[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Alderant]

22 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

So just looking at this thread again in a while and I noticed two things... 1. It appears I missed some stuff but not too much and 2. that Dreamstorm and SLNC are getting a crap ton of rep from this thread, like memes kind of reps! 

Ugghhh.....the thread blew up in my absence again...

Beware the long post. I see that my comments are again applicable. But first, I want to outline the points I want to address:

On 1/31/2018 at 7:35 PM, SLNC said:

On 1/31/2018 at 7:33 PM, Starla said:

They saw him land and Adolin waved at him. They were in his line of sight, even though he was looking the other way when Adolin waved. Right after this it switched to Kaladin's POV where he was watching them kiss and told Syl "her choice is made." 

Thanks for clarifying.

Definitely a cremhole move then...

First off... Yes. On Shallan's part I think this was absolutely a cremhole move. I think Adolin got caught up in the moment. This was done to prove a point, though I think it was more to herself than to Adolin. More on this in a minute.

On 2/1/2018 at 7:29 AM, Isilel said:

Ah, no. Veil is a role, a mask that became more real than she should have been because of Shallan's magic. She is based on Shallan in some ways, but has been purposefully created to be different in others, to distinguish her from Shallan and to provide escape from her past. Some of Shallan's traits are exxaggerated almost to the point of caricature in Veil, while others are completely suppressed, even though they are integral to the full personality. Like Shallan's artistic talent - it is at the core of who Shallan is, how she sees the world and probably is what attracted Pattern to her in the first place and enlarged her soul enough to enable the bond before all the traumatic stuff happened. But  it was also her main means of coping with her past, so it had to be excised from Veil, as it became too connected with the family tragedy in Shallan's mind. And fluctuating artistic ability provides a compelling argument that Veil is more real than you'd like to admit and that she is, indeed, different from Shallan.  Oh, and Kaladin, of course, has no use for art. Hm...

...

'Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?' Ahem. IMHO, the conflict is more about Shallan's attempt to escape and erase her past and edit herself into a different person to accomplish it - not her _growing_ into a different person naturally, mind, which is normal and healthy. Jasnah just brought into light what was happening already - Shallan wanted to escape into Veil more and more. That's why she was skipping meetings and not paying attention when present. Nor did Shallan put her shortcomings into her personas - with the notable exception of her attraction to Kaladin. But that is also connected with her suppressing the truth of Helaran, so it makes a certain amount of sense. 

You are partially correct and incorrect on this point. @SLNC does a good job of making a reply to this, but I'd like to tackle it from another angle. Get to that in a minute.

On 2/1/2018 at 8:40 AM, Starla said:

It’s not clear in the text whether Shallan knows the extent of Kaladin’s feeling for her. Probably not. But right before this scene, she is having a conversation with herself about which man to choose. Radiant says, “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months.” She obviously considers Kaladin a viable option, to the point she is considering breaking it off with Adolin to pursue Kaladin. So either she knows Kaladin has feelings for her, or she is so confident in herself that she thinks she can win him over despite his aloofness.

This is another issue that feels disrespectful to Kaladin. I don’t ever see Shallan considering what he might think or feel. She objectifies him as something to be stared at ("I appreciate a nice picture when I see one.”), but never considers how any of her actions or decisions might affect him. At the very least, I would think their friendship would have developed far enough that she would wonder how he might feel about it all. But there is no sign in the text that she considers him at all, aside from what she will get out of it.

This stems from an issue within Shallan, and I think it has to do with her deliberate degradation of him throughout Oathbringer. This is part of point #1.

On 2/1/2018 at 11:09 AM, Dreamstorm said:

I would look at the difference between Shallan's reaction to Pattern being missing and Kaladin's over Syl.  Kaladin is frantic (immediately asking for Syl, pacing - we see this from Shallan's PoV) whereas Shallan is very nonchalant about Pattern not making it to the room, not mentioning him from when his hand slipped out of hers until he finds his way back to the room.  Kaladin's reaction makes sense given what he's been through; he's lost Syl once before and is desperate to not do so again.  Shallan's reaction...?  Who knows.  Maybe it's showing she's more rational about the fact spren don't need to breath (even if we don't hear her thought about this.)  Maybe it's showing she isn't as attached to her spren as Kaladin.  We can theorize about what it means, but the fact (i) Shallan clung to Adolin and lost hold of Pattern and (ii) Shallan has a vastly different reaction to losing hold of her spren than Kaladin, are things which did happened, so are open to interpretation as to their meaning.

Good points here. There's definitely something different about the way Shallan treats Pattern versus Kaladin & Syl. More in a minute.

17 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

The evidence for a frayed bond with Pattern is slim so far, but I still think it’s very likely to play out in the next book. Mainly because Shallan is lying to herself and believing her own lies which seems dangerous. A counter argument is that we don’t really know enough about how Lightweaver oaths work to be sure, but it seems a reasonable assumption that ignoring her Truths might have a similar effect to breaking an Oath. I suspect the evidence is thin for now because Brandon really didn’t want to start that plot line in OB, but set it up so it could escalate any time.

Finally! Someone else mentioned this! Point #4.

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Is it an integral part of her character development or more of a symptom of underlying problems? Shallan's conflict is rooted in the past and it won't be solved by her chosing one man over another, anymore than Dalinar's conflict was solved by marrying Navani. Like him, she'll have to confront and assimilate her past and her love interest(s) could only have a tangential role in this, providing  support in the best case, being a distraction in the worst. Her brothers, alive and dead are going to furnish impetus for the crisis, because they, and not any romantic entanglements were at the root of Shallan's trauma, they are the victims of her self-defense, they were the ones thoughts of whom she suppressed in order to function even before her fragmentation started in earnest.

