[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Matt Snow]

33 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree - his sense of honour wouldn't let him deliberately ad to any conflict between Shallan and Adolin. If Kaladin does cause conflict between the newlyweds, he will likely do so by accident - either by simply being him of because Shallan is a hot mess and doesn't actually let go of her musings over him.

Awesome, I thought pretty much the same thing. I was just reading this thread and everyone was acting like that subplot had reached it's endpoint., made me start to thinking I had missed something when I read the book.

[Harbour]

Also casted Windrunner illusion on Adolin. Yeh, sure, Shallan, ability to fly doesnt matter at all. At all, you made it crystal clear.

[mariapapadia]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Firstly - noooo don't leave! also, the fact that we are getting sucked in by this forum and thread.... does that make us the void? Are we voidbringers???

Secondly, thank you for sharing. It was very interesting to see your side of the story. I am the depressive one in my relationship and it is really important to be able to see the other person's perspective. In my experience of depression, I ended up feeling guilty for things that weren't my fault, but lost sight of the things I could control and didn't feel appropriately guilty for them. Luckily, my SO and I figured out how to be  communicative so he knows that he is not responsible for my mood changes, and I know that he isn't putting pressure on me to be "well" for the sake of the relationship - it takes a huge amount of pressure off us both.  You said something about learning to love yourself, and I think it is one of the most important things I've read on this forum. 

I agree - although it is ok to feel lighter when you are with the one you love, it isnt right to rely on them for it and you need to find ways to feel lighter without them as well.

So I disagree a little here. Kaladin is stepping back - but we saw him do almost the same thing at the end of WoR. Kaladin has made his choice here sure, but there are 2 other people in this mess and they have agency of their own. If Shallan magically ends up single and healthy of mind, do we really think Kaladin isn't going to go there?

 

Hahaha ! Thank you ! Fortunately or unfortunately, I am still in withdrawl from all the emotion and anticipation, I built in me waiting for Oathbringer, so I still need my daily Shard dose 

I am sorry to hear about your depression. It's hard to get out of that dark place, but I'm happy you managed to find a balance with someone and it works for you  Every relationship and experience is different and unique to those people, but there are always some lessons and general things you could draw out or summarize. It often happened in my case, that my ex(s) was feeling guilty for things he couldn't control or a burden, because I was trying to pull everything together on my own or couldn't be there for me when I needed it and that always ended up in a spiral where he blamed himself, then I would feel guilty for him feeling bad and so on. But he was oblivious to things that actually happened as a result of his actions. It takes a lot of selfawareness to function in a relationship like that. It's a neverending cycle , this is why i think it depends so much on the other person accepting they deserve to be loved and cared for

In my experience a person who stuggles with long time depression, mood swings or has low self esteem issues, ends up being really vulnerable and a lot of their feelings intensify. Sometimes that allows one to create a connection on a deeper lever or makes them really unstable in some situations. In any case that requires a lot of patience and comitmment from a partner. And there is no better way to give back or greater joy for someone that truly loves you than see that you love and actively take care of yourself. As cheesy and cliche as it sounds " we recieve the love we think we deserve", whether that is in a romantic relationship or not. Anyway.. I am blabbing.. 

I don't know at this point I won't have any other expectations when it comes to romances in books. It's too emotionally draining to stress about fictional character's love life  (Who am I kidding ? I am already waiting for Lift and Gawx ship to be built  ) 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Arch]

Rereading that interlude with ardent Ellista (the one who loves love-triangles) is a lot funnier, after participating in this discussion. I'm actually willing to believe that whole interlude is a nod from Sanderson because he knows how seriously some us would take this, lol.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Arch

[Andy92]

Took me a week to read this book. Would come to the website and find that this is the 17 page thread. 

I actually thought it was kind of boring. I thought for a while Shallan might physically split into multiple people (like some weird Lightweaving savant thing, leaving Shallan for Adolin and Veil for Kaladin). But as the book progressed, there never was a moment that actually led me to believe that her and Kaladin would end up together. A lot of light teases with no real substance to it. 

[shawnhargreaves]

Wow, what an awesome (not to mention lengthy) thread!  I'm struggling to avoid just repeating points that have already been worded better by others.

I, along with it seems many others, felt unsatisfied with how these relationships were left at the end of OB.  Not because I particularly wanted things to go one way or the other, but because it felt way too rushed.  Shallan has a LOT of unresolved issues, not least among which is the Helaran reveal, which she pushed down, told herself not to think about, and then never brought back out again.  She's leaping into marriage in the hope that Adolin will stabilize her, but I'm a firm believer that marrying someone in order to fix yourself works just about as well as having a baby in order to fix a marriage does (i.e. it doesn't work at all).  A good relationship can help you grow and improve, but you need to get yourself more or less into a healthy place before embarking on one.  I just don't think Shallan is there yet, and the hasty way she made this decision does not give me confidence for the future.

So what's going to come next?

Maybe this plot line is finished, in which case I'll be a little disappointed in Brandon as a writer.  Surely not???!

Perhaps the love triangle tension and hinting will continue without really going anywhere, in which case I'll be REALLY disappointed.  I don't expect this though.

Things might get really dark as Shallan realizes she made a mistake, leading to her final truth being something like "I made the wrong choice and don't love my husband any more".  This would be unlike anything Brandon has done before, but it would be interesting and I would enjoy reading it.

From a different writer, I'd be thinking maybe Shallan and Adolin stay happily married while Veil has an affair with Kaladin.  Not Brandon though.

