[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

In other words, i don't think Brandon thought:  "Shallan and Adolin are going to be together, I want them to be together, but I can't make it too easy for them, so I'll throw a little plot with Kaladin and Shallan so that the end result feels more real."

This WoB makes me worry this is exactly what Brandon thinks.... however, as @Harbour points out, it could be the opposite (Adolin is the conflict not Kaladin.)

Quote

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

Please don’t tell me you’re going to do a love triangle between Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan.

BRANDON SANDERSON

(he phrased this very carefully) I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships.

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

This is my worst-case-scenario: that Brandon is secretly a bad writer and has been all along. I choose not to believe this (yet), so instead I choose to believe that what I interpreted as foreshadowing is, in fact, actual foreshadowing and not just poorly written dreck. 

I have read only about half of the Cosmere books (the rest will come once I get over OB!), but unfortunately I feel like what I've seen so far (Mistborn era 1...) does not show a lot of nuance in the romance department...  (Note I liked Vin/Elend together, I just thought the emotions behind their relationship could have been better developed.)

1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

Now I'm not saying that it can't be true but I just can't see how anyone can be satisfied with this no matter what "ship" they were rooting for.

THIS.  I like Adolin and Shallan together.  I think her and Kaladin have more potential, but I went into OB with an open mind between the two.  I left... just hating the whole storyline and putting it on my (unfortunately long) failed love triangle list. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Egomere]

45 minutes ago, Harbour said:

And all of us here talking about all these little or big details and hints aren't crazy. Its just the book really full of subtle details and hints. But even if not to look at little details, but at the whole picture, i would never call Shalladin/Shadolin resolution perfectly looking.

I prefer the term differently minded than crazy (which we all could be) 'cos we might be seeing things that aren't there.

BS is a master of foreshadowing and subtle hints about all sorts - all of which were seemingly ignored in OB. After that beautifully brilliant Chasm scene we got no development on any front of the 'triangle' except Shallan and Adolin hanging out and occasionally drinking as Veil.

Now I am worried about this being the end; because if Book 4 is set one year later if anything monumental had happened we won't be seeing the actual events on the potential fallout (which is bad). Add in BS penchant for arranged marriages turning out super means I fear we're going to be left feeling unsatisfied for good. Maybe I'll feel better after a second readthrough - will def. be checking with toothcomb all Shallan / Kaladin / Adolin interactions (any number of).

I will also maintain that 'Shallan popped' could be more meaningful than before (even though it had nothing to do with Adolin or Kaladin and was in scene with Jasnah.

edit below

BRANDON SANDERSON

(he phrased this very carefully) I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships.

 

In this case he also failed though because other than Shallan / Veil going 'ooooo mr broody eyes so dreamy and solid like wind rock' there was no CONFLICT - not even a macho growling scene between Adolin and Kaladin about who loves her more or whatever.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Egomere
added words.

[Harbour he/him]

26 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

@Harbour could you perhaps explain further because I don't quite get your meaning here? Also, could you tell me when BS said that and at what event? I, unfortunately, haven't kept up too much on last week's events ad what is being said there.

Maybe i failed to be clear.

I took the scene where Adolin told Shallan that he gives up on her and started to throw the arguements at her. Him noticing HOW both Shallan and Kaladin looked at each other was among these arguements. That led Adolin to realization that Kaladin and Shallan should be together.

In her turn Shallan started to convince him that everything is all right.

In my opinion the very need of conviction that she "doesnt love Kaladin, or its just the Veil who loves Kaladin or whatever" indicates that Shadolin resolution wasnt perfect and well done. In the 100% healthy relationships there is no an attempts of giving up on the partner and conviction that "i have nothing with the guy you saw me with yeasterday"

And week or so after that scene they get married. Week after Adolin tried to break up with Shallan. Shadolin doesnt look solid id say. Its foundation doesnt look solid.

On other ship Kaladin think that he doesnt like how Adolin and Shallan looks together.