Lots of speculation in this paragraph. Shallan's conflicts are not just rooted in the past, like Dalinar. A lot of Shallan's issues are current, but have context from the past to further amplify the issue. The severely underlying problem, however, is rooted in the past and is absolutely one which must be resolved for her character to grow. Point #5.

17 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I strongly agree with Dreamstorm here and I strongly believe Shallan is not ready to be married.

 

I also think Kaladin has never acted over-protective of Shallan. I think he has always expected her to handle herself. Maybe it's because at first she wasn't one of his people so he didn't care what happened to her. Later I think it is definitely because he knows she is a surgebinder.  

Edited again:

22 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

My question to you guys is if a divorce Happened do you think it would be mutual? and How would it affect Adolin? Shallan? And would/is Shallan's bond weakening with pattern because of this/other things Shallan isn't acknowledging?

I have been thinking if a divorce happened it would come from Adolin. I think Shallan is too dependent on Adolin to divorce him and we have seen him try to break up with her already. I really do not know what to expect. I want to see Shallan more honest, but I don't know what the impetus will be for her to do that. She is going to need a shove. I don't see her gradually overcoming her problem. I foresee disaster.

I got a lot to say on this topic. But I will try to make point #6 brief.

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

Of course it is an integral part of her character development - you know, an ongoing process. Her choice of partner isn't the solution, but Sanderson deliberately chose the "triangle" to reflect the development of her masks and how they develop different aspirations. And how Shallan herself was split.

Well put as always, my friend. This will be covered in points 1 & 2.

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

Come on, now! This quote:

"Kaladin had never had  much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless".  Chapter 102, "Celebrant".

is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant  and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods.

Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time.

Now. Here we go. Please bear in mind I do not have a physical copy of OB and am largely going off of my memory, so I may get some things wrong.

Point # 1 - Shallan's degrading of Kaladin as a person is an attempt to demonize him and glorify Adolin.

Shallan, as has been pointed out repeatedly, has a lot of mental issues going on here. From her appearance on the Shattered Plains in Words of Radiance, to the final marriage at the end of Oathbringer, Shallan and Kaladin have sparked like wildfire. There's ample textual evidence to support this--I'm not going to get into the debate on whether or not the potential was there. Suffice it to say, in the chasm scene in WoR, Shallan revealed more of her true self to Kaladin than she has done to anyone else in the SA, Hoid excluded, and Kaladin exposed himself to her as well. That kind of discourse creates a connection between people, and is largely the root for the "love triangle arc" that we see in OB. I'll admit wholeheartedly that I initially didn't like the way this was handled, but after some time and distance, I'm starting to see that this was actually very clever plot manipulation on Brandon's part.

Back to my point, Shallan opened herself up to Kaladin in a very intimate way, and that occurrence is actually what caused this backlash in OB. She recognized that there was something there within her for Kaladin, but she wants Adolin. I've said it before and I'll say it again here: Adolin represents everything that Shallan wants and should have had in life. He is the charismatic lighteyes, the kind of man that every light-eyed girl dreamed of marrying. And he's here. He's obtainable. Had her life gone normally, she might have been married off to a lighteyed man like him, gotten married, had children, and had a happy family. Taking that into account, she clings to Adolin with a surprising level of franticness, desperate to hold on to this one part of her life that is going the way that it should. Look at the dialogue--every time she thinks Adolin is about to leave, she panics. Some part of her, buried deeply to be sure, is aware that Kaladin is an equally suited match, but on a surface level (which is where she operates for most of OB), she believes that Adolin is the one for her.

Shallan (on the surface) doesn't want Adolin to leave. For any reason. So she retaliates at Kaladin. She demonizes him, scorns him, and even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one. You can also look at the dialogue--at the way she describes Kaladin when she is "Shallan"--she belittles him and almost caricaturizes him in her mind. Contrast that to Veil's reactions to Kaladin, which are much more reasonable and take into account more than just his brooding eyes, and that at the beginning of OB the vast majority of mentions of Kaladin's whereabouts and situation come from her POV. And that leads me to point # 2...

Point # 2 - What we see in Oathbringer are three personas, with very little of the real Shallan in textual evidence. We also see Veil become more and more like the true Shallan (the one we've read in WoK and OB), while "Shallan" becomes a caricature of "Shallan, the light-eyed girl".

First off, I would like to clarify that there is a difference between "persona" and "personality". A personality could be considered a separate entity, and would probably manifest as a different person in Shadesmar. A persona is an act, or a role, that a person assumes for a specific person, and would not manifest as a separate or distinct person in Shadesmar. Therefore, understand that when I say that "Shallan", Veil and Radiant are personas, I mean that they are all roles and acts.

Let's recap. At the end of WoR, Shallan is confronted with a Truth that she is not ready to face. Her downward spiral and mental degradation actually begins here, during her breakdown where she laments that she wants her family. Her foundation of mentally ignoring what happened in the past has been cracked and has begun to crumble beneath her feet. She has to shore that up somehow to keep from falling into the abyss that is the broken, frightful monster she fears she truly is. She does this in multiple ways, and we see the beginnings of this at the beginning of OB. I'm not going to go into extreme detail (this will be a big part of my Shallan analysis during the reread), but suffice it to say that Shallan is left raw at the end of WoR, and rather than facing her problems begins to funnel herself into her personas, slicing off pieces of herself (mentally) to augment each of their "personalities" with a bit of herself and make the transition easier.

