[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

And now I've talked myself back full circle....Argh no wonder nobody else likes this thread.

LOLOL. My entire life is making arguments and destroying them and coming back to them and destroying them again until you’ve explored all possible contingencies. I find it so, so fun. And this is a superrrrr low stakes way of doing it. No one is pondering global climate change or bombing North Korea or Brexit or anything which actually impacts our lives. So it’s just pure argumentative fluff with a discrete set of primary sources we all have access to. (Well maybe besides those darn beta readers who know how their comments changed the final book )

[analyticaposteriori]

15 minutes ago, Rainier said:

How is Veil a subsidiary of Shallan when she, in her own thoughts, represses the idea of abandoning Veil, describes her as too vital to abandon, and then immediately says Shallan would be easier. It seems like it's obvious, and that's actually what made me read it again.

I just want to note since I remember I brought this quote up somewhere - these are Veil's thoughts so she may be a bit biased for herself.

edit: I still think it's very valid in the context of this conversation though.

Edited January 5, 2018 by analyticaposteriori

[Kogiopsis she/her]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

On the Veil thing (and why you probably get the sense people are saying Veil is equal), this is speculative, but there are some things in the book which point to Veil being the more “real” persona than “Shallan” - Brandon’s WoK epigraph about Shallan’s “flaring passion” being the real her, the back cover of WoK which describes Shallan as having “the heart of a theif”, the fact “the Veil” in WoK is where Shallan goes to research and find truth, Mraize telling Shallan that Veil is the real her (and I know I’m forgetting a few.) Dispositive evidence? Absolutely not. But enough to build a theory around which I haven’t seen anything to concretely discredit. And theorizing is what we’re supposed to do around here right? (But maybe not unless it’s the right kind of theory....  Sorry you gave your digs so I had to give mine )

PS: I loved the fanfic recs! I forget the name of the author, but there’s the long ongoing one with Kaladin and Renarin when they’re escaping to Althekar and I just need them to get together already....!

Wellllll first of all, I don't trust a word Mraize says.  He manipulates Shallan pretty expertly, and given that "the version of you that serves my purposes is the only Real You" is a pretty classic emotional abuse tactic, I'd set his comment well apart from any 'evidence'.

The back cover copy is also suspect, given that it's a subjective in-world text (written by, I believe the going theory is, the Dysian Aimians), and that in WoK Shallan's whole motivation was, in fact, stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster.  "A scholar's mantle over a thief's heart" is a fairly literal description of her in that book.

The Veil allusion is an interesting one, but not... particularly persuasive, given that Brandon's other work has consistently underscored the fallibility of written records; arguably, all of Rosharan human history is a 'veil', an obscuring story of righteousness laid on top of the true conquest and imperialism.

Not familiar with the epigraph you're referring to.  Link me?

I deeply dislike the idea that Veil is the 'real' Shallan, though, for a few reasons.  One is that Shallan has invented a completely different history for Veil, including life experiences related to classism that Shallan really never had - that being the part that directly leads to her breakdown in Kholinar.  Two is that Veil lacks a lot of the characteristics which are almost completely positive parts of Shallan's life - scholarship, interest in the natural world, and artistry.  With the exception of the drawings influenced by the Unmade, those three traits seem to be where she finds peace most naturally and easily.  Veil relaxes by... getting drunk?  (Which, okay, alcoholism could very well be a Shallan trait as well, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if genetic predisposition to addiction ran in her family.)

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Kogiopsis

Supportive, yes. But keep an eye on it. Blind support can, and most of the time will, result in enabling. If Adolin is so concerned about all of that, why does he become drinking buddies with Veil? Why does he allow Shallan to be someone different with him, when he told her, that he wants her? Yes, he acts concerned about Shallan's switching, but then doesn't care anymore?

Memory repression is the constant theme with Shallan. Her personalities are a direct result of repressing the murder of her mother and the decision she made in the end? I see it as her falling even deeper in the rabbit hole, yes she might not fracture in to further personalities, but she also didn't make any progress overcoming this repressive mechanisms. In a way, she further fortified them, because now she has confirmation through Adolin, which something she sought, that Shallan is completely different from Veil and Radiant, which in turn will also allow her to further hide from the fact, that she is a "monster" as she is calling herself. In the end, she again is just hiding.

And being honest? Please, Adolin barely knows anything about her. He doesn't know about the Ghostbloods and Shallan has no inclination of telling him, she'd rather have Veil do that. After all, Shallan actually doesn't have anything to do with the Ghostbloods, right? That is all Veil.

