[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Starla]

I’m going to pretend like we’re still talking about Kaladin. 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Thanks for your comments and analysis! I'll admit I read Kaladin a little bit differently, but I largely agree with your interpretation of his arc. I agree that he made a lot of progress in the book--much more than I think most are willing to admit. I do think, however, that Kaladin's not completely over his mental insecurities--one of the big hallmarks of that is that he doesn't try to pursue Shallan at all. I've said elsewhere that I think that's a good thing--I don't think Kal was in a place emotionally to pursue a romantic relationship in OB. And he does seem a bit more lost at the end of OB than he was. He seems to have largely lost his drive, and I think that's an important setback for Kaladin to have.

You make some interesting points. I agree Kaladin is not completely over his mental issues, and probably will never be. Sanderson has said he sees our protagonists' mental issues as “a feature rather than a bug” (I love that), so I think Kaladin’s depression will be an integral part of who he is for the rest of his life. That said, I think he's made significant progress in how he relates to the depression in Oathbringer. Rather than giving into it completely and becoming "the wretch," he sees it for what it is and tries to find ways to deal with it in a healthier way. As he mentions in one of his POVs, the best thing is for him to focus on a task. Getting to Thaylen City to help Dalinar becomes his task while they are in Shadesmar, and it helps keep him focused on something other than the darkness.

I don’t think his lack of pursuing Shallan is indicative of a lack of progress. I would have been surprised if he had tried to pursue her. I think it would be out of character. Unlike Syl, he sees Shallan’s causal betrothal to Adolin as a type of oath or commitment, and he wouldn’t betray that. He also respects Adolin and I don’t think he would pursue a woman Adolin cares about. I also don’t see his thoughts about Shallan at the end of the book as a bad thing. Even if he cares about her romantically, she has clearly chosen Adolin, so there’s no reason for him to dwell on the loss and make himself more miserable. He finds the best way he can to let it go (telling himself she reminds him of Tien), and I think that’s a step forward for someone who tends to dwell on things too much.

Also, since I haven’t said it in a while and feel the strong urge to say it repeatedly, I’m relieved Kaladin and Shallan didn’t end up together at the end of the book. I thought she should have taken some time to get herself together before making a lifetime commitment to a partner. I wanted her to stand on her own two feet rather than feeling that she needed a man to stabilize her, but alas, it was not to be. 

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

In WoK and WoR, Kal was largely motivated by two things: duty and hatred. Those are powerful motivators, but as you pointed out at the beginning of your post, by the time OB starts, he's largely getting over his hatred. That leaves him with only duty as his primary fuel, and when he failed in his duty with Elhokar, because he couldn't bring himself to involve himself against either side of people he cared about, it rocked him hard--I'd argue Kaladin hadn't been rocked that hard since Tien's death. This was totally different from the despair of WoK--this was a mind-numbing, crippling realization that he couldn't protect everyone, something he's always tried to do. So now his hatred is gone and duty has failed him...what does he have left? That seems to be the question looming over his head during his conversation with Teft and the end of OB.

Interesting, I had a different take on his mental state at the end. I went back and read his conversation with Teft, and thought it was focused on how they help each other, and none of them have to do this alone. Kaladin says “It doesn’t get easier, Teft. It gets harder, I think, the more you learn about the Words. Fortunately, you do get help. You were mine when I needed it. I’ll be yours.” That's a big purpose for Kaladin, teaching and leading his men. That section ends with the great quote “We lift the bridge together, Teft. And we carry it.”  I think going forward Kaladin will be leading the Windrunners and traveling to help groups of people around Roshar. Flying off to help Skar and Drehy at the end is in line with this. I don’t expect to see him to be hanging around Urithiru much in the coming books. 

I do agree that he needs to deal with his grief for the people he’s lost or failed to protect, and this will be a big focus going forward. Having deep empathy comes with a price, in that you ache for every loss. Eventually this will build up and overwhelm him, like it did in Kholinar. I think this is what he’s facing with the fourth ideal, and why he can't say it yet. He has a ways to go in the “letting go” department.

Interestingly, I think Kaladin and Shallan’s way of dealing with trauma could help each other. She pushes bad things away and tries to forget them, while he dwells on bad things and never forgets them. If they could both find some middle way between those two extremes, where he could learn to let go and she could learn to face things, it could help them both. It's all about balance. Kaladin tried to have a conversation with her about this on the ship, but he said the wrong thing, and she shut down, and they ended up worse off than when they started. Oh well. 

[wotbibliophile]

Kaladin is my favorite character in SA. I can be unreasonable defending him. I think he is great in relationships now, in the past, and in the future. When Tarah tells Kaladin she is moving, it seemed to me that both Kaladin and Tarah wanted their relationship to continue. Tarah seemed interested in the possibility of Kaladin moving with her. He didn't. Their relationship did not end because of Kaladin, it ended because Tarah moved away.

Tarah did not say to Kaladin: 'Kaladin, you never listen to me! I'm leaving! '

or 'Kaladin, I've been talking about engagement rings for weeks. You won't commit to me! I'm leaving!'

or other relationship ending complaints.

Instead it seemed like Tarah was like "You'll move? Really?" (said doubtfully but with the implication that if he moved their relationship would continue)

and Kaladin says "No, not really, but I wish you well" and Tarah says "Yeah, I wish you well too and I hope you get over you're obsession with the dead."

So to me this means Tarah was aware of Kaladin's problem (his problem is not that he is bad at relationships or is a bad boyfriend. His problem is his obsession with the dead) and it was not a deal breaker. Tarah was still interested in a relationship with Kaladin and possibly with helping him let go of the dead.

I see it this way. Kaladin had the choice of saving lives (men he cared about) or continuing his relationship with a woman he cared for. He chose to save lives. I think he made the right choice. Priorities! The men in Kaladin's squad lived because of him. I believe that. This does not make Kaladin commitment phobic. Really it makes him a bit selfless. And, in the future, any potential partner for Kaladin is going to have to accept Bridge 4 as his family. If the only way for Kaladin to have a relationship is to abandon Bridge 4 then he is never going to have a relationship. Kaladin's partner is going to have to accept that Kaladin is a package deal (Kaladin + Bridge 4). Kaladin is not going to abandon Bridge 4 for a relationship. Ever. And I wouldn't want him to.

We have seen how Kaladin is with Bridge 4. He is caring, considerate, and he listens. I see him being the exact same way with his future partner. I see him as great at relationships. His problem is not that he wouldn't care for his partner, his problem is more that he has trouble caring for himself or relaxing or just having fun. (That last one we have seen a little with Shallan).

So I agree that Kaladin is not looking for a relationship, but I don't think that matters. I still think he would be good in a relationship. Syl is very enthusiastic about Kaladin being in a relationship and we have seen Kaladin give in to her nagging already. Also, Tarah pursued him and they ended up in a relationship. (I think their relationship was successful). So it doesn't matter that Kaladin is reluctant, I think he is bound to end up in a relationship anyway and at anytime he would be good in the relationship.

(Aside: I thought from Kaladin's thoughts in the chasms scene when he is holding Shallan that he had had sex, but later it seems like when Tarah kisses him after telling him she was moving that that was his complete sexual experience. Really? One kiss? That's it?!?)

ETA:

20 minutes ago, Starla said:

I’m going to pretend like we’re still talking about Kaladin. 

