment for the character, the very moments that enabled him to go against Moash later and save Elhokar, the very moments that enable him to progress as a character. In this case, I believe that you are wrong. Change my mind.

[Calderis he/him]

I'm not trying to change your mind. I said I disagree. 

Speaking of his depression and suicidal thoughts is definitely a step that I did not mean to minimize. That is big. In that regard you are correct and yes, that is something I overlooked.

I still feel like the Chasms in general are a situational issue, more than a true connection, but that is a point I've made many times and isn't well received here so I'll let it lie. I have no desire for this to be as combative as it always seems to be.

[Alderant she/her]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not trying to change your mind. I said I disagree. 

Fair enough.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Speaking of his depression and suicidal thoughts is definitely a step that I did not mean to minimize. That is big. In that regard you are correct and yes, that is something I overlooked.

Okay. Glad we're on the same page here, and thank you for that concession.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I still feel like the Chasms in general are a situational issue, more than a true connection, but that is a point I've made many times and isn't well received here so I'll let it lie. I have no desire for this to be as combative as it always seems to be.

It doesn't have to be combative, but (especially when discussing with me) as the opposing side you do bear a burden of proof to show how it is not. If you don't, then it comes across as dismissive--which in turn frustrates the opposite side, because it seems like you're not treating them as an equal. I'm sure that's not what you're trying to do.

As I have said, I feel that the chasms were a pivotal moment. It was definitely a situational occurrence, but life and death situations have a way of creating deep connections even in the real world. (Brothers in Arms, fellows in captivity, etc.) So I don't think the fact that it was a situational occurrence excludes it creating a true connection, rather that the situation is the greasing oil, if you understand my meaning.

Regardless, we can agree to disagree on this topic.

[deacon he/him]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

It doesn't have to be combative, but (especially when discussing with me) as the opposing side you do bear a burden of proof to show how it is not. If you don't, then it comes across as dismissive--which in turn frustrates the opposite side, because it seems like you're not treating them as an equal. I'm sure that's not what you're trying to do.

Requiring people to back up their opinion with quotes and quotes every single time an opinion is expressed comes off as combative, especially when the person already said they weren't interested in debating to change minds.

If people don't want to do that every time, they don't. Recognizing that the burden of proof lies on people who make claims and want to be believed, but sometimes we have to leave it in a "frustrating" place when we're trying to avoid fights.

[DDwindrunnerFB43 he/him]

*This is all my own opinion, me giving my two cents 

I don’t feel like Kaladin is ready for a romantic relationship, especially with Shallan. He is so possessive and controlling, and blames himself for everything. Shallan is a Knights Radiant, and will be in danger. If she is on a mission, he will be unable to focus on anything else. And if she is hurt, he will blame himself. I feel he needs to grow to let others make their own choices and accept he can’t keep everyone from harm. Then he’ll be ready. And Shallan, right now, isn’t in a great place, and having a relationship with Kaladin, who’s just as broken, might not be the best thing for her right now. While I could see Kaladin and Shallan getting into a relationship, I don’t really want it to happen. I like Shallan and Adolin. And I think there is love there. I know people are saying Adolin doesn’t think of her, but a couple things. One, it is the middle of the apocalypse, and he just killed Sadeas. Two, I feel like though it’s never stated he’s in love, I feel it can be read in between the lines that he has feelings for her. And three, has he ever been in love before? He switched between girls before so fast, he never has felt love before. Attraction? Yes. Real love? No. And even if he doesn’t feel love yet for Shallan, I think he will grow to. The multiple personalities is probably disconcerting. And they haven’t had a ton of time yet to really get to know each other, because again, the Desolation. So, as they spend more time, I think they will grow to really, truly love each other. A lot of people say that Shallan shouldn’t be with Adolin because she doesn’t love him. But, she doesn’t love Kaladin either. Relationships don’t start with people in love most of the time. They start with attraction and grow into love. I know people say she shouldn’t have married Adolin because she doesn’t love him, but it was a political one. And there is attraction, it just hasn’t had time to be nurtured into love. They have problems, like Shallan’s personalities and Adolin’s confidence. This relationship has immense room for growth, which I look forward to. Shallan growing to not need the personalities will be really nice. Like, really really nice. And Adolin’s confidence is something I really want to see explored. Because once Adolin saw Shallan and as Radiants, he feels small, which has never happened before. Plus, I feel he is tired of failing at relationships. He wants this to work, because he is attracted to her, more so than any other girl before(imo). This is what I believe causes him to be so hesitant to accept Shallan likes him and give her so many outs at the end of OB. He is a genuinely nice guy and doesn’t want force her, but he’s also unsure. He feels Kaladin is better than him, and is not accustomed to the “best” not winning, being Alethi. He sees himself as inferior, so doesn’t understand how Shallan is picking him. Finally, he is so tired of failing, and wants this to last long term. Therefore, I believe that he gave her every chance to walk away and think what a relationship with Kaladin would be like now, so if she picks him, it will last for the long haul. All just the feelings and opinions of another fan waiting for SA 4. I’d love your responses, and if you disagree, remember, these are opinions not facts. If you disagree, great, we can have discussion, but don’t attack me, just peacefully disagree. I saw this tread has gotten heated in the past and don’t want that to happen again. Thanks, and have a great day. 