We know better, but that is what Shallan is convincing herself of. She is further fortifying the walls between her personalities. How Shallan killed her parents, nah, he doesn't know. Shallan is still just a prettied up version for him. He doesn't know anything about Shallan and I don't think, he will learn from her, because she herself doesn't want to go back that. She hates herself and all of that with Adolin? It was about maintaining the status quo. Of course, that makes her happy. She doesn't have to confront uncomfortable truths.

Regarding reintegration being necessary for Shallan to reach her full potential?

I'll just leave this here:

I mean, if I recall correctly, Adolin did walk in on Shallan after she'd passed out drunk on the floor at one point in Part 1.  Given that his father has a history of destructive alcoholism, I don't think it's unreasonable that he would want to be the 'designated driver', so to speak, for the woman he loves?

That said, he's not perfect at this!  It's a learning process, and as far as we've seen Roshar doesn't have therapists to help them along.  Heaven knows they could use 'em.

Just because Shallan hasn't told him all her secrets yet doesn't mean she won't.  The fact that she's considering telling him about the Ghostbloods is more than she's given any other character, including Jasnah, who she's known the longest.  Again, I do agree that Shallan and Adolin's relationship happens quickly, and I think they have a lot of ground left to cover.  I just feel like they have good odds of actually covering it, and it seems like you do not.

RE: the reintegration quote - the part of that scene that stuck with me the most was Lift's comment when she comes across Shallan later, that she's "hugging herself" when Shallan feels she's holding hands with her alters.  That almost sounded like they're vehicles through which she's learning to love herself.

9 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I want to bring this line back up because it's important to this part of the discussion.

How is Veil a subsidiary of Shallan when she, in her own thoughts, represses the idea of abandoning Veil, describes her as too vital to abandon, and then immediately says Shallan would be easier. It seems like it's obvious, and that's actually what made me read it again.

We know Shallan represses truths that hurt her. Therefore, if she's repressing something, it's probably a truth she doesn't want to face. Here, she represses the thought that she could abandon Veil, therefore she can absolutely abandon Veil. However she still thinks of Veil as more real and more vital, so I guess the interpretation depends on if you trust her in the moment.

Regardless, I don't think I agree with you interpretation of Veil as subsidiary, both due to the above and the WoK endpages written by Aimians that say she has the heart of a thief. If Veil is her heart, and Shallan is the mantle, which is subsidiary to which?

My buddy, my dude, Shallan hates herself, like... a lot.  She acts without much regard for her own survival - she got almost-killed how many times in this book?  At least twice in Kholinar alone? - and just picks herself up and carries on without really... dealing with it.  Honestly, if she didn't have her brothers to worry about in WoK, I kinda think she'd be suicidal.

Of course it would be easier to destroy Shallan.  She'd be free of her pain, her responsibilities, her mistakes.  Besides, Shallan believes she's a monster - and monsters deserve to be destroyed.

[Rainier]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I find it so, so fun. And this is a superrrrr low stakes way of doing it.

I knew I had heard this somewhere, so I found it. Sayre's Law:

Quote

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake.

 

2 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

these are Veil's thoughts so she may be a bit biased for herself.

Thanks for the reminder. This reinforces the idea that she's lying to herself whenever she represses something. In this case, the lie is that Veil is too vital to ditch. The truth, of course, is that Shallan absolutely can ditch Veil if she so chose.

2 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Of course it would be easier to destroy Shallan.  She'd be free of her pain, her responsibilities, her mistakes.  Besides, Shallan believes she's a monster - and monsters deserve to be destroyed.

Yeah, you're right. The truth/lies and repression are more important than whatever she's thinking at the moment. She's definitely self-loathing, and given that Veil is the one who was 'wearing' the body at the time, it's likely that Veil has much of Shallan's self-loathing.

Still, for the endgame I can't get away from Tyn's warning: 

Quote

"But here's the thing. The lies we tell, the dreams we create, they're not real. We can't let them be real. This might be the hardest lesson you have to learn." [Tyn] turned to Shallan, her expression having gone hard, all sense of relaxed playfulness gone. "When a good con woman dies, it's usually because she starts believing her own lies. She finds something good and wants it to continue. She keeps going, thinking she can juggle it. One day more, she tells herself. One day more, and then..."