But here's my call: Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin is a parallel to Navani/Gavilar/Dalinar.  Because Roshar and symmetry.  A literal repeat would involve Kaladin going to an increasingly dark place, Adolin getting assassinated somewhere around the end of book 5, Kaladin pulling things back together during the second arc, etc etc.  But true symmetry is about mirroring, not copying.  I'm not sure exactly what a mirror of that previous plotline would look like, but that's where I think this is going.  In which case it's not over yet.

One thing I did really like about this triangle is that it didn't really turn out to be a triangle in the traditional sense.  They're all just nice people, and all three have strong friendships aside from the romantic aspect.  I appreciated that Adolin and Kaladin weren't prancing around being macho at each other, and that Kaladin and Shallan are clearly both committed to remaining close friends who support each other in important ways.  There aren't enough books in which a man and woman are friends, feel attraction, it doesn't work out, but they stay friends.

Edited November 22, 2017 by shawnhargreaves

[Dragos]

There is no way that Shallan gets her happy enging in book 3 in a 5 books series. That will meen  no more progres for her from now on.

From what we have seen in this series so far Radiants need to solve some kind of dilemma to advace in their oaths:

-Shallan- to recognize a truth about herself: 2 I'm a killer, I killed my father, 3 I killed my mother and caused the destruction of my family; 4......don't know, someting even more important then 2 and 3 maybe something like " i am a lie -everything I showed since I was a kid were just faces who helped me cope the world" Shallan the nice, smart, jollyful daughter was enough until  she needed to become something else: a spy so she created Veil, then a radiant so she created Radiant, but none of them are real just faces to hide the real self.

Shallan can not achieve 4 as long as there is something that stabilizes her as it is now, with Shallam as the main personality and the other 2 as secondary. Adolin is the easy choice that gives her stability, comfort, so she does not have to analyze even more serious truths about herself, he makes her happy with the face that she is now.  Even if the 4 truth is difrent from what i belive,Shalan will still have to be placed in a very difficult situation to admit the next truth- I do not see how it is possible as long as she is happily married with Adolin. So he will have to be removed.  Adolin's death, perhaps sacrificing to protect her, will make her lose control again and be forced to think who she is without him. And no divorce or some other form of separation it will not be enough

-Kaladin- a moral dilema:2 to choose to protect, 3 to choose to protect those he hates, 4...... I do not know, but it's probably something conected to " not leting his failures to keep protecting those that are alive" or maybe " to let others sacrifice themselves for the things they believe in and not protect them"- something harder then 2 or 3. 

And BS has begun to put him in such situations in OB (humans/parshendi, the 2 grups Kaladin traind facing eachother....) but they were not strong enough,  it will be necessary for someone very important to him to sacrifice and lose hi life, like his best friend, his only real friend.

That's why I think Adolin will die in the future book, maybe after he succeeds in reviving the sword and saving friends with her at a critical time. That does not mean that Adolin must be removed to make room for a relationship between Shallan and Kalladin, but that he neded to become important for bouth of them so his death will be a critical moment in there evolution to full Radiants- part of there "journy".( and I can see BS doing this to Adolin, hi is just a secondary caracter, placed in the story to suport others, the most important secondary caracter, but I think this is also intended for his death to have a stronger impact). It does not necessarily have to be a romantic relationship between Shallan and Kaladin after his death.

That's just my opinion about how the story will evolve in the future, I might be mistaken, and Brandon will let the marriage work, Sallan to heal better with Adolin by her side and tell the rest of her  truths happy and with smile on her lips, but the story has not been so until now. Unfortunately I think Brandon will get our heroes to go through a lot more pain until the end of the series.

And Dalinar will be afected by his death to.  I don't think there is another caracter whose death will have so much personal impact on the rest (Dalinar, Shalln or Kaladin deaths will create huge problems but not so big emotioal responses from others as Adolin's will)

[AubreyWrites]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I mean, based on whats been written here, we all actually loved the book as a whole, we love the characters and we love Stormlight and other cosmere novels in general. We aren't happy with a single facet of it and have spent... 16 pages telling each other so

I totally agree- I was just curious if he had ever addressed this question at some point. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

Hello everyone, I believe this is my first major post. I'm afraid it might be rather long.

I am glad I am not alone in believing that this romance arc was somewhat mishandled. My main issue is that I can't tell if it is or isn't intentional. I guess this post is more about Brandon as a writer in general. He has admitted that there is a lot if unconscious bias in the Cosmere. That makes sense, however something that may be important to note that for all the arranged marriages in the writing, Brandon didn't actually have one, unless you count a friend setting up a blind date as an "arranged marriage". So I don't know what that says about the fact that most arranged marriages in his books magically work out.

Another thing of note is that Shadolin is not the most disturbing ship in the Cosmere. Something I believe to be understated is that Siri, a 16 year old girl, ended up being made a glorified concubine for a 50-year old man who goes from having the mind of a 10-year old to the mind of about an 22-23 year old, and they end up with a perfectly happy and healthy relationship. Laral, though, is an odd case. My impression of her is that a "lie back and think of England" mentality in her as a girl eventually developed into full blown Stockholm Syndrome. But that's assuming it was meant to be taken negatively. It is entirely possible that that relationship is meant to be taken as an arranged marriage working out perfectly. If it is the former, it is an example of writing with great nuance and subtlety. If it's the latter though, then I worry and that sort of thing happening more would make continuing to read the Cosmere difficult.