I took all of that, summed up and made an emphasis on the fact that scenes i described were written by our beloved Brandon Sanderson. I meant, if he wrote the scenes that way, then he wanted them to look that way.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Harbour

[mariapapadia she/her]

Pff... I should get a life or do something productive instead of being consumed by this forum. But.. here we go. 

@SLNC Oh! Firstly I'm happy to hear I influenced you in sharing such a personal story. Secondly, I know how hard it must've been and I am glad in the end everything worked out well. 

Since we are on the sharing business.. I wasn't sure if this was the right place to share this, but this is a shipping thread with people who are too emotionaly involved for their own good in the love life of fictional characters, so I don't think it will be the most wierd thing to happen. 

Spoiler

The reason why I am so against the way this turned out and I am so touchy with when it comes to mental health issues and those people being better because they are in a relationship , is because I was in that position not once, but twice. Both of my exes had severe depression, drug problems and all the fun things that come with that. I have what you could say.. a Pattern  It's draining to be with someone who has depression . Especially if you have a lot of emphathy (and I don't say that topaint myself in a good light), because you can see and feel a lot fo the pain the other person is going through and is driving you mad when you can't do anything to help . I started feeling really helpless and I had a lot of Kaladin moments when I felt responsible, I though that I was supposed to do something to save them. Everything ends up revolving around the depression. Is it a good day today? Can you get out of bed? Then it's a good day for the relationship as well. Is it a bad day? Then you have to make sure nothing extreme happens, be careful what you say to not trigger other things, check that everyone is still safe and sound and live with a constant worry. It's a vicious cycle. It took me 6 and a half years and lots of headaches, to come to the conlusion that no ammount of love, care, pleading, screaming, listening, understanding, theraphy or anything else will change something if the other person doesn't feel like they deserve it or they're not willing to accept it and work on themselves. 

My ex wanted us to get married, because I was good for him, I stabilazied him, I was "making the darkness go away"(literally those words. I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the cheesiness), I was always there for him, I saw " the real him and accepted it", bla bla.. Basically all the reasons Shallan told Adolin in her big speach. Well.. despite those things, it didn't work out. For a relationship to work you have to be partners, to share and take care of one another. It's not only one way. Most of the times when you are in a relationship you become really selfless and you want to see your partner happy and you confuse that with doing everything only for them. But one of the most precious gifts you can give them is to love yourself, to take care of yourself. It's really easy to lose track of that. in order for everything to be ok between 2, you have to be ok as an individual. As @PhineasGage well said, you can't expect them to carry you all the time, instead of walking side by side. 

This is where my problem comes in the resolution of Shallan choosing Adolin. Shallan doesn't know herself, Shallan doesn't love herself and to look for validation through Adolin is doing both of them a disservice. I don't want to see Shallan loving Adolin, I want to see her loving herself, forgiving herself, finding herself and AFTER that she can be with Adolin/Kaladin whoever she wants and I wouldn't have anything to object. While those question marks still exist I don't think it's right to be with someone, as much as you love them or you feel they are good for you.

Works both ways. I wouldn't have liked Kaladin to be with Shallan because she "makes the darkness go away". Most of the time when it comes to depression, the darkness will never go away, but you have to learn to accept it and learn to live with it. I feel like Kaladin is somehow on that path and maybe soon he will be able to be with someone. But before that he has to master it on his own. 

 

16 hours ago, Greywatch said:

....

I mostly agree with some of the arguments you make in favour of Shallan and Adolin and it's true that they were going on a good path. But for me it felt like they were in the middle of their journey and they were teleported to the destination, skipping the second half and all the potential struggles and growth that would've come to it. 

 

Also as a general thought and a response to no one in particular, but some things I saw here and there. One can't say there wasn't any trace of a potential for Kaladin and Shallan, because it's very heavily implied with the chasm scene( + others)  and the poorly adressed thoughts in OB that there could've been something to explore there. That the author and implicitly the characters, choose to ignore it in the end, it's another story. But the end of WoR left us with a promise not for Shalladin, but for conflict, that was not delivered.