So what's real? We've been working under the premise that Shallan is somewhat fake. She's a persona meant to attract and marry Adolin, just as Veil is for infiltrating/joining the Ghostbloods and Radiant is for fighting with a Shardblade and being a Radiant. The longer she keeps up all three, the worse for her it will be, and I can't shake the feeling that this is exactly what's going to happen to Shallan. I'm not sure exactly what will happen, but I expect her to try to maintain the three personae one day more, and then...

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I mean, if I recall correctly, Adolin did walk in on Shallan after she'd passed out drunk on the floor at one point in Part 1.  Given that his father has a history of destructive alcoholism, I don't think it's unreasonable that he would want to be the 'designated driver', so to speak, for the woman he loves?

The point is not, that he is drinking with Veil, he could play poker with her if he wanted to. It is that he is handling her as a different person from Shallan, probably also calling her Veil and not Shallan, further confirming what Shallan wants confirmed. That Shallan can still remain fractured.

18 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Just because Shallan hasn't told him all her secrets yet doesn't mean she won't.  The fact that she's considering telling him about the Ghostbloods is more than she's given any other character, including Jasnah, who she's known the longest.  Again, I do agree that Shallan and Adolin's relationship happens quickly, and I think they have a lot of ground left to cover.  I just feel like they have good odds of actually covering it, and it seems like you do not.

She isn't considering telling him about the Ghostbloods. She is saying, that Veil could do that anyway. She doesn't want to disclose those things to Adolin, even though she knows that she probably should.

Quote

She still needed to explain some things to Adolin. Most notably, the entire mess with the Ghostbloods. She’d done too good a job of ignoring that one lately, but it would be a relief to finally have someone she could talk to about it. Veil could explain—Adolin was growing accustomed to her, though he wouldn’t be intimate with her. He treated her like a drinking buddy, which was actually kind of working for both of them.

I read: Well, storms. I probably should tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods and that would probably be good for myself, but nah I'll just let Veil do that.

Of course, she doesn't want to muddy her reptutation with Adolin, when she has the choice.

18 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

the reintegration quote - the part of that scene that stuck with me the most was Lift's comment when she comes across Shallan later, that she's "hugging herself" when Shallan feels she's holding hands with her alters.  That almost sounded like they're vehicles through which she's learning to love herself.

For me it sounds like she's ready for the loony bin

The important thing is, that she is at her best, when they are working together. The fracturing is redundant. She just needs to accept, that she is capable of these things without having Veil and Radiant. In the end, we know that Shallan did all of that herself anyway. She has mental blocks though.

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC

[wotbibliophile]

13 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Shallan believes she's a monster - and monsters deserve to be destroyed.

I agree here and this is part of the reason that I hate that she just got married. I am surprised you think a monster would end up having a good marriage. Didn't we read about Dalinar and Evi. It did not end well.

 

12 minutes ago, Rainier said:

We've been working under the premise that Shallan is somewhat fake.

Another thing that I think OB lacked consistency in is that Shallan is just another mask. We start off with Shallan in WOK, we learn a little more and in WOR we learn Shallan thinks her cheerful scholarship self is a mask over her true self which is a sobbing mess. We learn why at the end of WOR. This stays consistent through the first part of OB. In OB Shallan says Veil and Shallan are equally false. Shallan says at least two more times that her real self is a sobbing mess. One time she specifically says that she masks who she is for Adolin. We get Wit insisting Shallan has always been the girl who stood up. Then Shallan marries Adolin without talking through any of her issues and this is presented as a good thing. This does not address the consistent problem that the real Shallan is a sobbing mess. Because it is presented as a good thing, it is inconsistent. See my previous post where I compare the end of OB to the end of WOR.

 

[Kogiopsis she/her]

5 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The point is not, that he is drinking with Veil, he could play poker with her if he wanted to. It is that he is handling her as a different person from Shallan, probably also calling her Veil and not Shallan, further confirming what Shallan wants confirmed. That Shallan can still remain fractured.

She isn't considering telling him about the Ghostbloods. She is saying, that Veil could do that anyway. She doesn't want to disclose those things to Adolin, even though she knows that she probably should.

I read: Well, storms. I probably should tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods and that would probably be good for myself, but nah I'll just let Veil do that. Of course, she doesn't want to muddy her reptutation with Adolin, when she has the choice.

Teeeeechnically, do we have reason to believe he addresses her as Veil?  What we know is that she, as Veil, interacts with him now, which wouldn't have happened before.  We know that Adolin recognizes the difference in Shallan's behavior when she switches... but I can't recall him ever calling her Veil in canon.