Me too!

Edited January 26, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Greywatch she/her]

18 minutes ago, Starla said:

Interestingly, I think Kaladin and Shallan’s way of dealing with trauma could help each other. She pushes bad things away and tries to forget them, while he dwells on bad things and never forgets them. If they could both find some middle way between those two extremes, where he could learn to let go and she could learn to face things, it could help them both. It's all about balance. Kaladin tried to have a conversation with her about this on the ship, but he said the wrong thing, and she shut down, and they ended up worse off than when they started. Oh well. 

Also interesting, this seems to be the biggest point of their incompatibility. Every time they see the other's illness/coping mechanism, they admire it. It's more than just one time Kaladin said the wrong thing, it's been a constant theme of them genuinely wanting in the other what makes them dysfunctional. Shallan is always going on in her narrative about Kaladin's stormy nature, rugged, wild, freely emotional - when Kaladin hates his own emotions and finds them inescapably out of his control. Kaladin didn't say the wrong thing, he genuinely admires Shallan's ability to dissociate her emotions away. Neither of them are in a place right now to be of any help to the other, not when they see the dysfunctional behaviour as their own solution. If they grow more in the next book or two, maybe they could be a support to each other, but not any time soon.

[Vissy]

12 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

So to me this means Tarah was aware of Kaladin's problem (his problem is not that he is bad at relationships or is a bad boyfriend. His problem is his obsession with the dead) and it was not a deal breaker. Tarah was still interested in a relationship with Kaladin and possibly with helping him let go of the dead.

I see it this way. Kaladin had the choice of saving lives (men he cared about) or continuing his relationship with a woman he cared for. He chose to save lives. I think he made the right choice. Priorities! The men in Kaladin's squad lived because of him. I believe that. This does not make Kaladin commitment phobic. Really it makes him a bit selfless. And, in the future, any potential partner for Kaladin is going to have to accept Bridge 4 as his family. If the only way for Kaladin to have a relationship is to abandon Bridge 4 then he is never going to have a relationship. Kaladin's partner is going to have to accept that Kaladin is a package deal (Kaladin + Bridge 4). Kaladin is not going to abandon Bridge 4 for a relationship. Ever. And I wouldn't want him to.

I think a little differently. I think what Tarah meant is that Kaladin is too fixated on those he failed. That he needs to eventually get over Tien's death, too. It was hard to believe that Tarah would say something so insensitive knowing that Kaladin lost his little brother, actually. I think she meant that Kaladin needs to be ready to move on and focus on the present, and not the past.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Vissy

[wotbibliophile]

16 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I think a little differently. I think what Tarah meant is that Kaladin is too fixated on those he failed. That he needs to eventually get over Tien's death, too. It was hard to believe that Tarah would say something so insensitive knowing that Kaladin lost his little brother, actually. I think she meant that Kaladin needs to be ready to move on and focus on the present, and not the past.

I agree with this. My "obsession with the dead" was my shorthand for all this. I wasn't trying to be insensitive and I don't think Tarah was insensitive.

Edited January 26, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Starla]

49 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

So I agree that Kaladin is not looking for a relationship, but I don't think that matters. I still think he would be good in a relationship. Syl is very enthusiastic about Kaladin being in a relationship and we have seen Kaladin give in to her nagging already. Also, Tarah pursued him and they ended up in a relationship. (I think their relationship was successful). So it doesn't matter that Kaladin is reluctant, I think he is bound to end up in a relationship anyway and at anytime he would be good in the relationship.

@wotbibliophile Thank you for your post. I have been thinking something similar. I often see people saying Kaladin would not be good in a relationship, or he is not ready for one, but I don’t see that. Yes, his top priority is protecting people, saving lives, and leading his men, and he puts his heart and soul into that. But why would someone with those attributes not be able to have a relationship? He cares about people, he listens, he has strong emotions and feelings for people. These are qualities that can lead to deep friendships and romantic relationships. Just because he is focused on his role as protector doesn’t mean he can’t have a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman. 

I see his and Tarah’s relationship as you do. It was working, but for family reasons, she decided to take the scribe job. She had a strong commitment to her family, just as Kaladin had a strong commitment to his men. She knew him well enough to know he would probably not leave his men to come with her. The relationship did not end because of a problem with either of them, and if she had stayed in the war camp, they might have still been together when he became a slave. 

I do think it would take a certain type of woman to make a good mate for Kaladin. She would need to be strong and independent and not overly needy of his time and attention, and understand his commitment to his work as a radiant and a protector. I've think I've detailed out the qualities of this hypothetical person several times here and in other threads, but I think the ideal person would be another radiant who can work alongside him, probably someone in one of the battle oriented orders who likes to help people. I don't see this person as Shallan. In her current state, I think she would be too needy. Maybe in the future she will be more grounded in herself, but for now I don't think it would work and am relieved her and Kaladin didn't end up together at this stage of their lives.

 

Quote

(Aside: I thought from Kaladin's thoughts in the chasms scene when he is holding Shallan that he had had sex, but later it seems like when Tarah kisses him after telling him she was moving that that was his complete sexual experience. Really? One kiss? That's it?!?)

I didn’t get the sense that that one kiss was it. There was this sentence regarding Tarah's beauty... "The more you saw of it— the more you discovered of its natural facets— the more you loved it.” I suppose that could be interpreted a number of ways, and it’s up to our imagination. 

 

42 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Also interesting, this seems to be the biggest point of their incompatibility. Every time they see the other's illness/coping mechanism, they admire it. It's more than just one time Kaladin said the wrong thing, it's been a constant theme of them genuinely wanting in the other what makes them dysfunctional. Shallan is always going on in her narrative about Kaladin's stormy nature, rugged, wild, freely emotional - when Kaladin hates his own emotions and finds them inescapably out of his control. Kaladin didn't say the wrong thing, he genuinely admires Shallan's ability to dissociate her emotions away. Neither of them are in a place right now to be of any help to the other, not when they see the dysfunctional behaviour as their own solution. If they grow more in the next book or two, maybe they could be a support to each other, but not any time soon.

 

I think they could find ways to help each other that are healthy. The reason I think he said the wrong thing is that he made it sound like the ability to forget painful experiences was good for her, which it isn’t. But it could be good for him to a degree, because his problem is that he can’t forget. He shouldn’t do it to the unhealthy degree that she does it, but I think it would be a good ability for him to see a repetitive thought, realize it is not good for him, and put it side. She does this by instinct, but he would need to do it intentionally. Likewise, she would need to intentionally take a difficult thought and hold it in her mind for a while, and reflect on it. Kaladin does this automatically, but she would need to work at it. They both would need to let go of the technique before it became unhealthy.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, SLNC said:

No? Kaladin was shaken into near uselessness by Elhokar being killed.

Kaladin froze not because of Elhokar, but because two groups of people he loved and cared about were killing each other. The end result was Elhokar died in the mayhem. Kaladin doesn't spend a great deal of time pondering about Elhokar, Adolin thinks more of Elhokar than Kaladin. Mind, I am not saying Kaladin was not impacted by Elhokar's death, but I sincerely did not read this moment as one awful moment where everyone is irrevocably devastated. It's fine, it was Elhokar, but killing off Adolin for so little pay-off seems, once again, pointless.