While Veil was originally created for the purpose of infiltrating the Ghostbloods, in OB Veil took on a more realistic tone as Shallan used her to navigate Urithiru in secret. Shallan, by this point, was a very recognizable person, and in order to operate in stealth, she took the guise of Veil. However, when the killings by Re-Shephir began, she felt the need to go deeper into these personas--not because she needed more knowledge of infiltration (which Veil did not have, since she was still Shallan), but rather because as her personas she could ignore the pain of her previous Truth. Pattern also represents that pain, so she needed to create a persona to mentally sidestep that pain. The deeper she went, however, the more she sought to bury the true Shallan. She became "Shallan", a young woman who was easily distracted, who cared little for science (though that had always been the primary reason behind her art, as evidenced by her inner dialogue in WoR), who was "in love" with Adolin and thought Kaladin was "a pretty picture". You can actually see this transformation occur over the course of Oathbringer. Veil, then, her first persona, gradually began to take on more and more of the true Shallan, as "Shallan" perpetually siphoned off the parts of her that were not what she thought she wanted or needed to be.

This is why the collapse of Veil near the end of OB was such a drastic situation for Shallan--up until this point, she'd been using Veil more and more to be herself, as "Shallan" had to be someone else. And yet, because of her very proficient mental gymnastics, Veil was still a different identity so she didn't have to hurt, as Shallan did. Therefore, when Veil failed in Kholinar to save anyone (despite her best efforts), Shallan became lost. Veil had actually become the grounding persona, the one closest to Shallan herself, and now, suddenly Veil hurt. She couldn't be Veil anymore--to do so would be to face that pain. But she because of this she was lost. She didn't know who she was anymore, and she couldn't pick to ground herself because she'd been shying away from who she was for so long. Thus, when Adolin squeezed her hand and she stopped at "Shallan", she immediately jumped on it and said "He knows who I am!" Because, at that moment, she could not function without an outside source to tell her who she was.

As others have pointed out, we see that this is not truly the case at the end of OB. She has not suddenly grounded herself, but she has decided that she needs to be "Shallan," because "Adolin knows who I am, so that must be who I am." However, the true Shallan by this point has been siphoned off to Veil and Radiant. Veil's much more toned down at the end. Veil hurts too much, so we barely see Shallan dip back into Veil after that, but the evidence is there when even Radiant begins to side with Veil, and Shallan begins wearing Veil's clothing as herself instead of just as Veil.

Point # 3 - Shallan's relationship with Pattern is a dark reflection of Kaladin's relationship with Syl.

There's a key phrase at the end of WoR and beginning of OB that is largely ignored in the discussion with regards to Shallan and Pattern's relationship:

End of Words of Radiance: Shallan say she hates Pattern. Pattern replies with "I know..."

Beginning of Oathbringer: Pattern acknowledges that Shallan hates him, and Shallan doesn't refute that fact, though she replies with "I hate myself, too."

This is an underlying current with Shallan and Pattern, and it's a dark reflection of Kaladin and Syl. Kaladin needs Syl, Shallan needs Pattern. Kaladin, however, cherishes Syl and I think, truly views Syl as almost like his best, most closest friend. He shows several times in OB that he is concerned about his bond with Syl, and in Shadesmar, he has just suffered a psychological blow. I don't think their relationship is in question here--Kaladin loves Syl, Syl loves Kaladin, and it's not romantic in any way.

Shallan and Pattern, on the other hand, have a very different relationship. Pattern obviously wants the bond to progress, but I think Pattern truly wants Shallan to progress as well. I think he genuinely cares about Shallan's well being. He states several times that what she is doing with her mental gymnastics is dangerous and not right. Shallan, meanwhile, has a very deeply buried hatred for Pattern. She acknowledges that he is necessary as part of her Radiancy, but she hates what he represents, she hates what he has forced her to do. I would argue that without Pattern's intervention in WoR, Shallan's arc in OB would have been very, very different. When Shallan and Pattern separate in the sea of beads, I really do think this is symbolic as well as literal. Yes, Shallan in her academic mind would know that Pattern would be just fine in Shadesmar--it's his home, after all. But she doesn't show the care for Pattern that Kaladin shows for Syl. Yes, Adolin would have been in trouble without help, since he didn't have stormlight. That's a valid point.

I don't think the symbolism here is that Shallan is choosing Adolin over Pattern--I think the symbolism is that Shallan is choosing to be "Shallan", which (back to my above point) since Adolin represents everything she should have had, and "Shallan" is the persona of that part of her, she is choosing that over healing and coming to an understanding of who she is. Which brings me to...

Point # 4 - Lightweavers do not swear oaths beyond the first. They speak Truths as a means of becoming self-aware.

Quote

 

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 12, page 12

 

Shallan, therefore, in turning away from her problems is fraying the Nahel bond she shares with Pattern. She is not "breaking oaths" as Kaladin had done with Syl. However, she is, in fact, regressing from her Truths. She is turning away from becoming self aware, instead turning to other people to determine what or who she must be. This is the exact opposite of the process of declaring her Truths, and therefore it is not a stretch to imagine that the bond is suffering because of it. Kaladin was on the path to breaking his oath to Syl to "protect those who cannot protect themselves," of which his duty to Elhokar was an extension. He did not break the oath, therefore he did not break the bond. However, his decisions during that period of time were a step in the opposite direction of his oaths, so the bond was strained. This is a direct parallel to Shallan's relationship with Pattern in OB.

Point # 5 - The Root of all Shallan's problems lie with Lin, but most of her problems are due to her continued habit of running away from her problems.

I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lin covering up her mother's death. While I understand the necessity at the time, the entire family encouraged Shallan that it was okay not to think of the death, and this was further encouraged by the family's reticence to talk about it. The point was made that if Shallan can come to grips with her past that everything will be okay--I hope my discourse here has shown that that's not the case. Her problems are in her mental schema--in her methods of excising from her mind the things she doesn't want to think about.

