[OB] Kaladin's Character Progression

[Greywatch she/her]

1 hour ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree a bit with both of you. I think an arc can be about failure, but if it is then it is quite disappointing and depressing. I also think Kaladin's arc in OB is set up for what comes next. Not sure a character arc of failure is beyond criticism. If Kaladin had died in OB, I would have a lot of criticism. I would say things like this is pointless; this was a waste of my time.

What we think of such arcs is purely opinion, but no one is saying that a character arc of failure is beyond criticism - more that it shouldn't be criticized for the sole reason that failure happened. His arc in OB isn't incomplete or wrong because it. It didn't make people feel good, and there are certainly people who weren't expecting Kaladin to have this arc, but it is valid.

[wotbibliophile]

I thought @Vissy was saying it is beyond criticism.

I liked Kaladin's arc. All of it. I was excited to see what would happen in the next book. It left me feeling anticipation.

[Vissy]

9 hours ago, Greywatch said:

What we think of such arcs is purely opinion, but no one is saying that a character arc of failure is beyond criticism - more that it shouldn't be criticized for the sole reason that failure happened. His arc in OB isn't incomplete or wrong because it. It didn't make people feel good, and there are certainly people who weren't expecting Kaladin to have this arc, but it is valid.

It is objectively an incomplete arc, though. There was no resolution to it. The resolution will come in Book 4.

EDIT - I should be clearer. There were several "plot arcs" for Kaladin in OB, and one of them (Amaram) was resolved, which was the most shallow and the one that his chapters devoted least page time to (if any). The others (his failures, his hero complex, 4th Ideal, and arguably his romantic subplot) were all left unresolved. Kaladin didn't progress or regress as a character during this book, because there was no page time left to do so. That is the reasoning why I call this a set-up for a character arc, rather than a character arc.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Vissy

[Greywatch she/her]

9 hours ago, Vissy said:

It is objectively an incomplete arc, though. There was no resolution to it. The resolution will come in Book 4.

EDIT - I should be clearer. There were several "plot arcs" for Kaladin in OB, and one of them (Amaram) was resolved, which was the most shallow and the one that his chapters devoted least page time to (if any). The others (his failures, his hero complex, 4th Ideal, and arguably his romantic subplot) were all left unresolved. Kaladin didn't progress or regress as a character during this book, because there was no page time left to do so. That is the reasoning why I call this a set-up for a character arc, rather than a character arc.

Moving along is progress, even if it's not what we'd call positive growth. Him developing such empathy for the singers such that he couldn't fight them is progress. His inability to say the fourth ideal is progress. His inability to let go of his hero complex is progress. These things are events, and just because they didn't end satisfyingly doesn't mean it's just set-up. OB is only part of a series, but there are complete arcs within the books. Kaladin getting challenged and freezing instead of making decisive action is characterization. His character isn't being left behind or ignored or left incomplete; this is a complete arc within his broader story. Some of those things you mentioned, like his hero complex, have been unresolved since WoK. Sometimes people fail and they don't immediately get to fix it. Sometimes you just fail. He'll get back up and try again in the next one, but things ending without catharsis or redemption does not mean it's incomplete. Resolution of an arc doesn't mean everything has to fixed by the end. Sometimes the resolution is just accepting it as it is.

[wotbibliophile]

I've changed my mind. I am siding with @Vissy on this. I think Kaladin's arc is incomplete because it lacks resolution. Contrast with Dalinar and Moash. I would say they both had resolution in their arc's in OB. And I would say Kaladin had complete arcs in WOK and WOR. This incompleteness is a first for him. My reasoning is the same as @Vissy.

[Ripheus23]

Random question, but what would happen if Kaladin and Syl got married? Could that be his 4th or 5th Ideal or w/e? Or some totally newfangled Honor-bond... 

(Kaladin would be able to get rid of his dread about Syl "rooting him on," sort of, too )

[Angsos]

@VissyIt was more important for Rock to have issues about killing Amaram than for those two to have a mono a mono fight to the death. His failures and hero complex are intertwined with the fourth ideal and the love triangle isn't really his or Adolin's, it's Shallan and until she and Stephen Leeds have a conference, that won't be resolved either.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I would argue that Kaladins OB arc is a complete arc. He finally accepts that he can’t always be a hero. He accepts that everyone can’t be saved. These are huge steps for his character. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Scion of the Mists]

An arc can be complete even if it ends in failure.  It may not be very popular, as evidence by the majority of media having happy endings and also this thread.  