34 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Jasnah's "death" heavily impacted Navani, you know, her mother. Granted, a bit more behind the scenes, but there was an impact.

Jasnah'a death was barely broached both from Navani and from anyone else's perspective. Sure, she was impacted, but we never got to read it and she such a minor character, it hardly mattered within the narrative. It mattered more for Shallan Jasnah died, not because she was devastated by it, but because it allowed her to grow.

Killing off Adolin to end up into a similar plot would, IMHO, pointless.

36 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Exactly. And what do you see next in store for Adolin? Sure, there is the possible Maya arc, but I see no confirmation or hint, that Adolin will actively pursue it. Every bit that could blossom into character growth for him, has blossomed. Not satisfyingly, for me, but it is done.

Relationship problems? Solved through arranged marriage, that is now fulfilled.

Not knowing his place between all the Radiants? Also solved when a Radiant apparently respects him so much, that she chooses to marry him.

His murder of Sadeas? Swept under the rug.

Besides, him becoming a Radiant won't suddenly turn him into a better character with more depth.

Brandon started to write something in between Adolin and Maya. Sure, he had also started writing something about Adolin murdering Sadeas which didn't pan into anything, but Maya is something else entirely. So unless we honestly believe Brandon would have written Maya partially re-awakening just to throw the plot arc into a ditch just so he has the opportunity to brutally murder Adolin in order to create a meaningless "moment", then I would argue we are going to read more Adolin/Maya. I would argue OB was a confirmation there will be more, though which form it will take, I cannot say yet. 

This being said, I do agree it seems as if Brandon has tried to tied in all the lose end of Adolin's character, but then again, he also tied in all the lose ends of Dalinar's character. Just as he tied in all the lose ends of Kaladin's character at the end of WoR. I mean, thinking just because the current narrative hasn't panned into something more tangible and satisfying nothing more ever will seems overly negative. It is entirely possible it will happen this way, I don't have a great deal lot of trust within Brandon's ability/desire to write Adolin, but everyone keeps on praising Brandon as a writer. If he is half the writer everyone claims he is, then he will make something out of the narrative.

As for relationship problems, this thread was the first to argue it isn't over, trouble is brewing, Adolin/Shallan will divorce and so on. So how can it be solved when the discussion is about Adolin's future, but completely unsolved when the discussion is about Shallan? The argument runs both ways. If Shallan/Adolin is not a finality, if their union is made for the wrong reasons, as it has been argued, then Adolin's relationships issues are NOT over. There is also another aspect of his relationship issues which haven't been mentioned. Adolin has no friends. This has never been solved. We have seen him being more at ease with his soldiers, sitting down with the soldiers, going out to drink with his fellow soldiers, unwinding with his soldiers: now he is the Highprince, it is over. The camaraderie Adolin has been feeling towards his peers will not continue now he is the official leader of house Kholin. It cannot. Kaladin learned this when he became Bridge 4's leader, but unlike Adolin, Kaladin never really seek other people's friendship. Hence, all it not over. On another side of things, Adolin's relationship issues with is father are certainly not over. The question is not whether it is over or not, the question is whether Brandon will write something decent with it.

As for Shallan... So she thinks Adolin is enough as he is and, by perhaps being the first person to ever state it, gave him a boost of self-confidence. Therefore, all of his issues are over. This about the same as saying Shallan's issues are over because Adolin gave her his love and claimed who she was was good enough without the masks. It has been argued it cannot be enough, it would be horrible for the narrative if it were: the same argumentation works for Adolin. So while yes, he found someone willing to accept him as he is, to support him, he still is the only non-magical member of his family. His sickly kid brother ordered him around on the battlefield. On the battlefield. Renarin. Renarin killed the big bad thunderclast, not Adolin. And now Radiants are popping out left and right: how many will there be one year later? I'd be surprised if Adolin's issues with the Radiants are over: they just begun. He hardly had the time to assess them, to let them sink in, but as the battles go and he is more and more useless, then they will pop back, especially considering Adolin doesn't think of himself as either a leader nor a general. He just got shoehorned into a position he is not self-confident he can occupy. Readers tend to forget something very important: Adolin never wanted to be Highprince nor king nor a leader. Now he was forced to accept a position which gave him stomach cramps thinking about back in WoK. How can it be over? It has just begun... Sure, it didn't panned out as expected in OB, but if Brandon wills it, so much more could be written and all is interesting.

The murder of Sadeas was definitely swept under the rug. Some are arguing it is not over. After all, Dalinar sparring Tanalan only had an impact a decade later: it could be Adolin murdering Sadeas will have an impact much later, when Ialai and her nephew finish crafting their vengeance. I do not firmly believe in this and, as I said, I have lost a great deal lot of confidence in Brandon, but theoretically speaking, it could happen. Considering no one ever found about about Adolin murdering Sadeas until the very end, there weren't much page time left to do something with the arc, no matter how disappointing this turned out to be.

As for him becoming a Radiant, we do not know how his relationship with Maya will evolve: all we know is more is likely to come. Will he really become a knight or just a regular man with an enhanced Shardblade? Much is unknown at this point in time, but I doubt Adolin will start surgebinding anytime soon.

57 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And turning him into an Edgedancer, like everyone here seems so inclined to think, will have the same effect.

Point is made above: we don't know how the relationship will evolve. I personally suspect he will not gain full access over Edgedancers powers until he says the same number of oaths as Maya's previous knight. If he's unlucky, then he has to say all five of them: this may take a while. A long while. Adolin is likely to stay normal for quite some time.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

And yet, he doesn't. He probably won't. He's the Kholin highprince now. He won't have time for some kind of grand adventure. He will be entangled in the same thing every human will be on Roshar: survival. And closely working with the Knights Radiant at that. His father is leading them after all.

He won't have his own journey because he never was intended to. He is not a main character.

I hate the Highprince arc, I find it restrictive and boring, but to be fair being a Highprince did not prevent Dalinar from getting a story arc. We have to apply the same logic here: Adolin becoming a Highprince doesn't ban him from all narrative. Many things can happen: the author merely has to be a bit more creative here.

Venli and Moash aren't main characters either and yet they are going on a journey. Teft certainly isn't and will never be a main character and he too has his journey. Rock is no main character nor can we expect him to become one, but the ending of OB suggested a journey. Why does Adolin need to be static when no other character are? This isn't done deal: Brandon could surprise us and write something.... really great with the material he's got. There are nice elements. Stuff like Adolin thinking Sadead torched the Rift, stuff like Adolin thinking Dalinar would have stopped it had he not been overcome by grief: how harsh can the truth be? How terrible is it to find out your life-long hero did something you spent a lifetime blaming your worst enemy for? This is a good narrative element: it has a lot of potential. Now Brandon just has to agree and write it.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

The point is that his death would impact these characters. That was the sole point I was trying to make. Showing alternatives, that are definitely there, doesn't defeat that point.

I know, that you don't like Dalinar, but despite his strictness, he cares about Adolin and is proud of him. I really don't know why you think he doesn't love him.

Shallan is his wife, if their love is really as deep as everyone is trying to make me believe, his death would devastate her. Not to mention, that her anchor point would crumble away.

And redundancy? If anything, Kaladin's inability to let Adolin go showed how much he actually likes Adolin now. It would devastate him, redundancy is completely irrelevant for that.