I don't know where I'm going with this post, but.. yeah 

ALSO! I really don;t think we'll see more of this in other books. It was pretty clear from Kaladin's side as well ("I don't think I ever loved her"), plus the wedding and everything else, that this subplot it's pretty much done. Even if we would see something more, I would find it distasteful to poke at things once they are married, when you had all the chances to do it before. I don't find that  scenario to help anyone or bring something to the story, but would only produce drama and transform it into a soap opera. Plus there are other things happening for this to become an actual subplot Let's be real, if Brandon didn't do anything when he had it on the table, he won't do it after he wrapped it up. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

1 minute ago, Harbour said:

Maybe i failed to be clear.

I took the scene where Adolin told Shallan that he gives up on her and started to throw the arguements at her. Him noticing HOW both Shallan and Kaladin looked at each other was among these arguements. That led Adolin to realizing that Kaladin and Shallan should be together.

In her turn Shallan started to convince him that everything is all right.

In my opinion the very need of conviction that she "dont love Kaladin, or its just the Veil who loves Kaladin or whatever" indicates that Shadolin resolution wasnt perfect and well done. In the 100% healthy relationships there is no an attempts of giving up on the partner and conviction that "i have nothing with the guy you saw me with yeasterday"

And week or so after that scene they get married. Week after Adolin tried to break up with Shallan. Shadolin doesnt look solid id say. Its foundation doesnt look solid.

On other ship Kaladin think that he doesnt like how Adolin and Shallan looks together.

I took all of that, summed up and made an emphasis on the fact that scenes i described were written by our beloved Brandon Sanderso. I meant, if he wrote the scenes that way, then he wanted them to look that way.

Ah, now I get it thank you! And, yeah, I definitely want to believe nothing is over as well, and our discussion here kind of supports that. In any case, I think I'll set up my self to be plesantly surprised if it's not over, meaning I'll propably try to convince my self that what we got is the resolution. This, or that nothing is concluded. My thoughts on the matter change pretty much hourly. Regardless, thank you for your response.

[Ailvara]

4 minutes ago, Egomere said:

I prefer the term differently minded than crazy (which we all could be) 'cos we might be seeing things that aren't there.

BS is a master of foreshadowing and subtle hints about all sorts - all of which were seemingly ignored in OB. After that beautifully brilliant Chasm scene we got no development on any front of the 'triangle' except Shallan and Adolin hanging out and occasionally drinking as Veil.

Now I am worried about this being the end; because if Book 4 is set one year later if anything monumental had happened we won't be seeing the actual events on the potential fallout (which is bad). Add in BS penchant for arranged marriages turning out super means I fear we're going to be left feeling unsatisfied for good. Maybe I'll feel better after a second readthrough - will def. be checking with toothcomb all Shallan / Kaladin / Adolin interactions (any number of).

I will also maintain that 'Shallan popped' could be more meaninful than before (even though it had nothing to do with Adolin or Kaladin and was in scene with Jasnah.

edit below

BRANDON SANDERSON

(he phrased this very carefully) I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships.

 

In this case he also failed though because other than Shallan / Veil going 'ooooo mr broody eyes so dreamy and solid like wind rock' there was no CONFLICT - not even a macho growling scene between Adolin and Kaladin about who loves her more or whatever.

I think this kind of scenes is what he meant by classic triangles (which he doesn't like). So the conflict part, I'd expect that in any other shape than this macho growling  

But I agree, that we haven't really had any decent conflict,  so I hope we'll get some in next book(s). Mostly in Shallan's, maybe Adolin's head, I think, not outright fight for a girl, nope. 

[Egomere]

30 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Pff... I should get a life or do something productive instead of being consumed by this forum. But.. here we go. 