Point # 6A - Shallan jumped into marriage because of the emotion at the time, and because Adolin wanted to step back.

I know some here will disagree with this statement, and that's okay. But I agree with @Dreamstorm and @wotbibliophile. I don't think the decision to marry Adolin was one of carefully thought out and weighed options. Marriage is a commitment, and it's something that should not be just jumped into, but that's exactly what Shallan did. As I mentioned before, Shallan clings to Adolin desperately, and every time she thinks he is going to step back for some reason, she pounces on the opportunity to reinforce that that's not the case. This is born of insecurity on her part.

Point #6B - "Shallan is too dependent on Adolin" and why a divorce will likely not occur.

As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Right now, Shallan's arc with Adolin and Kaladin is at a pseudo-resting place. I think both Shallan and Kaladin have things they have to work through before there can be a possibility that they will have a meaningful relationship. Kaladin was not at a place in OB to pursue one, and Shallan really wasn't either.

For that matter, when we analyze things like plots, we have to look at what a plot stands to gain or lose by a specific occurrence. Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together."

In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot.

Now, I know the argument floats out there that it's a terrible thing for main characters to get together because all we read is relationship drama, yada yada. Think of the relationships throughout his various series, however. The best example is Vin and Elend. Both are viewpoint characters. Both are in love with each other and marry each other, but their relationship never gets in the way of the plot. That's not how Brandon writes, so I doubt divorce is really on the table.

Therefore, if Brandon is setting us up with a love triangle and not resolving it in a seemingly satisfactory, it stands to reason that it is going to affect the plot. He doesn't just put that stuff in there for drama, but because these things are crucial to the way he wants these characters to develop. This is why I have stated before that we stand to gain more, plotwise, from Adolin's untimely removal from the scene (via death, dark Adolin, etc), rather than a divorce. A good example of what I am talking about is Sazed and Tindwyl. Sazed and Tindwyl were only a romantic item for a brief period of time--however, her death devastated Sazed and catapulted him into his entire arc for HoA. I believe that Brandon has set Adolin up for a similar fall--personally, I'd rather see him die than go dark. I'd love for Adolin to be the shining guy he is right up to the end. And that death would exponentially serve the plot better than his continued existence. It would impact Kaladin, sure, but Shallan and Dalinar would have severe blowbacks, from this, I think.

To head off the more erroneous arguments

"But Dalinar didn't react to--"

Spoiler

Just stop. I'm tired of seeing this argument. We never got to see Dalinar break down because of Elhokar, but I doubt he would have. Perhaps if he had been there, it would have made a bigger deal, but Elhokar's death was distant, and during a time that was not only high-strung, but at a place where the entire party could have died. We saw him worry over Elhokar and Adolin's fates, but everyone in Urithiru suspected that the venture to Kholinar could have been a suicide mission. Elhokar died during the mission. He became a casualty of war, and Dalinar would have understood that. He would have taken his time to mourn privately, but it wasn't as emotionally devastating as some would like it to be, and didn't need to be a plot point.

"But we never saw Navani mourn--"

Spoiler

We did. She broke down in WoR when Shallan broke the news and had to excuse herself from the conversation. We never saw Navani and Jasnah's reunion, but I doubt it would have been the "crying on Jasnah's shoulders" type that everyone seemed to expect. Jasnah wouldn't have reacted like that and Navani had already decided she wouldn't accept Jasnah's death without a body, so Jasnah appearing out of nowhere was really more confirmation than reunion. Additionally, we've had more than enough evidence that Navani is a stoic character.

"But the Maya revival arc--"

Spoiler

I've debated this already in the "Adolin Breaking" thread, but Adolin is not an important enough character for such a significant arc to occur, if it would occur at all. Not to mention that reviving a dead spren is supposed to be exceptionally difficult if not impossible to do.

"But I'd rather Shallan leave and be happy than try to stay in an unhappy marriage--"

Spoiler

 

Okay. First off, to those who argue that divorce probably has a place in Alethi society, I would refer you to Navani. There is evidence that she was rather unhappy in her marriage with Gavilar, and the Stormfather's comments during the marriage ceremony implies that she was unfaithful to Gavilar, presumably for the reason of her unhappiness. If divorce were an acceptable option, why would she stay? Also, there's some strong implication in Oathbringer that Jasnah was abused by Gavilar (I'm not saying sexually, get your mind out of the gutter).

Second, Alethi society is based somewhat off of traditional medieval noble culture. In medieval times, divorce was not an option. The church was a very big part of noble culture, and influenced nearly every aspect (much like the Vorin church in Alethi society). This is why many noblemen in medieval society kept mistresses, and noblewomen had their daliances--because for some reason or another the relationship soured on one or another's part, and they were forced to stay together by law of the church. Note that despite Evi's death being prior to Gavilar's murder, Navani didn't pursue Dalinar until 5 years after Gavilar's death, when it could have been reasonable for her to remarry. That implies that the Vorin church also held some stricture on the continuity of marriage (though by Vorin tradition Navani was considered Dalinar's sister, despite the fact that she was now a widow). I don't think it's as cut and dry as people would like it to believe.

Now, don't get me wrong. I want her to be happy too. But I don't think divorce is such a cureall solution.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Alderant

[MonsterMetroid]

First post on a new page and the amount of scrolling needed is already staggering! 

I haven't had a chance to read all your post as I must get back to work (and I don't have a 2 hour lunch ) .