[insert_anagram_here]

10 hours ago, deacon said:

Requiring people to back up their opinion with quotes and quotes every single time an opinion is expressed comes off as combative

And yet when I first joined the forums and expressed a theory on a thread the reply I got from an Arcanist was:

Quote

Isn't persuading someone to see something your way the point of arguing?  Hmmm.  As I said earlier, building theories based on evidence is great, we all do it and it's fun.

But coming up with an idea and forcing the evidence to stretch to meet your conclusion (i.e. assuming things to the point of implausibility)...well you can do it, but expect to be shot down.

I don't see why there should be a double standard of expectation to what's happening now.

 ( The irony is that in that case I just wanted to discuss a theory, which by definition isn't supposed to have proof but is a supposition in order to explain something.
On the contrary, here we are supposed to be discussing how we interpret Kaladin which is already described extensively in the books. The proof is in there but somehow people shape their own opinion regardless of in book proof. )

But let's go back one step, there is a misunderstanding, to the use of the word 'combative'. Discussion is not combat. Nobody is attacking you personally, not physically nor verbally. Most of the time there isn't even sarcasm or passive aggression. It's just that sometimes there is a request that arguments are backed up by proof. Is that really so irrational?

10 hours ago, DDwindrunnerFB43 said:

He is so possessive and controlling

I agree with most of your post, except from this part above. I honestly never had the impression that Kaladin was possessive or controlling. I'm genuinely perplexed why people, not just you, are expressing this. I honestly want to know if I'm missing some big in book scene that proves this and I just never saw it staring me back in the face.

[DDwindrunnerFB43 he/him]

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

 

I agree with most of your post, except from this part above. I honestly never had the impression that Kaladin was possessive or controlling. I'm genuinely perplexed why people, not just you, are expressing this. I honestly want to know if I'm missing some big in book scene that proves this and I just never saw it staring me back in the face.

I understand why you think this. I think it’s hinted at a bit in some scenes(sorry no specifics, haven’t read SA in a while). But to me, more than anything, it’s a gut feeling that if he was in a relationship, he wouldn’t let his partner be themselves. I feel like he’d always be overprotective and be scared over every little thing that had a chance of hurting her. Maybe possessive and controlling is a bit harsh, but I can’t think of a better way to describe how he’d be in a relationship at this point. Just my opinion and gut more than anything tbh. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by DDwindrunnerFB43

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 3/21/2019 at 3:44 PM, Alderant said:

while purporting that Shallan's "apparently western" signs of infatuation are valid implies selective reasoning, which is poor grounds for discussion.

Shallan is

1. minor gentry
2. a woman (it matters under Vorinism)
3. 17
4. a civillian
5. a country bumpkin
6. not entirely right in the head
7. Veden
8. a younger sibling, not the heir
9. not a professional killer. How many has Adolin killed in battle? Hundreds for sure, maybe thousands.

Different circumstances, different people, different reactions

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, DDwindrunnerFB43 said:

I understand why you think this. I think it’s hinted at a bit in some scenes(sorry no specifics, haven’t read SA in a while). But to me, more than anything, it’s a gut feeling that if he was in a relationship, he wouldn’t let his partner be themselves. I feel like he’d always be overprotective and be scared over every little thing that had a chance of hurting her. Maybe possessive and controlling is a bit harsh, but I can’t think of a better way to describe how he’d be in a relationship at this point. Just my opinion and gut more than anything tbh. 

This is directly contradicted by what happened in the books, both in WoR and in Oathbringer. Kaladin was the one who understood Shallan's strength and let her do her thing whereas Adolin was the overprotective, stifling one. Moreover, Kaladin's not dumb - he knows that a Radiant is more than capable of protecting themselves against any conventional foes.

Spoiler

Also we should all probably keep the term 'sealioning' in mind.

Not saying that this has occurred but we can agree to disagree if there is no desire to engage in a debate 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Vissy

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Vissy said:

This is directly contradicted by what happened in the books. Kaladin was the one who understood Shallan's strength and let her do her thing whereas Adolin was the overprotective, stifling one.

Right up until she asked him to stop. Which he did. 

Kaladin's struggles with delegating authority is a control issue. If he doesn't take care of it, they could get hurt. If he doesn't know where someone is he can't protect them. 

The difference between his treatment of Shallan, and his treatment of Bridge Four is that he doesn't view Shallan as his responsibility. She's not someone who he's supposed to take care of. 

If their relationship actually went somewhere, I don't think that would hold. 

[Vissy]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Right up until she asked him to stop. Which he did. 

Kaladin's struggles with delegating authority is a control issue. If he doesn't take care of it, they could get hurt. If he doesn't know where someone is he can't protect them. 

The difference between his treatment of Shallan, and his treatment of Bridge Four is that he doesn't view Shallan as his responsibility. She's not someone who he's supposed to take care of. 