Non-Radiant Kholin highprince, almost unanimously liked too. Hell of a target for the enemy to create some turmoil in the leadership to be honest.

I am showing alternatives to illustrate killing Adolin is not the only way to create drama and emotional impact onto the main characters. Other characters are better suited for this, characters who's absence will not harm the narrative, characters readers are fond of (say young Wikim), but haven't been overly invested in. Adolin is still in the middle of his story arc, now is not the time to die. It wouldn't even be satisfying.

I say Dalinar doesn't love Adolin because I never read love coming from him towards Adolin, not since Evi died. Present day Dalinar is cold, harsh, hard with Adolin whereas he is supportive of Renarin. This is odd considering Dalinar ignored Renarin for half his life, but now they are adults, he focuses a lot more on his younger son. I have argued this for a long time, but I do feel distance in between Dalinar and Adolin, like a rift, a coldness. I mean, I don't think Dalinar really doesn't love Adolin, but I do think there is something really, really off within their relationship. I am also not sure Adolin's death would be this gigantic character defining moment for others.

I cannot say how devastated Shallan would be if Adolin were to die: she didn't sound particularly frazzled when he was dying in Shadesmar. I would argue it would be worst for her to lose one of her brothers.

As much as Kaladin may care about Adolin now, he is not one of his men, he is not a member of his crew. Adolin is not Bridge 4: Renarin dying would probably be worst for Kaladin. Anyone from Bridge 4 dying would be worst. Or maybe young Oroden or Gavinor, hard to say, but if the sole objective of killing Adolin is to create a "moment" for Kaladin's character, then he is being wasted. Killing other characters would create a better, bigger one.

We don't know how much of a target Highprince Adolin will be: he could be seen as the weakest link or too surrounded by magical Radiants to access. This is hard to predict. The point however is not to state whether or not there will be opportunities for Adolin to die, I am sure there will be, but whether or not it is a good idea for the narrative.

[Greywatch she/her]

38 minutes ago, Starla said:

I think they could find ways to help each other that are healthy. The reason I think he said the wrong thing is that he made it sound like the ability to forget painful experiences was good for her, which it isn’t. But it could be good for him to a degree, because his problem is that he can’t forget. He shouldn’t do it to the unhealthy degree that she does it, but I think it would be a good ability for him to see a repetitive thought, realize it is not good for him, and put it side. She does this by instinct, but he would need to do it intentionally. Likewise, she would need to intentionally take a difficult thought and hold it in her mind for a while, and reflect on it. Kaladin does this automatically, but she would need to work at it. They both would need to let go of the technique before it became unhealthy.

I think it's a possibility that they could support each other in this, but I don't think it's a given. Right now, they are both getting support from other places that actually is closer to what they need. In this, Kaladin wasn't necessarily thinking that he should be able to recognize a thought as unhealthy and put it aside, he listened to the explanation of Shallan just making it disappear, looked at that complete repression, and thought, yes that's it. He can't see the distress that it's putting her through; he was given the signs of it and didn't even follow up on her bad reaction because to him it was so obviously a Good Thing. And Shallan seeing the free emotions of Kaladin as something amazing and great and attractive when Kaladin is put under so much distress by his situation and the emotions that come from it, I feel uncomfortable with how when she thinks of him, it's always that surface level of crackly bitterness, which is somewhat present in his POV... but just so different from the Kaladin we've gotten to know.

I see your point that they don't recognize those are unhealthy things in the other person and want some of it for themselves, but that leads right back to my point, which is I think it's a huge problem that they don't recognize it as unhealthy. They can't see past that to see how the other person needs to grow past it. Kaladin can't help Shallan stop repressing her emotions while he's desperate for the ability to do exactly the same thing, when he sees it as a wonderful thing. He's not going to know where the limit really is if he's trying to do it himself. And Shallan can't help Kaladin while she can't even recognize his emotions as the thing that are bringing him down, especially seeing how much his depressive states can and have been a reaction to his circumstances as darkeyed, which is something she totally dismissed in WoR and never thought about again in OB. 

I would love for both of them to grow more past this state of affairs, and I'm curious to see how far they are after the year skip, but right now, I don't think they could help each other.

100% agreed with everything regarding Tarah and a possible future partner; pretty in line with my thoughts.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I see your point that they don't recognize those are unhealthy things in the other person and want some of it for themselves, but that leads right back to my point, which is I think it's a huge problem that they don't recognize it as unhealthy. They can't see past that to see how the other person needs to grow past it.

I completely ageee that neither recognizes that the other needs to grow past these mental health issues, but part of that is because said mental health issues (at least as it’s been portrayed on the page) aren’t as prevalent when around the other person. Kaladin doesn’t know Shallan is unhealthily repressing her memories because she spontaneously told him brutal memories about killing her father and her painful childhood; he can’t perceive repression when that’s not how she’s acted around him. When Kaladin is around Shallan he is lighter and less depressed; he banters and jokes and broods less and comments on this “lightness” repeatedly. One could argue that they have been around each other enough that they should have picked up on the extent of each other’s mental health issues or that Kaladin should have guessed the unhealthiness of Shallan’s way of overcoming her memories from her comment that she was “fracturing” (though that’s giving him pretty super human powers of perception when, again, this goes against his experience of her being willing to share painful memories), but we’ve been presented as a reader with scenes that illustrate each other’s mental health issues are lessened around the other. I agree that they need to realize the extent of each other’s issues in order to be in a functional relationship (or take major steps to overcome them prior to entering into a relationship), but we’ve already seen examples of how they lessen each other’s issues. So I agree with @Starla‘s point that they could help each other in this regard, and though it’s not the time in either of their narratives IMO, Brandon has pretty explicitly set up that the potential is there.

[Greywatch she/her]

59 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I completely ageee that neither recognizes that the other needs to grow past these mental health issues, but part of that is because said mental health issues (at least as it’s been portrayed on the page) aren’t as prevalent when around the other person. Kaladin doesn’t know Shallan is unhealthily repressing her memories because she spontaneously told him brutal memories about killing her father and her painful childhood; he can’t perceive repression when that’s not how she’s acted around him. When Kaladin is around Shallan he is lighter and less depressed; he banters and jokes and broods less and comments on this “lightness” repeatedly. One could argue that they have been around each other enough that they should have picked up on the extent of each other’s mental health issues or that Kaladin should have guessed the unhealthiness of Shallan’s way of overcoming her memories from her comment that she was “fracturing” (though that’s giving him pretty super human powers of perception when, again, this goes against his experience of her being willing to share painful memories), but we’ve been presented as a reader with scenes that illustrate each other’s mental health issues are lessened around the other. I agree that they need to realize the extent of each other’s issues in order to be in a functional relationship (or take major steps to overcome them prior to entering into a relationship), but we’ve already seen examples of how they lessen each other’s issues. So I agree with @Starla‘s point that they could help each other in this regard, and though it’s not the time in either of their narratives IMO, Brandon has pretty explicitly set up that the potential is there.