I did really like this part though

8 minutes ago, Alderant said:

On 2/1/2018 at 6:40 AM, Starla said:

It’s not clear in the text whether Shallan knows the extent of Kaladin’s feeling for her. Probably not. But right before this scene, she is having a conversation with herself about which man to choose. Radiant says, “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months.” She obviously considers Kaladin a viable option, to the point she is considering breaking it off with Adolin to pursue Kaladin. So either she knows Kaladin has feelings for her, or she is so confident in herself that she thinks she can win him over despite his aloofness.

This is another issue that feels disrespectful to Kaladin. I don’t ever see Shallan considering what he might think or feel. She objectifies him as something to be stared at ("I appreciate a nice picture when I see one.”), but never considers how any of her actions or decisions might affect him. At the very least, I would think their friendship would have developed far enough that she would wonder how he might feel about it all. But there is no sign in the text that she considers him at all, aside from what she will get out of it.

This stems from an issue within Shallan, and I think it has to do with her deliberate degradation of him throughout Oathbringer. This is part of point #1

It seems to me that shallan ever since the Helaran debacle only tries to view Kaladin shallowly(sp?) I think this is because she is afraid it will unbury the truth that Kaladin murdered (In shallans heart) / killed Helaran. So if she just doesn't think about Kaladin deeper (like some of the reasons she liked him in WoR is that he was clever)  then she doesn't have to worry about thinking about Helaran. I do think that part of her attraction to Kaladin is buried with that memory as a result and it just leaks out as only physical attraction I guess....

Man I wish I could form my thoughts into sentences as well as you guys can.

[Alderant]

9 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

First post on a new page and the amount of scrolling needed is already staggering! 

Sorry about that, haha. I’m kind of known for being longwinded. 

 

10 minutes ago, MonsterMetroid said:

It seems to me that shallan ever since the Helaran debacle only tries to view Kaladin shallowly(sp?) I think this is because she is afraid it will unbury the truth that Kaladin murdered (In shallans heart) / killed Helaran. So if she just doesn't think about Kaladin deeper (like some of the reasons she liked him in WoR is that he was clever)  then she doesn't have to worry about thinking about Helaran. I do think that part of her attraction to Kaladin is buried with that memory as a result and it just leaks out as only physical attraction I guess....

Man I wish I could form my thoughts into sentences as well as you guys can.

Good points. I think you’re onto something. 

[Info_Drone-0451]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

I will make this brief, since this will be part of the coming analysis, but Shallan's habits of running from her problems began with Lyn covering up her mother's death.

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Edited February 2, 2018 by DimChatz

[Alderant]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

You're referring to Shallan's father here right? It's Lin Davar. Lyn is the girl in OB. Just a quick correction. Awesome post, though.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lin_Davar

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lyn

Thank you for the clarification. I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Edit: Corrected original post with the correct spelling.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Alderant

[Guest]

@Alderant

Thank you. That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far. A few points though.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

As I've hopefully explained here, it's not that Shallan is dependent on Adolin, per se, but rather that he is and represents what she thinks she wants. Unless she comes to some startling self-awareness between books 3 & 4, I seriously doubt Shallan intentionally divorce Adolin because of a change of heart. As of the end of OB, she is largely still unaware of who she is. She thinks she is "Shallan" because Adolin says so, but I think the arrival of her brothers is going to point out that she's not being honest. Her brothers will likely recognize she is missing her love of natural science. They will probably remark on the changes in her personality. This will happen over time, but in large part she wants to be with Adolin. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably not divorce Shallan. He's tired of courting, and Shallan is pretty much the girl of his dreams. He's finally got her hand in marriage. Yes, he might step back if Shallan told him that she loves Kaladin, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Divorce is a big deal, and I think one of the reasons it's so touted is because we all like Adolin. Divorce is the easiest way for us to possibly have a Shalladin relationship without getting rid of Adolin entirely. "Adolin and Shallan get divorced, and then we still get to enjoy Adolin while Shallan and Kaladin get together."

Well, if I'm personally honest, I'm more on the side of: I don't dislike Adolin, but I'm surely not attached to him. I do agree with you though, that divorce is mainly tauted as the main option because of that. Many really like Adolin, though I personally don't understand why, because as a literary character he kinda falls flat IMHO.

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

In terms of plot, however, what do we stand to gain from this, other than the pleasure of all three characters staying alive? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It creates unnecessary relationship drama (that dreaded "love triangle" thing we all hate), but other than that, it doesn't serve the plot. Adolin is not a main character, so most of the angst from that will come from Shallan, which we don't want to read. In fact, isn't that the exact thing that most of us are against? Plus, Brandon doesn't really do relationship drama like we would see in a more romance-centric plot.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected  , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

On 4.12.2017 at 10:11 PM, DeployParachute said:

See, this was part of my problem with realizing that Adolin was going to have little to no character arc or narrative during OB. Let's break down where this character stands now after the flop that I believe the handling of his narrative has been.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. 

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So, if Adolin does not have any more personal character arcs or growth to achieve (and no, sorry, I do not see "figure out how to revive my dead shardblade" as very important to the greater narrative), what purpose is he going to serve within the future books. Glad you asked ( though I know you didn't):

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

Looking at all of these things from a plotting or narrative perspective, I think readers who hope for a happy ending path forward for this character should be very worried about his future. He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains. Either Brandon doesn't see what problems exist for this characters narrative, or his plan for Adolin doesn't necessitate the kind of growth and challenges that other viewpoint characters have to experience, because his service to the plot is more...tragic.

This is part of the reason I was a little distraught over his end state at OB, because without something for him to actively do (especially with regards to himself), it certainly seems a good probability that his days are numbered.

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

[Alderant]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That was a lot to read, but it was worth it. Some of the most in depth and - most importantly - coherent analysis and argumentation regarding Shallan in OB, that I have read so far.