Since we are on the sharing business.. I wasn't sure if this was the right place to share this, but this is a shipping thread with people who are too emotionaly involved for their own good in the love life of fictional characters, so I don't think it will be the most wierd thing to happen.
 

Firstly : Nonsense, life is really overrated (and involves having to go outside and socialise with people...)

Secondly : the same for @SLNC very brave for both of you to be sharing. You have my respect.

Thirdly : As everyone on this thread is heavily involved with fictional characters I deem that means it's perfectly normal (and therefore not bad at all not all not sirree!) and anyone not emotional involved is actually the crazy one as the social norm (on this forum) is to actually be heavily involved.

hmm i might have lost myself then but I know how my corkscrew mind works so that's to be expected.

@Ailvara Yes I guess you are correct about the cliche macho stuff being what he dislikes but it's just I would have prefered that to the complete lack we actually got.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Egomere

[Guest]

Regarding Kaladin's acceptance that he feels? Doesn't surprise me. He has alwas been pushing himself down, regarding romantic relationships. There are parts in OB, where he tells himself, that Tarah maybe was right to leave him, when he brings Shallan the water.

Quote

Storms. It felt like Syl and his emotions were double-teaming him. One smiled with encouragement, while the other whispered terrible things. That he’d always be alone. That Tarah had been right to leave him.

He was always ready to be let down, so he just accepted it, but once again his emotions tell the truth.

Quote

Adolin lifted the cover, peeking in. “So . . . anything about swords in it?”

“Oh hush,” she said, and batted his arm in a playful—and somewhat nauseating—way.

Yes, it was uncomfortable to watch the two of them. Kaladin liked them both . . . just not together. He forced himself to look around the room, which was occupied by lighteyes trying to drink away the sounds of the storm.

Ah. Good old jealousy.

[DeployParachute]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He was always ready to be let down, so he just accepted it, but once again his emotions tell the truth.

Quote

Storms. It felt like Syl and his emotions were double-teaming him. One smiled with encouragement, while the other whispered terrible things. That he’d always be alone. That Tarah had been right to leave him.

It is probably good to note that Kaladin fails to realize that Tarah did not choose to leave him.  It was in fact he himself who chose something over her: his men, his war.  With regards to Shallan, he also made a choice, a choice to not pursue her.  The fact that he is currently alone lies as much on his own decisions as it does the circumstances surrounding them.

Kaladin's honor and his loyalty to Adolin may have contributed to him deciding not to explore his feelings, but he still made a choice not to do so.  Additionally, Shallan may have felt pressure from the causal, and from Jasnah, Navani, and Adolin to meet the expectations of it, but again, she still made her choice.  

I think we could discuss for a long time whether these choices were really valid choices given the circumstances each of them faced at the time, but in the end, that's life.  Circumstances are going to dictate what choices are presented to us (or what choices we perceive to be present at the time).  And we are responsible for the consequences of them.  Just like Shallan and Kaladin must accept the results of their choices, and move forward.  

That is what I hope comes out of this for them in the future.  "We could have done things different, we could have resolved some of our feelings earlier.  But we didn't, and it has led us to some interesting, perhaps dark places.  but we accept that, we own that, and maybe we can move forward with that knowledge and acceptance"

[Ailvara]

14 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Regarding Kaladin's acceptance that he feels? Doesn't surprise me. He has alwas been pushing himself down, regarding romantic relationships. There are parts in OB, where he tells himself, that Tarah maybe was right to leave him, when he brings Shallan the water.

He was always ready to be let down, so he just accepted it, but once again his emotions tell the truth.

Ah. Good old jealousy.

That's a great catch. I automatically assumed, that if Brandon didn't make him step down because it is simply over, then he might have in order not to drag this in Kaladin's head for his and our sake, and if he was to develop feelings for Shallan, it would be later and symmetrical to get development. But this is a much better justification. 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Kaladin's honor and his loyalty to Adolin may have contributed to him deciding not to explore his feelings, but he still made a choice not to do so.  Additionally, Shallan may have felt pressure from the causal, and from Jasnah, Navani, and Adolin to meet the expectations of it, but again, she still made her choice.  