Also, he does still need to acknowledge the fact that she's switching, because weaning herself off of that coping method will take time.  It's probably not very comfortable for Adolin, either, since he's concerned for the effect this has on Shallan's mental health and watching your loved ones struggle is rough going.  For a lot of people, though, the best thing you can do is be there so they know they can always reach out to you, and that's what I see Adolin doing.

So, here's the thing:  Shallan-as-Veil telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods is still more than anyone has gotten from her on that front.  Even Kaladin, who interacted more with Veil than Adolin ever did, didn't get that.  And Shallan knows that Adolin sees her as one person; if Veil tells him she was working with the Ghostbloods, she's actually telling him that Shallan did.  Veil in that context is a means of communication, sort of like how some things are easier to say by email than over the phone.  (And again, the process of moving away from her alters is going to take time.  I wouldn't expect her to go cold-turkey here.)

Besides, she was the first person Adolin told about Sadeas.  If anyone would be able to hear her secrets without judgement, it's him.

Quote

She just needs to accept, that she is capable of these things without having Veil and Radiant. In the end, we know that Shallan did all of that herself anyway.

I think you and I are sort of on the same page here, actually; this is what I was trying to get at several posts ago.

3 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree here and this is part of the reason that I hate that she just got married. I am surprised you think a monster would end up having a good marriage. Didn't we read about Dalinar and Evi. It did not end well.

Another thing that I think OB lacked consistency in is that Shallan is just another mask. We start off with Shallan in WOK, we learn a little more and in WOR we learn Shallan thinks her cheerful scholarship self is a mask over her true self which is a sobbing mess. We learn why at the end of WOR. This stays consistent through the first part of OB. In OB Shallan says Veil and Shallan are equally false. Shallan says at least two more times that her real self is a sobbing mess. One time she specifically says that she masks who she is for Adolin. We get Wit insisting Shallan has always been the girl who stood up. Then Shallan marries Adolin without talking through any of her issues and this is presented as a good thing. This does not address the consistent problem that the real Shallan is a sobbing mess. Because it is presented as a good thing, it is inconsistent. See my previous post where I compare the end of OB to the end of WOR.

The thing is that Shallan isn't actually a monster.  She's a girl with PTSD and a whopping side of depression, but the murders she tears herself apart over were both self-defense or the defense of others.  Also, the very fact that she thinks killing two people makes her a monster is pretty blatantly different from young Dalinar, whose conscience managed to gasp a word or two once a year at most.

I'm gonna keep coming back to the idea that progression isn't going to be quick and it isn't necessarily going to be linear or simple.  Shallan would benefit a lot from talking out her issues, but I don't think that's a necessary prerequisite to marrying Adolin, in part because (as discussed yesterday) I think marrying Adolin represents a step forward in and of itself.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

My five cents, as a non-shipper and one who is mostly here to amaze at how this thread is as immortal as Hoid himself:

Shallan is the hardest character to discuss in SA. By far. She is extremely confusing, totally unreliable, and no one really knows what is real and what is fake when it comes to her personalities. On another note, I think this confusion is made worse by the fact that people are looking out for their different ships, be it Shalladin or Shadolin (Shadolin totally sounds like some badass shogun in a japaneese war epic) and thus reads her the way that fits their preferred romance the most. I think that in order to get who Shallan really is, we have to take a look at what consistently matters to her, across all personas. One of those things is the fact that she cares about others. She cares for her brothers, she cares for Adolin, for Kaladin, for random people she finds on the streets of Kholinar. She doesn´t even like the fact that Jasnah killed the thugs back in WoK. She is a generally kind-hearted person, and this seems to go through most of her personas. She also draws pictures of others to make them better people, and seems to generally enjoy helping others.

I want to write more on this, but it is late now and I gotta get up kind of early tomorrow, so I might return with another post on Shallans psychology later. Happy shipping (or psychoanalyzing) folks!

[Dreamstorm]

14 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Not familiar with the epigraph you're referring to.  Link me?

Annotation not epigraph, my bad! (Annotations are better actually, because epigraphs are subject to the same suspicion which anything in-world should be viewed as you point out. This is part of the reason I take WoB’s as the best primary source. I’m so sad we don’t have annotations for all of SA!) Quote and link below. 

