[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Actually that's one of the things I love about it. In previous assumption, Kaladin was aligned to Dalinar, who was definitely hovering around. I don't think we have such evidence for Navani, she seems to have taken all this in a much healthier manner. 

Navani also wasn’t the catalyst for the end of the Dalinar/Evi marriage, so I like this symmetry as we won’t have to read too much more of the “triangle” part. I’m very much hoping Kaladin does his own thing, and Shallan(/Dalinar) can cause the destruction of her own marriage. Oh, I also am fervently hoping Adolin doesn’t die. I would also be extremely disappointed if the reason for his death is even partly to break up his relationship with Shallan...

[sylian]

I have seen the analogy the very same way, it just doesn't fit the other way around. And I don't have any issues with seeing Shallan and Kaladin find each other after, lets say, 10-15 years when both of them are much more mature and hopefully dealt with their issues. However I don't have the feeing that Shallan will be able to deal with her issues at all. I am more inclined to think that she might at some point sacrifice herself for the greater good with or without achieving inner peace.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Adolin doesn't want her "stuck" as she is, he wants her to be the person he sees within her - ie the mask she wears much of the time he is around her. Evi is convinced that Dalinar is better than he appears. He isn't. Dalinar in his flashbacks is a monster - you can't even say it was because of the Thrill because he himself says that he has to take responsibility because he chose to embrace it. Shallan is not the person Adolin sees. She is much worse than he currently knows. Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child. The reflections are worth considering.

Mind. Blown.

Thank you so much for making the last minutes of my workday better. I would upvote, but sadly I'm out of them for today. So have an imaginary one.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I would upvote, but sadly I'm out of them for today. So have an imaginary one.

Wooo! The best kind

Its ok, I'm not here for the upvotes (tho I'll take any people give me obviously) I'm here for the craft. Anyway, glad to make your day better - to be fair, I probably wouldn't have gone there if you hadn't started me off so I suppose I should consider you my muse!

I was thinking more about this idea of Evi/Dalinar being a better model going forward (I'm going to call this the @DimChatz theory for the time being until DimChatz gets round to naming it for themselves

I had a quick look at the word "momentum" which is a word heavily associated with Dalinar throughout OB but also is implied (if not directly used) about him in WoR and tWoK. Now there are loads of uses of it being linked with Dalinar, but it used a coupke of times for other people. 

For Szeth and Kaladin, momentum is used twice each. For Szeth, both times the word is used to describe someone else. For Kaladin, once he turns a boulder's momentum around, and another he loses his own. Unlike Dalinar, we do not see either of these characters continue along a path because of their momentum.

However, Shallan has "momentum" when she is searching for Adolin at the end to tell him she chooses him. She specifically thinks  "momentum could be a powerful thing",

Now I know I'm grasping but I love looking for these kinds of patterns and this is one that was easy to do quickly - I have work I should be doing. My point here is that Dalinar thought (and a certain extent still thinks) that momentum is a virtue in its own right - that having it meant that you had the right to continue as long as no-one could stop you. Shallan thinks this too at the end. I don't know how much this has to do with the presence of Nergaoul - and the after effects of being near him. Szeth and Kaladin in contrast, use momentum as a tool, briefly, and often apply it to others rather than themselves. 

I think this is important somewhere. Given how often Kaladin flies/falls and therefore must have speed and direction (ie momentum) why is it not used to apply to him? Given how carefully BS chose his words for Mistborn, I would not be surprised if he is hinting here. It doesn't automatically support the theory - or indeed support any conclusions regarding how Shallan's momentum at that point might carry her going forward, but I still thought it was interesting.

[Egomere]

After having thought a little more about this theory and seeing the other replies that slightly expand it I am very much loving it and it's potential.

And seriously I don't think Shallan needs to kill Adolin - it's a potential mirror E / D / N not an exact duplicate...

It couldbe something just like Veil taking control of the mouth at a few inopportune times to stay something sarky and demeaning to Adolin about his character / or coming out in a fight between Shallan and Adolin - and then a 'veil' comment comes out in one of those 'oh god i really didn't mean that moments' - but in fact you had and X had been bothering you and really got you before exploding due to having ignored it until frustration wins and you deliberatly say whatever will hurt the most (which I can see Shallan doing but blaming it on Veil. - This could happen a lot of times in the year timesink.