I think we could discuss for a long time whether these choices were really valid choices given the circumstances each of them faced at the time, but in the end, that's life.  Circumstances are going to dictate what choices are presented to us (or what choices we perceive to be present at the time).  And we are responsible for the consequences of them.  Just like Shallan and Kaladin must accept the results of their choices, and move forward.  

Absolutely, but I'm constantly thinking about what could be the source of their conflict in the relationship and it then all comes back down to Kaladin. The way Veil acted at the end of OB makes me feel like, that she will keep having eyes for him and Shallan isn't really fully in control of her either, testified by the fact, that she is becoming Veil in front of Adolin. The way she phrases, that it "kinda works out for them both [Veil and Shallan]." regarding their relationship to Adolin makes me think, that she doesn't have control over it. Adolin now knows that Veil has eyes for Kaladin. I think, that he will be even more sensitive to it now than before.

I don't see another point of conflict... At least not right now.

Though the timeskip might alleviate all of that...

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC

[AubreyWrites she/her]

So this question is most likely answered somewhere and I just don't know where- do we know if BS keeps an eye on these forums? And if so, has he ever admitted to adjusting his plans according to what he has found? 

[Egomere]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Absolutely, but I'm constantly thinking about what could be the source of their conflict in the relationship and it then all comes back down to Kaladin. The way Veil acted at the end of OB makes me feel like, that she will keep having eyes for him and Shallan isn't really fully in control of her either, testified by the fact, that she is becoming Veil in front of Adolin. The way she phrases, that it "kinda works out for them both [Veil and Shallan]." regarding their relationship to Adolin makes me think, that she doesn't have control over it. Adolin now knows that Veil has eyes for Kaladin. I think, that he will be even more sensitive to it now then before.

I don't see another point of conflict... At least not right now.

Though the timeskip might alleviate all of that...

Well BS could be saying due to his dislike of traditional triangles (poor triangles - does he have something against 3 sided shapes?... well angling away from that tangent) the conflict in the relationship could be the three personalties of Shallan all bickering and dickering with each other about their life with Adolin and the conflict is now internal rather than external...

But I'm still unhappy about the journey so far... (bet nobody could tell that though).

[Harbour he/him]

Btw there will be beta reader AMA on reddit next Tuesday. Gonna ask some questions about their opinion on this matter.

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

So this question is most likely answered somewhere and I just don't know where- do we know if BS keeps an eye on these forums? And if so, has he ever admitted to adjusting his plans according to what he has found? 

Oh dear, if he changes the plot based on readers' opinions, I hope he reads 17th shard, not reddit. Or we'll all doomed. 

4 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Btw there will be beta reader AMA on reddit next Tuesday. Gonna ask some questions about their opinion on this matter.

Thank you. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

9 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

So this question is most likely answered somewhere and I just don't know where- do we know if BS keeps an eye on these forums? And if so, has he ever admitted to adjusting his plans according to what he has found? 

From what I have seen here and there, he doesn't look on this forum, but he is mostly active on Reddit. Also, I've seen multiple videos/interviews of him saying that he won't let himself be influenced by the general opinion, but he will write the story as he feels right, even if some people might dissagree with some of the choices he makes. 

[Ailvara]

2 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

From what I have seen here and there, he doesn't look on this forum, but he is mostly active on Reddit. Also, I've seen multiple videos/interviews of him saying that he won't let himself be influenced by the general opinion, but he will write the story as he feels right, even if some people might dissagree with some of the choices he makes. 

Uff, that's good. Otherwise we would need to finally compose this essay from all goodness here and put it on reddit.

(I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do that anyway)

[Harbour he/him]

10 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Uff, that's good. Otherwise we would need to finally compose this essay from all goodness here and put it on reddit.