Moving on from that, there is also another thing that I don't think has been given enough importance, and I'm kinda peeved that @Arch mentioned this first cuz I been thinking along those lines for a while. The interlude with Ellista, the ardent reading romance novels. Not only is the conversation between her and her colleague mirror nearly word for word on the subject of shipping Shalladin vs Shadolin, the story she's reading has striking similarities as well. To refresh those who don't remember, she is reading a novel where a girl is in a triangle between Brightlord Vadam, a landholding brightlord to whom she has been betrothed, who is a man to provide sustenance and stability, and Brightlord Sterling, a simple, yet passionate man who is more grandstanding and emotional. The amusing thing is that you can plausibly paint Adolin and Kalladin as either of the two fictional men. If it was anyone else, I would dismiss it as amusing commentary. But to borrow the words of someone upthread, this is Brandon "I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages" Sanderson. I refuse to accept that something with such striking similarities was unintentional.

The final thing is slightly off-topic, but the interlude mentions the sequel of Ellista's book being a girl choosing between a "strapping Naval officer, a Thaylen Banker and the King's Wit". Now, Honour and being in the military go seemingly hand in hand, Odium was described as a "loathsome, crafty and dangerous individual" which pretty well sounds bankery to me, and Hoid is Hoid. The idea of Cultivation having to choose between Tanavast, Rayse and Hoid seems hilarious to me. It's probably just me being weird and making a connection that doesn't exist, but don't deny that that might have been fun to see.

I am eager to see if anyone has any thoughts on my post. Sorry if I rambled.

[shawnhargreaves]

12 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

I totally agree- I was just curious if he had ever addressed this question at some point. 

Isn't the first half of the Wit epilogue pretty much exactly Brandon's answer to this thread?

[AubreyWrites]

16 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

31 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

 

Isn't the first half of the Wit epilogue pretty much exactly Brandon's answer to this thread?

Lol you are so right...I had to go back and read it again....feeling kind of stupid right now

[Greywatch]

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I disagree - Shallan was in a relatively good place (for Shallan) in the chasms. Kaladin has literally just killed Syl. It doesnt get much lower. He doesn't rise again until much later. To me, Shallan is much healthier at this point than she is by the end of OB. She has accepted the death of her father much more easily than that of her mother - she can push things aside, but, crucially, she can also bring it out again to examine her feelings and start resolving them. She is not doing this in OB. The ability to admit to another person the fact that she killed Lin is a huge deal. It means she has accepted it into herself, despite the pain it brings.

The only difference between Shallan in WoR and OB is that she was actually starting to face her trauma. In WoR, on the surface it seems healthier, but her in the first two books is textbook denial. She dissociates often - not in the flashbacks, in current reality - totally unable to accept that she was dealing with something terrible. She says it to Kaladin, but in her own POV, she doesn't reflect or deal with it at all, in comparison to Kaladin's constant self-reflection. In OB, she was starting to actually face her past down and it really, really hurt her so much that we started to get a lot of danger signals with Veil and Radiant and her attitude towards her personas - but she was not healthy or whole in WoR. She's only acting the way she is in WoR is because she's so perfectly denied that anything's wrong, even when she can say the words, and I cannot agree that it was healthy, or good, or well, or any positive synonym. 

Kaladin was certainly not in a good place for those couple days, no - but the trend of his healing was already much further along. He was already starting to confront his own issues and the struggle over his oaths which almost killed Syl was also what led him directly to his next oath and the next step of his healing. He spent a little time in darkness facing the next difficult step in his journey where he wanted to kill someone because he hated them, and he was already strong enough to move on from it. He made oaths and started to change himself. Shallan is not dealing with her issues; she's barely able to admit it and she's almost tailspinning.

I am looking at the overall trend of their journeys, and I think even at the end of OB, Kaladin is much farther ahead in his healing, even though Shallan has made some progress.

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Um, firstly, it is clear that Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other - one example (of many) is that they both take major leaps at almost identical times - eg the way they both grow on confidence on the same night when Shallan breaks into Amaram's manor and Kaladin flies out of the chasms. Storms, they both even think about killing him! I also don't think she has to imagine what he went though. He told her his whole story (except for killing Helaran - and that was actually something he missed by mistake) during the hihstorm when they were in the chasms.Most importantly, she is much more patronising to Adolin - I particularly draw your attention to the line "That was an insult, dear" that she says only a few pages before she falls int the chasm.

To me, the chasm scene reflects more than just a relationship betwen these two. The chasms represent failure and redemption - both of these characters have fallen exceedingly badly - indeed both have killed (or mostly killed) their spren, but despite this, they have worked through the challenge of falling so far, and successfully found their way out. Of all of the KR we know, no other characters break as badly as these two have because no-one else has killed then resurrected their spren as far as we know.

All that this says to me is that they're both main characters, and for narrative reasons, main characters often have parallel decisions/feelings. Digging into it, other main/recurring characters will have parallel journeys with each other, and it doesn't mean that they're romantically intended for each other (or even romantically good for each other). Moash's story is a foil for Kaladin, dramatic irony where he follows Kaladin's path in unusually specific ways until the moment they make different decisions; Kaladin's journey in WoK is a mirror story to Dalinar's (becoming a force for honor in a place where there isn't any), etc. etc. Just because they're main characters who have closely related ups and downs doesn't indicate that kind of future for them, especially since many parallels can be found between many characters. I don't believe them being two of the main characters is a good enough reason for them to be together.