I more perceive that not only have they not spent enough time around each other, but haven't made the effort to get to know each other in a way that really matters to pick up the extent of the other's issues. They don't pay enough attention to each other, intentionally choosing not to get closer to the other, if only for Adolin's sake, and in my opinion, that choice matters. The fact that they chose to remain at surface level understanding of each other, but continuing to get actual emotional and mental support from other sources (Syl and Bridge Four for Kaladin, Adolin and Wit for Shallan), but we also see lessening of their issues with Syl to Kaladin (he's incredibly light-hearted around her, and without the bratty jokes at his expense), and Adolin to Shallan (if you take this aspect of the entire conclusion of their arc together as Brandon presented it, which I am doing). Kaladin and Shallan just don't seem to ever really see each other. Sure, I've found their banter funny here and there, but they pretty much only have their banter.

[Prelude]

My biggest fear is that BS has written himself into a corner (at least for me ) with this “love triangle”. If Shallan and Andolin were to divorce I will find it unstatifying and anticlimactic. I didn’t want the pairing but the thought of reading : you go your way, I’ll go mine...boring. It seems highly unlikely with her dependence, year skip and then just Brandon himself. I tend to think the marriage will either continue with a realization of a truer love for each other or Andolin dies. I like Andolin but I will sacrifice anyone for Kaladins happiness. If it’s fate for Shallan and Kaladin let it be epic and costly. 

Sorry I haven’t read the last two pages of the thread. I saw all the divorce conversation and wanted to voice my thoughts. Now back to the thread as it stands. 

[analyticaposteriori]

Shallan and Kaladin spent enough time with one another?

Man, I need whatever copy of OB you people have.

[GarrethGrey]

I don't know, expecting someone to perceive another persons mental illness and understand it without some sort of explanation, when nobody around them does is a little unfair. Also, Kaladin has shown he understands Shallan to a pretty good degree, when they first got to Akethkar and Shallan tripped on purpose and hiked up her skirts so she'd be embarrassed, Kaladin knew exactly what she was doing and why, Shallan even makes a note of how he was the only one who understood. Then again after she was stabbed, Kaladin knew the exact right thing to say to calm her down. And then there's the conversation on the Honor sprens ship which I've brought up before. I think Kaladin has actually paid great deal of attention to Shallan, he just never made a move or tried to get closer romantically, if it wasn't for Adolin, I'm sure he would have. As far as how much attention Shallan has paid to Kaladin? That I'm really not sure, she thinks he's hot, and loves his eyes, but for Adolin, it's his great hair and his muscled arms, she just comes across as very superficial. But with all of her identity issues, I can hardly blame her, she doesn't even understand herself, how can she understand anyone else?

[Greywatch she/her]

2 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

I don't know, expecting someone to perceive another persons mental illness and understand it without some sort of explanation, when nobody around them does is a little unfair. Also, Kaladin has shown he understands Shallan to a pretty good degree, when they first got to Akethkar and Shallan tripped on purpose and hiked up her skirts so she'd be embarrassed, Kaladin knew exactly what she was doing and why, Shallan even makes a note of how he was the only one who understood. Then again after she was stabbed, Kaladin knew the exact right thing to say to calm her down. And then there's the conversation on the Honor sprens ship which I've brought up before. I think Kaladin has actually paid great deal of attention to Shallan, he just never made a move or tried to get closer romantically, if it wasn't for Adolin, I'm sure he would have. As far as how much attention Shallan has paid to Kaladin? That I'm really not sure, she thinks he's hot, and loves his eyes, but for Adolin, it's his great hair and his muscled arms, she just comes across as very superficial. But with all of her identity issues, I can hardly blame her, she doesn't even understand herself, how can she understand anyone else?

I don't know... The fact that they can have a couple moments like that, but still totally miss each other on a more genuine level of understanding there's something more going on with their issues... I know this thread is not really willing to give Adolin a single inch, but I thought it was a well-made comparison of Adolin and Kaladin in OB, as they relate to Shallan, that Kaladin may have a couple moments of... like the banter? they're both good at the banter. But when it comes to the serious stuff - my go-to is the scene on the Reacher ship where they totally just miss each other - when it comes to genuine knowing each other, I just don't see anything there. Adolin, while noted as not having the same ability for womanly banter (as it's thought of in Alethi culture), good-naturedly goes along with it, and quietly observes Shallan throughout the book to the point that he does know something's wrong and that Shallan is putting on fronts. Shallan herself observes Adolin - I mostly noted it in Part One for the Sadeas murder and Part ...Four/Five? About Adolin not wanting to be king, and sees his real feelings and supports them. It's been talked through this a bit, mostly having this totally dismissed as somehow inferior to what Kaladin can do to support Shallan, but in OB we see Kaladin and Shallan having that surface level similarity but looking right past each other when it counts; where the whole plot between Adolin and Shallan is about them coming to more understanding with each other and listening to and supporting each other.

The last sentence, I'm down with. I'm not sure she sees other people clearly - but what I read had Adolin and Shallan giving each other way more real support than with Kaladin.

[analyticaposteriori]

Once again - between coming out of chasms and ending of OB Kaladin and Shallan have maybe half an hour of cumulative face to face time (I'm ignoring the two offscreen scenes because I am not going to judge characters on something the author can't be bothered to write about - I'll just assume that there was no interaction between them on the drawing Urithiru/Thaylen flights).

The notion that in that ridiculously small amount of time they should've come to some sort of deep understanding of one another's extremely complicated psychological issues and because they did not, they are incompatible, is ridiculous. Quite frankly Adolin and Shallan may be even worse off in that department considering their "time spent with each other/level of understanding (which is still very far from complete)" ratio.

Edited January 26, 2018 by analyticaposteriori

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, GarrethGrey said:

I don't know, expecting someone to perceive another persons mental illness and understand it without some sort of explanation, when nobody around them does is a little unfair. Also, Kaladin has shown he understands Shallan to a pretty good degree, when they first got to Akethkar and Shallan tripped on purpose and hiked up her skirts so she'd be embarrassed, Kaladin knew exactly what she was doing and why, Shallan even makes a note of how he was the only one who understood. Then again after she was stabbed, Kaladin knew the exact right thing to say to calm her down. And then there's the conversation on the Honor sprens ship which I've brought up before. I think Kaladin has actually paid great deal of attention to Shallan, he just never made a move or tried to get closer romantically, if it wasn't for Adolin, I'm sure he would have. As far as how much attention Shallan has paid to Kaladin? That I'm really not sure, she thinks he's hot, and loves his eyes, but for Adolin, it's his great hair and his muscled arms, she just comes across as very superficial. But with all of her identity issues, I can hardly blame her, she doesn't even understand herself, how can she understand anyone else?

Thank you!

Adolin was always that guy, that was standing in between a possible relationship between Kaladin and Shallan. Especially after Jasnah scolded Shallan for having wandering eyes. It was repression on her side, but feelings didn't go away, they just reemerged in Veil. Same goes for Kaladin, who mantralike always chanted "She's betrothed to Adolin and that is the end of it."

It was a choice, yes. But not a free choice. It was not an informed choice, but a choice made on social expectations and sense of duty. It was not brought to closure, but forcefully repressed.

To extend those thoughts and attraction of Shallan to Kaladin: She switches her perception of his hatefulness to passion and determination. And with that hits the spot. She just understands him. And launches into an internal tirade about these features of him. That's attraction. What does she have to say about Adolin? He's kind, noble and genuine, though at times a bit dimwitted? Flattering. At least he always has nice hair and strong arms, I guess.