Add in

29 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child.

And we got some really potential conflict and intrigue.

[Nef]

I, like others, love @DimChatz's theory, just thought I would share some personal thoughts relating to the theory.

Firstly, if a divorce scenario was to occur (not sure if it even exists in Alethi culture) I think it would have to be Adolin that instigates because he see that Shallan prefers Kaladin and is selfless enough to sacrifice his own happiness for that of Shallan's. I just don't see a compelling scenario where Shallan can't stand Adolin to the point where she seeks divorce; my impression is that divorce is not really seen as an option in Alethi culture so I can see Shalln sticking it out despite been unsatisfied deep down. On the other hand it works for me from a narrative sense if Adolin is the party more to drastically break societal norms and seek divorce. He ends up alone but at least he comes out of the situation looking cool. EDIT: I can also imagine the Veil aspect of Shallan not letting anything get in the way, so that's another angle.

That said the idea of navigating through a groundbreaking divorce in the storyline doesn't sound compelling to me (although BS could probably make it work). It hurts to comprehend but I think BS could write a break up of Shallan/Adolin through tragic circumstances with a lot of impact despite it mirroring the Gavilar/Navani relationship and I think this is the more likely scenario.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Nef

[Info_Drone-0451]

13 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

(I'm going to call this the @DimChatz theory for the time being until DimChatz gets round to naming it for themselves

Wait I have to come up with a name?! Oh, dear, I'm terrible at naming things...

I'm open to suggestions. Actually, I think we should all come up with a name as it belongs not only to me but to all who'd like to support and embrace it.

I suggest the Similar Triangles Theory for the Stormlight Archive [Two triangles are Similar if the only difference is size (and possibly the need to turn or flip one around)]. Told you I'm terrible at naming stuff.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, DimChatz said:

I suggest the Similar Triangles Theory for Stormlight Archives (Two triangles are Similar if the only difference is size (and possibly the need to turn or flip one around).

Wait... Stormlight plus maths? I'm in!

[Darvys]

 

51 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Actually that's one of the things I love about it. In previous assumption, Kaladin was aligned to Dalinar, who was definitely hovering around. I don't think we have such evidence for Navani, she seems to have taken all this in a much healthier manner. 

Hmm, hovering so much that he made her feel he hated her ? The difference here is that Dalinar still had feelings for her, and she was at least still fond of him. I take Kaladin's claim at the end of OB as a true reflection of his feelings, he's over his crush. And if, as i hope, he's out of the picture that wouldn't leave us with much of an analogy. I would cringe if the payoff of this arc is to have our two star radiants finally reach the best version of themselves and then meet at the end of the 5 book long road.

 

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Ah, but, I think, that Adolin thinks he's changing her for the better by doing what he does. He thinks, that Veil and Radiant are different entities from Shallan, so he treats them like that. He genuinely thinks, that he is doing the right thing.

48 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I agree with @SLNC's point about him thinking he's helping but I wanted to add to it. I think that Adolin believes that the Shallan he recognises is the "real Shallan" and that the others (ie Radiant and Veil) are mere illusions and that they are simply products of Shallan's imagination. Now there is some degree to which that is true because she has come up with a backstory to Veil, but she also acknowledges that Veil is simply a version of Shallan herself. Adolin doesn't want her "stuck" as she is, he wants her to be the person he sees within her - ie the mask she wears much of the time he is around her. Evi is convinced that Dalinar is better than he appears. He isn't. Dalinar in his flashbacks is a monster - you can't even say it was because of the Thrill because he himself says that he has to take responsibility because he chose to embrace it. Shallan is not the person Adolin sees. She is much worse than he currently knows. Indeed, his reaction to finding out that she killed both her parents would be an interesting mirror to how Evi reacts when she finds out Dalinar hasn't killed a child. The reflections are worth considering.

This isn't about Adolin's intention but Shallan's response to his actions, which are painful to consider further.

Evi wasn't convinced that he was better than he appeared, she was convinced he had it in him to become a better man, big difference there and it turns out she was right.