As for telling each other their whole stories, I'm glad they both did that. In a life or death situation, they end sharing things they'd never shared with another person up until then. Whether one takes that as romantic or not is personal preference; personally it has to be taken in context of the rest of the relationship, which does nothing for me. So I take this as a good step in their friendship, that they had someone to depend on while lost in a chasm, and nothing more.

Shallan telling Adolin that Kaladin was insulting him was not being patronizing to him. Adolin doesn't know he's being insulted, and better to know you're being insulted than mistakenly think someone is being nice to you when they aren't. Having been in Adolin's place, someone telling me that wasn't patronizing - it was a sign they cared enough about me to defend me. Shallan's words there is also twofold, as right before she says that line, she is angry at Kaladin for being insulting to Adolin in a way he knows Adolin won't understand. This is also a rebuke to Kaladin that she knows what he's doing.

On the other hand, Shallan constantly belittles and insults and condescends to Kaladin. She is classist, thinking nothing of using her lighteyed privilege. I don't want to go too long on this (I could write a dissertation) but a couple things. She refuses to even accept that Kaladin's life is quantifiably worse because he's a darkeyes (WoR 69); the boots scene where she literally robbed and bullied Kaladin and didn't feel the least bit bad about it until Kaladin directly confronted her later; the part where she insults Kaladin to make herself feel better (WoR chapter 70). It got to the point in WoR where I dreaded every time they had a scene together because Shallan was so consistent in directly insulting Kaladin and thinking she was hilarious, and then getting annoyed/hurt when someone disagreed that she was funny/clever. I took that dread into OB and thankfully their scenes weren't as bad as I was fearing. The fact that she thinks this is good flirting makes it even worse for me. If anyone treated a friend of mine the way Shallan treated Kaladin, I would tell them to run, especially if they're ever used the excuse "I was just making a joke".

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I disagree here too - one of the reasons she doesnt want Adolin to see Veil is because she doesn't want to apparear vulnerable to him. She has already exposed her vulnerability to Kaladin - it is why he is so amazed she is still functional. Adolin, on the other hand, allows her to be weak by enabling her dissociation. But isn't she supposed to put "Stength before weakness". I don't blame her - weakness is easier - it is easier to say "I can't do it" than to say "Even if I can't I have to try". Most importantly, of your statement, I don't think she tries to appear whole and complete to Kaladin, I think he sees her that way anyway.

I do agree that Kaladin thinks he sees her whole and complete. I also think he puts her on a pedestal way too easily. But I'm already going very, very long on my issues with Shallan and Kaladin, so I'll link a few posts that explain the whole of the issues better than me.

http://kogiopsis.tumblr.com/post/160574083724/horizonproblems-reblogged-your-post-and-added

https://whatofyouyoungprincerenarin.tumblr.com/post/164869484039/why-do-you-not-like-shallan-kaladin

https://themalhambird.tumblr.com/post/160493530367/whys-the-boots-scene-obnoxious

As for Adolin there - I absolutely cannot agree with "enabling her dissociation". One of her core struggles throughout OB is struggling to find and like herself through a mountain of self-hatred. I do not agree that someone being gentle and giving her a lot of time to be ready to deal with it is in any way enabling her. She frustrated me a lot when she refused to just face up, but in her shoes, I'd probably do the same, and I think I'd want the compassion Adolin showed her in this case.

The insistence on the matter that Shallan is only one person and she needs to admit reality that they are all her... is ignoring that healing is a process. Only one book ago was she even ready to say the words that she killed her parents, but she couldn't even think about it without falling into dissociation constantly. She divided herself into different personas to make it easier to process now that she admitted it. Even though we can recognize that Shallan was not in a good place during OB, (even a very bad place!) it was still progress on her part. While I don't know whether she will ever subsume Veil and Radiant's identities/consciousness/personalities back into her... "main"? For the moment, they are helping, and I don't think it does any good to force someone to give up a coping mechanism before they're ready just because we know it's unhealthy. For Shallan, having Veil and Radiant is giving her the safe distance it can take to self-reflect - something she has rarely done in all of Stormlight. She can think about herself using proxies and it's easier to think "I don't like that Veil thinks that" without having to make it self-hatred, ie. "I don't like that I thought that." For that reason, knowing that Veil and Radiant are here to stay (at least until SA4?), the fact that Adolin accepts them all without blinking is such a good sign that he's accepting all of Shallan - the complete version of her, all variations. By accepting all her personas, Shallan will stop thinking that she has to be someone else.

She's frequently worried about what Adolin will think because she cares. Shallan's desire for this relationship and worry about what Adolin is the strongest sign that this is something she wants.

17 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Yes but thats why her feelings about Adolin are a problem - she chooses to feel "silly" and "giddy" - single brief moments rather than choosing attachment. Now I do not think she s more attached to Kaladin than Adolin. She hasn't known him long enough either. It is not the best basis for a marriage. Its a stage everyone goes through, but marriage is based on so much more.

I have to disagree again. A person can be very attached to someone they also feel silly and giddy with. Adolin is a person where she also feels safe and comfortable. Just because their relationship is lighthearted does not make it meaningless, and they don't have to be lost in a chasm together to have a real emotional connect where they can truly know each other. 

As for having to work on their relationship, Adolin and Shallan are in an arranged marriage, and though it was hard to prove for Shallan at first, they knew they were going to be trying for a relationship before they even met. They need to work on their relationship because they are also building a friendship at the same time, and the level of emotional vulnerability they both wanted with each other required revealing some really terrible stuff to each other. It's not a typical relationship in that they weren't really dating - they were both trying to get to know each other better with the expectation that they wanted to be married to each other, which is a much different relationship than a normal dating relationship between young adults in the Western hemisphere. 