(I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do that anyway)

If someone would gather all usefull info we stormed out here, systematize it and put it as some sort of short essay on reddit, that would actually be great.

Not gonna ask anyone to do this though, its quite a large chunk of work.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

23 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

From what I have seen here and there, he doesn't look on this forum, but he is mostly active on Reddit. Also, I've seen multiple videos/interviews of him saying that he won't let himself be influenced by the general opinion, but he will write the story as he feels right, even if some people might dissagree with some of the choices he makes. 

Hmm- yeah I figured he doesn't write to the whims of the masses but I do wonder if he looks on some of these comments (not necessarily this thread of course) and thinks "huh- I didn't realize I was doing this or that when I wrote it this way it I didn't realize it was coming across this or that way" 

I'm sure a lot of stuff he does is foreshadowing and little Easter eggs for those crazy obsessives (Points to self) but no writer is perfect and no work is ever completely perfect so it stands to reason that we fans and readers can take something and totally run with it in a direction he didn't intend us to go. I just wondered if he monitored forums like this to see if we all go the way he intended us to or if comments bring up stuff he hadn't actively intended or thought about. 

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Hmm- yeah I figured he doesn't write to the whims of the masses but I do wonder if he looks on some of these comments (not necessarily this thread of course) and thinks "huh- I didn't realize I was doing this or that when I wrote it this way it I didn't realize it was coming across this or that way" 

I'm sure a lot of stuff he does is foreshadowing and little Easter eggs for those crazy obsessives (Points to self) but no writer is perfect and no work is ever completely perfect so it stands to reason that we fans and readers can take something and totally run with it in a direction he didn't intend us to go. I just wondered if he monitored forums like this to see if we all go the way he intended us to or if comments bring up stuff he hadn't actively intended or thought about. 

I highly doubt he can change big plot points since it's all outlined (and I think Shallan getting divorced or not would be something essential to her character development and unable to be changed?), but I think he would process feedback on how those plot points are presented?  The general sense here is not that the destination was the problem, but instead the journey 

On another note, when I finished the book I felt insane about how let down I felt and like I was wayyyyy too attached to the romance subplot.  Being able to process that on this forum has been very helpful, especially since I know I'm not alone!  It's helping me appreciate all the good things about the book.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[kari-no-sugata]

46 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Btw there will be beta reader AMA on reddit next Tuesday. Gonna ask some questions about their opinion on this matter.

You say it's for beta readers, so does that mean it will be private / closed to public readers? (I presume so but I haven't heard of such things before...)

[Guest]

Just now, kari-no-sugata said:

You say it's for beta readers, so does that mean it will be private / closed to public readers? (I presume so but I haven't heard of such things before...)

[PhineasGage]

I go offline for a few hours and come back to pages of comments.... It's awesome!

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yes, its this nuanced writing regarding them, that I so much enjoy. I really hope, that this wasn't the end of it. It is so much better and deeply moving and meaningful than backrubs and "without you I fade"

And though, we didn't have much of it in OB, even their dialogue is so much better.

I agree - I am about to start my 3rd read - I have the image of obsessive fan to keep up - and this is the one where I'll make my first proper notes which reference other events in the book and look for patterns. Based on WoR it will probably take me 5 or 6 reads before I am comfortable that I've found everything, then I'll probably go back and read tWoK and WoR to see what jumps out as having changed in the light of the additional information from OB. I suspect, that there is more nuanced conversation and interaction than I have previously noticed - certainly there was more on my 2nd readthrough than I noticed on my first. Sometimes the interactions are very well hidden.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Wait.

Wait, had that been Veil?

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Kaladin didn't seem to notice... How should he? To him you've always been genuine, Shallan. To Adolin, not. Of course, Adolin would recognize "you", when it is the only way he ever truly knew you.

sigh

So here, I got the impression that it wasn't Veil, it was Shallan (as a whole) but she automatically assigns the "Kaladin is a hottie" feeling to the Veil mask. She is mentally calling herself Shallan here then decides it must be Veil talking after all.... And also, I feel you - *joins in with the sigh*

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So basically, Veil wants to flirt with Kaladin and tease him and considers Adolin to be boring in comparison. Shallan disagrees.