Worse than he knows ? If you mean her mental state then sure, but as a person, if anything she's far stronger than he ever dreamed. How he'll react to the reveal is anyone's guess, let's just hope it'll allow him to see that the bits and pieces of Shallan he realizes he never knew actually fit with Veil's and Radiant's character. How this realisation will play with Veil's continued swooning and Radiant's indifference (?) to him is bound to bring interesting things.

So i guess i'm ok with the Evi-Dalinar hovering faintly over the marriage, so long as Kaladin remains out of its repercussions.

@DimChatz With a name like that i'm counting on you to come up with a fitting symbol too.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Darvys

[Info_Drone-0451]

8 minutes ago, Darvys said:

With a name like that i'm counting on you to come up with a fitting symbol too.

Oh, this is getting worse. I'm terrible at drawing and graphic design, even more than naming. Maybe two intelocking triangles, to mirror the Ghostblood symbol? If that works, I don't know, I guess I'm on a roll today.

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Shallan's response to his actions, which are painful to consider further.

Well, I interpret it as, that she is lapsing. Once again, the thing, that Veil hangs out with Adolin. It is bound to let herself be more lenient and Veil might come through at inopportune times and say not so nice things to Adolin... Swoon over Kaladin... You know that stuff. 

She promised him, that she'd try to rein Veil in... Doesn't seem like that to me. Likewise, Dalinar made promises to Evi...

 

[PhineasGage]

6 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Maybe two intelocking triangles, to mirror the Ghostblood symbol

Put it on its side and it will look a bit like the double eye/hourglass thing for the knights radiant.

15 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Evi wasn't convinced that he was better than he appeared, she was convinced he had it in him to become a better man, big difference there and it turns out she was right.

She was technically only right that he could grow into a better man - that was what Cultivation could see, and even she was worried that she was allowing Dalinar to truly become Odium's. I think BS wants to make it clear that there is no set destiny for people on Roshar - the books make it clear that people have free will and can choose to act (or not). Dalinar had chosen to act in ways that allowed him to always access the Thrill. Evi believed he didn't need it, and she was right because no-one on Roshar needs it. It is similar to the way Teft becomes addicted to firemoss - not identical mind you because firemoss likely has true physical dependency element, but Dalinar was, essentially addicted to the Thrill. Despite everything, Dalinar continued to make bad choice after bad choice and feed the Thrill, rather than choose not to. I believe that all the characters - even Sadeas, Amaram, and Moash had it in them to be better men - but they chose not to be. 

Each book has had a theme running through it. Oathbringer's was definitely one of choice and choosing to take responsibility. It is a theme that has been covered in both previous books too but it was hammered home hard in OB. 

[Info_Drone-0451]

48 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Put it on its side and it will look a bit like the double eye/hourglass thing for the knights radiant.

Yes! But I'm afraid this will require someone with a better skill in the visual arts, because my meagre MS Paint certainly can't do it justice.

I lust made an attempt and, sure enough, it's awful... It looks like a weirdly coloured bow-tie.

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Nef said:

Firstly, if a divorce scenario was to occur (not sure if it even exists in Alethi culture) I think it would have to be Adolin that instigates because he see that Shallan prefers Kaladin and is selfless enough to sacrifice his own happiness for that of Shallan's

I think this is the most likely scenario for their relationship deteriorating. Adolin, after all, has already called her out on making doe eyes at Kaladin, and has noticed Kaladin's interest in her as well. How long do you think he'll last being #3 in his own marriage? 

Frankly, it's Adolin that I'm most disappointed in. He knew what was up and chose to marry Shallan anyway. He called it, correctly, but then let Shallan essentially bully him into getting married. He knew that he had no place in that relationship, and Shallan really didn't do anything to contradict what he said, only praising Adolin's qualities, not dismissing Kaladin's appeal.

If Adolin were smarter about relationships, he would be the one to put off the marriage. However, if Adolin were smarter about relationships, he'd long since be married, or would have never agreed to the causal in the first place. Sadly, one thing we know to be true is that Adolin is a dummy when it comes to women.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Well, I think that Shallan will continue to ridicule Kaladin as Dalinar attempted to freeze out Navani, giving the wrong message (That he hated her.)

Ah, that already started btw. She's wayy more abrasive to him in OB, except when Veil seeps through.

[PhineasGage]

22 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

It looks like a weirdly coloured bow-tie.