Thanks! A lot of thought has been going into this. When I finally get to that in-depth character analysis, though, I'll probably just post that I'm doing it and link an external document, haha.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You have explained that. Masterfully and convincingly so, in fact. But, at least, when I talk about dependence, I talk about her dependence of him to not drop the "Shallan" persona/mask. Adolin is basically the only reason, that she is even keeping "Shallan" around. Like you already said, Veil is much closer to the true Shallan, that we've been reading before.

I can get behind that definition.

9 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Additionally to that, Adolin (or his equivalent) died in The Way of Kings Prime, it is not much of an indicator, but from what I've been gathering his role in that book was similar to his current role in Stormlight - so I wouldn't be too surprised if he soon has outlived his... usefulness. I've always seen Adolin more as a tool employed by the author, which is probably also why he lacked a lot of deeper characterization. He was not worth it to be really fleshed out, because he was always planned to die.

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Discussing the possibility of Adolin's death kind of seems to have become a bit of a taboo as there are so many fans of him, that are latching onto him, but it is a real possibility.

I know, that you've been joining us later than I expected  , but I'd like to refer to an older post by @DeployParachute , where he outlined why Adolin is in a situation, where he has is ripe to be plucked from the story as an impactful tragic story device.

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...Anyway, I really do like to consider where the plot is going. Drafting an epic fantasy plot really makes you look at how other authors have crafted their stories and what is important versus what is not... I mean, I doubt my story will ever go anywhere important (it's something creatively cathartic for me), but it's given me a new, objective insight into these characters and why they're portrayed a certain way within the roles they're meant to fill. And I really do feel that Adolin's death is an important idea to consider, especially given that his death will affect several main characters...Of course, I also theorize that the Stormlight Archive is going to end in disaster to set up the final arc in the Cosmere as a whole, so take that as you will.

And thanks for the DeployParachute quote. I think I might have glanced at his post, but it's thorough and goes pretty well with what's been in my head.

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

Come on, now! This quote:

"Kaladin had never had  much time for art. Either the picture depicted something useful - like a map - or it was basically pointless".  Chapter 102, "Celebrant".

is from Kaladin's own PoV! It is when he is visiting the spren art merchant  and when he also sees the picture from the court of Gods.

Aaand yes, you're right that this is from Kal's POV, but taking this one line in Oathbringer to prove your point ignores both the context that follows (as SLNC pointed out) and the fact that, while Kaladin himself never had time for art (he was a soldier, always consumed with caring for him men), I think there is ample evidence in WoR and Oathbringer that he appreciates it. This is not a focus for this post, so I won't say more. I will be doing a reread of the entire SA soon, so I will look for evidence to support my statement at that time.

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Dreamstorm
typos

[Info_Drone-0451]

28 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Thank you for the clarification. 

No problem!

30 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I've never actually read the hard copies, haha, but you are correct. I was referring to Lin Davar.

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

13 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I don't mind taboo. It's a great planet. No, wait, that's Naboo...

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

[Alderant]

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

@Dreamstorm Excellent points! I missed that similarity entirely! That is a well earned cookie, especially the analysis at the end.

Edit: And I realized I didn't say this, but thank you. I put a lot of thought into my posts.

Spoiler

 

15 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

No problem!

Neither have I... Or, wait... Are e-books considered hard copies? Nah, I'm kidding. Also here'another fun one. Shallan's con-woman teacher in WoR is spelled Tyn and not Tin... Man Shallan knows many people with similar names... Can we expect a character named Tin?

And here I thought you'd be partial to Alderaan...

Hahaha! You get a cookie too! That one made me laugh!

Spoiler

Edit: And for the record, yes, I'm considering an e-book a hard copy. I have only ever read these books on audio--excepting the novellas (which I've both read and listened to) and White Sand comics, of course.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Alderant

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Alderant said:

...I've never actually read Prime, but if that's true than my points about Adolin not being important to the author are even more valid, haha. Thanks for bringing that to my attention!

In the same vein... I also read, that Adolin's role in Stormlight evolved way differently than in the first draft of TWoK in 2002, so I'd still take that as an indicator with a grain of salt. Still, I find it very odd, that a PoV character with multiple chapters in each of the three books released hasn't yet been given a good and deep characterization. It really seems like it isn't worth the page time, because he won't be around that much longer.

[Blazenella]

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Maybe you should... Read And Find Out?  

[Alderant]

Just now, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because people still like talking about it?

At least we're trying to keep it to one thread, and redirecting people here when they bring it up elsewhere, instead of blowing up every other thread with this topic. Also, this isn't just a discussion about the love triangle. This is a Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin discussion. We talk about all three characters in alternating patterns, though Shallan specifically is a large part of the discussion.

No one's forcing you to read it though, so if you don't want to read it, don't. Comments like this, when people are clearly still discussing and enjoying themselves, and when we're actually trying to keep it contained, are kind of ascerbic and abrasive. Put your discontent in the "What do you think has been discussed to death" thread.

That said, if you have an actual thought about the discussion, I'm all ears!

[Ailvara]

21 minutes ago, Blazenella said:

Why is this thread still a thing at 2,210 replies, 89 pages, and too many views to count...

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Alderant what an awesome post!  I don't have time to react to all of it (or all of @Isilel's either, but I will try to get to it this weekend!), but I wanted to respond to this point about Kaladin and art in particular, because I hadn't really looked into this before.