I read this differently. I felt that "Shallan" feels uncomfortable here because she knows that it isn't really right to be thinking about your fiancee in this way. I mean, she basically called Adolin boring - which he is - albeit in a nice, comfortable, safe way. But whilst you may not always find your life partner exciting - it hardly leads to a feeling of hope if you find them boring.

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I just made a mistake of reading some comments and reviews on reddit, tor etc, where everyone is so sure that this is a wonderful end to this love story, Shallan had found herself and this is all so true and happy.

Lol, there is a bubble for everything. I make an effort to read papers and watch news channels that are not in my personal bubble from a politics perspective, but I think its ok to have a bubble for shipping

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm going to be looking for more of these lapses in book 4, because I suspect they're foreshadowing a similar confrontation with her spren, like Kal had with Syl

So I agree it is worth looking for, but I think it has already happened. As far as we know, only two characters have killed, then successfully resurrected their spren - Kaladin and Shallan. Shallan doesn't need to have another period like Kaladin had in WoR because she had one for most of her adolescence.

3 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

There are just so many individual things that Brandon has added to these books for Shallan and Kaladin, that I have a very hard time believing that they were there solely to provide some meaningless friction, and quick decision made over the course of a paragraph (rush into things much, Shallan?) so that she and Adolin can live "happily ever after".  

I agree - and the more time I've spent here, the more I feel this way. I also feel much less "meh" about the "resolution" of OB. I don't think we'll see a continuation of the "love triangle" element because the conflicts will change as a result of the marriage but I do think that there will be more conflict between Shallan and Adolin which may make things interesting. Kaladin is going to stay sway because he likes and respects Adolin and he is that kind of person anyway. He also doesn't believe that he deserves to be happy in a relationship yet. 

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Wit told Shallan she has to forgive herself but there doesn't feel a particular moment when this happens. Jasnah once does have a thought (regarding Renarin) about how life can be harder but much more fulfilling when you find the courage to choose and that could apply to Shallan as well here. It probably would have helped to see more of Adolin's feelings for Shallan in his POVs (there's surprisingly little - there was more in WoR)

I agree and this also echoes what Jasnah writes in her book (Shallan reads it in one of her flashback scenes in WoR but I dont have the book on me atm) regarding the power of a woman to choose her role, and that it should not be prescribed to her.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

@PhineasGage I think it is time for another essay

@SLNC what makes you think I haven't started it

2 hours ago, Matt Snow said:

When I finished the book I didn't really see the love triangle being "resolved", so much as Kaladin saying he's out because of the marriage (which I think is exactly what he would do),

I agree - his sense of honour wouldn't let him deliberately ad to any conflict between Shallan and Adolin. If Kaladin does cause conflict between the newlyweds, he will likely do so by accident - either by simply being him of because Shallan is a hot mess and doesn't actually let go of her musings over him.

1 hour ago, Egomere said:

In this case he also failed though because other than Shallan / Veil going 'ooooo mr broody eyes so dreamy and solid like wind rock' there was no CONFLICT - not even a macho growling scene between Adolin and Kaladin about who loves her more or whatever.

There was conflict, it was simply that the conflict lay within Shallan herself. We didn;t need another Twilight (although I should be honest that I haven't read them or seen the films so all i know is that there is a triangle). Adolin and Kaladin need to be friends - you can't go putting your romantic leanings ahead of the safety of the world - particularly in Kaladin's case. 

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

I took all of that, summed up and made an emphasis on the fact that scenes i described were written by our beloved Brandon Sanderson. I meant, if he wrote the scenes that way, then he wanted them to look that way

I agree - and I am assuming that by the end of the 5th book, we'll understand at least some of what this arc was trying to achieve.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Pff... I should get a life or do something productive instead of being consumed by this forum. But.. here we go. 