[Nymeros]

On 8/22/2018 at 6:38 PM, Greywatch said:

What we think of such arcs is purely opinion, but no one is saying that a character arc of failure is beyond criticism - more that it shouldn't be criticized for the sole reason that failure happened. His arc in OB isn't incomplete or wrong because it. It didn't make people feel good, and there are certainly people who weren't expecting Kaladin to have this arc, but it is valid.

Exactly. If the purpose of an arc is to have your characters experience and explore failure, saying "well he didnt succeed at all! why even have the plot if the character wasn't going to accomplish his goal?" isnt really a valid criticism.

On 8/23/2018 at 3:59 AM, Vissy said:

It is objectively an incomplete arc, though. There was no resolution to it. The resolution will come in Book 4.

EDIT - I should be clearer. There were several "plot arcs" for Kaladin in OB, and one of them (Amaram) was resolved, which was the most shallow and the one that his chapters devoted least page time to (if any). The others (his failures, his hero complex, 4th Ideal, and arguably his romantic subplot) were all left unresolved. Kaladin didn't progress or regress as a character during this book, because there was no page time left to do so. That is the reasoning why I call this a set-up for a character arc, rather than a character arc.

This is a series; of course his character development will be continuous for quite some time. I never expected Kaladin to speak all of his oaths, become the man he was meant to be, and stop progressing in book 3 out of 10.

Way of Kings was about exploring leadership and Kaladin's arc in that book revolved around him taking responsibility for his fellows and stepping back into a leadership role. Words of Radiance was about Kaladin learning to let go of his prejudices and hatred. Oathbringer was about Kaladin, despite all his power and allies, failing to accomplish his objectives and learning to let himself be saved instead. His story isn't done and he is constantly developing but I would say those arcs were pretty much wrapped up.

How do you define a character arc Vissy?

13 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I would argue that Kaladins OB arc is a complete arc. He finally accepts that he can’t always be a hero. He accepts that everyone can’t be saved. These are huge steps for his character. 

Exactly. I agree.

6 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

An arc can be complete even if it ends in failure.  It may not be very popular, as evidence by the majority of media having happy endings and also this thread.  

As we recently saw with the Last Jedi, lol. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Nymeros

[Scion of the Mists]

1 minute ago, Nymeros said:

As we recently saw with the Last Jedi, lol. 

I see a lot of parallels between the reactions to Oathbringer and The Last Jedi.  I think that they went against people's expectations and that's why people had such strong reactions to them.  Just because the story doesn't go where you thought it was going to doesn't make it bad.  

[Calderis he/him]

42 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I see a lot of parallels between the reactions to Oathbringer and The Last Jedi.  I think that they went against people's expectations and that's why people had such strong reactions to them.  Just because the story doesn't go where you thought it was going to doesn't make it bad.  

This is my response to the majority of OB hate. Especially when it comes to anything Adolin. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Calderis

[wotbibliophile]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I see a lot of parallels between the reactions to Oathbringer and The Last Jedi. 

I don't connect these two. I really liked the Last Jedi. At first I thought OB was good but there were parts I didn't like. Now, after all this time I have decided I don't like OB. I have higher expectations for books than movies.

 

15 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

He accepts that everyone can’t be saved.

I disagree. I didn't think he had accepted this. His problem from start to finish was not letting anyone go.

[Ripheus23]

In Kaladin's defense , I think that if he has trouble letting go, it's because he doesn't see people as replaceable. Or, he doesn't think the vague motive of "trying to be happy" is grounds for emotionally replacing people when the loss of others is causing unhappiness, or whatever. He appreciates the uniqueness and individuality or whatever, of everyone, as an objective fact (after all). It's certainly idealistic but I daresay he wouldn't be the kind of Windrunner he is without it...

[wotbibliophile]

5 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

In Kaladin's defense , I think that if he has trouble letting go, it's because he doesn't see people as replaceable. Or, he doesn't think the vague motive of "trying to be happy" is grounds for emotionally replacing people when the loss of others is causing unhappiness, or whatever. He appreciates the uniqueness and individuality or whatever, of everyone, as an objective fact (after all). It's certainly idealistic but I daresay he wouldn't be the kind of Windrunner he is without it...

I gave you an upvote. I don't think Kaladin needs a defense. I think he's perfect. I expect him to say the 4th ideal, but if he never does I'll be 100% behind him. Like what was said upthread if the 4th oath is really contrary to his nature of protection then he may never say it.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

10 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I disagree. I didn't think he had accepted this. His problem from start to finish was not letting anyone go.

You might be right about his problem. Still, he gets past it. He lets Elhokar go. 