First, to delve further into Shallan's interest in art, it is notable that even though she considered art, Shallan's Calling is natural history because she loves the study of it.  This is something we learn about Shallan very early on ("The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching.  But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation.... So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoK Ch 3) and follows throughout the books, especially through her sketchbook pages where we see the nature is scholarly study.  Early on in OB, Shallan mentions she has moved away from this scholarly drawing ("Shallan had once been more analytical in her drawing, including notes and explanations with the sketches.  Lately she'd only been doing pages and pages of twisted images.  Well, she'd been trained as a scholar, hadn't she?  She shouldn't just draw; she should analyse, extrapolate, speculate." OB Ch. 33) and her sketchbook pages (Urithiru, spren in Kholinar, mandras) and scenes we see after this point indicate she redirects her focus back on scholarly drawing.

Second, I wanted to take a look at Adolin's interest in art.  We have artwork in the book showing the fashion folios he looks at, and both Kaladin ("He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin's chair.  The sketches in Adolin's book were of men in fine clothing.  The drawings were quite good, their faces done in as much detail as their garments.  "Fashion?" Kaladin asked." WoR Ch. 22) and Shallan ("Adolin browsed a folio, oversized by design so it wouldn't be mistaken for a woman's book... She was amused when she caught sight of the glyphs for this one, with women's script underneath for further clarification.  Fashions out of Liafor and Azir." WoR, Ch. 49) note this. Adolin also notes there is little to do in the warcamps without art shows and sculpture consents (WoR, Ch. 55), so one can ascertain he likes such things.  He shows interest in Shallan's drawings in Kholinar, though caring more for the portraits than the scholarly drawings ("He started through the more recent pictures, and though he noted the ones of strange spren, he idled most on the sketches of the refugees she'd done for her collection." OB Ch. 77).

Third, Kaladin is shown using artwork as a means to study ("Kal looked down at his folio.  It contained drawings of dissected bodies, the muscles splayed and pulled out.  The drawings were so detailed.  Each had glyphpairs to designate every part, and he'd committed those to memory.  Now he studied the procedures, delving into the bodies of men long dead." WoK, Ch. 31).  In the present, Kaladin also shows interest in Shallan's sketchbook, focusing on her mandra drawings ("'May I? Kaladin asked, nodding towards Shallan's sketch.  She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts.  As always, they were excellent." OB Ch. 99) and sparking a conversation on the nature of mandras.  Kaladin also seems interested in Shallan's spren drawings in Kholinar ("The men nodded as they saw her drawings, though only Kaladin seemed to catch what she'd been doing.  He looked from the drawing of the shamespren to her hand, then raised an eyebrow at her." OB Ch. 62), though this also points towards him noticing her research methods as much as caring about the drawings.

I may have missed passages on all three points (these were things I remembered and tracked down the quotes), but what can we get from this?  Shallan likes both art and natural history/scholarly drawings.  She chooses natural history as her calling because it attracts her more.  Adolin likes art, but doesn't seem interested in the scholarly drawings.  Kaladin doesn't have time for art, but utilizes it as a means of study and shows interest in scholarly drawings.  So.... I guess Kaladin actually has more in common with Shallan when it comes to art, since Shallan prefers the type of drawings Kaladin likes more than the type of drawings Adolin likes.

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

[Alderant]

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Because we still happen to come upon new stuff, that's why! 

You guys have already explained everything beautifully, I just have one more little gem to point to (sorry if someone mentioned it, I might have missed sth).

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, Alderant said:

Are you referring to Amaram? Shallan? Backpack from Dora the Explorer? I'm curious where you're going with this, but I'm clearly not making the leap you just made.

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

[Alderant]

Just now, Ailvara said:

Ahh sorry. I'm talking about Shallan's cool stormlight maps. Might be nothing. Might be something. 

No, actually I think you're right. One of the main things Kaladin has actually seen Shallan draw is the map of the Shattered Plains, when they were trapped down in the chasm. Until that point, he'd never really had a use for maps, but now he thinks they're valuable. I think that's probably a subliminal connection on Kaladin's part. Though I imagine Kaladin's reaction to those maps would probably be similar to Dalinar's.

[wotbibliophile]

Thanks @Dreamstorm for getting the exact quote on Adolin being a sunrise. I read that when @maxal brought up the Adolin asks Shallan who she becomes quote. I knew some people would dismiss it as just Veil preferring rain so I wanted to make it clear that it has already been established that Shallan really really likes rain. Actually, Shallan's reaction to the highstorm is exactly like her reaction to seeing Kaladin. She dismisses Adolin; she forgets about Adolin when something more interesting is in front of her.

Sorry, I am bad at quoting. Remember that part when Veil starts saying Adolin is boring and she prefers Kaladin? What stuck out to me was that Shallan was uncomfortable. In my experience, people are uncomfortable when there is some truth to what they hear. Maybe Shallan doesn't 100% agree with Veil, but some part of Shallan thinks there is some truth to what Veil said and so she is uncomfortable. Shallan isn't indignant or angry or disbelieving. Shallan doesn't jump to Adolin's defense. I think she is uncomfortable because she agrees (a little bit) with Veil and she wishes she didn't.

@Alderant Great post. Your point about Shallan reacting to telling Kaladin the truth is one I haven't seen before. Not sure I agree, but a great possibility. Shallan is so inconsistent that I have no idea where her motivation comes from.

5 hours ago, Alderant said:

even paints a picture of a really ugly man over him with lightweaving to further contrast that Adolin is the desirable one.

Shallan's reason for doing this is spectacular. She tells Kaladin he is too memorable. She is gushing. Kaladin has this mask for such a brief time. It is almost like it was just an opportunity for Shallan to say Kaladin stands out. Other possibilities are that it was just a joke or to establish that Kaladin does not like to lie and won't wear a mask which sets up for when he somehow breaks Shallan's illusion covering his scars.

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

When Kaladin says he only had time for utilitarian pictures, he doesn't mention his surgery folios - which must had taken a lot of his life. He specifically mentions maps for some reason, even though we never saw him using them that much. But then there's that another character that I immediately think of when someone mentions maps in the context of OB. Now I wish we saw Kaladin's reaction to one of these ahh.