Excellent! Make it your profile pic

I'd love to help but honestly I can;t even draw a stick, let alone stick men.

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Frankly, it's Adolin that I'm most disappointed in. He knew what was up and chose to marry Shallan anyway. He called it, correctly, but then let Shallan essentially bully him into getting married. He knew that he had no place in that relationship, and Shallan really didn't do anything to contradict what he said, only praising Adolin's qualities, not dismissing Kaladin's appeal.

If Adolin were smarter about relationships, he would be the one to put off the marriage. However, if Adolin were smarter about relationships, he'd long since be married, or would have never agreed to the causal in the first place. Sadly, one thing we know to be true is that Adolin is a dummy when it comes to women.

So I agree with you that Adolin is hopeless with women, but I honestly don't blame him for going along with Shallan.  I think he has been ensnared by the idea of marriage and love and all that malarky, and he found a woman that seemed to really fit. Now regardless of how people feel about Shallan's choice, she has spent a great deal of time around Adolin trying to be the perfect woman for him. It is one of the reasons she wants to hide Veil from him - she wants to keep up the illusion that she is only the "perfect Shallan". 

Adolin is essentially in love with the idea of being in love - he may also love Shallan, but he has been looking to get a stable relationship for a while - it was why he agreed to the causal in the first place - he admits as much to Kaladin. I think he likes the idea of settling down. Being married will allow him to continue doing the things he likes - duelling, wine, fashion, without the requirement to find a woman to marry.

It is hardly surprising he gets caught up in the moment because he genuinely likes (I am unclear that it is definitely love - I personally thinks it is too soon) Shallan - and she is being particularly pushy at that moment. He hears what he wants to hear - ie the praise for Adolin and misses the implication that there was no denunciation of Kaladin. She has the momentum and he is happy to be pushed along with it - he is used to having someone else being the driving force in his life - previously it was Dalinar, now it is Shallan.

[AubreyWrites]

8 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So I agree that Adolin/Shallan mirrors Gavilar/Navani but I feel that Kaladin is like Dalinar as he is now, not as he was when he was younger. Kaladin won't go dark like Dalinar did. However, Adolin might. Adolin is "not the man [Dalinar] thought he was". Dalinar previously believed that Adolin was "a better man than [Dalinar] was". Now he probably still believes that - with good reason, but he can see Adolin's flaws.

Navani and Gavilar did not have the happiest of marriages, but it is unclear what the issues were. I don't think that there was a lack of affection however, given the Ketek she wrote for Gavilar's funeral;

"You, always about dreams. My soul weeps. Farewell, weeping soul. My dreams... about, always, You."

I suspect that she cared but perhaps he was distant - particularly towards the end. I interpret this ketek as being about the fact that Gavilar had always had dreams and that they had always consumed him, leaving little room or time for affection for his wife. Now, given Shallan's position as a KR, and also a tendency to 'dream big' as well as a cluster of mental health problems, Adolin might also end up feeling somewhat unloved. This might drive him dark like his father before him.

Kaladin, on the other hand, may mirror Dalinar's tendency to stay away from Navani - even to the point where she believed he "hated" her - Shallan may end up feeling like Navani did. On top of that, Adolin and Kaladin have a relationship that will likely mirror the relationship between Dalinar and Gavilar. Interestingly, Renarin and Adolin, despite being brothers, do not echo this relationship in the same way because Adolin has (at least until recently) felt sorry for Renarin. That is not something that either Gavilar or Dalinar seem to have felt for the other. Kaladin and Adolin have a relationship of equals and mutual respect - and whilst they have different skills, those skills complement one another.

 

So much this - parallels my thoughts almost exactly

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

. I think he likes the idea of settling down. Being married will allow him to continue doing the things he likes - duelling, wine, fashion, without the requirement to find a woman to marry.

Very much like how Dalinar thinks of Evi, then. Sure, he grows fond of her, but his initial decision is one of duty and to get it out of the way.

[AubreyWrites]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I understand people wanting Kaladin to be free of Shallan given that she is a total mess at the moment. But, personally, I really liked her in WoR. I think she not only has an interesting arc, but that she is genuinely likeable when she isn't playing a part. I can relate to her being torn between the different choices life is offering her. I like how she makes mistakes and tries to learn from. I also like that she is interested in learning. 