If their relationship actually went somewhere, I don't think that would hold. 

I'm not quite sure if Kaladin has even had the opportunity to delegate authority so far - consider that he has been the lone Radiant among Bridge Four for almost the entirety of the three books. And I really haven't seen much of a problem in that regard in Kaladin either way, the larger issue is that he keeps blaming himself for everything that happens. Now that Teft has joined him on the third stage of Radiancy I doubt Kal's just going to keep hogging all of the authority to himself. He might still want to take all of the responsibility himself but he might just as well listen to reason once someone brings the issue up with him, just like Adolin did. 

[deacon he/him]

8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And yet when I first joined the forums and expressed a theory on a thread the reply I got from an Arcanist was:

I don't see why there should be a double standard of expectation to what's happening now.

 ( The irony is that in that case I just wanted to discuss a theory, which by definition isn't supposed to have proof but is a supposition in order to explain something.
On the contrary, here we are supposed to be discussing how we interpret Kaladin which is already described extensively in the books. The proof is in there but somehow people shape their own opinion regardless of in book proof. )

But let's go back one step, there is a misunderstanding, to the use of the word 'combative'. Discussion is not combat. Nobody is attacking you personally, not physically nor verbally. Most of the time there isn't even sarcasm or passive aggression. It's just that sometimes there is a request that arguments are backed up by proof. Is that really so irrational?

Umm... Okay, there's a lot to respond to here.

So the first thing, when you ask about a double standard, it's like... I - and many other people here - were not involved in that. I wasn't there, I have no idea what situation you're talking about. This forum is not a closed room where it's divided between our friends and our enemies, this is a public place. I am not aware of the perception of a double standard because to you, I'm a stranger, and there is no reason you should expect me, or anyone else, to be aware of all the ways other members here might have slighted you. Not everyone here is here reading every thread and paying attention to the nuances of every interaction. There are a lot of people here and I only get the chance to come on here a little bit after work and some weekends. I don't know what happened between you and other members.

Which leads me to number two, which is the concept that if someone did something to you in one time and place, that means you can do the same to other members? Members who weren't there and might not even agree with what was said to you? That's not what fair is. That's not fair to other people here who were and are uninvolved in this other event. If it didn't feel good when they said to you, why is it okay to make other people feel that way? 

As to the use of the word combative - Alderant was the one who used the word first, and also, discussions can become heated and hostile. That's what we mean when we talk about being combative. When you're in combat, you're looking for reasons that other people are trying to dismiss you even if that's not what they meant, reacting strongly to perceived criticism. Those are things that happen in these kinds of discussions. 

so tl;dr If people have the drive to persuade and convince others, when met with doubt, they can decide they want to give their evidence and dive into the explanations and etc etc. If someone just wanted to explain what they think without getting into an argument about it, they get to decide they don't want to get into a whole big thing about it. Nobody is ever required to give more than they want, no matter what.

[insert_anagram_here]

@deaconI'm surprised that the forum culture I mentioned above has never fallen into your vision. It is the same in almost every theory thread.

And I never said I didn't feel good when it was said to me, I'm not that soft hearted I was just a new member getting used to how things work here I guess and I did express my opinion on the matter without any combative attitude. (Certainly I made the mistake of thinking that an Arcanist was some kind of moderator back then, but I hardly took offence either way.)

Lastly I never demanded anything from anyone specifically, I just requested proof in case there was any, for my personal curiosity. There is no police holding you down to answer, you can even add me on your ignore list if my presence bothers you so. I'm just here for the discussion and if you don't want to participate it's more than fine.

[deacon he/him]

@insert_anagram_here I'm not upset or bothered by your presence at all. I was actually surprised that you spoke to me, because I wasn't part of the conversation earlier in this thread that I was commenting on. Perhaps me sticking my nose in that conversation gets the same in return! I know you didn't demand anything, but you did respond to me on that subject, so I answered. The forum culture that I have noticed is a lot of snippiness and hostility suddenly boiling up. It's like walking through a mine field, and I have no idea what it is that sets it off. So I've decided to just be clear as possible, and deal with everything else as it happens. Evidently you have a lot of history here, but with new users every day, I'd suspect it's a shrinking proportion of users who are able to navigate said mine field.

[Angsos]

I believe Kal's issues will come to a head in book 4 and maybe Teft's too. They both got someone killed because of it. I'm sure Teft can get help of some kind but Kal will take alot more time. Kal needs to understand the balance his father failed to teach him. Kaladin from Stormlight and Rand from Wheel of Time have much in common, including faults, I just hope it doesn't take all 10 books for Kal to fix himself.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, deacon said:

The forum culture that I have noticed is a lot of snippiness and hostility suddenly boiling up. It's like walking through a mine field, and I have no idea what it is that sets it off.

Now you know how I feel everytime I dare to criticize Adolin.

[deacon he/him]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Now you know how I feel everytime I dare to criticize Adolin.

I'm going to be honest, I'm not really sure how to respond... Do you want to talk in PMs?