Quote

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/

 

19 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Wellllll first of all, I don't trust a word Mraize says.  He manipulates Shallan pretty expertly, and given that "the version of you that serves my purposes is the only Real You" is a pretty classic emotional abuse tactic, I'd set his comment well apart from any 'evidence'.

The back cover copy is also suspect, given that it's a subjective in-world text (written by, I believe the going theory is, the Dysian Aimians), and that in WoK Shallan's whole motivation was, in fact, stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster.  "A scholar's mantle over a thief's heart" is a fairly literal description of her in that book.

The Veil allusion is an interesting one, but not... particularly persuasive, given that Brandon's other work has consistently underscored the fallibility of written records; arguably, all of Rosharan human history is a 'veil', an obscuring story of righteousness laid on top of the true conquest and imperialism.

You know who I trust even less than Marisa and the Aimians and in-world sources? Anything Shallan herself says or believes. (Storms she doesn’t even trust herself!) But your point is well made that unless we get a WoB on it (or the book makes it clear one way or the other, which I highly suspect it will as I imagine we’ll see a “whole” Shallan be the culmination of all of this struggle before the end of SA5), there’s reason to question any in-book source, with some being more suspect than others. Personally I think “Shallan” actually is the anchor personality, with Veil next, then Radiant. (Kind of 3+2+1 with 6 as whole Shallan.) “Shallan” is certainly the persona which has been dominant since the matricide; that’s the one we see in all the flashbacks trying to hard to be a good girl with her abusive father. But like with Bad Adolin, there is enough there I won’t be surprised to see it develop elsewise in future books. (Bad Adolin I have an emotional distaste for, but I still find it a possibility unfortunately.)

25 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

I deeply dislike the idea that Veil is the 'real' Shallan, though, for a few reasons.  One is that Shallan has invented a completely different history for Veil, including life experiences related to classism that Shallan really never had - that being the part that directly leads to her breakdown in Kholinar.  Two is that Veil lacks a lot of the characteristics which are almost completely positive parts of Shallan's life - scholarship, interest in the natural world, and artistry.  With the exception of the drawings influenced by the Unmade, those three traits seem to be where she finds peace most naturally and easily.  Veil relaxes by... getting drunk?  (Which, okay, alcoholism could very well be a Shallan trait as well, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if genetic predisposition to addiction ran in her family.)

As counterpoints points to this, I would say Shallan’s identification/fascination with darkeyes was something which was repressed by her father. (She’s told to stop drawing them as it was unseemly or something like that.) Her scholarship and drawing was something which was encouraged by Heleran as a coping mechanism after the matricide. (Can find you quotes on these if you want them.) While I hope the classism awareness doesn’t go away, even if Veil is closer to whole Shallan than is overtly implied in the books, this doesn’t mean “Shallan”’s traits will go away such that whole Shallan would lose her scholarship (ie I hope even if this is the case Veil wouldn’t subjugate “Shallan” the way “Shallan” is subjugating Veil.) It would be that whole Shallan would be less like the prim, Vorin girl and more like the bold infiltrator; the balance would be shifted in our integrated Shallan. Alcoholism, agreed, and I could see that becoming an issue in the next book (no matter how this lead persona thing falls.) I found Kaladin’s noting Shallan getting violet wine at the stormshelter a nudge that it was an ongoing issue. 

29 minutes ago, Rainier said:

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake.

Ha! Shalladin is lifeeeeeee. (Ok maybe I shouldn’t consider this a joke as some of my friends consider “my forum” to be a new friend of mine )

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Teeeeechnically, do we have reason to believe he addresses her as Veil?  What we know is that she, as Veil, interacts with him now, which wouldn't have happened before.  We know that Adolin recognizes the difference in Shallan's behavior when she switches... but I can't recall him ever calling her Veil in canon.

Also, he does still need to acknowledge the fact that she's switching, because weaning herself off of that coping method will take time.  It's probably not very comfortable for Adolin, either, since he's concerned for the effect this has on Shallan's mental health and watching your loved ones struggle is rough going.  For a lot of people, though, the best thing you can do is be there so they know they can always reach out to you, and that's what I see Adolin doing.

No, because we don't have a PoV from him about that, but he said, that he is worried about her becoming "different people" and he is, from Shallan's PoV, acting very differently around Veil. If he really thought, that Veil is Shallan, why would he do that?