They both decided they wanted to be with each other, where Shallan was briefly tempted by her attraction to Kaladin. 

Shallan/Adolin is... not exactly my favourite ship ever - I think it would be accurate to say I don't even ship it. But imo the canonical evidence is much stronger for a healthy and happy relationship between Shallan and Adolin. What happens in SA4 and beyond? Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised or bothered either way, if they stay together or not. But OB was building the case for these two, and I guess it's a matter of preference whether one was persuaded.

[Guest]

@Greywatch

Regarding the "healing process": Healing mental problems does not work by simply being compassionate and accepting, but combining that with therapy. What Adolin is doing, in my eyes, is not healing her, not helping her find acceptance for herself, but rather making herself accept the Shallan without Radiant and Veil, without making any effort to realize how Radiant and Veil are a part of herself and not different from her. He is keeping up the illusion, that Shallan has built in her head, instead of making an effort of maybe slowly deconstructing it. Comfort and safety are all fine and dandy in the short-term, but they limit growth of Shallan into what she has to become.

Kaladin found his therapeut in Syl, I don't think Adolin can fill that role for Shallan, nor should he, because that is not the job of the spouse, but Shallan chooses him exactly because of that.

As for Shallan belittleing Kaladin: I think, that was a big point in WoR, that they found a mutual respect in each other. She stops with all of that after she knew his story.

My interpretation of it, that it is actually becoming worse again in OB is, that she is forcefully denying any sort of attraction and pushing it off to Veil, so she reverts back to the old Shallan to deal with it. Which is also why Kaladin is so confused by it.

Regarding Adolin and Shallan having shared "secrets": I HIGHLY disagree here, Adolin told her, that he killed Sadeas, that took some courage from him, but I never thought it would be a matter to Shallan.

Shallan revealed to him, that she is fragmenting herself in her head. Sure, that took some courage, but she still didn't talk with him about her past. In fact, she can't even talk with him about the Ghostbloods, she hopes Veil does.

My point is, that she is still being a Shallan for Adolin, that isn't herself. And I partly blame Adolin for it, because that is what he told her, that he wanted her to be. She isn't being emotionally vulnerable to him, she tries to be what he wants her to be. Adolin might tolerate all of her personas, but Veil, for instance, doesn't show inclination to accept Adolin. The fact, that she calls the marriage "a celebration of Shallan", makes me feel like she doesn't see herself as part of it, which translates to part of Shallan herself being sceptic, about all of that. I'm inclined to believe, that she wouldn't have married Adolin, if she weren't fractured, which does not make me think of this bein a healing process but rather stagnation.

 

[Greywatch]

There has to be some room for compassion and allowance to heal. You don't heal from trauma from being forced to immediately conform to someone else's standard of what healthy is, and I'll take a Shallan who is, in some way trying to face what she experienced, than Shallan in the previous books who was so unable to face it that she out and out pretended it didn't even happen. It's a lot of progress.

Shallan doesn't necessarily need a romantic relationship, but she does, at some point, just need someone to just accept her. She has so much anxiety in this book towards everyone about trying to be perfect, worrying that she's inadequate to every single situation she's facing. For someone she likes and cares about to accept her without condition or asking her to try to be someone else is very good for her. There's been a lot of discussion about Adolin forcing her to try and put on a persona of a perfect bride, but none of that actually came from Adolin. In the text, he's only shown a genuine desire to get to know Shallan better. Shallan's anxiety about personas fade when she realizes she can trust Adolin not to run away at the truth.

[Guest]

@Greywatch

I never said, that there shouldn't, but, tell me, what is Shallan truly facing? That she has fragmented herself? That she did before the marriage, too. I don't see how it is helping to face her true problem - her past.

I'm not trying to put the blame solely on Adolin, but by voicing a preference between the trio, he is giving her confirmation of what she is doing with her personality. A lot comes down to her interpretation though. She is trying to play the perfect bride for Adolin - because Adolin voiced a preference to this part of Shallan. I think, that this preference is going to be a big hurdle for Shallan in regards to herself accepting her personas as being a part of her and reintegrating them.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLNC

[Greywatch]

She's taking steps to face her past, bit by bit, with or without Adolin. And I honestly, truly can't see how the compassionate support of one person is undoing the work she's already done, or halting the progress she's starting to make. Shallan fracturing herself was happening as a result of her admitting the truth of her past, which had nothing to do with either Adolin or Kaladin. Her deciding to be with Adolin is related but separate from her relationship with her trauma, and I think it's unfair to the extreme to say that because Adolin likes Shallan that he's destroying her mental health. He isn't, not all kindness is coddling, and Shallan does need to keep growing up and get with the program, but she also does a little gentleness. 

By the logic of Shallan's mental health unraveling because Adolin showed a preference by a certain way that Shallan presented herself, then it follows that any man Shallan was attracted to and chose to be with would also do the same. Therefore, she should never be in a romantic relationship? It doesn't follow. There's an argument to be made that she should be more mentally healthy before she enters any relationship, but Adolin is doing pretty well.

[Guest]

I'm not saying it is unraveling, but stagnating.

Adolin loves a part of Shallan, but not the whole picture. His attitude towards Veil cements that.