[wotbibliophile]

8 hours ago, Greywatch said:

The fact that they can have a couple moments like that, but still totally miss each other on a more genuine level of understanding there's something more going on with their issues... I know this thread is not really willing to give Adolin a single inch, but I thought it was a well-made comparison of Adolin and Kaladin in OB, as they relate to Shallan,

I agree with @analyticaposteriori  if you are going to compare them and how well they relate to Shallan then how long they have spent in Shallan's company should be relevant. Adolin has spent days and weeks (and maybe months) more time with Shallan than Kaladin has. For Shallan/Kaladin's small interactions they understand each other very well. For Shallan/Adolin's interactions they are only just now getting to know each other. Not flattering. (I say this based a little on the arc you Greywatch mention, that they come to greater understanding of each other.) For example, I think it is brand new information for Adolin that Shallan is a compulsive liar. That is the first thing Kaladin knows about Shallan. lol

 

ETA:

@Greywatch Thanks for that post about Shallan and Pattern. It is great to have those quotes. I think it is possible Shallan could ignore signs that Pattern is losing his grip. I don't think that has been ruled out. Pattern seems in pretty good shape which is good, but we also got multiple warnings from Pattern that Shallan was entering a danger zone. The fact that she still has Veil and Radiant and that she is still ignoring her last truth says to me that the potential to hit that danger zone is still there.

Edited January 26, 2018 by wotbibliophile

[Greywatch she/her]

48 minutes ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree with @analyticaposteriori  if you are going to compare them and how well they relate to Shallan then how long they have spent in Shallan's company should be relevant. Adolin has spent days and weeks (and maybe months) more time with Shallan than Kaladin has. For Shallan/Kaladin's small interactions they understand each other very well. For Shallan/Adolin's interactions they are only just now getting to know each other. Not flattering. (I say this based a little on the arc you Greywatch mention, that they come to greater understanding of each other.) For example, I think it is brand new information for Adolin that Shallan is a compulsive liar. That is the first thing Kaladin knows about Shallan. lol

 

ETA:

@Greywatch Thanks for that post about Shallan and Pattern. It is great to have those quotes. I think it is possible Shallan could ignore signs that Pattern is losing his grip. I don't think that has been ruled out. Pattern seems in pretty good shape which is good, but we also got multiple warnings from Pattern that Shallan was entering a danger zone. The fact that she still has Veil and Radiant and that she is still ignoring her last truth says to me that the potential to hit that danger zone is still there.

One, actually Shallan has known both of them for the same amount of time - she met Kaladin first, even. Given that our sense of time is skewed because it's been years for us, but only a couple months for them, I completely disagree with the take in your first paragraph. Given that Adolin and Shallan's arc is about them becoming honest with each other - we are explicitly given the reason that they are nervous to share their real selves with each other is that they want the relationship to work, the fact that they succeed in the end is not proof against their relationship. While Shallan and Kaladin remained stagnant, Adolin and Shallan moved forward. The entire point of everything I've said in this thread is that Kaladin and Shallan still are missing serious gaps, and Adolin and Shallan are succeeding. The fact that they are still in the process of moving forward doesn't mean it's over. It means they're moving forward and Shallan and Kaladin are not.

It is not only possible that Shallan was ignoring his warnings but explicitly in the text I quoted. It's already there. In the quotes, we see that Shallan sees his warnings, and so do we. She sees them exactly for that they are and doesn't comment on them, but in part five, she does answer Pattern. I directly answered exactly that line of thinking in my quotes and commentary, but I'll repeat myself. Shallan is certainly an unreliable narrator, but we have LOTS of Shallan seeing Pattern's warnings and worry and choosing not to answer him. It is in the book. When Pattern is unhappy, Shallan sees it, and so do we. It's explicitly written. She's unreliable but not THAT unreliable. We see, many times, Pattern being unhappy with the situation, and Shallan's pov explicitly recognizes it. It is not ignored by her pov. It's never left out of her pov. She sometimes doesn't answer him, but she doesn't block out his reaction to what's going on. I do not agree that it's possible, as it'd go against narrative sense, against how we've seen it written when Shallan really IS blocking out something - we've seen what it looks like in the text when Shallan is blocking out something and it is not this.

It's at the end in part five when she stabilizes to only having veil and radiant that she finally talks to Pattern about how she's doing. And the point is that she does. After not answering Pattern's unhappiness throughout kholinar up until when Shallan has her big moment with all her selves... Then she is honest with Pattern. Their relationship in part five is the best we've seen it by any metric. Brandon doesn't leave things out of Shallan's pov. When something is wrong, he shows it, and shows Shallan's reaction to it. OB, she doesn't always respond to Pattern but she sees him. WoR, she blocks things out, but it's still visible to us in the narrative. Brandon explicitly shows us when something is wrong with Shallan.

[analyticaposteriori]

38 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

One, actually Shallan has known both of them for the same amount of time - she met Kaladin first, even.

It's not about how long they have known each other but about how much time they actually spend in each other's company. Unlike Adolin and Shallan, Kaladin and Shallan hardly ever interact after they first become aware of the other one's issues in the chasms (in fact after the healing tent they don't talk to one another for like 800 pages). That's not really surprising - they have no business to interact with one another in Urithiru (Kaladin is a guard captain in the Kholin quarters who still very much sees himself as a darkeyed, lower class man, while Shallan is a lighteyed noblewoman in Sebarial camp who is bethroted to the Kholin heir; the societal expectations are rooted far too deep for the factor of them being KR to play any significant role in such a short timeframe), in Kholinar they each take up a different task and after that there is not much of a time for anything - but it's how it is.

[Greywatch she/her]

15 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

It's not about how long they have known each other but about how much time they actually spend in each other's company. Unlike Adolin and Shallan, Kaladin and Shallan hardly ever interact after they first become aware of the other one's issues in the chasms (in fact after the healing tent they don't talk to one another for like 800 pages). That's not really surprising - they have no business to interact with one another in Urithiru (Kaladin is a guard captain in the Kholin quarters who still very much sees himself as a darkeyed, lower class man, while Shallan is a lighteyed noblewoman in Sebarial camp who is bethroted to the Kholin heir; the societal expectations are rooted far too deep for the factor of them being KR to play any significant role in such a short timeframe), in Kholinar they each take up a different task and after that there is not much of a time for anything - but it's how it is.

Kaladin in OB, though he had trouble coming to terms with it now, is now of high rank as a Radiant, and had every right to spend time with anyone he likes, especially spending time around all of the Kholins as a equal. He sure doesn't let the Kholins high rank stop him from acting how he wants to act. Kaladin and Shallan both intentionally chose not to spend time around each other after WoR. Even when they did do things together, until Kholinar almost all of it was offscreen. That is how it happened, yeah.

[Dreamstorm]

13 hours ago, Greywatch said:

We see this in reverse with Kaladin and Syl in WoR, as we get to see what her fading back out looks like and it's similar to Pattern at the beginning. Just a shape on the walls, on the ground, barely able to say words. This form of Pattern has never shown itself again. Pattern has never gone non-verbal since we meet him in WoR, has never drifted without being able to answer Shallan, and never gets "stupid" like we see Syl when Kal+Syl's bond frays.