I must admit I liked her less in OB except when she is Veil - the character that, to me, aside from the bookishness, is the most like the Shallan we see in WoR. I feel that once she starts acknowledging and understanding her situation and starts healing, she'll be in a much better place for a romantic relationship - whoever it is with. Now, though? Well she's a "nightmare dressed like a daydream" (because apparently I am wiling to admit my dirty dirty secret of really liking that Taylor Swift song...)

I agree- I really liked her arc in WoR we really saw her start to come into her own,especially after separation from Jasnah. Even though she is still a mess inside she has purpose and direction...OB not so much.

I'm gonna hop on that Taylor Swift wagon with you and agree it's a perfect analogy!

[Info_Drone-0451]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Ah, that already started btw. She's wayy more abrasive to him in OB, except when Veil seeps through.

That's why I said that she'll continue to ridicule him. Initially I thought it might be residual resentment for Helaran's death or Shallan being Shallan but I realized it might point to something else.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Excellent! Make it your profile pic

Nope I buried it... deep... both versions of it. I won't break today's good streak and I'd never subject you guys to my barely existant artistic skill. Although the longer I look at it,  it resembles abstract art, really cheap and easy art done by an average 12 year-old on a shakey desk, but it's vague enough to make for an unassuming avatar. And it looks more like an hourglass now than a bow tie...

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by DimChatz

[AubreyWrites]

3 hours ago, DimChatz said:

  3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

(I'm going to call this the @DimChatz theory for the time being until DimChatz gets round to naming it for themselves

 

3 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Wait I have to come up with a name?! Oh, dear, I'm terrible at naming things...

I'm open to suggestions. Actually, I think we should all come up with a name as it belongs not only to me but to all who'd like to support and embrace it.

I suggest the Similar Triangles Theory for the Stormlight Archive [Two triangles are Similar if the only difference is size (and possibly the need to turn or flip one around)]. Told you I'm terrible at naming stuff.

 

Super like this Theory. And because I'm really good on procrastinating on the stuff I'm ACTUALLY  supposed to be doing, I played around with letters and came up with a couple but this is my favorite. 

How about the KASDEN Mirror?

Kaladin,Adolin,Shallan,/Dalinar, Evi,Navani. The word kasden mirrors back on itself too if you fold it in half so the letters land on their respective mirroring characters 

just my suggestion to throw out there! 

The random things one does to keep the brain active when rocking babies to sleep...

[Info_Drone-0451]

24 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

KASDEN Mirror

Yes! I like it. Much more thematic and mysterious than mine!

[GoddessIMHO]

Well, it just now occurred to me: what does a Bondsmith do? He unites things. Who has 3 things that need to be united? Shallan!

[straits]

I don't see a problem with taking the conclusion of the love "triangle" at the end of OB at its face value. Shallan and Adolin enter a mariage of love, mutual support and some political value, and Kaladin gets the emotional closure he needs. For Kaladin in particular, this is definitely the healthiest outcome.

Having said that, the emotional turmoil Shallan went through, her continued exacerbation of the divide between her personalities, and Adolin's enabling of that, hints at future disasters. Her projection of some kind of "bad boy" persona on Kaladin is more a reflection of what she's (sometimes) attracted to, than a fair description of Kaladin's driven and obsessive nature, especially when she concluded that Veil has a terrible taste in men. It gives me the impression that she's mentally smearing Kaladin to convince herself that he's a bad choice. This is mostly a bad thing for her, because she's more than intelligent enough to be better than that.

There are good indicators that the triangle could be finished, but then again. given Sanderson's ostensible understanding of how much a person can change, the romance could resurface after a couple of books.

[Egomere]

18 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Well, it just now occurred to me: what does a Bondsmith do? He unites things. Who has 3 things that need to be united? Shallan!

I just had a horrible vision reading that of Dalinar becoming one of those 'healing preachers' America seems so fond of:

Standing on a stage in front of the Alethi nobles with Shallan screaming "And NOW BY the POWAH of UNITY be healed afflicted one", and then slapping Shallan in the head to 'force the three personalities into one'. Whilst muttering about how Unity grants him the power and by his grace she say have the Veil lifted from her mind...

hmmm I think I'm going to go awol for while to let my embarresment wear off.