This is great. Kaladin really hasn't had opportunities to use maps. I think it does point to Kaladin thinking of Shallan. It could be the map she drew in the chasms that saved their lives and the special map she is able to lightweave in Urithiru.

ETA:

10 hours ago, Isilel said:

"all other women are jealous of the heroine, so she can only be friends with men".

 

That is an unfortunate one. Another one is the woman has extremely low self esteem and the only way for her to think better of herself is to be in a relationship with a man. I feel like that is where Shallan is. It is yucky.

I agree that romance is not Sanderson's strength. I was thinking about that video of Sanderson talking about romance. He says he intentionally wrote WOK with an immature romance (Shallan/Kabsal) contrasted with a mature one (Dalinar/Navani). I didn't find either relationship to be romantic. Shallan/Kabsal appeared very one sided. Kabsal was interested in Shallan, but Shallan could take him or leave him. A bit of flirting doesn't count as a romance for me.

I didn't like Dalinar/Navani because Navani comes on super strong and Dalinar flat out tells her to back off and she doesn't. She doesn't respect his choice and I think that is really wrong. If it had been a man coming on that strong and a woman blatantly told him to back off and he didn't, it would have been even worse. At least Dalinar wasn't physically threatened by Navani.

Edited February 2, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Arash.F]

Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

Spoiler

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Edited February 3, 2018 by Arash.F

[Info_Drone-0451]

3 hours ago, Arash.F said:

Is there anyone who have actually read all these 89 pages of comments?!

By the way, though Kal is my favorite,

  Reveal hidden contents

he easily handled Shallan marrying Adolin;

and also I don't really like to see Adolin suffering a romantic tragedy :'(

Yes some of us have been here from Day 1. Welcome.

Here's a summary of the thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

And here are @DeployParachute's post about Kaladin dealing with it

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by DimChatz

[Arash.F]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Yes some of us have been here from Day 1.

Here's a summery of the thread

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit

And here are @DeployParachute's post about Kaladin dealing with it

 

Oh! thanks for the links! I really appreciate it

[Info_Drone-0451]

12 minutes ago, Arash.F said:

Oh! thanks for the links! I really appreciate it

No problem!

 

[wotbibliophile]

I reread the summary.

Page 5: In favor of the argument that the personas/masks would work against reintegration to keep their independence. There is the line by Veil that it would be easier to get rid of Shallan. I think this shows how little Veil values Shallan and shows how she wants to keep her distance from Shallan.

 

Page 6:

Quote

"You worry you're going to screw it up?", feeling a warmth inside that wasn't completely due to the wine.

I thought this was funny. Why include the line about the wine? If the line had just been “Shallan felt a warmth inside,” wouldn’t anyone assume she was warmed by Adolin’s words? Adding the part about the wine implies some of the warmth she feels is due to the wine. It lessens the sentimentality of the moment. It reminds me of when Shallan returns from the chasms. Adolin is really emotional and heartfelt and Shallan is a little disappointed she didn’t get to tell her joke. It seems like Shallan wants to use humor to keep a little emotional distance from Adolin. Even at the end of OB Shallan is cracking jokes while trying to convince Adolin she prefers him to Kaladin.

 

I think that Shallan has thoughts of love and Adolin never does should be added to the Shallan/Adolin section.

 

Page 7:

Quote

Something felt warm within him at being near her.  Something felt right.  It wasn't like with Laral, his boyhood crush.  Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance.  It was something different, and he couldn't define it.  He only knew he didn't want it to stop.  It pushed back the darkness. (OB, Ch. 99 Reachers)

Someone explain how this is in line with Kaladin at the end of OB saying he never loved her, she just reminded him of someone (i.e. Tien). In this quote he explicitly compares her to Laral and Tarah. How is this not romantic? The part about “something felt right” is what I read in romances about a “One True Love.”

 

Page 13: I hope someone will do a really close read of Set Up to Fail and list every possible thing that could possibly have been set up to fail. I think Shallan/Adolin will still be the most likely thing set up. If I remember right, there is a brief mention of Sebarial, Ialai, and Mraize. But how can the mere mention of their name be called a set up?

 

Page 15:

Quote

 

Brandon said in early 2016 that he needed to do Kal's and Shallan's backstories first, because “they were going to be important, interacting together for the next few books”…

 

I would really like to see them interacting. They hardly do.

[Athena]

Been following this forum for awhile, but haven't posted here before. I just finished OB today, and like many others, the ending of OB was unsatisfying for me in terms of the Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin triangle. I found this thread very cathartic and I pretty much agree with almost everything that has been said. I for one also think that Adolin isn't healthy for Shallan. Adolin isn't in love in Veil and Radiant, but only the image of "Shallan". The image of "Shallan" to me is the simple image of a light-eyed woman that Adolin wants her to be while she is completely more than that. I think the true Shallan is an equal mixture of all three personas" A scholarly light-eyed woman, a woman who isn't afraid to take lead or fight when necessary (Radiant), and a woman who isn't afraid to lie, kill, or have a drink when necessary (Veil).  Will he still be in love with her if he finds out that she killed both her parents? Or the other things that she associates so closely with Radiant and Veil like pragmaticism and subterfuge?

On Shallan's side, I see Adolin as just an anchor she is using to keep hold of the Shallan persona. In the last but one chapter, she keeps on saying that "Adolin knows me" and she keeps on associating that "me" with the Shallan persona while dismissing the Veil and Radiant persona. I think there is still more to come from this and the marriage wasn't a "conclusion", nor is Adolin a good "support system" for Shallan.