I can't quite get there on Kaladin/Syl's bond fraying being a good metric for which to evaluate the potential of Shallan/Pattern's bond fraying.  Not only are they different spren with very different methods of strengthening their bond (oaths vs. truths), the progression doesn't line up.  To break it down:

• Kal/Syl: Syl's first Radiant dies and she is in hibernation/near death for thousands of years.  When she comes back to the physical realm she is flighty, confused, incoherent, etc.  When Kal starts abandoning his oaths, she starts reverting to this state.  When she is "revived" with Kal's third oath, she doesn't come back up in that incoherent state and have to regain everything - she is normal Syl, or even Syl with greater clarity.
• Shallan/Pattern: We do not see the initial bonding, relationship or abandoning of truths.  We pick up with Pattern after Shallan has started re-saying her truths and Pattern is "revived" (i.e. in line with Kal/Syl post-third oath.)  He is as you say, incoherent, confused, etc., very like Syl was when she first came into the physical realm after thousands of years but not like Syl was when she was revived.

The conclusion to this IMO is either (i) when we first see Pattern in WoR this is his first foray into the physical realm or the first in a long, long time (10 years is not long for a spren) which accounts for his behavior or (ii) Pattern's progression through abandoning oaths/truths and revival is not analogous Syl's.  If you believe Shallan was bonded to another cryptic when she was younger (which some people have posited), then Syl could be a valid comparison.  If not, it doesn't align.

Another point (if you want to use Kal/Syl as an example for Shallan/Pattern) is that Syl's reaction to Kal starting to abandon his oaths is not in line with how we see her when she is revived from that abandonment (i.e. Syl immediately pre-chasms is different from Syl immediately post-third third oath), so I don't think we can say Pattern with his bond being strained needs to be in line with Pattern immediately post-revival (i.e. Pattern in early WoR.)  Of course, maybe it is for Pattern, but if we try and use Syl has any sort of example then it doesn't line up.

14 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Pattern has never been much of a talker, but having gone through both books today making this post, Pattern only grows in (1) how often he talks (2) how much he talks

I liked your analysis of Pattern and found it fun to read, but I think we disagree on a very fundamental point; Pattern is a talker and at the end of OB he is talking less and less often.  In Shallan final viewpoints (I think last four? - when Adolin "sees" her, she chooses Adolin, making the map in Urithiru and prepping for wedding), Pattern says one line (the "this is a good you" line.)  Compared to mid/late-WoR and early OB, that is a lot less talking.  Maybe coincidental because Brandon didn't have the space to fit it in, but that's where you get the bulk of the "Pattern seems to be fading" argument; it's because he's not part of the narrative at the end of OB nearly as much as he had been previously.

For me, the strongest evidence that Pattern's bond with Shallan is fine is that she can Lightweave the world map in Urithiru just fine and also do her Lightweaving/possible Soulcasting trick to create her illusions at the end.  She does not seem to have any issues with drawing in stormlight or her powers.  However, to argue against this, I don't think we can draw much comparison to Kal/Syl (unless we say Pattern was freshly in the physical realm in early WoR.)  It's just tricky to definitively know one way or another.

11 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I more perceive that not only have they not spent enough time around each other, but haven't made the effort to get to know each other in a way that really matters to pick up the extent of the other's issues. They don't pay enough attention to each other, intentionally choosing not to get closer to the other, if only for Adolin's sake, and in my opinion, that choice matters. The fact that they chose to remain at surface level understanding of each other, but continuing to get actual emotional and mental support from other sources (Syl and Bridge Four for Kaladin, Adolin and Wit for Shallan), but we also see lessening of their issues with Syl to Kaladin (he's incredibly light-hearted around her, and without the bratty jokes at his expense), and Adolin to Shallan (if you take this aspect of the entire conclusion of their arc together as Brandon presented it, which I am doing). Kaladin and Shallan just don't seem to ever really see each other.

I don't disagree with any of this, but Starla's point was they they could help each other, and I was pointing out that Brandon has put on the page that their mental health issues were better at times when around one another, i.e. he gave us scenes where Kal's main mental health issue (depression) lessened when around Shallan (feeling lighter) and where Shallan main mental health issue (memory repression) lessened when around Kaladin (telling her secrets).  Maybe this will not be explored further; maybe it will be explored in a future book.  But one can't argue that this dynamic wasn't included in the books.

10 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I know this thread is not really willing to give Adolin a single inch

Hey now!  You and I have been over this quite a bit; I agree with you about the Adolin/Shallan arc (and taking Kaladin out of it, I quite like their relationship), but from the "Adolin sees the real Shallan" scene onward, I think we get a bunch of warning signs in the text.  But that well trodden ground 

10 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

The notion that in that ridiculously small amount of time they should've come to some sort of deep understanding of one another's extremely complicated psychological issues and because they did not, they are incompatible, is ridiculous.

I agree with you... I think Kaladin would have to have super human perception to get what was going on.  He doesn't get it.  His conversation with Shallan indicates he doesn't get it.  But there's no reason he should have gotten it.  But, we still got our author showing us Shallan pushed past her repression with him (i.e. told him her secrets).  Maybe it's just representative of life; sometimes you share deep things with people and have a connection but in the end the moment means nothing.  Maybe it's a way of showing the reader a lot of potential in a relationship, though.  Given Brandon doesn't seem to be a writer who wastes page space on pointing out "sometimes moments mean nothing", I choose the latter.  (Well, for that and a lot of other reasons which take a 17 page google doc to elaborate, LOL.)

[DeployParachute]

25 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Kaladin in OB, though he had trouble coming to terms with it now, is now of high rank as a Radiant, and had every right to spend time with anyone he likes, especially spending time around all of the Kholins as a equal. He sure doesn't let the Kholins high rank stop him from acting how he wants to act. Kaladin and Shallan both intentionally chose not to spend time around each other after WoR. Even when they did do things together, until Kholinar almost all of it was offscreen. That is how it happened, yeah.

It almost feels like you are being deliberately obtuse in regards to this, as you fail to acknowledge the extreme social and emotional pressures on both of them to ignore each other. There are many reasons neither of them could interact with each other in a regular in meaningful fashion:

1. They had separate duties and responsibilities that occupied their time, and what little free time she had, Shallan was obligated to spend time with her betrothed, due to expectations from both society and from herself.  I'll need to go back and read through the sections to confirm, but I find it interesting to note that Shallan did very little active pursuit of Adolin herself, it was always Adolin who had to come and find her. She was always happy when he did show up, but I find it strange that there is very little proactiveness on her part during OB in her pursuit of Adolin, unlike her initial pursuit of him during WoR, where she was very much on a mission.  

2. If you are harboring romantic interest in someone who is not your betrothed or significant other, and you are trying to ensure you are meeting the expectations for your current situation, do you a) risk all of that by actively choosing to spend more time with the person who is potentially a threat to your budding relationship and place in Alethi society, or do you b ) pretend that person doesn't exist outside the times where your responsibilities force you to interact with them?  Shallan doesn't want to betray Adolin, and she doesn't want to fail in the commitment that she made with the causal betrothal, so what else is she to do but intentionally ignore Kaladin and where these fledgling feelings she has for him could lead.  Not to mention that before Kaladin even returns, she learns that he was the one who slew her brother on the battlefield.  Not to mention that she was actively chastised by Jasnah for even spending some of her free thoughts thinking about Kaladin. When you feel something is potentially wrong, and other people insinuate to you it is wrong, then yeah, you're going to try to avoid that thing.  This isn't rocket science, you can see this kind of human behavior in your own life.  I know I've seen it in mine.