19 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

So, here's the thing:  Shallan-as-Veil telling Adolin about the Ghostbloods is still more than anyone has gotten from her on that front.  Even Kaladin, who interacted more with Veil than Adolin ever did, didn't get that.  And Shallan knows that Adolin sees her as one person; if Veil tells him she was working with the Ghostbloods, she's actually telling him that Shallan did.  Veil in that context is a means of communication, sort of like how some things are easier to say by email than over the phone.  (And again, the process of moving away from her alters is going to take time.  I wouldn't expect her to go cold-turkey here.)

First of all, we don't know if she actually goes through with telling him about the Ghostbloods. And no, Shallan flatout told Kaladin as herself, that she killed her father, which I'd actually rate as a deeper secret for her.

Second of all, Kaladin didn't interact much with Veil. Quite the contrary, when ever Veil tried to seek out Kaladin, she panicked and forced Veil to not do that, because she knew Veil liked Kaladin.

Third of all, Adolin says, that he wants Shallan. He wants Shallan as he knows her, which is the one persona where he squeezed her hand. He is concerned, that she becomes "different people". I am fully confident, that he doesn't see Shallan, Veil and Radiant as one person. If Veil told him about the Ghostbloods, I wouldn't be surprised if he told Shallan the next day, "Did you know that Veil interacts with a secret society, called the Ghostbloods?"

19 minutes ago, Kogiopsis said:

Besides, she was the first person Adolin told about Sadeas.  If anyone would be able to hear her secrets without judgement, it's him.

I don't know what that has to do with that? Matricide and patricide are on a whole different page, than killing a generally disliked highprince. Especially for a family man like Adolin.

Edited January 6, 2018 by SLNC

[Greywatch she/her]

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't know what that has to do with that? Matricide and patricide are on a whole different page, than killing a generally disliked highprince. Especially for a family man like Adolin.

It doesn't need to be on a certain level of "bad" for it to matter a lot to Adolin, or for it to matter that it was a lot for him to admit that to her - the first person he said it to. Nowhere in Adolin's POV do we get the sense that killing parents would be an insurmountable thing, whereas he spends a lot of his POVs worrying a lot about killing Sadeas. It doesn't seem to be on a different page to Adolin, which is the point.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

It doesn't need to be on a certain level of "bad" for it to matter a lot to Adolin, or for it to matter that it was a lot for him to admit that to her - the first person he said it to. Nowhere in Adolin's POV do we get the sense that killing parents would be an insurmountable thing, whereas he spends a lot of his POVs worrying a lot about killing Sadeas. It doesn't seem to be on a different page to Adolin, which is the point.

I can't follow. You're deriving from the way he worried about how he had no regrets for killing Sadeas, that he wouldn't care that he married a matricide AND patricide? There certainly is a difference between killing in your family and killing an enemy highprince. Especially in such a violent society like the Alethi. If he already had a hard time coming to terms the latter, how could he, as a man valuing family over everything else, just forget if his wife did the former?

And they both had good reasons for doing what they did. He still felt wrong for doing what he did.

[Greywatch she/her]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I can't follow. You're deriving from the way he worried about how he had no regrets for killing Sadeas, that he wouldn't care that he married a matricide AND patricide? There certainly is a difference between killing in your family and killing an enemy highprince. Especially in such a violent society like the Alethi. If he already had a hard time coming to terms the latter, how could he, as a man valuing family over everything else, just forget if his wife did the former?

And they both had good reasons for doing what they did. He still felt wrong for doing what he did.

Adolin, from what we know of his character, trusts Shallan and would give her the benefit of the doubt. It would be more in-character for him, based on how the two of them acted when sharing something serious and important with each other, to ask for the story than to just say he would automatically react terribly from hearing "parent" at the other end of "murdered". 

[Ailvara]

Sorry if it's a bit off current topic, but I just watched a really nice video that hits many points we have already discussed and at least one that I don't think we have (it's all quite spot-on, so I recommend watching, triangle discussion starts at 10:00). 

(https://youtu.be/XxRJjXC8I8I) 

Anyway, the point I mean is that not only Adolin might be a bad influence for Shallan in some points, but she can be seen as a bad influence for him. She is the one to tell him that he made a good thing killing Sadeas. She is the one pushing him just a bit into not accepting the responsibility of becoming a king. Alethi will most probably be better with Jasnah as captain, but still... He wouldn't know at that time anyway. He just resigned without any alternative candidate in mind. All in all, from the perspective of his morality it doesn't look very well to me. 

Spoiler

All while Kaladin and Shallan challenge each other on their issues aah... 