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Since we are on the sharing business..

Firstly - noooo don't leave! also, the fact that we are getting sucked in by this forum and thread.... does that make us the void? Are we voidbringers???

Secondly, thank you for sharing. It was very interesting to see your side of the story. I am the depressive one in my relationship and it is really important to be able to see the other person's perspective. In my experience of depression, I ended up feeling guilty for things that weren't my fault, but lost sight of the things I could control and didn't feel appropriately guilty for them. Luckily, my SO and I figured out how to be  communicative so he knows that he is not responsible for my mood changes, and I know that he isn't putting pressure on me to be "well" for the sake of the relationship - it takes a huge amount of pressure off us both.  You said something about learning to love yourself, and I think it is one of the most important things I've read on this forum. 

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Works both ways. I wouldn't have liked Kaladin to be with Shallan because she "makes the darkness go away". Most of the time when it comes to depression, the darkness will never go away, but you have to learn to accept it and learn to live with it. I feel like Kaladin is somehow on that path and maybe soon he will be able to be with someone. But before that he has to master it on his own

I agree - although it is ok to feel lighter when you are with the one you love, it isnt right to rely on them for it and you need to find ways to feel lighter without them as well.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

ALSO! I really don;t think we'll see more of this in other books. It was pretty clear from Kaladin's side as well ("I don't think I ever loved her"), plus the wedding and everything else, that this subplot it's pretty much done. Even if we would see something more, I would find it distasteful to poke at things once they are married, when you had all the chances to do it before.

So I disagree a little here. Kaladin is stepping back - but we saw him do almost the same thing at the end of WoR. Kaladin has made his choice here sure, but there are 2 other people in this mess and they have agency of their own. If Shallan magically ends up single and healthy of mind, do we really think Kaladin isn't going to go there?

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

He has alwas been pushing himself down, regarding romantic relationships. There are parts in OB, where he tells himself, that Tarah maybe was right to leave him, when he brings Shallan the water.

Agreed - he needs to be able to manage his own moods better rather than relying on others to bring him up. I think Tarah was probably very good for him, but in a way I think she left because she was tired of having to carrying him when he was low. If he'd been able to step away from the battlefield, she likely had hope that he'd be able to put his past down and find light on his own.

40 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Btw there will be beta reader AMA on reddit next Tuesday. Gonna ask some questions about their opinion on this matter.

I'm going to try and remember to watch for this but can you post their responses here too please? 

27 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

(I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do that anyway)

Lol, I'm game. Although it would take a while. 

8 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

I just wondered if he monitored forums like this to see if we all go the way he intended us to or if comments bring up stuff he hadn't actively intended or thought about. 

I would doubt it - criticism of one's art is inevitable but why open yourself up to the pain of having people tear your work apart. Particularly i small details. I mean, based on whats been written here, we all actually loved the book as a whole, we love the characters and we love Stormlight and other cosmere novels in general. We aren't happy with a single facet of it and have spent... 16 pages telling each other so! 

[Darvys]

Would they be at liberty to share Brandon's response to their feedback and the things that were changed as a result ? If not, i don't think it'll serve us for this issue.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

agree - his sense of honour wouldn't let him deliberately ad to any conflict between Shallan and Adolin. If Kaladin does cause conflict between the newlyweds, he will likely do so by accident - either by simply being him of because Shallan is a hot mess and doesn't actually let go of her musings over him.

Yes!

Everything is telling me, that it should be resolved, but it doesn't feel that way.

Veil's attitude, Shallan's decisionmaking, the damnation sapphire gown, after Moash killed Jez, Kaladin's order's patron, with a dagger, explictly discribed as having an sapphire gem. I know, that it is common knowledge, that the sapphire is the Windrunner gem/color, but Brandon absolutely had to make that clear with thr Moash scene. All these things.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SLNC