3. The same goes for Kaladin as it did in my second point about Shallan.  The expectations are there, and have always been there.  I like Shallan, but she is off limits, because she is Adolin's.  When you like someone, and you know you CAN'T HAVE THEM, you don't seek out their company to become best friends.  You avoid them until you can either confront your emotions about them, or get over them entirely.  Unless of course you want to actively seek to disrupt an existing relationship to insert yourself. But again, neither of these characters are that kind of person.  It's one giant game of circling the elephant in the room, looking at the walls, and going about your tasks while pretending its not there.  It's avoidance, and it's a perfectly natural response for human beings in this kind of situation. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

It almost feels like you are being deliberately obtuse in regards to this, as you fail to acknowledge the extreme social and emotional pressures on both of them to ignore each other. There are many reasons neither of them could interact with each other in a regular in meaningful fashion:

1. They had separate duties and responsibilities that occupied their time, and what little free time she had, Shallan was obligated to spend time with her betrothed, due to expectations from both society and from herself.  I'll need to go back and read through the sections to confirm, but I find it interesting to note that Shallan did very little active pursuit of Adolin herself, it was always Adolin who had to come and find her. She was always happy when he did show up, but I find it strange that there is very little proactiveness on her part during OB in her pursuit of Adolin, unlike her initial pursuit of him during WoR, where she was very much on a mission.  

2. If you are harboring romantic interest in someone who is not your betrothed or significant other, and you are trying to ensure you are meeting the expectations for your current situation, do you a) risk all of that by actively choosing to spend more time with the person who is potentially a threat to your budding relationship and place in Alethi society, or do you b ) pretend that person doesn't exist outside the times where your responsibilities force you to interact with them?  Shallan doesn't want to betray Adolin, and she doesn't want to fail in the commitment that she made with the causal betrothal, so what else is she to do but intentionally ignore Kaladin and where these fledgling feelings she has for him could lead.  Not to mention that before Kaladin even returns, she learns that he was the one who slew her brother on the battlefield.  Not to mention that she was actively chastised by Jasnah for even spending some of her free thoughts thinking about Kaladin. When you feel something is potentially wrong, and other people insinuate to you it is wrong, then yeah, you're going to try to avoid that thing.  This isn't rocket science, you can see this kind of human behavior in your own life.  I know I've seen it in mine.

3. The same goes for Kaladin as it did in my second point about Shallan.  The expectations are there, and have always been there.  I like Shallan, but she is off limits, because she is Adolin's.  When you like someone, and you know you CAN'T HAVE THEM, you don't seek out their company to become best friends.  You avoid them until you can either confront your emotions about them, or get over them entirely.  Unless of course you want to actively seek to disrupt an existing relationship to insert yourself. But again, neither of these characters are that kind of person.  It's one giant game of circling the elephant in the room, looking at the walls, and going about your tasks while pretending its not there.  It's avoidance, and it's a perfectly natural response for human beings in this kind of situation. 

Exactly this.

And what do we have now? A completed arranged union between a woman, who doesn't know who she wants to be and what she wants to do (no, that ambivalence isn't gone as we have confirmation, that she still will use her masks and only has marginal control over them), torn between duties to her highprince husband and to humanity as a Radiant, and a man, who never really thinks about his wife, but still has an obligation to make it work due to social expectations, still tried to get out, but in the end didn't, because his now wife begged him for help with her ambivalence problems (so she could anchor Shallan to him). Great foundations, great chemistry between them (/s). This union is one of social expectations and necessity. Feelings never factored in. Sexual attractions are not feelings of love, but often get confused.

Regarding Kaladin and Shallan not understanding each other:

I beg to differ, extremely. Kaladin and Shallan spent 1 - one - day together by circumstance and understood more about each other, than Adolin has understood about Shallan during the whole of their courtship. Their respective illnesses are not what defines their character! It is a part of their characterization, yes, but it is not what they really are.

Shallan completely switched her view of Kaladin from perceived hatefulness, to seeing him as a man of passion, dedication and determination, which is spot on. What Kaladin once saw as lighteyed arrogance, he then saw as what Shallan really is. A survivor, that was forced to do terrible things to her own family, but despite her brokenness - she survived.

Regarding Adolin understanding Shallan's mental issues:

He doesn't. Plain and simple. How could he? Not even Shallan herself understands it. Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. And we also know, that she not yet has regained control over them through another WoB.

Thing is, that she only perceives these shortcomings. In reality, she would be perfectly capable of doing these things without Veil and Radiant. It is all in her head.

There is a dichotomy, that @Dreamstorm mentioned a long time ago now:

Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, because by handling Veil as a different person, he confirms Shallan's own perception of her problem and forces her to hold onto her masks, because he is also making clear, that he isn't interested in anything Veil represents, which are intrinsic parts of Shallan though. Everything Veil did, Shallan also did. Everything Veil will do, Shallan will also do. Her mask doesn't matter, her thoughts on the masks don't matter. Veil isn't different from Shallan. It is all Shallan. Including her feelings for Kaladin, which certainly aren't gone from Veil.

Kaladin, on the other hand, is saying the wrong things, but doing the right things, by dealing with Veil as if she was Shallan too. Because she is.

Edited January 26, 2018 by SLNC

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Regarding Adolin understanding Shallan's mental issues:

He doesn't. Plain and simple. How could he? Not even Shallan herself understands it. Adolin thinks, that she is becoming different persons. Which is just plain wrong. She is still Shallan - there is one WoB a few pages back that confirms that. She has been crafting masks to fix perceived shortcomings of herself, but she lost control over them. And we also know, that she not yet has regained control over them through another WoB.

Thing is, that she only perceives these shortcomings. In reality, she would be perfectly capable of doing these things without Veil and Radiant. It is all in her head.

There is a dichotomy, that @Dreamstorm mentioned a long time ago now:

Regarding Adolin treating Veil and Radiant as separate from Shallan, isn't he following her cues on that front? She acts as if they are different people to Adolin, and he goes along with that. It's a function of how she was trying so hard to maintain the arranged marriage in WoR. She wasn't trying nearly so hard with Kaladin.

Quote

Adolin is saying the right things and doing the wrong things, because by handling Veil as a different person, he confirms Shallan's own perception of her problem and forces her to hold onto her masks, because he is also making clear, that he isn't interested in anything Veil represents,

Isn't that going a bit far though? Yes, he said he wasn't going to be intimate with her, but it's not like he completely rejected her, or am I not remembering something?

 

[Guest]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

Regarding Adolin treating Veil and Radiant as separate from Shallan, isn't he following her cues on that front? She acts as if they are different people to Adolin, and he goes along with that. It's a function of how she was trying so hard to maintain the arranged marriage in WoR. She wasn't trying nearly so hard with Kaladin.

I'm not blaming him. Not at all. Like I said, "How could he?" I just wanted to make clear, that he doesn't understand her problems. Exactly because he is just following her cues. People are trying to make me believe, that Adolin has some deeper understanding of her issue and that is why he is better for her, but it just isn't true.

2 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Yes, he said he wasn't going to be intimate with her, but it's not like he completely rejected her, or am I not remembering something?

They are drinking buddies... The epitome of a "hey you're pretty cool to have a few drinks with, but you're not really my friend,sorry" relationship.