Also, the suggestion that if she's looking for someone to help and stabilize her, she should marry Hoid made me lol hard. So true. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Ailvara

[Vissy]

32 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Adolin, from what we know of his character, trusts Shallan and would give her the benefit of the doubt. It would be more in-character for him, based on how the two of them acted when sharing something serious and important with each other, to ask for the story than to just say he would automatically react terribly from hearing "parent" at the other end of "murdered". 

So Adolin is just going to be Shallan's obedient slave? "Yes Shallan, nothing you ever did could ever bother me." "Yes Shallan, your word is my law."

It is terrible writing to just ignore consequences like this. Matricide and patricide, even when we know that she had no choice, are not things you take lightly. Any person of relative sanity will react with absolute horror to an admission like that. It is, at the very least, a problem that Adolin and Shallan have to work through.

[Greywatch she/her]

7 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Sorry if it's a bit off current topic, but I just watched a really nice video that hits many points we have already discussed and at least one that I don't think we have (it's all quite spot-on, so I recommend watching, triangle discussion starts at 10:00). 

(https://youtu.be/XxRJjXC8I8I) 

Anyway, the point I mean is that not only Adolin might be a bad influence for Shallan in some points, but she can be seen as a bad influence for him. She is the one to tell him that he made a good thing killing Sadeas. She is the one pushing him just a bit into not accepting the responsibility of becoming a king. Alethi will most probably be better with Jasnah as captain, but still... He wouldn't know at that time anyway. He just resigned without any alternative candidate in mind. All in all, from the perspective of his morality it doesn't look very well to me. 

  Reveal hidden contents

All while Kaladin and Shallan challenge each other on their issues aah... 

 

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing.

Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. 

In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things.

2 minutes ago, Vissy said:

So Adolin is just going to be Shallan's obedient slave? "Yes Shallan, nothing you ever did could ever bother me." "Yes Shallan, your word is my law."

It is terrible writing to just ignore consequences like this. Matricide and patricide, even when we know that she had no choice, are not things you take lightly. Any person of relative sanity will react with absolute horror to an admission like that. It is, at the very least, a problem that Adolin and Shallan have to work through.

Nowhere did I say slave, and nowhere in English does "give the benefit of the doubt to ask for more background" mean "obey without question". That's putting words in my mouth. 

[Vissy]

5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Nowhere did I say slave, and nowhere in English does "give the benefit of the doubt to ask for more background" mean "obey without question". That's putting words in my mouth. 

Maybe I worded what I meant to say too combatively. Still, what you seem to suggest is that you want Adolin to be written as a two-dimensional, uninteresting character who just sort of follows through with everything Shallan does and never challenges her on anything. That he'll just instinctively know that Shallan couldn't do anything bad, therefore whatever horrible deeds she admits to will not give him pause. I just don't think that this will happen, like at all. I think it's going to be a huge problem for Adolin, at least initially.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Vissy

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, Vissy said:

Maybe I worded what I meant to say too combatively. Still, what you seem to suggest is that you want Adolin to be written as a two-dimensional, uninteresting character who just sort of follows through with everything Shallan does and never challenges her on anything. That he'll just instinctively know that Shallan couldn't do anything bad, therefore whatever horrible deeds she admits to will not give him pause. I just don't think that this will happen, like at all. 

I didn't say "not give him pause" either. I would, however, like Adolin to be written with consistent character traits. In three books, Adolin has consistently shown the character traits of being patient, calm, doesn't lose his temper unless it's either of the Sadeas', and has great intuition about other people. The situation described where Adolin automatically loses it without even bothering to ask for details is wildly out of character for him.

[Vissy]

2 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I didn't say "not give him pause" either. I would, however, like Adolin to be written with consistent character traits. In three books, Adolin has consistently shown the character traits of being patient, calm, doesn't lose his temper unless it's either of the Sadeas', and has great intuition about other people. The situation described where Adolin automatically loses it without even bothering to ask for details is wildly out of character for him.

Yes, I agree. I still think that Adolin is human. Absolutely anyone would lose their rust at realizing that the person they love the most actually murdered their parents. I don't want him to turn into a 100% Mary Sue trope.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Vissy

[Greywatch she/her]

Just now, Vissy said:

Yes, I agree. I still think that Adolin is human. Absolutely anyone would lose their rust at realizing that the person they love the most actually murdered their parents. 