Shallan needs a helping hand to grow up. I never said, that the support Adolin gives her is bad, but Shallan is so good at lying to herself, that she needs to be reminded, that there is more to her than just the Shallan she shows Adolin. Adolin can support her, but not help her, because he doesn't understand her problem. He is just going with the flow. I don't blame him for it, but I fear for Shallan because of it.

[Greywatch]

I think that'll have to be the point where we leave it, because I simply don't think that's what's happening - either for Shallan's mental health, or how Adolin is contributing. I don't think Adolin does fully understand what he's going through, but he's been given the opportunity to try and he is. I don't think anyone can help her in the way you're talking about, and someone's romantic partner should be a support but not their therapist. Sometimes support is all you can do, and I think it's all anyone in the SA books could offer Shallan right now while she works through it. 

(I do think she needs a therapist, absolutely, but I'm not sure that exists on Roshar the way we think of it. )

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

She has so much anxiety in this book towards everyone about trying to be perfect, worrying that she's inadequate to every single situation she's facing.

Not to Kaladin. Because he already knows, that she is not perfect and not in a poetic way like Adolin does ("eventhough the vase is cracked, it only shows what is inside." Adolin, dear, I'm not sure, you cound handle what is inside...), but he can truly relate and understand what is going on with her past. His only fault is, that he doesn't see the different personas Shallan is making up, because he already knows those sides of her and doesn't suspect her for it.

When they conversate she acts extremely natural to him. Getting excited to tell him about her discoveries, banter a bit. She even doesn't shy back, when he brings up the chasm again.

The only times, when she acts very abrasive to him is when Adolin is around.

Edited November 22, 2017 by SLNC

[DeployParachute]

Been doing some rereading, and just going to leave this little nugget here:

 

Spoiler

   I can be anyone, Shallan thought, noticing a few joyspren blowing past, like a swirl of blue leaves.  I can become anything.  Adolin deserved someone far better than her.  Could she...become that someone? Craft for him the perfect bride, a woman that looked and acted as befitted Adolin Kholin?

   It wouldn't be her.  The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess.  She already put a face over that for him.  Why not go a few steps farther?  Radiant ... Radiant could be his perfect bride, and she did like him.

   The thought made Shallan feel cold inside

Sanderson, Brandon. “Chapter 77: Stormshelter.” Oathbringer, Kindle ed., Tor Fantasy, 2017, p. 760.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

She already put a face over that for him. 

And Adolin fell in love with that face. This marriage is going to be such a roadblock in her progression...

[PhineasGage]

Morning all! Catch up time for Phin

7 hours ago, Matt Snow said:

Awesome, I thought pretty much the same thing. I was just reading this thread and everyone was acting like that subplot had reached it's endpoint.

I think , in a way it has. This was never going to be a traditional triangle (a la Twilight) because BS knows how to write engaging characters. OB gave us the "will they? won't they?" aspects of the triangle but in an unusual way. Adolin and Kaladin have no conflict with each other because they respect and like each other too much. The conflict arises solely within Shallan and I personally see no evidence that she has resolved her issues well enough to completely stop doing that. She is married now however so I do think there will be less Shallan/Kaladin interaction because he will likely stay away - much like Dalinar stayed away from Navani after she married Gavilar. 

6 hours ago, Harbour said:

Yeh, sure, Shallan, ability to fly doesnt matter at all. At all, you made it crystal clear.

I genuinely lol'ed at this.

6 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

And there is no better way to give back or greater joy for someone that truly loves you than see that you love and actively take care of yourself.

My SO said exactly this to me when my depression was at its worst. It was probably the first moment in years that I felt like it was ok not to feel guilty about being so rubbish. That I could forgive myself for having stumbled. It was a major turning point for me. He didn't make me better - I made myself better - but he helped me see the truth of things when everything around me was dark. 

6 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Who am I kidding ? I am already waiting for Lift and Gawx ship to be built 

It isn't built already?? *goes to get shipbuilding material* 

6 hours ago, Arch said:

whole interlude is a nod from Sanderson because he knows who seriously some us would take this, lol.

I agree - @FuzzyWordsmith discusses it further in their post - I'd love to discuss it further here in detail - but I need to re-read the chapter first! 

6 hours ago, Andy92 said:

I thought for a while Shallan might physically split into multiple people (like some weird Lightweaving savant thing, leaving Shallan for Adolin and Veil for Kaladin).

I think Sanderson prefers to be more subtle - he likes to take real-world situations and portray them through the lens of fantasy writing. His depictions of depression and anxiety in SA are very realistic. DID is less common in real-world but still a complete and definitive diagnosis with a specific constellation of symptoms.

6 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

But here's my call: Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin is a parallel to Navani/Gavilar/Dalinar.  Because Roshar and symmetry.  A literal repeat would involve Kaladin going to an increasingly dark place, Adolin getting assassinated somewhere around the end of book 5, Kaladin pulling things back together during the second arc, etc etc.  But true symmetry is about mirroring, not copying.  I'm not sure exactly what a mirror of that previous plotline would look like, but that's where I think this is going.  In which case it's not over yet.

So I agree with your premise of the mirroring (storms but I do - the reflections all across the Rosharan continent are incredible) but I have a pet hypothesis about how the mirror here will work;

So I agree that Adolin/Shallan mirrors Gavilar/Navani but I feel that Kaladin is like Dalinar as he is now, not as he was when he was younger. Kaladin won't go dark like Dalinar did. However, Adolin might. Adolin is "not the man [Dalinar] thought he was". Dalinar previously believed that Adolin was "a better man than [Dalinar] was". Now he probably still believes that - with good reason, but he can see Adolin's flaws.