[wotbibliophile]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Still, he gets past it. He lets Elhokar go.

I would say Elhokar was only barely one of his people. Elhokar was really one of Dalinar's people and Dalinar is who Kaladin cared about. Kaladin definitely felt he failed Elhokar and he carried that with him. The scene where Adolin is all "Leave me. Go on without me." Kaladin is not willing to let Adolin go or his dead or his failures in order to say the 4th ideal.

[Farnsworth]

True, but he certainly felt responsible for Elhokar. He feels that he failed when he was killed. In a sense, he probably feels like letting Elhokar die was a failure in his duty of protecting and helping Dalinar. He certainly feels responsible to Dalinar.

In general I think that in large series like this, characters don't need to end their arcs until the end of the series. In this case, it should probably be resolved before the back five, but my point is that just because Kaladin didn't succeed much in OB doesn't mean that his eventual arc won't be a successful one.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

11 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I would say Elhokar was only barely one of his people. Elhokar was really one of Dalinar's people and Dalinar is who Kaladin cared about. Kaladin definitely felt he failed Elhokar and he carried that with him. The scene where Adolin is all "Leave me. Go on without me." Kaladin is not willing to let Adolin go or his dead or his failures in order to say the 4th ideal.

He lets go of Sah, his daughter, Noro, Beard and technically Skar and Drehy too, for a while. 

[wotbibliophile]

11 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

He lets go of Sah, his daughter, Noro, Beard and technically Skar and Drehy too, for a while. 

I don't agree. He sets up a goal for himself. "Save Dalinar." In order to keep moving. He is capable of doing things.

He hasn't let go of Tien, but he still saves the men in his first squad and later Bridge 4, but he goads himself with his failures. He does not let go. He was talking about letting go when Adolin was dying, but he wasn't able to. In my opinion, he is always caring his dead with him and his failures.

Tarah says to him that he needs to let his dead go and care for the living. (Sorry I don't know the exact wording, but this is the gist as far as I remember.)

[Angsos]

I think he'll eventual let everyone else dead go but Tien he can't and never will.

[minima]

I still think that Kaladin have to accept that people dies. And forgive himself. And understand that it isn't his fault. And that isn't easy - it takes time. It's not like you woke up some day and you think - oh I think I just let it go. I'm fine now. It's a process. It takes months, years, sometimes all life, sometimes it never happens. And forgiving is not forgeting - all dead people are still with you and you just have to live with them. And if Kaladin would just let it go it wouldn't be so realistic. Maybe he won't reach it, but inner ballance would help. All what have happened in Oathbringer is important for Kaladin.

[Winds Alight she/her]

I know thread necro'ing is frowned upon, but I hope my two cents are okay, as I don't want to open up another thread, as my current strain of thoughts somehow fits the topic. I think.

At first, I believe in light of the fact that Kaladin is a character who has had to deal with clinical depression almost his entire life, him personally/mentally being in a state that isn't worse than in the beginning of OB, before Kholinar happened, is a huge victory on its own.
He seems to be doing pretty okay at this point, which is something I'm very happy about, especially regarding the state he was in after Kholinar. I honestly didn't expect him to "come back" as quickly as he did.

The omain thing I am brooding over right now is the question of whether or not Kaladin is ever going to say the Fourth Ideal, as some people have voiced doubts over.
By the end of OB, I don't have the impression that Syl is worried about that, and while I do hope he will say the words, I completely fail to imagine Kaladin in Shardplate in my head.
He somehow is this swift flying type, and while Plate, especially when you're a full Radiant, doesn't have any negative impact on your ability to move freely, I wonder if Kaladin would actually like to wear Plate.

Dunno.
Anyone else having trouble with the image of Kaladin in full Plate?

[NoiseSpren he/him]

It would make him less bodyguard and more the-man-everybody-would-follow-anywhere. I think Kal has HUUUUGE charisma, even bigger than Gavilar. It would be shame not to see it grow and be used. Like second captain Carrot Ironfoundersson...

 

Sweet dreams...

[Gasper he/him]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:21 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I would argue that Kaladins OB arc is a complete arc. He finally accepts that he can’t always be a hero. He accepts that everyone can’t be saved. These are huge steps for his character. 

His arc is not complete. Sure, his OB arc was, but his overall arc from healer to warrior to ruler/leader is not complete. I think at minimum it will end in STA5 but not before then. I think he will struggle with the 4th Oath for a while. I think it has to do with his attachments and letting go of those so that he can lead on a bigger scale. I think that will take him a while, one or one and a half books at least. Also, I expect him to survive into the second half of the series.