I do not think that happens 100% of the time, nor does it need to. Different readings of the character is all it is, but I happen to think all interpretations are not equal. Adolin "losing his rust" at Shallan would go against a lot of established characterization for him. There's a lot of room between completely chill and completely freaking out, and I think Adolin is farther away from freaking out than the other side.

[Ailvara]

20 minutes ago, Vissy said:

So Adolin is just going to be Shallan's obedient slave? "Yes Shallan, nothing you ever did could ever bother me." "Yes Shallan, your word is my law."

It is terrible writing to just ignore consequences like this. Matricide and patricide, even when we know that she had no choice, are not things you take lightly. Any person of relative sanity will react with absolute horror to an admission like that. It is, at the very least, a problem that Adolin and Shallan have to work through.

If she told him now, I think he might get over it. Right after he confessed his own murder, right when they share secrets naturally at the relative beginning of their relationship. To find out after a few months/years of marriage that your wife has been hiding so many skeletons in her closet and never bothered to mention it when there was time for that... Much harder. 

(and if he finds that she told Kaladin about her father but not him, I doubt he'll swallow that so easily)

18 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing.

Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. 

In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things.

We only see Dalinar's reaction apart from Shallan's and he's not mad, but not exactly thrilled either. Adolin has been thinking of it, but Shallan reassured him, which might admittedly be either good or bad, we'll see. 

Anyway, this quote from Adolin himself is what got me:

Quote

Duty isn't about what you enjoy. It's about doing what is demanded of you, in serving the greater good. You can't just abandon responsibility because you feel like it. 

So I know Azure made some good counter-points to that... But I liked and respected this Adolin much more. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Ailvara

[Greywatch she/her]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

We only see Dalinar's reaction apart from Shallan's and he's not mad, but not exactly thrilled either. Adolin has been thinking of it, but Shallan reassured him, which might admittedly be either good or bad, we'll see. 

In terms of Sadeas being murdered, many characters express outright approval - Palona, Hoid... A lot of people are happy and/or relieved he's gone. The sheer number of characters who express a positive reaction build the sense that the narrative does not disapprove of Sadeas being gone. Not to re-awaken the argument, but I don't think the consequences for Adolin killing Sadeas are over, but I think the external world around him is not going to be the punishment. The world around him took a look, said "oh, finally!", and happily moved right on. 

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

In terms of Sadeas being murdered, many characters express outright approval - Palona, Hoid... A lot of people are happy and/or relieved he's gone. The sheer number of characters who express a positive reaction build the sense that the narrative does not disapprove of Sadeas being gone. Not to re-awaken the argument, but I don't think the consequences for Adolin killing Sadeas are over, but I think the external world around him is not going to be the punishment. The world around him took a look, said "oh, finally!", and happily moved right on. 

Ah, I get you now. Well, I just think there's no contradiction between someone getting killed being right and someone murdering that person being wrong. It's like everyone is happy someone else took care of the dirty job and storm them... I agree external consequences might be over, but my point was related to the fact that Adolin has decayed morally and that's independent from external consequences. 

[Greywatch she/her]

2 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Ah, I get you now. Well, I just think there's no contradiction between someone getting killed being right and someone murdering that person being wrong. It's like everyone is happy someone else took care of the dirty job and storm them... I agree external consequences might be over, but my point was related to the fact that Adolin has decayed morally and that's independent from external consequences. 

In a world where Dalinar is the main hero of these books, I just don't find Adolin decaying morally, if we're using these terms, to be an indication that now he's lost and on a bad path forever. I also 100% believe Sadeas being gone is a great and wonderful thing, and also 100% that Adolin still has to deal with it. My favourite moment that tied together Adolin's arc for me at the end was when he realized that he'd himself been repressing emotional reactions for the last while, as he pushed himself to be strong for the mission, strong for Kaladin, etc etc and realized that he hadn't allowed himself to feel grief. His arc was putting others first and realizing it's okay not to be the star of his world anymore, but now he realized he hasn't emotionally dealt with anything in the course of all of it. In my mind, it's a great place for him to start SA4.

[wotbibliophile]

52 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing.

Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. 

In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things.

Dalinar is the only person to express regret that Sadeas was killed (this is when they find Sadeas's body). Dalinar expresses a not really realistic hope that he and Sadeas could have managed to work together to fight the desolation.

Then Odium uses Sadeas's men's anger at Sadeas's murder to turn them to his side. This is a terrible consequence for the Coalition. To say the text doesn't support Adolin's murder being a bad thing is not quite right.

 

I agree that Adolin never wanted to be king.