Navani and Gavilar did not have the happiest of marriages, but it is unclear what the issues were. I don't think that there was a lack of affection however, given the Ketek she wrote for Gavilar's funeral;

"You, always about dreams. My soul weeps. Farewell, weeping soul. My dreams... about, always, You."

I suspect that she cared but perhaps he was distant - particularly towards the end. I interpret this ketek as being about the fact that Gavilar had always had dreams and that they had always consumed him, leaving little room or time for affection for his wife. Now, given Shallan's position as a KR, and also a tendency to 'dream big' as well as a cluster of mental health problems, Adolin might also end up feeling somewhat unloved. This might drive him dark like his father before him.

Kaladin, on the other hand, may mirror Dalinar's tendency to stay away from Navani - even to the point where she believed he "hated" her - Shallan may end up feeling like Navani did. On top of that, Adolin and Kaladin have a relationship that will likely mirror the relationship between Dalinar and Gavilar. Interestingly, Renarin and Adolin, despite being brothers, do not echo this relationship in the same way because Adolin has (at least until recently) felt sorry for Renarin. That is not something that either Gavilar or Dalinar seem to have felt for the other. Kaladin and Adolin have a relationship of equals and mutual respect - and whilst they have different skills, those skills complement one another.

Anyway, I have no specific evidence of this - mostly just a feeling.

5 hours ago, Dragos said:

Shallan can not achieve 4

Just a quick point, she is already at level 4 (WoB) she needs only one more truth to hit level 5. Otherwise your comments are valid.

5 hours ago, Dragos said:

That's why I think Adolin will die in the future book, maybe after he succeeds in reviving the sword and saving friends with her at a critical time.

I must admit that I am worried about this as well, although I am more concerned that he will die as a result of bad actions. This may not be inherently evil actions, so much as a kid of Kelsier from mistborn route. 

Spoiler

As in he will believe wholeheartedly in what he is doing is right but he ends up accidentally serving Odium like Kelsier serves Ruin. 

 

5 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

. My impression of her is that a "lie back and think of England" mentality in her as a girl eventually developed into full blown Stockholm Syndrome. But that's assuming it was meant to be taken negatively. It is entirely possible that that relationship is meant to be taken as an arranged marriage working out perfectly.

I agree in part here - I think that may be how it started, but I also think she had a ot of her father in her. Wistiow was a good man who cared for his people. I think Laral may have decided that in order to protect Hearthstone from the worst impulses of Roshone, that she had to marry him. Remember she is not some cowering petal when we see her in OB, she is strong and clearly has more authority than her husband (the guards will disobey Roshone for Kaladin, but not Laral). She has made her peace with her place and made the most out of it. Indeed, I think she likely enjoys her position now, even if she had to suffer to gain it. She has earned the respect of her people.

5 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

To refresh those who don't remember, she is reading a novel where a girl is in a triangle between Brightlord Vadam, a landholding brightlord to whom she has been betrothed, who is a man to provide sustenance and stability, and Brightlord Sterling, a simple, yet passionate man who is more grandstanding and emotional. The amusing thing is that you can plausibly paint Adolin and Kaladin as either of the two fictional men. If it was anyone else, I would dismiss it as amusing commentary. But to borrow the words of someone upthread, this is Brandon "I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages" Sanderson. I refuse to accept that something with such striking similarities was unintentional.

(Emphasis mine) I totally agree. I feel you could spend ages trying to figure which one is which and get nowehere! I also loved how the two ardents talking had different views on which one was better for the heroine of the story. This thread is the spiritual home of those two

I am planning on going back and re-reading this chapter fully and seeing if we can glean anything interesting from it. My personal feeling at this point is that it probably supports Shadolin over Shalladin because it suggests that once the decision is made, it is final.

5 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I am eager to see if anyone has any thoughts on my post. Sorry if I rambled.

It wasn't rambly at all - anyway, have you seen my posts - other than this one I mean.

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Shallan telling Adolin that Kaladin was insulting him was not being patronizing to him. Adolin doesn't know he's being insulted, and better to know you're being insulted than mistakenly think someone is being nice to you when they aren't. Having been in Adolin's place, someone telling me that wasn't patronizing - it was a sign they cared enough about me to defend me. Shallan's words there is also twofold, as right before she says that line, she is angry at Kaladin for being insulting to Adolin in a way he knows Adolin won't understand. This is also a rebuke to Kaladin that she knows what he's doing.

Do you not think? Just my interpretation then. I hate being called "dear" - it always sounds condescending. I also think she goes for Kaladin unneccessarily in this scene. Adolin doesn't need protecting from Kaladin - indeed it brushes right off him because he's confident enough in himself not to care. Not that it is ok to condone Kaladin being mean here - but she could have been more effective simply by saying it isnt necessary to tease Adolin then walking away - even joining Adolin. But she doesn't. On top of that she admits in WoR that she can't see the point in teasing Adolin because he doesn't really react. She likes getting a rise out of Kaladin. Also, it gives them an in-joke. One that has lasted 2 books now. I do not remember a similar in-joke between Adolin and Shallan.

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

On the other hand, Shallan constantly belittles and insults and condescends to Kaladin. She is classist, thinking nothing of using her lighteyed privilege. I don't want to go too long on this (I could write a dissertation) but a couple things. She refuses to even accept that Kaladin's life is quantifiably worse because he's a darkeyes (WoR 69); the boots scene where she literally robbed and bullied Kaladin and didn't feel the least bit bad about it until Kaladin directly confronted her later; the part where she insults Kaladin to make herself feel better (WoR chapter 70). It got to the point in WoR where I dreaded every time they had a scene together because Shallan was so consistent in directly insulting Kaladin and thinking she was hilarious, and then getting annoyed/hurt when someone disagreed that she was funny/clever. I took that dread into OB and thankfully their scenes weren't as bad as I was fearing. The fact that she thinks this is good flirting makes it even worse for me. If anyone treated a friend of mine the way Shallan treated Kaladin, I would tell them to run, especially if they're ever used the excuse "I was just making a joke".

She felt a bit bad about the boots but I agree she forgot about it too quickly. The thing is we need to ask why put this in? Why set up the conflict and why do it in this manner? BS could easily have done the scene without the boots to make sure there was a little bit of concern on Kaladin's side regarding whether Shallan is an imposter or not for the rest of WoR. But he didn't, he wanted there to be a direct conflict so that both Kaladin and Shallan would be forced to confront their prejudices regarding class. Remember, Kaladin is just as classist as Shallan - even in OB he struggles to cope with the idea that tenners are just ordinary people. Though I think he is basically passed that now, he has gone a long way in this setting since the en of tWoK.

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I'd probably do the same, and I think I'd want the compassion Adolin showed her in this case.

Oh I agree, and compassion for her is important, but compassion on its own won't help, and poorly applied compassio can be harmful. For example, someone with a major depressive disorder may have someone come in and do everything for them. This is sometimes necessary during a major episode, especially if the person with the depression is almost catatonic, but eventually they have to be made to do some things for themselves. Healing comes from within. If they keep having everything done for them, they won't ever become independent again. In Shallan's case, it is good to accept that she has fractured her personality - this is helpful for her. It is not helpful to treat those identities differently from each other however because that reinforces the boundaries.

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

For the moment, they are helping, and I don't think it does any good to force someone to give up a coping mechanism before they're ready just because we know it's unhealthy.

I agree you can't force it, but that doesn't mean you have to go along with it either - the one thing a therapist for DID is told to always remember is that their client is one person with multiple problems, not multiple people. Your behaviour towards them should be consistent regardless of which alter they wear during a session. This doesn't force the client to behave a ceryain way, but it does give them an expectation of how things are going to proceed.

4 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I have to disagree again. A person can be very attached to someone they also feel silly and giddy with.

Not sure if you read the link I sent regarding attachment? The thing is such feelings don't indicate attachment (although they don't negate it). Also, when you are attached you can be silly with your SO but not "feel" silly doing it - I suppose it is difficult to describe, and my own are feelings are my own (although my SO and I have discussed that we both feel this way, it is still anecdotal) but I don't feel any differently about my SO when we are discussing politics as to when we make in-jokes with each other. The jokes are silly - we are frequently silly in each others company but it doesn't "feel" silly, it just feels fun and warm and right. On the other hand, I am in a very different place to Shallan as my SO and I have known each other nearly 7 years. She has barely known Adolin 7 months.

 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

She felt a bit bad about the boots but I agree she forgot about it too quickly. The thing is we need to ask why put this in? Why set up the conflict and why do it in this manner? BS could easily have done the scene without the boots to make sure there was a little bit of concern on Kaladin's side regarding whether Shallan is an imposter or not for the rest of WoR. But he didn't, he wanted there to be a direct conflict so that both Kaladin and Shallan would be forced to confront their prejudices regarding class. Remember, Kaladin is just as classist as Shallan - even in OB he struggles to cope with the idea that tenners are just ordinary people. Though I think he is basically passed that now, he has gone a long way in this setting since the en of tWoK.

Eh, the boots have become a kind of in-joke for them. After the chasm scene, they made a real connection and I feel like, that this "forgetting about the boots scene" is a mutual thing. Kaladin's wedding gift shows that and Shallan genuinely laughs about it, what, I think, is exactly Kaladin thought she would do, which is why I adore the chasm scene so much. It has brought two very different people together and conveys, that even the most deeply rooted racism can be overcome through mutual respect.

[PhineasGage]

38 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It has brought two very different people together and conveys, that even the most deeply rooted racism can be overcome through mutual respect.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly

Humour can be a wonderful way to bridge gaps (not sure if I intend this to be a pun involving Bridge Four or not...) It helps people recognise their similarities rather than highlighting their differences. Of course it can also be used as a weapon to drive people apart, but neither Shallan nor Kaladin use it this way (much).

As a side point to the boots thing, I have a crazy idea I always think about with the boots - and that is to do a Cinderella comparison - although in this case the downtrodden slave/servant girl is actually Kaladin and Shallan is the 'handsome prince'.  I also love the way she suggests that Kaladin is "stripping her" and is taking her "virtue". In fact, the whole conversation gets rather earthy for a while. Poor Kaladin!

[Harbour]

The things like these are what Shadolin lacks of. Just some thoughts both characters share. Shallan dreams Kaladin will fly her to some highest place, and Kaladin dreams to show her how to really fly. That creates the image of some sort of mental connection for us, readers, even if characters doesnt have a conversation. OB full of these little bits.

Quote

Maybe when Brightlord Brooding-Eyes returned, he could fly her to another peak along the mountain chain.

Quote

Her heedless joy made him want to show her how to really fly.

He snapped himself back to the moment, banishing silly daydreams.

Maybe if BS would use Adolin as POV more often, we will see something similar from him. But untill now we just see what he says and stuff he says is kinda generic and not that romantic.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Harbour